Koopa VS Kefka -- The Endless Tournament ends! Who took home the prize?

[Wots All This Then?]

Players are strongly responsible for their own activity in this game. I won't be prodding any more than gently this phase especially, since there's no vote, and since absent players will be handled by forfeiting their Match.

K.

I would be contributing but all that's going on now is mechanics talk. I don't really have anything to say about that so for now I'm lurking.

Not K. Go dig through the thread. Give me something on kantrip and RR. Yea that'll be cool for now. something more substantial then just "this is my read", I want quotes to support that read.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

What pattern?

We can go back to the same place or choose somewhere else. Scum is only gonna get an accurate poison if they are in a hotel room with others and play martyr for their team.

Ryu, you know nothing is ever truly random. Think how many extra votes whoever is at the top of a local ballot no one cares about gets.


Give me a hypothetical situation where having our food choices outed in thread each day greatly helps town. Because if you can't think of something besides what's already been outlined wrt suspecting someone directed you to a poisoned restaurant (which doesn't require full divulsion of information) I'm going to have to say this motion is dead in the water entirely.

 

[pawndidater2]

Not K. Go dig through the thread. Give me something on kantrip and RR. Yea that'll be cool for now. something more substantial then just "this is my read", I want quotes to support that read.

Oh yea I was supposed to be reading Kantrip.

 

[Kantrip]

Hey sorry guys. Probably should have called V/LA but I've been short on time to sit down and look at anything with this game.

That said, I now have read through the rules more thoroughly and understand everything! I also have sense of purpose where before I felt no motivation to try to figure things out!

The Removal mechanic is very dangerous but also very beneficial if we can pull it off. We should only use it if we have TWO mafia members we are damn sure about.

Why two? Because we need the first mafia member we are sure about for the tourney cop at the end of this cycle. This mechanic is not one we choose, it happens no matter what. We want the tourney cop in the tournament, because it means a confirmed town slot in the game, but it also means a lot more than that as a result. I'm about to explain something that makes having the tourney cop in the bracket a HUGE BOON.

The tourney cop is MOD-confirmed town with no exceptions.

This is huge, and will yield us at least one free scummer just for having him in the bracket (in addition to the scummer he'll remove to make sure he gets in the bracket.)

If the tourney cop gets in the bracket, we make sure every one of his opponents purposely loses to him. I don't give a **** if that goes against some personal win-con (looking at you, Ruy) or if you don't like the idea of throwing a match. The tourney cop making his way through the tournament means we keep track of a confirmed townie. If, at any point, he loses a match, we'll know his opponent didn't listen and we can boot their *** next phase.

How do we ensure the tourney cop wins if he can't cheat, though?

Well, we know which colour of moves beat the others, and we have a built-in prisoner's dilemma style mechanic to give people an edge without cheating.Anyone who goes against the tourney cop in cycle 2 will choose their main, the tourney cop will choose their counterpick, and the two will communicate so that the tourney cop uses moves that beat the moves their opponent uses. Failure to comply and allow the tourney cop to beat you will mean an instant scum status in thread.

As I said, huge incentive to get the tourney cop into the tournament.

So we need to get at least one scummer that we're very certain about, and NOT USE THE REMOVAL MECHANIC ON HIM.

If we can get a second scummer we feel certain (and I mean CERTAIN) about, we can use the removal mechanic. It is too big a risk to treat it like a normal lynch or use it on a hunch.

That said, we still do want to find at least one scummer. The best way to do this is always to form reads as normal, which means everyone should be cooperating in thread and trying to be helpful and trying to scumhunt. Refusal to cooperate means people will think you're scum. While they can't lynch you for it, they can do a whole lot of other stuff to **** you over. Having everyone being vocal in thread makes it easier for the tourney cop to know which matches he wants to review. But when the tourney cop finds a cheater, we don't know whether it was a maf cheater or a town cheater, so that doesn't help us cement our reads. How can we find a scummer and be certain about it?

I'm going to repeat what I said earlier.

We should cheat against our scumreads.

If we cheat against our scumreads, it puts pressure on the scum team. They are suddenly forced to try to play townie in thread so people don't think they are scum. If people think they are scum, they will cheat against them. This forces mafia to use banned moves in order to win. But even better than that, is if you cheat against a mafia member and they use their banned moves style of cheating, you will lose even though you cheated. That makes it pretty damn clear that your opponent was mafia. If we agree to cheat against our scumreads, and we happen to be correct, that makes cheating a dangerous choice for them.

The tourney cop can find people cheating and make them auto-lose their match, as well. This choice isn't that crucial and is really up to the tourney cop to choose who they think best.


After saying all this, I realized I've adapted a playstyle of sitting on my stances and doing ****-all, but that's really a bad idea. Attitudes like soup's in this game are toxic towards our success as a collective town, and people treating the game in that manner should be viewed as scummy. There is no excuse for not trying to scumhunt, because we do have advantages at our disposal for catching scum should we get people we dislike in thread. From there, we can confirm them as scum, and even REMOVE THEM FROM THE GAME should we get lucky. We also have the ability to communicate with the tourney cop in the second cycle on which matches are good choices to review to kick the rest of the maf team out of the tournament. Even more incentive to develop scumreads. There is no excuse.

 

[Kantrip]

Early on you gave a weird vibe stance on me. I want you to talk about that, and why you haven't followed up with that.

This is a very typical Ran question that actually makes me like him this game.

 

[Kantrip]

I don't think he's switched it. He's just kinda, sitting on it? He doesn't anything with it let alone progressed it. I don't believe Kantrip would do this as town. I need to a full re-read later.

Explain why I would sit on a stance as scum and not as town.

Explain why sitting on a stance can't be creditied to laziness.

Explain why you act all "there's no reason to do anything" and then you start doing stuff? This post from you is content and you even say you "need to reread." Why? I thought there was no point in your POV?

I don't care about soup's AtE anymore, these contradictions in his play are pretty bad, and him acting all defeatist doesn't remedy that in the slightest. Scumread on soupy boy

 

[Kantrip]

I ate Chinese, what did everyone else eat?

Red Ruy jumping out with this information (I don't think it's beneficial to share but w/e) is townie of him. He's been very willing to cooperate and I like that in Ruy's town play.

 

[Kantrip]

Would like to bring this up again as it's going to be kind of important soon.

What do yall think about it?

I personally dislike Gheb coming in with side comments on the setup and repeating things that have already been discussed. It really feels like Gheb is not reading and proposing stuff we've already discussed and I dislike him for it. Wish he'd delve into something helpful.

 

[Kantrip]

Don't see the point of that. As far as I can see, nobody has any reason to lie about it.




@bold

why?

Also really dislike that Gheb doesn't see the merit in claiming if we cheated or not.

It is a great idea and everyone should be open with whether or not they chose to cheat during their matches.

 

[Kantrip]

Interesting. I think we also need to keep an eye on room swaps too. I make nothing of Super Fab joining our room and PJB joining Room 1 but I'm incredibly intrigued by Kantrip joining in the room with Ryker in it.

@Nabe: Can you prod him? Or something? Ryker has yet to post and I'm tempted to assume he's scum.

I want to be in a room with people I'm trying to get a read on, and I disliked soup when I requested the switch (as I do again).

 

[Kantrip]

PS: If the tourney cop makes his public guess at a member of mafia at the end of cycle 1 and guesses wrong, I want everyone acutely aware that we still get a clear out of that.

And you BETTER let that clear move up in bracket any way you can if you're in match with them, even if you don't think they're as strong a player as you, because they've literally been mod-cleared at that point as town.

This is a very good point. Even if the tourney cop doesn't make it in, their guess does (and will be confirmed as town).

Everything I said about letting the tourney cop beat you applies to this clear player as well.

 

[pawndidater2]

We should cheat against our scumreads.

If we cheat against our scumreads, it puts pressure on the scum team. They are suddenly forced to try to play townie in thread so people don't think they are scum. If people think they are scum, they will cheat against them. This forces mafia to use banned moves in order to win. But even better than that, is if you cheat against a mafia member and they use their banned moves style of cheating, you will lose even though you cheated. That makes it pretty damn clear that your opponent was mafia. If we agree to cheat against our scumreads, and we happen to be correct, that makes cheating a dangerous choice for them.

Actually, they can use regular cheats and win anyway with superior ability. So it's not guaranteed that cheating and losing makes the other guy mafia.

It occurred to me that even if the cop guesses wrong, the person he suspected is confirmed town and we'll let them rise through the brackets. It'd still be more beneficial to get a right guess since it removes a MAF member, but the plan wouldn't be wrecked.

 

[Kantrip]

Actually, they can use regular cheats and win anyway with superior ability. So it's not guaranteed that cheating and losing makes the other guy mafia.

It occurred to me that even if the cop guesses wrong, the person he suspected is confirmed town and we'll let them rise through the brackets. It'd still be more beneficial to get a right guess since it removes a MAF member, but the plan wouldn't be wrecked.

Yeah but if you both use the regular cheat you play the match out normally.

If mafia uses a banned move against your regular cheat, you just lose. You'll know the difference this way.

 

[pawndidater2]

It occurred to me that even if the cop guesses wrong, the person he suspected is confirmed town and we'll let them rise through the brackets. It'd still be more beneficial to get a right guess since it removes a MAF member, but the plan wouldn't be wrecked.

Wait WATT pointed that out already? How high am I.

 

[Kantrip]

I still dislike Rake. He's just off this game. He irks me for reasons I have had trouble trying to explain.

soup and Gheb are scumreads of mine.
WATT, RR, Joker town.
PP and Super Fab leaning town.

I forget all my other reads if I had any. Will redevelop them later. Out for the night, seeya

 

[pawndidater2]

Yeah but if you both use the regular cheat you play the match out normally.

If mafia uses a banned move against your regular cheat, you just lose. You'll know the difference this way.

I don't think regular cheats are "moves". I think you say you're cheating and pick a move anyway. I think I think I think. I need to actually get through a match to fully understand this.

 

[pawndidater2]

Kantrip's pretty townie. I think most of his plan was just kind of common sense but posting it isn't doing MAF any favors. The part about saving a scum-read for the cop to point out hadn't occurred to me. Most of what he posted before this was null to me. Quotes and stuff tomorrow, WATT.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So much to read, so little time to respond.

Basically, WATT is saying that my suggestion on how we should cover the cop is pointless, aye? Care to simplify your explanation on that?
Don't see why I should justify myself against Kantrip's points when it's obvious where the pro-town intention in my posts is coming from.

Also, I'm going to announce that I will not cheat in my game against Rake.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Searching for a replacement for me. IRL got bad recently and this game is too long.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Searching for a replacement for me. IRL got bad recently and this game is too long.

Goddamnit.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

don't care about soup's AtE anymore, these contradictions in his play are pretty bad, and him acting all defeatist doesn't remedy that in the slightest. Scumread on soupy boy

If you're going to say something, you need to point out what you're talking about. Don't be lazy and tell me I'm contradicting myself when you can't point as to what was contradictory. You throw out AtE like it's even relevant in this situation, as I'm pretty sure I haven't been doing any of the sort in my latest burst of activity. This laziness attributes why I scum-read you, on top of the fact you feel the need to throw out statements like this hoping it will stick. Did you really change your stance from me being town the last time you popped your face to scum in the matter of something so simple as "AtE and contradictory?" And if so, what? You're not a moron and I'm not going to treat you one. You of all people should know how important it is to solidify a stance and if you actually care for something then you would being so. You don't. You don't care. You're scum and you're talking out of your ass because you don't want to put the effort into actually doing something because you feel there is no reason to. I believe as town, you wouldn't think this way. You would want to try and convince everyone what is scummy about me and be more cautious. This is my second reason for scum-reading you. You come in here, quote one post by me and you're certain on me being scum for...what reason now? Your certainty is fake. Your reasoning is fake. You are fake. ​

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Kantrip's pretty townie. I think most of his plan was just kind of common sense but posting it isn't doing MAF any favors. The part about saving a scum-read for the cop to point out hadn't occurred to me. Most of what he posted before this was null to me. Quotes and stuff tomorrow, WATT.

There was nothing townie about Kantrip's mechanics post. Scum has no problem talking about these things in a ditch effort to seem like a townie doing something. I literally don't care to read his post and you shouldn't either, because it's more than anything, null. For you to town-read someone like this sets alarms in my head, that you'll be easily swayed, however, your thought process is townie.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

So much to read, so little time to respond.

Basically, WATT is saying that my suggestion on how we should cover the cop is pointless, aye? Care to simplify your explanation on that?
Don't see why I should justify myself against Kantrip's points when it's obvious where the pro-town intention in my posts is coming from.

Also, I'm going to announce that I will not cheat in my game against Rake.

Do you have a reason for doing so, despite a majority of people disliking him? What's your read on Rake?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Nulltown: Ruy

Elaborate further on your Ruy read.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

What pattern?

We can go back to the same place or choose somewhere else. Scum is only gonna get an accurate poison if they are in a hotel room with others and play martyr for their team.

What makes you think this, specifically? Why would MAF try and poison themselves? I actually brough this up in my hotel room, thinking that this is what MAF wouldn't do. I mean, wouldn't there be an obvious connection, along with the fact it would make them suspicious? I think poisoning is just waiting to hit a bingo, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

@Super Fabulous

Have your reads changed since the last time you posted? Do you still scum-read me?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Back to bed. I wanted to say a couple more things but I'll wait a little longer. I'm still pretty null on Gheb and it's bothering me. Along with Sephnar. I don't feel comfortable with either with the content they're giving, and I doubt it will change anytime soon.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

The tourney cop is MOD-confirmed town with no exceptions.

This is huge, and will yield us at least one free scummer just for having him in the bracket (in addition to the scummer he'll remove to make sure he gets in the bracket.)

If the tourney cop gets in the bracket, we make sure every one of his opponents purposely loses to him. I don't give a **** if that goes against some personal win-con (looking at you, Ruy) or if you don't like the idea of throwing a match. The tourney cop making his way through the tournament means we keep track of a confirmed townie. If, at any point, he loses a match, we'll know his opponent didn't listen and we can boot their *** next phase.

How do we ensure the tourney cop wins if he can't cheat, though?

Well, we know which colour of moves beat the others, and we have a built-in prisoner's dilemma style mechanic to give people an edge without cheating.Anyone who goes against the tourney cop in cycle 2 will choose their main, the tourney cop will choose their counterpick, and the two will communicate so that the tourney cop uses moves that beat the moves their opponent uses. Failure to comply and allow the tourney cop to beat you will mean an instant scum status in thread.

How do we communicate that without giving away move information in public though?

We should cheat against our scumreads.

If we cheat against our scumreads, it puts pressure on the scum team. They are suddenly forced to try to play townie in thread so people don't think they are scum. If people think they are scum, they will cheat against them. This forces mafia to use banned moves in order to win. But even better than that, is if you cheat against a mafia member and they use their banned moves style of cheating, you will lose even though you cheated. That makes it pretty damn clear that your opponent was mafia. If we agree to cheat against our scumreads, and we happen to be correct, that makes cheating a dangerous choice for them

Thing is, we don't get any sort of notice that they cheated or not. We get a result that reflects a normal match, which is the same as happens if they cheat as well. That's part of the reason why I wanted to claim cheating/not cheating, because we can see what happens with a lazy mafiat saying "nope I didn't cheat" because they might have assumed normal outcome shown=assumption of no cheating.

So much to read, so little time to respond.

Basically, WATT is saying that my suggestion on how we should cover the cop is pointless, aye? Care to simplify your explanation on that?
Don't see why I should justify myself against Kantrip's points when it's obvious where the pro-town intention in my posts is coming from.

The mafia can't do squat about the cop once Day cycle 1 is over. In D2, the tourney cop is an auto clear. The point of protecting his identity was the assumption that we needed to protect it all game, which isn't the case or nabe wouldn't force the cop tpo out himself right when the important part of the game was beginning.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Ah OK @ Watt, basically the pros of the cop being clear outweigh the con of Mafia knowing his identity. I agree then.

Do you have a reason for doing so, despite a majority of people disliking him? What's your read on Rake?

Reason for doing what? Not cheating? Openly claiming to not do it? My read on Rake is not-scum and I don't care if I live or die in this game tbqh.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Yea that's about it. I don't know that we could have hid his ID for long after that anyways.
Just curious, is not-scum= to town for you?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yeah, it is. I'm just used to use the term "not-scum" because of how often we have indies in these games. In this game it's the same thing though. Rake isn't a scumread of mine and therefore is a townread of mine.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Yeah, it is. I'm just used to use the term "not-scum" because of how often we have indies in these games. In this game it's the same thing though. Rake isn't a scumread of mine and therefore is a townread of mine.

Can you show me your thought process on why?

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

Catchin up

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

Rake-are you gonna drop your revelation from the lunch room or should I?

Yes when i post lol

 

[Kantrip]

How do we communicate that without giving away move information in public though?

We don't, but it's worth the trade-off.

However, since the MOD has specified that matches can be forfeited, that makes it a lot easier. You go against a clear, you forfeit.

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

At work. Will make big post later.

Kantrip scum.
Dislike pawn
Pp obnoxious town.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

ehhhh. I can see it being in towns best collective interests, but I'm unsure as to what nabe meant when he said "there's a spectrum between town winning and town losing" and think this may fall in there.

 

[Kantrip]

​

​

If you're going to say something, you need to point out what you're talking about. Don't be lazy and tell me I'm contradicting myself when you can't point as to what was contradictory. You throw out AtE like it's even relevant in this situation, as I'm pretty sure I haven't been doing any of the sort in my latest burst of activity. This laziness attributes why I scum-read you, on top of the fact you feel the need to throw out statements like this hoping it will stick. Did you really change your stance from me being town the last time you popped your face to scum in the matter of something so simple as "AtE and contradictory?" And if so, what? You're not a moron and I'm not going to treat you one. You of all people should know how important it is to solidify a stance and if you actually care for something then you would being so. You don't. You don't care. You're scum and you're talking out of your *** because you don't want to put the effort into actually doing something because you feel there is no reason to. I believe as town, you wouldn't think this way. You would want to try and convince everyone what is scummy about me and be more cautious. This is my second reason for scum-reading you. You come in here, quote one post by me and you're certain on me being scum for...what reason now? Your certainty is fake. Your reasoning is fake. You are fake. ​

I thought it was pretty obvious within that very post.

I wasn't talking about your latest activity. Early on in the game people jumped at you. Fast. It was AtE that saved you from that, and a lot of people did a 360 on their read on you. Even I started to see your flustered flailing as town desperation. Then you took on the whole "you can't lynch me or do anything to me so why even try" attitude. To my knowledge, there was no change in your outlook between that phase and the post I quoted where you... actually tried to do pro-town stuff.

The contradiction lies in the fact that the attitude you were flaunting in thread of "you can't touch me so I don't have to do anything" goes completely against your actions, wherein you talk about reads on people and say you need to reread the thread.

I solidified the stance in that very post if you have half a brain to look at the questions I asked you (as they were partly rhetorical and only meant to show the contradictions in your words and actions).

Have you played with me? Like, ever? In a recent game? Cautious as town? Are you kidding me?!? Look again at your meta of me or shut the **** up. Thank you.

 

[Kantrip]

At work. Will make big post later.

Kantrip scum.
Dislike pawn
Pp obnoxious town.

Oooh this is good stuff.

I would love to see this substantiated, I want to see what tells Rake is wrong about. That goes for both the scum reads here, don't care about your pp read.

 

[Kantrip]

ehhhh. I can see it being in towns best collective interests, but I'm unsure as to what nabe meant when he said "there's a spectrum between town winning and town losing" and think this may fall in there.

Are you honestly telling me you disagree with the idea of letting a CLEARED TOWNIE progress in the bracket? It's not like both players can win. If I'm ever up against the tourney cop or his clear (in cycle 2 mind you), you can be damn sure I'm making sure we keep that clear in the bracket.