Koopa VS Kefka -- The Endless Tournament ends! Who took home the prize?

[Super Fabulous]

I just don't see the point. Are we going to do this to avoid lunch places in the future, or try to find mafia somehow? (Which we can't tie them to because we have no pr that can do that)

If you really want to make this stick outline how the pro's outweigh the cons.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Early on you gave a weird vibe stance on me. I want you to talk about that, and why you haven't followed up with that.

I think it was how you were reacting with Soup and defending him.

I'm gonna reread tonight to refresh myself since I'll be home and fully able to read from a comp.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

MKay.
So we should prolly only claim where we went if a restaraunt is poisoned.
Treat anyone who is poisoned as "not the poisoner"
Poisoner is whow e should aim to hit with removal if possible.

Blargh no, don't go down that Wifom road.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

I get why people don't want to out meal choices but I think the pros outweigh the cons, we can interpret from that what people were leading people and who did what.

Alright, but don't you think outlining everyone's daily eating habits publicly in thread has more cons than simply discussing who wished to go to the restaurant that got hit after a poisoning?

The way it is now mafia has to either guess/hit people at random or personally lead a room to a poisoned restaurant. If we out eating tendencies then they have the ability to guess what people might be inclined to answer for their eating choices in a vacuum (even if mostly random).

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm still feeling a bit lost with this game. Like, I'm still not sure if there's anything I can do except wait for my match to happen *shrug*

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Alright, but don't you think outlining everyone's daily eating habits publicly in thread has more cons than simply discussing who wished to go to the restaurant that got hit after a poisoning?

The way it is now mafia has to either guess/hit people at random or personally lead a room to a poisoned restaurant. If we out eating tendencies then they have the ability to guess what people might be inclined to answer for their eating choices in a vacuum (even if mostly random).

I don't see how mafia is not guessing if we tell or not. They are trying to read into WIFOM.

 

[Picture Perfect]

Would like to bring this up again as it's going to be kind of important soon.

What do yall think about it?

1. Agree
2. We should keep our own votecount of who we want to be investigated. This can be our defacto lynch.

 

[Picture Perfect]

EBWOP: Wait. Lemme reread the rules.

 

[Picture Perfect]

Don't see the point of that. As far as I can see, nobody has any reason to lie about it.

 

[Picture Perfect]

Mafia can slip up and lie. It's something we should hold people accountable for.
There's only one poisoner. He's not gonna poison himself.




Big read letters Gheb. One poisoner. Each mafiat can do something different. 651 explained my interpretations of this.

Interesting. I think we also need to keep an eye on room swaps too. I make nothing of Super Fab joining our room and PJB joining Room 1 but I'm incredibly intrigued by Kantrip joining in the room with Ryker in it.

@Nabe: Can you prod him? Or something? Ryker has yet to post and I'm tempted to assume he's scum.

 

[Picture Perfect]

Mafia can slip up and lie. It's something we should hold people accountable for.
There's only one poisoner. He's not gonna poison himself.




Big read letters Gheb. One poisoner. Each mafiat can do something different. 651 explained my interpretations of this.

Actually, let's talk about this and get an idea of what we need to expect per phase. I think this is incredibly important information and all of us getting on the same page would be ideal.

 

[Picture Perfect]

Slip up and lie about cheating? I think it's pretty much established that cheating can't really be held against anybody, isn't it? So what is there to slip on?

I'm OK with claiming where we went though.

Cheating when you said you wouldn't.

 

[Picture Perfect]

Reads:

Town: WOTT, PJB, Super Fab, Soup, Pawn
Nulltown: Ruy
Null: Koops, Choco
Don't Trust: Gheb, Ryker, Kantrip
Scum: Rake

 

[Picture Perfect]

OKAY SO

Figuring out what exactly we know about the mafia is incredibly important. While we have the OP for that, I want to talk about what we know the mafia can do and see what sort of assumptions we can make based on that knowledge. I assume all of us have read the information Nabe gave us but we need but having all of that paraphrased and put into a concise location is easier than digging into the rules and other info Nabe gave us. It's also easier to make assumptions when it's laid out in front of us.


First, we know that there are four mafia, and that each individual mafia can affect each phase of the day cycle. From the OP:

[collapse=on maf's four members]

• Of MAF's four members: each one interferes with the standard play of one of the four phases of Day Cycle 1. They cannot communicate privately without being in a hotel room with each other, except for one member with a trick up his sleeve... or rather, a phone in his pocket, and he's keeping an eye out for the Tourney Cop, too. One shadowy member has an intimate knowledge of the inner workings of Koopa VS Kefka characters, and no non-disclosure agreement is going to stop him from exploiting it. Or, will he take even harsher steps? Another is eager to make money, even at the expense of other hard-working restauranteurs, and other players' personal health. And yet one more is a top tournament player of another franchise, who thinks fresh blood in the fighting game market is a death knell for his ailing community, and isn't afraid to demonstrate how unbalanced this character roster really is. If you're town, don't let these scoundrels win!

[/collapse]

Right now, our game's day cycles are: Morning, Lunch, Match, and Night. So let's play a little mix and match! We know that the Poisoner affects lunch because it's the only time in the game where stuff is poisoned, based on this:

[collapse=lunch time info]

• Lunch: All players may talk within their hotel room groups ONLY. (Players who are solo for this phase are not allowed to talk to other players.)Many sponsor restaurants have food carts at the venue. Each day, one restaurant will have had their food poisoned by MAF, and will make any players who visit it sick for the rest of the Day. Poisoned restaurants are removed from the venue on subsequent Days. Each group's (or solo player's) choice of restaurant will be made privately in the group, either by vote (or by telling me in the case of a solo player), or by my own jurisdiction on group intent / random selection if time is short.

[/collapse]

That leaves what I call the informant, the dev, and the pro between match, morning, and night. I can only spitball from this point forward but before we go on, let's look at other information we get from the OP.

[collapse=On the Night Phase]

• Night: All players may talk within their hotel room groups ONLY. (This includes MAF members.) Any roles with Night choices will make them at this time. If they so choose, a player may play exactly one match (best 2/3) with another player in their room at this time, using any character of their choice, which I will facilitate to the best of my ability. (It is highly recommended to partake in this, to gain insight on the character roster and character interactions.) Groups with odd numbers of members must vote or otherwise agree in their group on which player will not take part in the match(es).

Spoiler

Based on this and the note above, we can probably assume one mafiat does have a night action, albeit it is not a kill. Whether or not the tourney cop has one remains to be seen and he can keep it to himself, thanks.

[collapse=On Cheating (Mafia Specific)]
There is an additional method of Cheating available only to Team MAF -- using banned moves. This trumps normal Cheating, and again, both players will see an "outcome" reflecting an ordinary round. Banned moves may only be used in one round per match. Many characters do not have banned moves.

We know Maf has access to banned moves, radarada, they'll show up to cheating, common knowledge. I'm not gonna make much of this at the moment.

[collapse=On Mafia's wincon]

• Team MAF consists of four members. If at any point MAF are the only players remaining in the Brackets, or if one of their members wins the tournament, then Team MAF wins the game. (If there are only MAF players left, the tournament will still play to a close.) But there is a spectrum of possible endings to this game that fall in between town winning and town losing -- try to beat MAF at every opportunity, however you can, so that Koopa VS Kefka has the best possible chance of becoming popular and being played at EVO!

[/collapse]

Also noted but discussed at this point. Just bringing it here because this is partially an information collection/dump.

[collapse=Warning for Tourney Cop]Tourney Cop: Don't claim, don't crumb, don't hint. You can bet that in Cycle 1, MAF is going to be on the lookout for you, and they might even be able to throw a wrench in the works. You don't know who these people are, or what they're capable of. You'll have to make a public MAF guess at the end of Cycle 1, but until then, going incognito is the ticket!

[/collapse]

It's safe to assume that the Cop is in danger as long as he can still make his guess. From what? Probably said informant. We know the informant has the ability to communicate, given that he has a phone, but I don't know with whom. We know that wrenches are going to be thrown in the cop's way, but we don't exactly know what. I can assume that they cannot specifically remove the cop from the game but I can assume they interfere with his actions, probably with investigations on the matches themselves rather than his suspicion ability. I cannot say for certain.

Now, if I had to guess, I assume that the pro operates during the match phase because something with the objective to prove the game is broken should probably occur in a situation where he's actually playing the game. We know the poisoner affects lunch phase, so that leaves the informant and the dev affecting morning and night and we know so little about the dev other than that he has info on the characters for me to pigeonhole him anywhere and the informant is so powerful and can interfere with the cop at any point to pigeonhole him anywhere either.

DISCUSS THIS.

Other notes:
1. THE MAFIA CANNOT COMMUNICATE OUTSIDE OF HOTEL ROOM. Outside of their informant, they have to be in the same hotel room. This means we need to keep a close eye on who goes where but expect the informant to stay outside of the rest of them.
2.
[collapse=On Other Goals]
Players are encouraged to go for their goals only when it does not conflict with their factional win condition, but still to go for those goals as if they were their own. Achieving the goals in full is not as important as trying to.

[/collapse]

AKA no playing like an indy AKA why I ranted that townies still need to remember there's a townie condition and cooperate with town to win the game AKA never forget this it's even in the op mother****ers
3. It's safe to assume there's probably a room with two scum. I can't see scum not taking the opportunity to switch to a room where they can talk to their teammates unless it came under heavy scrutiny (which it's about to, but it wasn't before). Of these, it's either room 2 or room 4, as I doubt Pawn, PJB, or Wot are scum.
4. Unfortunately, we are still discussing speculation until match results come out. That is the primary focus.

 

[Picture Perfect]

ebwop: gogdammit **** you faceboards you ****ing piece of **** ****

 

[Picture Perfect]

Would like to bring this up again as it's going to be kind of important soon.

What do yall think about it?

Reread the rules, he only gets to put someone under suspicion once before day cycle 2.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

I don't see how mafia is not guessing if we tell or not. They are trying to read into WIFOM.

I'm not really seeing how this isn't more trouble than it's worth unless after a lunch phase you specifically suspect one of your hotel group members of trying to lead you to a poisoned restaurant, in which case it can simply be outed at the time it occurs. What else are we hoping to gain from it?

If there isn't anything else, we're just giving mafia a spreadsheet of perfect knowledge of our daily human tendencies to choose one arbitrary item on the list over another without them having to have been in our room first to know. I'd rather they had imperfect knowledge.

Reread the rules, he only gets to put someone under suspicion once before day cycle 2.

I think Gheb might be referring to the daily investigation of player matches here? (Gheb y/n?)

If so I'm not sure we want to force our cop to bend to consensus on his reviewing of matches, if we do and they comply it incentiveizes any mafia not in the solitary match being agreed to have been investigated that day to use as many banned moves and cheating as possible as they would assumedly be safe from being found out.

We can certainly suggest people we think need to be watched though, but making it concrete seems to help mafia play their advantages with perfect efficiency.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

One thing I'm unclear on. Restaurants are removed from the list if someone goes there and gets poisoned by it, we know that. Why would that be? Because it stays poisoned?

If that's the case, then we should try to figure out what restaurant got poisoned during this lunch phase, so we never visit it. The only way to do that is to figure out what restaurant nobody visited. Because the poisoned restaurant is on that list.

What do we think about that?

 

[Picture Perfect]

I agree, WOTT.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

PS: If the tourney cop makes his public guess at a member of mafia at the end of cycle 1 and guesses wrong, I want everyone acutely aware that we still get a clear out of that.

And you BETTER let that clear move up in bracket any way you can if you're in match with them, even if you don't think they're as strong a player as you, because they've literally been mod-cleared at that point as town.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

One thing I'm unclear on. Restaurants are removed from the list if someone goes there and gets poisoned by it, we know that. Why would that be? Because it stays poisoned?

If that's the case, then we should try to figure out what restaurant got poisoned during this lunch phase, so we never visit it. The only way to do that is to figure out what restaurant nobody visited. Because the poisoned restaurant is on that list.

What do we think about that?

I don't think that's how it works. If we go to lunch tomorrow and two hotel rooms get sick that'd be OP. I was under the assumption restaurants don't stay poisoned... unless they're ****ty restaurants who keep day old food and serve it back to you, you know?

From what I understand restaurants that DO have people get poisoned from them get taken off the list because literally no one wants to eat there anymore and probably the FDA shut them down or something... also because Nabe is a **** and is making it more likely for us all to be poisoned near the end of cycle 1.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

ok, I guess that makes sense. Then keeping the restaurants we visited to ourselves is probably the best move.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Right. If for some reason we find out that restaurants stay poisoned then we can reconsider, but I just can't see that being balanced.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

I don't. That's why I think it's very important to cover the tourney cop for as long as possible. I've been thinking about the best way to do that - I think it'd be smart if we tried to find a consensus on whom should be investigated by the cop. Then EVERYBODY will publicly announce that player as his investigation target. That way we can make sure that the cop won't be outed, even if he investigates a scumbag. We can give byes to cleared players. As long as the tourney cop is alive MAF cannot possibly win this game, I believe.

Okay on re-reading this I think Gheb is talking about the final cycle 1 investigation. But I think he's suggesting that everyone announce the same player all at the same time in thread "NO I'M ZORRO" style, which A) I don't think the mod will allow as he's almost certainly just going to announce it grandstand style. and B) Just prevents us from having a confirmed clear in the tourney cop even if it did work.

Nabe isn't going to allow a game where mafia can kill the tourney cop even after he outs himself... anything they can do to the cop has to be cycle 1 only.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

EBWOP: Is publicly forced by the mod to out himself

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Think about that for a minute Gheb:

Nabe has confirmed to us that if he guesses wrong he's out of the tournament and gets to review matches. (it's in the OP)

He's also confirmed to us that if he guesses right and is put in the tournament he still gets to review matches. (I asked this question in thread.)

It stands to reason Nabe didn't give mafia an ability to mess with these review results during Cycle 2 that we have to protect the tourney cop from. There's no feasible way he would have, because he's forcing this to be public knowledge even if we zorro it in at least one scenario. We're much better off knowing who a clear is in that case, we're getting one either way, just one way it's the cop instead of nobody.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Agreed. Being forced, by way of the mechanics, to be revealed would be way too unfair if the mafia had a way to take him out at that point. So we should just wait and see.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Although, it frightens me to say "there's no way the setup would be that dumb" as justification for why something must function a certain way. Because any time I think that, I find out that the setup was, in fact, dumb.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

I know what you mean, but this is a pretty big case of "It's heavily implied that this is not going to happen. Or there wouldn't be additional functions of the tourney cop in cycle 2 at all, nor would there have been anything to be done about it" and not "There's no way there'd be three bodygaurds in this setup!".

I'm fairly certain the issue will be entirely moot as soon as Nabe goes "OKAY TOURNEY COP X, WUTS UR PICK" in public though.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

That leaves what I call the informant, the dev, and the pro between match, morning, and night. I can only spitball from this point forward but before we go on, let's look at other information we get from the OP.

[collapse=On the Night Phase]

• Night: All players may talk within their hotel room groups ONLY. (This includes MAF members.) Any roles with Night choices will make them at this time. If they so choose, a player may play exactly one match (best 2/3) with another player in their room at this time, using any character of their choice, which I will facilitate to the best of my ability. (It is highly recommended to partake in this, to gain insight on the character roster and character interactions.) Groups with odd numbers of members must vote or otherwise agree in their group on which player will not take part in the match(es).

Spoiler

Based on this and the note above, we can probably assume one mafiat does have a night action, albeit it is not a kill. Whether or not the tourney cop has one remains to be seen and he can keep it to himself, thanks.

Spoiler

The mafiat with the extra information I would wager is the one involved with match phase. The phone-weilding mafiat is probably the one who has effect over night phase. Leaving the last guy to screw with morning phase?

[collapse=On Mafia's wincon]

• Team MAF consists of four members. If at any point MAF are the only players remaining in the Brackets, or if one of their members wins the tournament, then Team MAF wins the game. (If there are only MAF players left, the tournament will still play to a close.) But there is a spectrum of possible endings to this game that fall in between town winning and town losing -- try to beat MAF at every opportunity, however you can, so that Koopa VS Kefka has the best possible chance of becoming popular and being played at EVO!

Also noted but discussed at this point. Just bringing it here because this is partially an information collection/dump.

What are you seeing in this post I'm not, considering we can only actively eliminate two mafia members at best from the thread, I'm not sure where you're going with this.

[collapse=Warning for Tourney Cop]Tourney Cop:Don't claim, don't crumb, don't hint. You can bet that in Cycle 1, MAF is going to be on the lookout for you, and they might even be able to throw a wrench in the works. You don't know who these people are, or what they're capable of. You'll have to make a public MAF guess at the end of Cycle 1, but until then, going incognito is the ticket!

[/collapse]

It's safe to assume that the Cop is in danger as long as he can still make his guess. From what? Probably said informant. We know the informant has the ability to communicate, given that he has a phone, but I don't know with whom. We know that wrenches are going to be thrown in the cop's way, but we don't exactly know what. I can assume that they cannot specifically remove the cop from the game but I can assume they interfere with his actions, probably with investigations on the matches themselves rather than his suspicion ability. I cannot say for certain.

I'm in agreement with this. it seems that the only known ways of making someone get removed from the game are definitively town sided(tourney cop) and town influenced(removal).

Now, if I had to guess, I assume that the pro operates during the match phase because something with the objective to prove the game is broken should probably occur in a situation where he's actually playing the game. We know the poisoner affects lunch phase, so that leaves the informant and the dev affecting morning and night and we know so little about the dev other than that he has info on the characters for me to pigeonhole him anywhere and the informant is so powerful and can interfere with the cop at any point to pigeonhole him anywhere either.

DISCUSS THIS.

Hit this up above

Other notes:
1. THE MAFIA CANNOT COMMUNICATE OUTSIDE OF HOTEL ROOM. Outside of their informant, they have to be in the same hotel room. This means we need to keep a close eye on who goes where but expect the informant to stay outside of the rest of them.
2.

Players are encouraged to go for their goals only when it does not conflict with their factional win condition, but still to go for those goals as if they were their own. Achieving the goals in full is not as important as trying to.



AKA no playing like an indy AKA why I ranted that townies still need to remember there's a townie condition and cooperate with town to win the game AKA never forget this it's even in the op mother****ers
3. It's safe to assume there's probably a room with two scum. I can't see scum not taking the opportunity to switch to a room where they can talk to their teammates unless it came under heavy scrutiny (which it's about to, but it wasn't before). Of these, it's either room 2 or room 4, as I doubt Pawn, PJB, or Wot are scum.
4. Unfortunately, we are still discussing speculation until match results come out. That is the primary focus.

1-So you're saying that if we get a confirmed mafiat, it's not likely that he'll have been in a hotel room with the other mafiats early on?
2-So much yes.
3-Isn't room four your room?
4- Unfortunately so.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

The mafiat with the extra information I would wager is the one involved with match phase. The phone-weilding mafiat is probably the one who has effect over night phase. Leaving the last guy to screw with morning phase?

Spoiler: On Mafia's wincon Toggle Spoiler
Team MAF consists of four members. If at any point MAF are the only players remaining in the Brackets, or if one of their members wins the tournament, then Team MAF wins the game. (If there are only MAF players left, the tournament will still play to a close.) But there is a spectrum of possible endings to this game that fall in between town winning and town losing -- try to beat MAF at every opportunity, however you can, so that Koopa VS Kefka has the best possible chance of becoming popular and being played at EVO!
Also noted but discussed at this point. Just bringing it here because this is partially an information collection/dump.

What are you seeing in this post I'm not, considering we can only actively eliminate two mafia members at best from the thread, I'm not sure where you're going with this.

Spoiler: Warning for Tourney Cop Toggle Spoiler
Tourney Cop:Don't claim, don't crumb, don't hint. You can bet that in Cycle 1, MAF is going to be on the lookout for you, and they might even be able to throw a wrench in the works. You don't know who these people are, or what they're capable of. You'll have to make a public MAF guess at the end of Cycle 1, but until then, going incognito is the ticket!
It's safe to assume that the Cop is in danger as long as he can still make his guess. From what? Probably said informant. We know the informant has the ability to communicate, given that he has a phone, but I don't know with whom. We know that wrenches are going to be thrown in the cop's way, but we don't exactly know what. I can assume that they cannot specifically remove the cop from the game but I can assume they interfere with his actions, probably with investigations on the matches themselves rather than his suspicion ability. I cannot say for certain.

I'm in agreement with this. it seems that the only known ways of making someone get removed from the game are definitively town sided(tourney cop) and town influenced(removal).
Now, if I had to guess, I assume that the pro operates during the match phase because something with the objective to prove the game is broken should probably occur in a situation where he's actually playing the game. We know the poisoner affects lunch phase, so that leaves the informant and the dev affecting morning and night and we know so little about the dev other than that he has info on the characters for me to pigeonhole him anywhere and the informant is so powerful and can interfere with the cop at any point to pigeonhole him anywhere either.
DISCUSS THIS.
Hit this up above

Other notes:
1. THE MAFIA CANNOT COMMUNICATE OUTSIDE OF HOTEL ROOM. Outside of their informant, they have to be in the same hotel room. This means we need to keep a close eye on who goes where but expect the informant to stay outside of the rest of them.
2.
Players are encouraged to go for their goals only when it does not conflict with their factional win condition, but still to go for those goals as if they were their own. Achieving the goals in full is not as important as trying to.
AKA no playing like an indy AKA why I ranted that townies still need to remember there's a townie condition and cooperate with town to win the game AKA never forget this it's even in the op mother****ers
3. It's safe to assume there's probably a room with two scum. I can't see scum not taking the opportunity to switch to a room where they can talk to their teammates unless it came under heavy scrutiny (which it's about to, but it wasn't before). Of these, it's either room 2 or room 4, as I doubt Pawn, PJB, or Wot are scum.
4. Unfortunately, we are still discussing speculation until match results come out. That is the primary focus.

1-So you're saying that if we get a confirmed mafiat, it's not likely that he'll have been in a hotel room with the other mafiats early on?
2-So much yes.
3-Isn't room four your room?
4- Unfortunately so.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Mod-If removal is successfully used on a mafia but the tourney cop does not make a correct public guess, does he still join the tournament?
What happens bracketwise to the tourney if both the tourney cops guess and removal are correctly used on a mafiat?

Nabe want an answer on these

I don't see how mafia is not guessing if we tell or not. They are trying to read into WIFOM.

If we tell them where we've been, they have a definite knowledge of where we've gone and upon the following days they can form a pattern. I know I've got a plan when it comes to my lunches. If we don't say anything, they've got no idea where we have been unless they were in our room. That's a huge information advantage for town. Information will win this game ruy, not necessarily just having the correct reads.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

What pattern?

We can go back to the same place or choose somewhere else. Scum is only gonna get an accurate poison if they are in a hotel room with others and play martyr for their team.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

What pattern?

We can go back to the same place or choose somewhere else. Scum is only gonna get an accurate poison if they are in a hotel room with others and play martyr for their team.

If there is a plan, then there is a pattern.
I personally don't think scum wants to poison themselves, due to the fact that they then can't play a match for themselves and they've got no teamwide communication.
We also don't know when scum has to send in the poison. it could be at the beginning of a phase or at the end of it, and that could change their decisions by a lot.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Nabe want an answer on these

Nothing will change from what's stipulated in the rules, but mitigating conditions may be added at my great mustachioed whim.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Nothing will change from what's stipulated in the rules, but mitigating conditions may be added at my great mustachioed whim.

Can we get prods? Are we free to do that ourselves too since we're in charge of replacing ourselves?

 

[Wots All This Then?]

The utter lack of content from at least 9 slots in this game is disappointing as hell.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Rake-are you gonna drop your revelation from the lunch room or should I?

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Can we get prods? Are we free to do that ourselves too since we're in charge of replacing ourselves?

Players are strongly responsible for their own activity in this game. I won't be prodding any more than gently this phase especially, since there's no vote, and since absent players will be handled by forfeiting their Match.

 

[pawndidater2]

I would be contributing but all that's going on now is mechanics talk. I don't really have anything to say about that so for now I'm lurking.