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Koopa Questions: a Bowser Q&A Thread

Flayl

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It's not mainly bowser's weakness, it's MK's strength. He can shuttle loop a lot of people offstage for an early kill for example

Don't want to spend too much time to find a good example, but M2K does it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCV6WlbVjE4&t=050s

Ally survives because it's Snake and he DI's correctly, but that thing will KO a lot of characters way before 150%
 
D

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Well, I am not that poorly aknowledged. = P I know an aerial Shuttle Loop may kill really early, but I didn't consider it since I think no one really ever eats it.
 

Cassius.

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And the frame-trap thing i was explaining early is not exclusive to Bowser. It just works well because we have a very good kill move that they have to look out for, otherwise theyre dying at like...80%.

MK sometimes doesnt even need shuttle loop for a gimp. Having Shuttle loop in your pocket is a good enough scare tactic to force a lot of people into rough positions. I think MK abuses frame traps the best out of anyone mainly because his air time and aerial attacks are so good..they cover so many options.

:phone:
 

Cassius.

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it's hard to call because a lot of people know how the bowsercide works now, so it usually isn't an option.

usually if im in a clean stock lead i'll do it because the opponent literally has no control over it at that point. if i'm at a deficit but my opponent and i are on the same stock i'll always aim for a bowsercide to even it up. it's very very rare and it's also a pretty big investment to run back to square one. you're throwing it all on evening the stocks up and starting on a clean slate, which in most match ups is not as good as it sounds for bowser.
 

Cassius.

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just to roll away from someone..? that's not what it's made for lol you can get punished really badly for that. if you need to roll, just jump instead if you're in pressure.

i don't know how it is where you're from but nowadays people scout for ****ty up-bs from me and i get punished for it. i can't even imagine if i did it as an alternative to rolling. bowser's roll ends earlier than his upb. the only thing you're getting out of that is a moving hitbox, and only bowser's immediate hitbox on his up-b will save you. the second one blows..

basically if they're not attacking your shield there is absolutely no reason why you should randomly up-b.
 

Cassius.

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bowser's roll is bad, yes, but if all you need to do is get away, and your opponent is not attacking your shield, why would you up-b out of nowhere?

i didn't get a concrete example of how you use up-b, i just assumed they weren't hitting your shield. if they were then by all means do your dance...but if not then it just doesn't seem sensible to me to do so.
 

Uncle

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One defensive option that often gets ignored is running backwards. You give up some stage, but sometimes it's safer than committing to a jump or anything else. Defense in Brawl is really tricky in general, imo. Sometimes, you make a sensible judgment call but you get punished anyway, simply because the opponent made a correct prediction. It also doesn't help that Bowser is horrible at avoiding damage.
 

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Obviously when someone hits your shield! You have a make a judgement call on whether you're going to up-b oos or grab. Of course, the game isn't limited to only those options. You can take the hit on your shield and react accordingly. Maybe it's unsafe? You can get a klaw off and get good damage, or go for a jab string. Maybe the hit ends up crossing you up? Just turn around and react accordingly, or just up-b if you're not risky like I am haha

Basically just use up-b oos for what it's made for, but be careful about how you use it, of course.

:phone:
 

Cassius.

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Every throw is useful for something. it all depends on the situation. but for conventional use it's a tie between back and down. I'll explain when I wake up later.

You shouldnt be throwing anyone with Bowser anyway, only in certain situations.

:phone:
 
D

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I like to B-Throw when I can throw them off the stage and put them on a bad situation.
I like to D-Throw when I'm either feeling really uncreative with my GR follow-up or just don't know it at all.
 

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Yeah. Swei explained it pretty well. You can use B-Throw to get them offstage and regain stage control for yourself. Getting some characters offstage and on the ledge may actually be good for you and may be a good chance to rack up damage (ie, in the D3 match-up).

You usually shouldn't want to F-Throw, but sometimes that comes out if I mess up. I wish my execution in Marvel carried over 100% to this game haha, I'd be a ****ing monster!

DThrow is weird, I don't know what to say about it. It'd be great if it set up a tech-chase option because I believe Bowser is really good at that (we have a command grab that goes both directions...come on now), but the fact that characters can DI up and still avoid that situation since it's not Melee makes it pretty depressing.

UThrow is pretty cool because it can set up frame-traps on unsuspecting people. You can only DI in two directions, and unless you press forward, you're just going to go straight up and eat whatever mixup the Bowser player has, provided that they know what they're doing. Seriously, you're either going away from Bowser (but in front of him, of course), or up. That's it.

In my opinion, you should really only be using BAir when you have a good opportunity, or UThrow if you're really confident in your Bowser play. Most people aren't though, so I guess DThrow is a good substitution.

The real solution is to work on your grab release options so you can maximize damage from a grab and make all of those throws sort of unnecessary (except BThrow of course, that's always good).
 
D

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Oh man, Limit. That is a genius idea.
Thanks to your idea of Bowser's U-Air aerial frame traps, I can combine it with U-Throw for a possible kill. I never ever really found a good use for U-Throw because I found U-Air really predictable.
 

Dre89

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i've recently been screwing around with Bowser Bombing to the ledge as a tactic against people who try to recover vertically. it also works as a pretty good fakeout when you're not too close to the edge. i forgot who would never shut up about bowser bomb in the bowser boards a few months ago, but i've been doing it a lot more, and it's been scaring the **** out of people/making me laugh, so to whoever you are, thank you!
That was me.

Just saying.
 

Cassius.

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Right. I have no idea why your name completely slipped my mind, I actually feel bad about that. But thank you haha
 

Dre89

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Well I was only ever on the fringes of the Bowser community, and I haven't posted here in like 8 months. But I'm back from my brawl hibernation now, which I'm sure you're all over the moon about.
 

MrEh

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Dthrow is really funny if you want to go for big reads. Since Dthrow doesn't really scale in knockback, the knockback is pretty much the same no matter what % your opponent is at.

1. Dthrow opponent
2. Up angled Ftilt
3. Watch what your opponent does
4. React accordingly
 

Cassius.

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this is the short answer.

there are some things in a match that really only find use when you see fit for it. DAir is one of those moves, because it's very bad, but like Bowser Bomb, Firebreath and other moves, it certainly wouldn't hurt you to throw it out sometimes. This is a game where you can afford to do weird ****, and it won't necessarily cause you a game if you're good about it. I'm not saying to go balls out and become a huge nut, but spicing things up sometimes isn't so bad.


here's the longer answer:

it's really bad so if you're going to use it, you're going to be betting on it all the way, really. you can use it if someone's just standing stupidly beneath you expecting an airdodge (come on, we're better than that). it'll get a few hits and cause a push once bowser lands.

a lot of players like to bombard bowser or rush him down when he's open, so instinctively a lot of players won't wait to see what you'll do next--they'll just attack you thinking that they can punish bowser. this is a good chance to throw out a random move of your choice (jab, ftilt, dtilt, fsmash) and watch you work your magic. this will only work a couple of times but it's a nice mindgame and the disjoint on fsmash will cause most attacks to whiff (especially at the distance that DAir creates) and you can retaliate with your own attack which will probably kill.

of course, this is a generalization and this varies from player to player, amd from match to match. it's on you to adapt and become a better Brawl player--this in turn will affect how you play bowser and as you learn more about the character, will make you a much more threatening Bowser player in general. being a brawl player and a bowser player are two different things, but they are still heavily related.

here's a quirky little fact:

At the center of it, Bowser's DAir is also a semi-spike, similar to Kirby's DAir. At the center of it, there is a hitbox that is designed to send the opponent straight down, while everything else just does stuff. if you do a short hop down air and get it right, you can still make it back and score an edgeguard depending on who you're fighting.

That's some OD **** though, I wouldn't recommend it unless you're ****ing around or something like that.

You can ALSO do a walkoff DAir and pretty much guarantee a spike and STILL make it back, but that's even more ridiculous than what I mentioned previously, and probably more difficult. Doing a walk-off move is the same thing as how Ikes, Falcos, Marths and other characters do walk-off DAirs.
 

Dre89

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I think dair beats out Snake's usmash (needs to be confirmed, but I remember dairing a Snake from directly above when he usmashed), so it could be useful for catching an unsuspecting Snake who thinks he can DACUS when you're in the air.

Dair also eats shields, not sure if the landing hitbox (which is the only good thing about the move) can poke through shields though.

I don't think it's a good move, but I've found use for it fastfalling it to hit with the landing hitbox and random points in matches. Obviously I should only be used rarely though.

Edit- With regards to what Limit said about spiking, if you A-stick you won't fastfall the fair, which might make it a bit easier to recover.
 

Cassius.

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A-sticking is changing the controller layout, right?

You can do walk-off DAirs without changing anything. I'm one of the guys who advocates not changing anything on your controller because you pretty much do everything important with the default layout (get your execution up!) The only character I can think of where it's mandatory to have TJ off is with Yoshi really, and I don't know how important B-sticking is to some characters, probably none?

If the Snake is going to DACUS and you know it, you'd be better off just doing a Down-B straight up.

It ultimately depends on your style, the bottom line is that DAir is a pretty ****ty move but there are uses for it. You just need to be open to it I guess.
 

Dre89

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A-sticking is changing the controller layout, right?

You can do walk-off DAirs without changing anything. I'm one of the guys who advocates not changing anything on your controller because you pretty much do everything important with the default layout (get your execution up!)

If the Snake is going to DACUS and you know it, you'd be better off just doing a Down-B straight up.
A-sticking is setting the c-stick to tilts.

A-sticking is actually pretty good for Bowser because it allows him to do things he can't really do without it that are pretty helpful for him. Things like pivot jabs, pivot utilts and pivot dtilts are much harder without it. I think it also makes things like GR-ftilt easier.

I never said you need A-sticking to do walk-off dairs. What I said was that if you A-stick it, you won't fastfall, which makes it easier to recover.

And with bombing Snake's DACUS, that's not always optimal. FF dair is faster and more mobile, giving you greater margin for error. FF dair is less of a commitment too in that it's mobility and speed allow it to cover more options than bomb if you happen to misread the Snake. Also too, Snake may not be at KO percent, and I don't advocate going for a bomb unless they're at KO percent, because you're really only going to ever land one bomb a set and you want it for an early KO.

That's just my take though, I could be wrong,
 

Cassius.

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Even if you don't A stick it, you still won't fastfall. I'm confused, I thought I addressed the whole point lol

You're not wrong about the Bombing thing but it really depends on what you'd rather: If the DAir hits, you're in close combat with Snake which can result in 20% from an FTilt or whatever if you don't get out/do something fast. If it misses, god knows what could happen. It's relatively the same thing for Bowser Bomb but it's a lot riskier. The reward is that you'll get Snake into the air and you can take it from there. Obviously if you miss it'll be the same punishments, or if it's timed incorrectly you'll just eat the missile from the up smash.

I think Bowser does a phenomenal job at keeping Snake's landing options in check.

It really all depends though.

and that one bomb per set thing isn't necessarily true. You'd be surprised how much weird **** you can land in a set, really haha.
 

Z'zgashi

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I have no idea if this has anything to do with the topic at hand, but if you hold up and input a dair with the c stick, you wont fast fall.
 

Cassius.

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That's one way to do the walk-off without fastfalling with the default layout. There's another way and I think a third one but yeah it's still around my point. I was just saying that you can do everything the A-stick allows you to in more or less a similar fashion.

The pivoting stuff is obviously way more difficult normally but you can just grind it out and figure out how to pivot. Practice makes perfect, you know? No one gets ground released pivot regrabs over night (I still can't get that **** often but it's certainly a lot more common thanks to practicing).

I can't front though, pivoting is rough but it is pretty beneficial, Dre is right
 

Dre89

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That's one way to do the walk-off without fastfalling with the default layout. There's another way and I think a third one but yeah it's still around my point. I was just saying that you can do everything the A-stick allows you to in more or less a similar fashion.

The pivoting stuff is obviously way more difficult normally but you can just grind it out and figure out how to pivot. Practice makes perfect, you know? No one gets ground released pivot regrabs over night (I still can't get that **** often but it's certainly a lot more common thanks to practicing).

I can't front though, pivoting is rough but it is pretty beneficial, Dre is right
I thought A-sticking was the only way to dair without FFing. My bad.

I'm pretty sure dair is safe if you space the landing hitbox. I'm not sure how you guys use it, but I space it so that I hit them only with the landing hitbox, with side of the shell rather than coming down on them with the spikes. I pretty much never hit with the aerial component of dair. I should probably start using the aerial component on shielding opponents so they fall of the edge of the stage.

As for landing bombs, I can land quite a few depending on who I am versing, but I said just one a set to be conservative. Plus, you were the one who always used to say that crap like bombing people on the ledge didn't work lol.

You could practice pivotting, but the question is if it's really worth it. Being able to consistently pivot stuff like jabs mid-match out of buffering on the fly would require an insane amount of practice. You might as well just A-stick pivot, which requires far less practice, and then spend more time practicing grab releases.

What do you lose by using A-sticking? I think stutter step fsmash, and I think SDI too?

I'm considering A-sticking. I think pivot tilts are too good for Bowser to pass up.
 

Cassius.

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I'll respond to that later because I'm about to sleep but I wanna drop this here:

Im sure its happened to all of us--we get an upb (on the ground) and our opp ends up on the ground instead of the air? What exactly is that? Horrible sdi?

I think it was answered before but I wasnt paying attention/cant remember

:phone:
 

Z'zgashi

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If the opponent tries to short hop dair or something right as we do our up b, itll hit them while theyre in the air, and will make them di slightly to the ground creating that, so yes, basically unintentional horrible di.
 

Cassius.

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impulse, maybe? I feel like that can't be the only way you could get that situation. that's pretty weird..
 

Dre89

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I randomly stumbled upon this old thread, in which the OP says that with B-sticking you don't need to jump after klawing in a klaw hop, because it apparently does the jump for you.

I tried it out of curiousity/boredom, but I couldn't get it work. Does this work or is he incorrect? The only thing I could do was if I klawed, pressing the C stick again made me jump, so I could effectively double tap the C stick to klaw hop.

I know it's not actually helpful even if it's true but I'm just curious.

Edit- I got it to work, you just have to press it much later. It's basically a worse form of kaw hopping than the default method because it's more frame-tight.
 

teluoborg

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Yeah Bsticking and Asticking are both recorded in the game as "direction + special/attack + jump".
No one knows wtf the jump input is doing here, but it explains why it jumps automatically when you B stick close enough to the ground (the klaw is canceled and the jump is read as a buffer).
impulse, maybe? I feel like that can't be the only way you could get that situation. that's pretty weird..
You know those times when up B hits twice (yummy 16%) ? My take is that the second hit can be SDI'd since they've already been sent up by the first.

Kind of like you can SDI (to tech lol) the third hit of MK's Ftilt if he delays it.
 
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