Kirby vs Falco Matchup

[SpikeSpiegel19]

Basically this thread is for serious discussion of Kirby as a counter to Falco.

First off Kirby can combo Falco to 50 damage, which at the same time puts him off the edge. From there Kirby's Bair and Dair can hit Falco even while he uses forward B so recovery is difficult for Falco. Not to mention he has such a short upB and the windup is to long to get him to the edge b4 Kirby can use an aerial on him.

Second: Kirby can break out of Falco's Chainthrow. Kirby's unusual amount of DI allows him to break free of many combos.

Third: Kirby can't be camped b/c all he has to do is duck. Some my pose the claim that he eventually has to get up. Kirby has a special walk i call the crouching walk. Basically he can move forward while being in the crouch position for 50% of the time instead of the normal 100% required for walking or running.

Fourth: Kirby's 5 jumps makes him much harder than other characters to spike. Pluse his upB is an excellent meteor cancel

Fifth: Falco can b gimped by Kirby's neutral B itself. Kirby can fall with Falco still in his mouth far away enough from the edge to make recovery impossible for Falco while still being able to recover himself.


Basically Kirby has what it takes to counter the space animals. His most difficult match up against the space animals is Falco due to his downspike and fast moves but these strengths don't outweigh his weaknesses against Kirby.

If ur an easy coast Falco who would like to play some matches with me to shed some light on this matchup PM me and we can setup a time to play and i'll try to record the matches

 

[wasabicheese]

kirby can pwn falco, SHTL=dead bird.

 

[edde]

chars that have gimp potential have a great advantage on falco... mostly like MK, but kirby is a diff story, he is too small, which means, if you shdl you need to do the most precise to the ground second bullet, else it wont hit him... also, kirby has broken smashes, good specials, can get a hand of falco's bullets and hammer is lethal + his grab game is really solid, i think his uthrow does 12%+

now... i only see falco have advantages as: reflector for urgent spacing which isnt that good, very few % of chaingrab, and falco's jump speed which is his main strenght on most tough matchups and situations

id handle a kirby carefully, mainly with attacks like nair, and surprise him with very short jumped sidebs for an extra small damage with few end lag

 

[SlashTalon]

First off Kirby can combo Falco to 50 damage, which at the same time puts him off the edge. From there Kirby's Bair and Dair can hit Falco even while he uses forward B so recovery is difficult for Falco. Not to mention he has such a short upB and the windup is to long to get him to the edge b4 Kirby can use an aerial on him.

Well obviously I can use everyone's favorite excuse: Don't get grabbed. But as we both know at high levels (especially high levels) that's a bit impossible. Anyway, easiest thing is to just avoid grabs and do what Falco does best: camp. Sweetspotting the edge with Falco's side B gives him Invincibility frames right at the ledge due to the autosnap feature in Brawl. It's a good combo, but getting grabbed by Falco also means an easy 30-50% even with good DI, Dthrow-Dair-grab-Dthrow-gattling combo.

Second: Kirby can break out of Falco's Chainthrow. Kirby's unusual amount of DI allows him to break free of many combos.

Again, getting grabbed by Falco also means an easy 30-50% even with good DI, Dthrow-Dair-grab-Dthrow-gattling combo. A skilled falco can buffer the CG so that the CG will still be made to atleast 3 throws.

Third: Kirby can't be camped b/c all he has to do is duck. Some my pose the claim that he eventually has to get up. Kirby has a special walk i call the crouching walk. Basically he can move forward while being in the crouch position for 50% of the time instead of the normal 100% required for walking or running.

I see this limiting Kirby more than Falco. Falco's SHno-lagLasers hit Kirbz in the face and because the lasers have no lag Falco can do any move IMMEDIATELY after the laser. All Falco has to do to a crouching Kirby is Dair, shine, or immediate SHSideB. Kirby can be camped. Falco's lasers are just too good. All Falco has to do is space.

Fourth: Kirby's 5 jumps makes him much harder than other characters to spike. Pluse his upB is an excellent meteor cancel

His UpB is VERY predictable though. I mean its Ike's without superarmor or a hitbox above...
That means its very spikable, and also easily edgehogged with proper timing.

Fifth: Falco can b gimped by Kirby's neutral B itself. Kirby can fall with Falco still in his mouth far away enough from the edge to make recovery impossible for Falco while still being able to recover himself.

Very situational. Falco can just not chase Kirby off the edge...I mean who would? Same reason to not chase MK.

Basically Kirby has what it takes to counter the space animals. His most difficult match up against the space animals is Falco due to his downspike and fast moves but these strengths don't outweigh his weaknesses against Kirby.

If ur an easy coast Falco who would like to play some matches with me to shed some light on this matchup PM me and we can setup a time to play and i'll try to record the matches[/QUOTE]

All in all I think a skilled Kirby can give Falco trouble, though I will disagree that it is a counter. Kirby is lighter than Falco, Falco racks up damage fast, and his Bair+Dair destroys Kirby. Ftilts also outrage Kirby's moves and it clanks with Kirby's Fsmash. If Im not mistaken so does Falco's neutral combo. A Falco playing Kirby like he's playing a large character is going do get owned, but a Falco playing smart will give Kirby trouble.

You going to CH3, Gonz?
And just so you know this is just a friendly debate, I respect your opinion and knowledge.

 

[zamz]

Second: Kirby can break out of Falco's Chainthrow. Kirby's unusual amount of DI allows him to break free of many combos.

I'm just fine with grabbing, hitting several times, D-throwing and then comboing into an U-smash. You'll see this works and it does it's fair share of damage. A good Falco will always make their throws count.

Third: Kirby can't be camped b/c all he has to do is duck. Some my pose the claim that he eventually has to get up. Kirby has a special walk i call the crouching walk. Basically he can move forward while being in the crouch position for 50% of the time instead of the normal 100% required for walking or running.

I hate this arguement. Crouching is not the end-all proof that decides if Falco can handle a character or not. Snake undoubtably has a better duck than Kirby. Snake can crawl, plus his attack has an extremely long range. This makes his duck ungodly. Yet you'll see Snake is either considered an equal, or Falco advantaged, matchup. Crouching does not determine a matchup. It's useless and there are hundreds of things we can do to combat it.

Crouching makes you a sitting duck, where you can't move effectively and we have full movement. You might find limited movement an advantage. I don't.

Fourth: Kirby's 5 jumps makes him much harder than other characters to spike. Pluse his upB is an excellent meteor cancel

And his lightness makes him much easier than other characters to U-Smash. Spiking isn't Falco's only way to stock someone. A good Falco will use spikes to do damage, or to set Kirby into a vulnerable position. Kirby is highly prone to being ground-spiked into the air and comboed into a B-air.

Fifth: Falco can b gimped by Kirby's neutral B itself. Kirby can fall with Falco still in his mouth far away enough from the edge to make recovery impossible for Falco while still being able to recover himself.

Falco can be gimped far worse by MetaKnight than Kirby. Kirby's ability to gimp Falco isn't large enough to break this matchup. Hell, every character can gimp Falco relatively easily. It's old news and good Falcos get around it. As for Neutral-B, Falco can mash enough buttons to get out of your attack pretty quickly. Unless Falco is already hundreds of % hurt, he'll break out before you gimp him every time. By the time you can gimp him in this matter, you can pretty much stock him with any strong move.

----

Summary? There are characters who can do what Kirby does best, better than Kirby. Those are the characters Falco needs to worry about. If the ability to crouch, with the ability to gimp and perhaps a potential chance to combo to 50% is enough to give a character an advantage, then almost every character in this game should have a better matchup than Falco.

I'm not saying Kirby is a bad character. He's definitely good. But he's not bringing anything new to the table. Almost every character in the game can make the same claims you've made in this thread. As far as I'm concerned, Kirby is just a MetaKnight clone with less going for him.

 

[clowsui]

Let's go to this town on this stupid mofo -_-
The matchup is 50-50, "serious counter" implies a 70-30 matchup.
Let me get this straight with you, kid:

- Falco is not only reliant on lasers for pressure play. He has grabs (DThrow, one of the best throws in the game because it serves not only as a chaingrab on many characters but an easy set up to pressure people into making stupid mistakes), good tilts (Ftilt and Utilt come to mind), good spacing move (Shine + Phantasm), a ridiculously fast horizontal recovery (Phantasm), and a good aerial or two for shield pressure (AC Dair and Nair)

- Falco is not reliant on the CG to get damage on people. I don't even have to mention all of his options because he has way too many.

- Falco does not need to kill people with the spike. All these percentages estimates are based on the fact that Kirby usually dies below 100 to vert moves unless I'm wrong. These all also assume that a move is at around 80-100% power

USmash on Kirby kills him at around 80% - 90%
FSmash on Kirby, put laser pressure on him. OH WAIT CROUCH WAL - too bad you're in the air, stupid. Have fun losing your jumps and getting Fair gimped at the end or...wait, spiked.
Dsmash on Kirby puts him at a low angle...if he has higher percents this will work, just wait for him to start jumping up, hug at the right moment and voila...
UTilt - Bair Ridiculously fast (as you can see in my bad video vs. Kel) and kills at around 90-100
Utilt - Bait the airdodge/Aerial - Uair will kill Kirby at high 80s

Basically this thread is for serious discussion of Kirby as a counter to Falco.

First off Kirby can combo Falco to 50 damage, which at the same time puts him off the edge. From there Kirby's Bair and Dair can hit Falco even while he uses forward B so recovery is difficult for Falco. Not to mention he has such a short upB and the windup is to long to get him to the edge b4 Kirby can use an aerial on him.

(Wait, wait wait..."combo" to 50 damage? Do you mean CG'd or what? Clarify here because I'm honestly not seeing it. You're underestimating how fast Phantasm is.)

Second: Kirby can break out of Falco's Chainthrow. Kirby's unusual amount of DI allows him to break free of many combos.

(....GOD **** IT THE CHAINGRAB IS NOT A COMBO. HOLY F*CK KID. Also it doesn't matter if I can't chain throw, I can boost smash you afterwards before you can do anything or gatling combo you -_- I can also laser you, Nair last hit you (if you're at a high enough %) for a laser lock, phantasm then pivot laser...I can also run up, shield -> spotdodge and then punish whatever you're going to do...yeah. What options do you have? Oh, what was that? Nair (which is easily shielded)? What was that, Fair (which I can punish you for)? UAir (which won't hit me?) Right.)

Third: Kirby can't be camped b/c all he has to do is duck. Some my pose the claim that he eventually has to get up. Kirby has a special walk i call the crouching walk. Basically he can move forward while being in the crouch position for 50% of the time instead of the normal 100% required for walking or running.

(You think that the crouching walk destroys Falco, eh? Try playing Falco against Snake or Wigi. "OH NOES THEY HAVE A CROUCHING WALK THEY BEAT FALCO" Falco's matchup with Snake is 50-50. Besides, if Kirby gets too close then the Falco can just shine, sit back and start camping again. Eventually you have to get up and then you eat some lasers and then you eat more lasers in the air when Falco shoots you.)

Fourth: Kirby's 5 jumps makes him much harder than other characters to spike. Pluse his upB is an excellent meteor cancel

(Above.)

Fifth: Falco can b gimped by Kirby's neutral B itself. Kirby can fall with Falco still in his mouth far away enough from the edge to make recovery impossible for Falco while still being able to recover himself.

(1. You can see Swallow from a mile away
2. Unless you're at super high percent mashing is an option, if you're about to get stage spiked then you get stage spiked, nothing you can do about it since it has no hitlag. If you get stage spiked that'll only work at high percent anyways, you can just jump -> wall jump -> Phantasm or Firebird on most stages.)

Basically Kirby has what it takes to counter the space animals. His most difficult match up against the space animals is Falco due to his downspike and fast moves but these strengths don't outweigh his weaknesses against Kirby.

(I just disproved all of these "weaknesses" of yours. Stop touting Kirby as a character that is a counter at all, he isn't).

If ur an easy coast Falco who would like to play some matches with me to shed some light on this matchup PM me and we can setup a time to play and i'll try to record the matches

(You think vids from LagFi will prove us wrong? Yeah right. Go play D1, PC, Keitaro or FTB in a tournament, record the match and see how you do. Hell, even ask Hylian to play at CH3 ^_^ I'm sure his 5 day old Falco will beat your Kirby in the face with a proverbial club.)

 

[SpikeSpiegel19]

No i think vids with no lag will help. Lag pwns Kirby so id only offer to play against people who live on the east coast so that there would b no lag.

KIrby can't get hit by lazer when he's crouching. Even a SH no lag lazer can't hit him. And Kirby can live far beyond 100%. my average death damage is close to 140%. U may think this isn't possible but Kirby's DI lets him effect his recovery enough to live to very high percentages.

 

[SpikeSpiegel19]

lol clowsui u have no idea just how good Kirby really is. Ur underestimating him waaay to much. There is nothing more i can say here. If u want me to play against them thats fine. If thats what it takes to show Kirby has advantage. R they going to CH3 cuz i will b there.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Kirby vs Falco is 50/50, against Fox it's 60/40 and Wolf it's 55/45

 

[clowsui]

I'm pretty sure Hylian is going to CH3.

I'm waiting to see you get into top 10.

I never once said that Kirby gets hit by lasers while crouching. I said that if Falco shines and pushes you away, he can just start camping again (phantasm to the other side, lasers.) A war of patience =)

WiFi always has lag, whether it be just a couple of frames it will affect you.

"Underestimating" Kirby? I never once claimed he was a bad character nor that the matchup was bad for Kirby, I just corrected you stance so that it was 50-50, not 70-30.

Learn to read.

 

[redgreenblue]

Kirby is NOT an effective counter against falco. SH immediate phantasm will rip through most of what kirby has, and Falco's Dair and Bair outprioritize all of kirby's aerials and are equal to his smashes. Kirby has a combo to get Falco to 50%? Don't get caught in it. Camp the kirby to 50% because he gets you to it. Kirby is extremely light and some utilts and usmashes will not only kill him at around ~85%, but below that percentage will toss him up in the air and set up falco for a uair kill. Kirby CANNOT defend against uair. Only airdodge. If he airdodges, fast fall the uair and do another uair. Seriously.

The kirby matches you played against the falco were AWFUL. Falco's edgeguarding game was shooting lasers. AT A KIRBY WTF?! Awful falco play. He had some good moments, like with the spike, but seriously... I don't think he used bair once.

In short, just because you are good with kirby and you beat your friend's falco (whom he doesn't even main) doesn't mean kirby is a counter. I've never had trouble with kirby and I've faced some seriously good kirbys (kirbies?).

 

[clowsui]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vXgB0QpbcFg

Oh, what was that? You got beat by a Space Animal that is arguably the easiest to gimp?

Right.

 

[Dpete]

Wow, let's not take things too personally. Its just a matchup guys, no point in attacking people.

In the Kirby forums we originally had this as 70-30, but currently we have it at 60-40. As the OP of Kirby's matchup thread I like to have as much info available to me to help decide the ratings. So while this thread might be tempting to just blow off or bash Gonzo, let's try to make it constructive so we can make this an accurate matchup.

What do you think of the aerial matchup? Most Kirby mains like to utilize his great air game, how does Falco's compare?

 

[Hylian]

This guy obviously doesn't really know what he is talking about, and is just saying this stuff from either personal experience or a very small thought process.

I am about to go off to a tournament but I would like to point one thing out.


What the **** do you mean when you say Kirby has good DI? DI is the same for every character. I find it hard to take anything you say seriously when you don't know simple game mechanics.

Falco's tilt game makes kirby's life hell. Lasers don't even have to hit kirby, they are useful for positional advantage and to keep kirby immobile. Falco can camp kirby easily with lasers and phantasm. Kirby has a good grab game against Falco, but Falco has a better one against Kirby. Dair set-ups to galting combo's are too good.


I will go more in-depth later. Leaving now.

 

[clowsui]

Wow, let's not take things too personally. Its just a matchup guys, no point in attacking people.

In the Kirby forums we originally had this as 70-30, but currently we have it at 60-40. As the OP of Kirby's matchup thread I like to have as much info available to me to help decide the ratings. So while this thread might be tempting to just blow off or bash Gonzo, let's try to make it constructive so we can make this an accurate matchup.

What do you think of the aerial matchup? Most Kirby mains like to utilize his great air game, how does Falco's compare?

I'm just kind of pissed off that someone who doesn't even main Falco comes in here and makes obviously incorrect claims and says that Kirby has a 70-30 matchup. What the ****? At least put it at 50-50 for the moment and put your opinion on why you should say it's 70-30 by your opinion -_-

Falco's air game is the following...I don't know that much about Kirby's so you're going to have to show [me] your moves Don't even make comparisons yet, just show us your moves. /lame puns

Nair, Uair, Bair, Dair - Four Primary Aerials. These possess at least two of the following traits (all of them)

1. Priority
2. Range
3. Power
4. Setup Strength

Falco's Nair - 1 and 4. Sets up into laserlock and combos nicely, eats through a lot of attacks.
Falco's Bair - 1., 2., 3. and 4. Kills, usually leads into another Bair or if you're on the ground an F/Usmash, is a sex kick so it has a lot of range and outprioritizes a lot of moves
Falco's Dair - 1., 2., 3. and 4. Excellent killing potential, reaches under very well, tacks on quite a bit of percent (for Falco, at least - 12-14%? I think) and sets up for aerials and tilts very well
Falco's UAir - 2., 3. - Falco's UAir reaches in an arc above him, which is surprisingly wide, and kills most light characters at around 90.

And of, course, the laser as an aerial tool, which is ridiculously good at pressuring multi-jumps on the recovery, great for exploiting aerial positioning if you have a double jump left, and tacks on a good 3-4 percent every time to boot ^_^

 

[SpikeSpiegel19]

For example, this is what i mean by good DI, prob not the best word to use (good), use SHFair with Wolf for example and hold forwards but then DI back. U can't effect the already input'd DI. KIrby on the other hand can start the attack DI'ing forward and then choose to DI backwards and have considerable movement. Thats what i mean.

And Falco doesnt have priority on Kirby's Bair my friend. That move has priority over ur Forward B thats like some G&W ****. I'll take back what i said about 70-30 b/c thats all my experience shows me. 50/50 is fair for the time being.

And me getting pwnd by space animal. No jones, everyone has bad days. Candy was playing sick as **** that day and i wasn't no one beat him for the entire day that day.

 

[~Shao~]

Since nobody answered clowsui question (I think...). The combo Gonzo mentioned is grab, f-throw, u-air, f-throw, u-air into forward smash, if not staled, this does 51% and I'd say it's pretty much inescapable or very hard to escape. Hope this helped.

 

[BEES]

Right, let's deal with this.

Kirby's chainthrow combo does not confer that much of a strategic advantage. It's not a 0-death combo, it just builds damage. Falco's dthrow chaingrab does the same. Kirby's too light for it to be lethal against him.

And Falco doesnt have priority on Kirby's Bair my friend. That move has priority over ur Forward B thats like some G&W ****. I'll take back what i said about 70-30 b/c thats all my experience shows me. 50/50 is fair for the time being.

The phantasm is not a high priority move. Does it have priority over Falco's aerials?

We really just need to determine this empirically with some matches.

 

[Colbert]

Kirby's ability to gimp Falco isn't large enough to break this matchup. Hell, every character can gimp Falco relatively easily. It's old news and good Falcos get around it.

I honestly do not see exactly how Falco can get around such a good gimper as Kirby. Up b is obviously just asking to be daired, baired, edgehogged, etc. Side B is fast, but extremely predictable and gets cut through extremely easily. Because it is so predictable, getting hit with a bair, inhale, or even a dair is not uncommon at all.

As for Neutral-B, Falco can mash enough buttons to get out of your attack pretty quickly. Unless Falco is already hundreds of % hurt, he'll break out before you gimp him every time.


Wrong. Kirby can easily gimp Falco with Inhale starting at about 25 percent. Remember we are talking about inhaling while Falco is trying to recover and either spitting them out somewhere too far (under the stage, out of Up B range) or letting them break out low at the very top of the pit (which actually works better at 20-45 percent). After about 40, Kirby can get Falco from the edge of the stage without too much of a problems

~~~

What exactly can Falco do with his dthrow/ followups when it comes to knockback and damage? Can he rack up more than 50 percent?

 

[SlashTalon]

What the **** do you mean when you say Kirby has good DI? DI is the same for every character. I find it hard to take anything you say seriously when you don't know simple game mechanics.

For example, this is what i mean by good DI, prob not the best word to use (good), use SHFair with Wolf for example and hold forwards but then DI back. U can't effect the already input'd DI. KIrby on the other hand can start the attack DI'ing forward and then choose to DI backwards and have considerable movement. Thats what i mean.

I think he means Aerial movement. As in Wario has better DI (Aerial movement) than DK.
That makes more sense at least.

And Falco doesnt have priority on Kirby's Bair my friend. That move has priority over ur Forward B thats like some G&W ****. I'll take back what i said about 70-30 b/c thats all my experience shows me. 50/50 is fair for the time being.

Falco's Forward B doesnt have alot of priority at all, its just fast. Moves will sometimes hit the illusions instead of Falco himself.

 

[wangston]

I would say the best thing kirby has is his chain grab thing he has where he throws, uair, throw, uair, f smash. It seemed to me with proper DI kirby wouldn't hit me with the fsmash or maybe the kirby I was playing had trouble timing it. Also if he tried for a 3rd grab, he could never get it. As long as kirby is below 50% i have always been able to buffer a dash and dair into a dsmash or another move of my choice which is great for putting on damage. And when ever I get close to kirby I AAA combo or ftilt so it always cancels out his fsmash. Kirby is for a hard match up but I do not think he has a massive advantage over falco.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Does Kirby have anything to get around Falco's up tilt, jabs, forward tilt, neutral air, down airs? Falco's not just chain grabs, spikes and lasers. I hate that misconception. Just seems to me like Falco's got all the aerial and ground priority over him. Falco can be gimped, and chain grab isn't quite as effective, but it still feels pretty even.

 

[homicidalrapist]

sigh..... why do other mains go into other character's boards to whine or claim that their character beats another. Really, if we don't say anything about how a kirby may beat a falco, then we don't care. this should have been kept in the kirby forum.

 

[Dpete]

sigh..... why do other mains go into other character's boards to whine or claim that their character beats another. Really, if we don't say anything about how a kirby may beat a falco, then we don't care. this should have been kept in the kirby forum.

I 100% disagree with this statement. If we keep it locked up in the Kirby boards, we can come to misconceptions that Falco is only about CG's, lasers, and spikes, as someone stated above. By getting opinions from the people that know both characters the best, we can solidify how people perceive the matchup. Just because you're not talking about it doesn't mean it isn't an issue. This thread probably informed a lot of people about how a lesser used character such as Kirby might be a threat, even if they haven't played a good Kirby before.

Before this thread, I thought the matchup was in Kirby's favor; now I see it better from the Falco main's perspective, which convinced me that it was a neutral matchup.

 

[SpikeSpiegel19]

Kirby's Bair doesn't have priority on phantasm its 50/50 but Kirby's Dair can also hit Falco while he uses phantasm which basically means if u phantasm for the ledge or just above it Falco just lost a stock


and the reason the combo is so effective is that it puts Falco of the edge and allows Kirby a number of options for gimping Falco, for one Kirby's upB can keep pushing Falco away from the edge while he tries to recover, two his Bair can WOP, three dair will spike Falco out of his recovery, 4 in the case Falco does make it back on the stage Kirby can setup a number of two hit combos to put Falco off the stage again, for example neutral Air to neutral is a two hit combo that would setup for Fsmash or push Falco back off the edge, dtilt to FSmash would almost kill falco b/c he would be at 80 or above at this point in the match.

This is my basic Falco strategy and not to say its foolproof b/c no strategy is but it works pretty **** well. Its all dependent on the grab at 0 As long as Falco can avoid being grabbed and build up damage on Kirby Kirby is gonna have a tough time keeping up. Thats y at the very least i think Falco vs Kirby is even and at best 60-40 for Kirby but i'm thinking this should stay eben till both sides have had more varied experience

 

[Dpete]

I hate to revive this topic because it obviously wasn't presented in the best way. Nonetheless, the Kirby vs Falco matchup still needs some attention IMO. I want to point out that the Kirby boards are conducting a weekly review on each character, and this week is dedicated to Falco. So if you can spare a second, please drop by our boards and leave your opinion on this matchup. You can find the link to the thread in my sig. Thanks~

 

[Red.Tide]

lol@ people saying things like "well, Kirby's light" "upsmash kills Kirby at 80-90%"

Kirby is lighter than Falco.
However, Kirby kills Falco earlier than Falco kills Kirby.

Falco's usmash kills Kirby, on FD, at 108%.
Kirby's kills Falco at 95%.

Falco's only move that kills earlier than usmash is fsmash, at 96%.

Kirby kills Falco with ground hammer at 77%, fsmash at 86%, stone at 96%, aerial hammer at 109% (first hit) and 92%, as well as his usmash at 95%, like i said earlier.

All moves are done from center of FD, no stale moves, no DI.

Also, Kirby's bair outprioritizes Falco's aerials, particularly Falco's bair AND outprioritizes Falco's ftilt (even I was surprised at that)


I don't think Kirby is a massive Falco counter, I think it is neutral, or Kirby has a slight advantage. On the matchup chart, however, it says that Falco has an advantage over Kirby.

 

[Dpete]

Actually, now that I look at it, Kirby does have an advantage over Falco. The only real advantage Falco had over Kirby was on the ground, and it's obvious that even that is in question now. Kirby ***** him in the air, his grab game is better, he can at least punish Falco's recovery if not kill him out of it, and has better KO power than Falco. Advantage: Kirby.

 

[BEES]

sigh..... why do other mains go into other character's boards to whine or claim that their character beats another. Really, if we don't say anything about how a kirby may beat a falco, then we don't care. this should have been kept in the kirby forum.

This is the only time I've seen it, and hey I appreciate the debate. It probably is a relatively even matchup, if we're having it. Some of these kirby mains though... are not looking at the matchup very objectively.

The ones that are, and are just trying to understand their character better, have my infinite respect though. I wouldn't want to have to fight them.

 

[psykoplympton]

the fact of the matter is kirby can steal falcos bread when he gets his lasers. its only a crumb of bread however but leads to massive powers

 

[Colbert]

Kirby has an easier time KOing than Falco.

All testing was from the exact middle of Final Destination. Kirby tested on Falco and Falco tested on Kirby.

Fsmash
Kirby kills Falco at 92
Falco kills Kirby at 102

Usmash
Kirby kills Falco at 95
Falco kills Kirby at 109

Dsmash
Kirby kills Falco off the top at 105
Kirby kills Falco off the side at 125
Falco kills Kirby at 143

Bair
Kirby kills Falco at 125
Falco kills Kirby at 132

Individual

First hit of Aerial Hammer kills Falco at 110

Second hit of Aerial Hammer kills Falco at 99, but at 85 Falco is so low that he must use UpB to recover. At 89, Falco's UpB doesn't reach the stage even without edgehogging.

Stone kills Falco at 95 percent

Falco can kill Kirby from a full jump at 130 with a sweetspotted uair. This is the only advantage I could find.


...Throw in Kirby's easy time gimping Falco

and

Inhale + spitting just low enough for Falco to have to use his UpB -> dairs

and then it is clear that Kirby has a much easier time getting the KO than Falco. Not only does Kirby have stronger smashes; he also has more KO moves/ options.

 

[Colbert]

This was also posted in the Kirby matchup thread, when it was time to discuss Falco.


I think that both parties will agree that once Falco is put into a position where he is forced to use his UpB, he is extremely easy to gimp. It gets cut through, can be easily edgehogged, and can be repeatedly spiked by Kirby's dair.

The real argument comes from Falco users saying that they will not be put into a position where they would be forced to use their UpB. This is wrong.

Falco can easily be put below, or slightly below, stage level in a variety of ways. He can be placed there by Kirby via inhale and be hit during a Phantasm, which are to my knowledge the most common and reliable ways to get him down there.

1) Inhale: Saying "Falco will never get inhaled" is even more preposterous than saying he won't get grabbed. It's just not going to happen in competitive play. Not only does inhale have an easy time landing on it's own, it can be used with a grab combo. Even at extremely low percents, Kirby has enough time to spit below stage level, or even underneath the stage. Kirby can obviously do this from 0 percent when inhaling from off the stage, and has enough time to do it to Falco from about 20 percent on. Inhale is also not hard to connect with during Falco's phantasm, as Deg stated. Which brings me to my next point...

2) Cutting through Phantasm: There are so many ways for Kirby to cut through Phantasm, and it is not hard due to the predictability of the move. As long as Falco doesn't want to get owned, he will either try to sweetspot the edge or go just above the edge with this move. If Falco already uses his mid-air jump, it is obvious exactly when and where Falco will be using his sideb, when it comes to both height and distance from the stage. Because of this, the speed of the move does not matter and Kirby can already plan on a counter before the move is executed.


The most devastating way to gimp this is with inhale, but that does not make it the easiest. Getting the height down on this isn't hard by any means, just the planning. A small limitation is that it may be difficult to do this type of gimp if you are not near the edge that you hit them out from (it is helpful to already be near the edge that you hit them out from). Because it is a long lasting move, this greatly benefits Kirby. Once Falco finds himself in Kirby's mouth, he can be spat out below and far enough that UpB won't reach. Keep in mind that Kirby also has an easy time inhaling from off the stage and spitting underneath the stage platform, even at 0 percent.

Bair is also a very effective way, but a bit risky. A small timing error could mean a spike, but Kirby can recover from these with a low risk of harm. Either way, bair is a very quick move and the predictability of Phantasm allows it to connect. Jumping all the way out to the point where Falco actually uses his side b is effective and a Falco can't do much about this, especially from far away when this applys most. Hammer works in the same way, but is harder to do from far out. Somehow, some players have an easier time landing the hammer as opposed to the bair in this situation. **Remember: The point of this is just to hit so that Falco drops from his initial side b height. Because this height is either exactly lined up with the edge or right above, this is enough to put Falco below the stage.

Dair works in a similar way as bair. The only difference is that it takes more time to get yourself in position, but not by much. Even though Kirby already knows the height and distance that Falco will be phantasming from, he also needs to make sure he is above at the correct distance, but doesnt need as much precise timing due to nature of dair. Just one hit is enough to put Falco below the stage. More straightforward and devastating but a tiny bit harder to do.

Down B is pretty much out of the question for Kirby because placement would have to be extremely precise and would have to be executed with extremely nice planning. It's still possible to edgeguard with this however, and can be possibly executed on stages like Yoshi's Island.

Up B is a choice that often gets overlooked, and is extremely effective especially when you're trying to change it up from the bairs. The slicing from the blade is fast enough to usually stop Falco, and the projectile is large enough to hit Falco whether he is aiming above the stage or at the edge. Extremely useful; low risk, high reward.

Fsmash is extremely effective and easy to connect with if Falco chooses to recover slightly above the stage, due to its huge priority. Unfortunately, from a mental point of view, you would have to eliminate the above stage phantasm before you start guarding the edge sweetspotted phantasm.

Laser: By far the easiest and most effective way, but also the most situational. Stealing Falco's laser is very helpful in these situations and is very easy to land no matter what the height or distance is.

 

[Colbert]

Oops, double post.

 

[BEES]

Colbert, those numbers are not indicative of the matchup. As a slightly faster character, it makes sense for Falco to have slightly less powerful killing attacks. That's how the game is balanced.

Though it is interesting that Dair is mysteriously absent from the equation.

 

[Colbert]

Falco's Dair is a spike, just like Kirby's dair.

It is pretty odd for a Falco to be able to spike Kirby, and it is meteor cancelable at mid-low percents.

Kirby's dair, however, will be able to hit multiple times if Falco tries to come back up due to the nature of Falco's UpB and only one jump. Keep in mind that Kirby can also fastfall his dair and footstool afterwards. Also keep in mind that it only takes one hit of Kirby's multi-hit drillkick to send downwards.

Since Falco isn't going to come out and chase Kirby all the way off the stage, it is easy for Kirby to just avoid and air dodge around the spots that Falco would try to dair from.

Also, I don't really see why you consider Falco to be a faster character. Falco doesn't have more combo potential than Kirby, probably doesn't have a faster run speed, and has a slower fsmash, about the same speed dsmash, and a slightly faster usmash. The point is that Falco can't really take advantage of Kirby's light weight at all, while Kirby benefits from Falco's fast falling speed..

 

[BEES]

Meteor canceling is not in Brawl. Falco moves around faster, and many of his attacks initiate with less lag. To set you straight on combos, may I redirect you to this thread:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=168036

Probably part of the reason Kirby has a better time against Fox is that he cannot jump as high. In order to attack or chase Kirby from the air, he has to use that second jump a lot more, while Falco can often save it for mindgames. Jumping and falling fast, and being able to pursue Kirby higher above the stage, possibly gives Falco better vertical attack lines.

Don't know about horizontal, but I'm willing to bet Kirby's good in that area.

 

[Colbert]

Most Kirby's when defending themselves from above will just use stone against those agressive players. This is the best and easiest way to punish those extremely agressive Shuttle Looping Metaknights.

Anyway, the point is that Kirby has at least as easy a time comboing as Falco. I don't understand why you say that "Falco moves around faster" and "his attack initiate with less lag". His best killing smash is slower than ours and weaker. I don't see much speed difference in Falco's favor at all with specific moves.

This isn't a DK vs. Fox matchup where DK will try and say "we're stronger" and Fox will say "we're faster". Yes, I know this is a pretty bad example. <_<

 

[§witch]

I love how everyone underestimates falco. Falco has dthrow dair dthrow gaitling combo for +50. Also, combert, his best killing smash isn't used alot, mostly for killing, so you're not using it in a situation where it won't hit.

 

[BEES]

I'm obviously not going to change your mind, Colbert. I merely insist that the matchup is very tedious and punishing and evenly matched between the two characters.

I strongly recommend rethinking whether you'll ever get spiked. Around 60%, if you find yourself in this area, I suggest watching out.

 

[MK26]

lol at huge photo taken out of context with unfinished caption and bad cover-up job

Bees, about your photo, the majority of Falco gimp kills from d-throw chaingrabs are successful because the opponent is unable to recover from such a low spot. Even if a Kirby is in the low 80s, he can jump before he hits the lower blastline. And if Kirby can jump, Kirby can recover. I respect the fact that the spike puts Kirby into an unfavourable position, but most of the time Kirby can recover even without the use of his up-B.

So really what sets Kirby apart and negates one of Falco's main strategies is:

1) You're not going to get more than 3 throws on Kirby anyways, so just try to chaingrab him to the ledge.

2) Even if you grab him and you're facing away from the centre of the stage, you need to have a fair amount of damage on him for the kill.

1+2 = no gimping

---

So basically the Kirby boards have gotten this thing down to either 60-40 Kirby or 55-45. If you want to argue, check the Kirby Matchup Rankings thread, approximately pages 26-28 for the meat of the argument. 29 and 30 was basically me 'n' Colbert yelling at each other.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176103

This will be over soon, so get there while you can.