Social Kirby & The Amazing Cats

[|RK|]

Can someone tell me why Final Cutter just doesn't grab the ledge sometimes? I've been losing matches because of it.

 

[Delzethin]

I couldn't find a dedicated stage thread--just the matchup thread doing minor stage talk for each matchup. I figured here would be the best place to ask.

What stages do you feel Kirby does best on, and what stage elements help or hinder him? The best I can think of is that platforms and distant blast zones are good, but I only know so much. Could someone more informed give me a hand?

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Can someone tell me why Final Cutter just doesn't grab the ledge sometimes? I've been losing matches because of it.

Final Cutter doesn't grab ledges if you're rising up, are facing backwards, or holding down as you pass the ledge. Other than that, I'm not sure.

I couldn't find a dedicated stage thread--just the matchup thread doing minor stage talk for each matchup. I figured here would be the best place to ask.

What stages do you feel Kirby does best on, and what stage elements help or hinder him? The best I can think of is that platforms and distant blast zones are good, but I only know so much. Could someone more informed give me a hand?

I'd say Kirby does best on Smashville, Town and City, and Final Destination. I wouldn't recommend platforms like Battlefield or Lylat, though. You should go for medium blast zones, as ones too closed, such as Halberd, will have you die early, while ones too distant, such as Kongo Jungle, won't let you ever close stocks.

 

[|RK|]

Final Cutter doesn't grab ledges if you're rising up, are facing backwards, or holding down as you pass the ledge. Other than that, I'm not sure.

I guess of all of those things, pressing down seems to be the most likely. But that's weird, because I'm pretty sure I'm not doing it.

 

[Delzethin]

I'd say Kirby does best on Smashville, Town and City, and Final Destination. I wouldn't recommend platforms like Battlefield or Lylat, though. You should go for medium blast zones, as ones too closed, such as Halberd, will have you die early, while ones too distant, such as Kongo Jungle, won't let you ever close stocks.

What is it about those stages specifically that helps Kirby? I thought a lack of platforms would hurt him more than help, with the trouble he has approaching and his inability to counter-camp unless he can copy a projectile attack.

 

[MikeKirby]

Guys! I was able to beat Seagull Joe and Vinnie in bracket today at nebulous! They were both really close sets...! I was hyped! I got 4th place out of like 70 people. I lost to Jtails in Winner's and Loser's. Proud of myself overall. Too bad my only sets recorded were of me vs Jtails~

What is it about those stages specifically that helps Kirby? I thought a lack of platforms would hurt him more than help, with the trouble he has approaching and his inability to counter-camp unless he can copy a projectile attack.

It's character dependent, really. Like, taking Sonic there is a good idea, maybe not so much Shiek. Platforms aren't really that bad. Usually when people are getting juggled and land on platforms they like to shield any follow ups. Luckily Kirby's inhale is a command grab. So, Kirby can take advantage of that situation and get himself a copy ability.

 

[Altair357]

Congrats Mike! I have a ton of respect for your dedication to Kirby and how you just keep getting better with him.

 

[Unknownkid]

Man I wanted to see the Vinnie and SeaGull Joe match. Hopeful, NL recorded those matches.

 

[|RK|]

Also, from my experience, our MK Tornado seems to beat out MKs this game. Can anyone confirm, or is it just a timing thing?

EDIT: Holy @#$%, what's the tradeoff for Giant Hammer? Usually with customs, one thing is added and another is taken away for balance. The swing speed? Like Hammer was fast to begin with? Please.

The superarmor is incredible - I was playing around with it, and Kirby took a full Zero Laser to the face without moving. The punish potential here is pretty good from what I can tell. But that's just IMO - I could be missing something huge, like maybe the uncharged swing speed being important or whatever. But I think that's worth the tradeoff.

 

[Flameduck]

Giant Hammer seems to have a long startup time. I guess that sort of compensates?

 

[Unknownkid]

Yeah, it is the startup. You take about an extra second to windup the Giant Hammer. You obtain Super Armor while charging but lose the super armor once you swing the hammer. The swing in the air is much much slower too unless its charged. Also, the Giant Hammer Full Charge Swing is unblockable.

This is opposite from Hammer Flip where you have super armor (and apparently invincibility based on TIPS) when you swing a charged hammer.

 

[kirbyfan66]

Has anyone here used Final Cutter to grab the ledge, and when you grab the ledge, you Final Cutter Spike your opponent by accident? Feels good.

If the weather wasn't so bad I may have gone to Nebulous. I'm sad that I didn't get to go and play against another Kirby.

Also, on the actual topic, I've been seeing a lot of discussion about Hammer Flip and Giant Hammer, but what are the main benefits of Hammer Bash? It's my favorite of the bunch, since you can kind of stall in the air with it and it functions kind of similarly to Brawl's Hammer (sort of).

 

[Unknownkid]

It is the best hammer custom. It is fast and kills at 95% against Mario. Reserved made a ground breaking analysis on in the Competitive Impression Thread. I post this in the Kirby Moveset Section:
http://smashboards.com/threads/kirb...titive-discussion.369255/page-3#post-18325150

He also did "brief" analysis and possible utility of all our customs, but once again, for some odd reason, he posted it only on the Competitive Impression Thread and not here.

 

[Asdioh]

I've been playing nothing but Monster Hunter 4

oops! rip smash bros wii u 2014-2015

 

[Unknownkid]

Same here man! I will come back from time to time.

 

[Altair357]

Is there a fun part after all these boring fetch quests?

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Everybody here is playing Monster Hunter while I'm waiting for Rainbow Curse.

 

[Hotdog]

Reserrrrrrved, how you been buddy? Hope you've been dominating King of the Hill

 

[Unknownkid]

Is there a fun part after all these boring fetch quests?

OFFTOPIC (Please don't smite me, Almightly Reserved!)
Short Answer: Yes! Once you get to the second villager, it becomes more fun. If you don't think fighting Nerscllya was fun then I don't know what to tell you.

Long Answer: YES! Hunting Monsters with your friends or random strangers, gathering parts to upgrade your equipment, carefully planning your next objective (this monster is weak to fire so I should make/bring a Fire Element Weapon and Boost my Fire Attacks) or just with your usual setup, getting frustrated when certain parts don't drop (I am looking at your Rathian Plate) and breaking out certain parts of the monster's body is always satisfying. There is so much more but I will end it there.

Most times, the boring fetch quests there to teach you something new (Monster Hunter is always known for being inaccessible), to break up the tension of just fighting monsters, to gather small but essential items, or to help you understand the map layout and explore. While this game at the beginning is easier than other MHs, they crank the difficult up to 20 at endgame (MH4U is known as the hardest game in the series and swimming is gone too). So brace yourself....

 

[kirbyfan66]

Everybody here is playing Monster Hunter while I'm waiting for Rainbow Curse.

This Friday, my friend. Then we can stop playing Smash and enjoy some Kirby, too!

 

[Asdioh]

Most times, the boring fetch quests there to teach you something new (Monster Hunter is always known for being inaccessible), to break up the tension of just fighting monsters, to gather small but essential items, or to help you understand the map layout and explore. While this game at the beginning is easier than other MHs, they crank the difficult up to 20 at endgame (MH4U is known as the hardest game in the series and swimming is gone too). So brace yourself....

O_O

I'm excited. I played Tri and then MH3U on WiiU, I only got them because my friends online wanted me to. It's definitely fun, but I think I only like it mostly because of playing with friends. Some of them were complaining about how easy it is though, so that'll be interesting if it really is hard.

What do you think of the mounting mechanic? How important is it for endgame stuff? Also I use Lance

 

[Unknownkid]

O_O

I'm excited. I played Tri and then MH3U on WiiU, I only got them because my friends online wanted me to. It's definitely fun, but I think I only like it mostly because of playing with friends. Some of them were complaining about how easy it is though, so that'll be interesting if it really is hard.

What do you think of the mounting mechanic? How important is it for endgame stuff? Also I use Lance

Dude, you should see the Japanese Reviews for MH4 on their Japanese Amazon. Its hilarious! Most of them were complaining on how hard the game is, especially in Guild Quest mode and the Extreme Monsters. Tell your friends to brace for G-Rank. It is going to be a fun ride.

Mounting Mechanic is awesome! Probably one of the main reason why Insect Glaive is so powerful. It does a lot of damage and breaks monster parts. Is it important in endgame? I believe so. Though, I rarely see it in high level play. Oh a Lancer? You guys are pretty cool . I don't know why you guys get a Free Jump though. Are you an Evade Lancer or Guard Lancer type?

Charge Blade/Switch Axe user here.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Reserrrrrrved, how you been buddy? Hope you've been dominating King of the Hill

I haven't played on KotH for quite some time. I'd rather play friendlies than wait an hour to fight Diddy, lol.

OFFTOPIC (Please don't smite me, Almightly Reserved!)
Short Answer: Yes! Once you get to the second villager, it becomes more fun. If you don't think fighting Nerscllya was fun then I don't know what to tell you.

Long Answer: YES! Hunting Monsters with your friends or random strangers, gathering parts to upgrade your equipment, carefully planning your next objective (this monster is weak to fire so I should make/bring a Fire Element Weapon and Boost my Fire Attacks) or just with your usual setup, getting frustrated when certain parts don't drop (I am looking at your Rathian Plate) and breaking out certain parts of the monster's body is always satisfying. There is so much more but I will end it there.

Most times, the boring fetch quests there to teach you something new (Monster Hunter is always known for being inaccessible), to break up the tension of just fighting monsters, to gather small but essential items, or to help you understand the map layout and explore. While this game at the beginning is easier than other MHs, they crank the difficult up to 20 at endgame (MH4U is known as the hardest game in the series and swimming is gone too). So brace yourself....

This is the social thread. Nothing is off-topic!

 

[Asdioh]

I don't know. I did mostly Evade I believe in MH3U I think, but Guard is oftentimes easier? And you can hypothetically block attacks for your teammates... that doesn't really happen though. I wonder if Gunlance is fun, but I spent so much time on Lance from Tri/3U that it just feels second nature. The new jumping/mounting attack is fantastic too, so that ensures I won't get bored of it. It's fun jumping over monster projectiles and stabbing them in the FACE.

 

[WootSnorlax]

This is the social thread right? Can I ask how many of you are planning on going to EVO?? We should get a Kirby meetup for EVO or something!!

 

[kirbyfan66]

That would be nice to go to, but Evo is definitely too far away from me. Apex wasn't very far from me, actually, but stupid weather prevented me from going. Maybe we can get a Kirby meetup in 11 moths for Apex...

 

[Altair357]

OFFTOPIC (Please don't smite me, Almightly Reserved!)
Short Answer: Yes! Once you get to the second villager, it becomes more fun. If you don't think fighting Nerscllya was fun then I don't know what to tell you.

Long Answer: YES! Hunting Monsters with your friends or random strangers, gathering parts to upgrade your equipment, carefully planning your next objective (this monster is weak to fire so I should make/bring a Fire Element Weapon and Boost my Fire Attacks) or just with your usual setup, getting frustrated when certain parts don't drop (I am looking at your Rathian Plate) and breaking out certain parts of the monster's body is always satisfying. There is so much more but I will end it there.

Most times, the boring fetch quests there to teach you something new (Monster Hunter is always known for being inaccessible), to break up the tension of just fighting monsters, to gather small but essential items, or to help you understand the map layout and explore. While this game at the beginning is easier than other MHs, they crank the difficult up to 20 at endgame (MH4U is known as the hardest game in the series and swimming is gone too). So brace yourself....

Alright, full confession. Only did the first quest where you get the guy food and I got bored. I might come back to it sometime, who knows. I just don't think it's the kind of game that I can consistently play.

With that said, power to everyone who enjoys it!

 

[Kirbymeister]

anyone got some combos that they use in matches?
I tend to use D-air to U-tilt to B-Air, but it's not the most reliable...

 

[fromundaman]

This is the social thread right? Can I ask how many of you are planning on going to EVO?? We should get a Kirby meetup for EVO or something!!

Not until I know for sure that they aren't doing customs. If they are then that is too much money to throw away to jank movesets.

EDIT:

Of course I'm not even really a real Kirby player anymore...

 

[t!MmY]

Not until I know for sure that they aren't doing customs. If they are then that is too much money to throw away to jank movesets.

EDIT:

Of course I'm not even really a real Kirby player anymore...

You'll always be a Kirby player in my heart, Fromundaman. <3

 

[Unknownkid]

Alright, full confession. Only did the first quest where you get the guy food and I got bored. I might come back to it sometime, who knows. I just don't think it's the kind of game that I can consistently play.

With that said, power to everyone who enjoys it!

I see. Yes, the beginning is slow, but I feel it is faster than the MH Tri. But like I said that beginning part is important. If you didn't know cook or gather you will not how to boost your stamina or heal during the fight as a newcomer. Anyways, take your time and don't rush it. If you need assistance, we are here for you.

I don't know. I did mostly Evade I believe in MH3U I think, but Guard is oftentimes easier? And you can hypothetically block attacks for your teammates... that doesn't really happen though. I wonder if Gunlance is fun, but I spent so much time on Lance from Tri/3U that it just feels second nature. The new jumping/mounting attack is fantastic too, so that ensures I won't get bored of it. It's fun jumping over monster projectiles and stabbing them in the FACE.

Yeah, that makes sense. My friend main Lance and love Gun Lance. It is fun - give it a try.

Not until I know for sure that they aren't doing customs. If they are then that is too much money to throw away to jank movesets.

EDIT:

Of course I'm not even really a real Kirby player anymore...

Wait you are against Custom Moves? Especially when they boost Kirby's capabilities?

 

[Altair357]

Yeah, why would anyone, especially a Kirby player, be against customs? They're the most interesting part of the game and the biggest thing setting Smash 4 apart from Brawl. I guess adapting can take time, but rejecting such a huge competitive option is a big mistake. The game becomes so much more diverse.

 

[Asdioh]

Alright, full confession. Only did the first quest where you get the guy food and I got bored. I might come back to it sometime, who knows. I just don't think it's the kind of game that I can consistently play.

With that said, power to everyone who enjoys it!

I've fought this thing a ton of times and this music still gets me hyped every time

Also I just beat the single player, woo!

Not until I know for sure that they aren't doing customs. If they are then that is too much money to throw away to jank movesets.

EDIT:

Of course I'm not even really a real Kirby player anymore...

1. Other option is throwing away your money to Diddy Kong's jank (CLEARLY jank) default moveset

2. You main Ganondorf and he's praised as having customs that shoot him up the tier list!
Well... I dunno if you still main Ganondorf. But yknow.
If you main Pac man? He has custom B moves which almost nobody will have learned by heart so you can get cheese kills off of them because they're so unpredictable!

 

[fromundaman]

Okay, actual question:

Do you guys live in regions that have had custom allowed tournaments? Like have you experienced customs in a tournament setting, or has it just been random experimenting in friendlies.

The mere fact that you guys are telling me Kirby is better with customs makes me think the latter.
I mean sure, if you take normal Kirby and custom Kirby into a vaccuum, then yes, move like Jumping inhale and the cutter that sweetspots the ledge actually bring him up to a point of viability.
When you put him back into a game with the other crazy ass customs in this game, he stands even less of a chance than ever before by the mere fact that his customs DON'T make him stupidly broken.


Allow me to copy paste a post I made about this recently:

There are some REALLLLLLY bad custom moves.

Shulk has a counter that can kill at pretty much any % (Died at 0% as Ganon off of the top left when he countered an uncharged Fsmash) but gets harder to time the more you use it. Doesn't matter too much since the first counter acts like normal and will take a full stock.

Rosalina has a really good projectile allowing her to outzone the few characters that can zone her and turning those MUs into impossible matchups. She also has one that allows her to teleport Luma a set distance while staying in neutral, allowing her to teleport Luma attacks into you.

Villager has a tree where the sprout trips, the tree reflects damage and otherwise it acts like normal.
Oh he also has a recovery that acts exactly like normal except the balloons explode.

Pacman has a trampoline that spikes and can root the opponent.

Mario has a cape where there is a windbox about 2X the size of the cape in front of it with fixed knockback that sends a little under 1/2 of FD distance.

Shiek has a grenade that doesn't keep her rooted in place so she can follow it and the knockback sends you into Shiek so that she can follow up into anything she wants.

Mii Brawler... Oh god Mii Brawler in general (Although ESPECIALLY Piston Punch, which can be hit in a certain way to kill at 0% and this can be comboed into, amongst other things, from a grab). His other customs are pretty dumb too though.

G&W has a custom where his judgement only does 1s and 9s. So yeah, 50% chance of a 9. The 9 is *slightly* weaker, but it's still a ridiculous kill move.

Oh, and then there's stuff like this little gem:

http://youtu.be/IMMxmMVO9gA

And by *gem* I mean the most broken thing ever seen in anything ever. Ivan Ooze is blushing somewhere.

This was a quick description of some of the stupid customs, but allow me to get into personal annecdotes.

In the last custom tournament that I partook in, I played a Shulk player that I have literally NEVER lost to, ever, with any character.
This time we did Ganon vs Shulk, and he countered an uncharged Fsmash near center stage (I went to punish and accidentally did a turnaround Fsmash instead of Ftilt); I am at 0% and he's around 20-ish. He has either the damage or speed monado on (I forget, but it wasn't smash).
As one of the heaviest characters in the game, I die off of the top left corner from this. This was a two stock game and I lost the match. Game 2 I had to go Megaman and literally follow up on nothing to bait out the counter until it came out enough times that I was almost sure he couldn't time it anymore. I did this again game 3 to take the set.
If the player had been just a little better, he could have abused the fact that I could not do any sort of reset or frame trap for fear of losing a full stock and used it to body me. As it stands it is the only tournament match he has ever taken on me.


In losers, I played a very good Rosalina player (Fumbles). Normally that MU for Megaman involves trying to use the crash bomb and jabs to harrass her (Since it explodes on contact with Luma) and bait down Bs, which I then have to punish with DA or run-up grab/Usmash.
With customs, Rosalina gets a projectile that outprioritizes ALL of mine, and a teleporting Luma that keeps her in neutral allowing her to teleport moves into you when you are forced to approach. All this while still keeping anti-projectile tools.
The MU went from a 4-6 to a 1-9 just thanks to those two moves.


At a previous tournament, I had a Yoshi abuse a custom that allowed him to fly off the screen for an indefinite period of time (That one was 3DS though so it may have been patched out).

_________

I've fought this thing a ton of times and this music still gets me hyped every time

Also I just beat the single player, woo!

1. Other option is throwing away your money to Diddy Kong's jank (CLEARLY jank) default moveset

2. You main Ganondorf and he's praised as having customs that shoot him up the tier list!
Well... I dunno if you still main Ganondorf. But yknow.
If you main Pac man? He has custom B moves which almost nobody will have learned by heart so you can get cheese kills off of them because they're so unpredictable!

Also yes, all of the characters I even dabble with get better with customs (Assuming we also put them into a vaccuum where other, stronger customs aren't allowed. If we do allow everyone to have customs, then Pacman's probably my only character to benefit); that's not the point at all.


I have found that Pacman has a 100% guaranteed ledge trap with Meteor tramp which in the best case scenario you eat a hydrant and get knocked back offstage, and in the worst case scenario you get spiked off of the ledge. There are also other equally stupid onstage setups with the meteor tramp since it will root.
That said his weird fruit custom is worse with the exception of the strawberry, which is WAAAAAY better.

Re-read what you typed though. EVO is not a place where you should be able to "cheese" wins over better players with stuff they haven't seen. The mere fact that customs will penalize the players who actually took the time to study the game and matchups in depth is yet another issue, although admittedly less of one than the balance issue is.


Also, while Diddy is pretty ****ty for Kirby, he is infinitely less broken than Brawl MK was, and even Brawl MK pales in comparison to some of the characters that appear with custom moves on.



TL DR version:

Take it from someone who actually HAS competed in custom tournaments; they are not helping balance AT ALL.

 

[WootSnorlax]

@ fromundaman This is why I'm against customs also. Sure Kirby has some pretty cool ones, but the amount of stupidly good customs on other characters really outweigh the good customs Kirby has. Glad it's not just me that feels that way.

 

[fromundaman]

Yeah. it's a shame that some characters have Brawl- level custom moves whereas Kirby has some that really, he should have had as default moves to begin with since they are almost needed for him to compete in the normal game.

 

[chaosmasterro]

So last night I was playing my friend's Rosalina using customs on Kirby, my Kirby just obliterated her and it made me feel good inside. It was so bad that he started to complain that it's unbalanced and characters should only use one or two customs to make the game balanced.
It got worse he proposed this idea that there should be a point system based on the special for example: Kirby's Default is 1111 = 4, 1233 = 9 (Inhale, Hammer bash, Upper cutter, meteor stone), 1131 = 6, 3333 = 12, etc.
He said the limit should be 7. I destroyed his Rosalina using a 3331 set main because of jumping inhale. He said my set is too strong because my points equaled to 10 and was using too many "heavy" specials and sacrifices have to be made for my character to become balanced.


At the end of the day proceeded to 3-stock all of his characters especially the Rosalina. I already gave my friend reasons why this would never work and why people will never agree on this but if someone wants to throw some input on whether his idea is good or bad just let me know. He's going to be fixated on this topic for at least a week so I want some input.

 

[Asdioh]

I still don't buy it. I only mentioned the pacman cheese because he STILL cheeses people with his DEFAULT moveset. There are very few good Pacman players, and he has a high curve for learning to play/fight, so I can guarantee you that helped his placing at Apex. The game is still fairly new, there is going to be surprise stuff pulled out every now and then. There are arguments against every "broken" custom move you mentioned. It's possible to play around each and every one of them, if you learn how they work. A lot of them take stocks very quickly, which is why I would be in favor of 3 stocks, custom moves on... but Evo won't allow more than 2 stocks, unfortunately. Still, if it has the same ruleset as Apex (and it basically does) it looks like it'll be another snoozefest, with Diddy Kong inevitably winning again.

Shulk's power counter is stupidly strong, I'll admit that. The rest of the character is kinda meh though. Compare it to Diddy Kong, who has an amazing throw->aerial game, and the rest of his moveset/characteristics are amazing. Diddy Kong's probably still better, regardless of what customs he uses. And again, 3 stocks would help soften the blow of Counter "instakills."

Rosalina's Luma Warp is ridiculously easy to play around. It always warps a set distance, so just be aware of the option and play accordingly. The projectile I'm not sure, I know Kirby can duck under it so she prefers to use Floaty Star Bit against him. I don't know what Megaman can do, though I do know his Skull Barrier is an instant reflector so that can be used I guess? Did you say it cancels Metal Blade too?
Rosalina's just one of the stupidest characters in smash history imo, regardless of customs, so I can't really argue much about her. Her default Gravitational Pull is one of the most poorly designed moves ever, with the benefits of having an INSANE hitbox.

Villager customs are super annoying, but so is his entire character. I can see the tripping sprout being problematic for characters like Little Mac, but I see a lot of things being problematic for Mac. Exploding balloons help with his "planking" which is something Villagers like to do, but it's still not too hard to trump him or attack him during ledge vulnerability.

Pacman has a lot of jank stuff anyway, I don't know if the meteor trampoline is OP because I haven't seen it in action.

I've actually seen Gust Cape used in tournaments, but it's never seemed OP? It's good for sure, but there are also benefits to taking any of the other capes. Well.. I'm not actually sure why you would use default over Gust, maybe it's a little faster? But Shocking Cape is a surprisingly good kill move.

Sheik Grenade sounds fun. Sheik often takes too long to take stocks, I wouldn't mind seeing her get some grenade combos into sweetspotted Upsmash.

Mii Brawler is a good character. The "one-inch punch" was hyped when it was discovered, but apparently it's VERY character and location specific (like, it's only reliable on Jigglypuff, and even then spacing, DI, and SDI can save you?). In fact, people say his Helicopter Kick is a better move. More importantly, the Miis are apparently special snowflakes, so even if "custom moves are banned," it's very likely that Miis will still have all their moves available to them. Because reasons. (I've never liked this argument, because the argument is "Miis don't need customs on to use their custom moves, so they should always be allowed custom moves!" but it's also true that "Miis don't need customs to use equipment, so _____" )

G&W's 1 or 9 custom actually really sucks, the other two are better. Not only are the 9s weaker, but it clearly favors 1s. Try it out yourself. G&Ws will be taking a ton of free damage trying to use this. Chain Judge is actually pretty good, because the variable amount of hits makes it a little harder to punish when shielded.

That Olimar thing is horribly broken, and if it seems like a problem the move should just be banned until it's patched, much like the G&W/Pikachu combo was in doubles.


Really though, the fact that there are so many "broken" things means that one thing isn't clearly the best, like it is in the current meta. I really don't think any character will become stronger/better than Diddy Kong in the customs off environment, considering his ease of use and massive success rate. You also didn't mention Ike's Close Combat sideB, which helps him power through projectiles and all around just makes him a better character, along with his other customs being good, I believe. Then there's Donkey Kong, who has amazing custom options, most notably his windy UpB being stupidly good with platforms like on Battlefield.

I dunno, my local tournaments are going to start running customs soon (as I was typing this I read about how the 2nd-nearest venue to me is starting customs this weekend) so we'll see how that goes, assuming I actually go to the tournaments. Yours is the only account of firsthand experience of customs being bad though, everyone else has been positive :/


also these images are going to be printed out at the tourneys and i think that's really cool http://i.imgur.com/EmpTBf6.png
http://i.imgur.com/GscIQpB.png

 

[t!MmY]

I'm going to bring some rational thoughts into this.

First of all:
Some people prefer 'Custom Fighters' set to ON.
Some people prefer 'Custom Fighters' set to OFF.

Let us all appreciate the views each side brings to the table and accept the fact that neither side is judged 'right' nor 'wrong'. Each of us have our opinion based on our experience and/or motivations, but let us adhere to reason when discussing this and not allow bias to muddy our words.

I will bring to light exactly what I'm talking about, but please keep in mind my intent is to help steer this conversation to a path of understanding and camaraderie. I don't want to tell anyone *what* to do, but I hope to help everyone as best as I can.

Saying "Customs are good for Kirby" is trying to play off the emotions of Kirby players. That's rhetoric, not reason. I'm far more likely to heed @ fromundaman when he says "Customs help Kirby, but they help other characters more" especially when he gives specific example.

Conversely, when fromundaman says Customs are 'stupid' and 'dumb', in so many words, this doesn't really give us specific reasons. Maybe people prefer 'stupid' and 'dumb' moves (I could think of other Fighting Games that fit this bill).

When we're talking about turning Custom Fighters ON/OFF we're talking about something beyond our own personal views on the subject. We have to look at the foundations on which we stand and move on from there. It's not as simple as voicing our opinions and trying to figure out who's loudest.

 

[|RK|]

In that case, I'll say this: customs haven't been a significant part of the metagame yet, and certainly not long enough to determine how each character stacks up with them. We've seen customs allowed on maybe less than 10% of all available streams so far. We haven't come up with any strategy to defeat customs because we weren't under the impressions that they would be allowed. We're only surprised by certain customs because we haven't seen them used on any large scale.

If there's anything I've learned from the Competitive Impressions thread, it's that theory is only one part of Smash. The other is how a match actually plays out. So now we may have more custom tournaments, now we have people that will study customs. It is from this that we can determine how customs affect the metagame, and go from there.