Kirby Match-Up Thread: THE ANSWER to all MUs!

[MikeKirby]

Kirby can intercept Falco's Illusion with his Twinkle Star (nuetral air). Just thought I'd throw it out there.

You have to anticipate it... but, hey, it works!

 

[Sage JoWii]

BTW guys, Hylian's post kinda started me thinking and with A2ZOMG's posts I'm starting to think we don't need ratio #s. I'm not sure which board is doing it but I know one of them is but maybe we'll switch from posting numbers and instead post *****, large disadvatage, disadvantage, even, advantage, large advantage, ****? It'd stop the numbers and we'd just know if it'll be an extremely hard or extremely easy and all the in betweens.

Actually....so it's been typed, so it shall be.

 

[Gnes]

Kirby only gets 18% from fthrow->uair, while Falco has more % (and possible follow-ups) from dthrow chaingrabs. Illusion is hard to gimp IIRC, but bair might hit through it. If you can manage to get him in a situation where you can gimp him he should lose his stock, but that shouldn't really happen against a good Falco who knows his stuff. Laser camping is a *****, and while it can be gone around sort of by crouch-walking, it's impractical in almost any other situation and there are better things the Kirby main should be spending his time on learning (unless this Kirby is ideal). It's much harder for Kirby to rack on damage throughout the stock, while Falco can do it easier. HOWEVER, the Falco has to be EXTREMELY careful the entire game, because being knocked offstage means a ton of % and maybe a stock.

Okay, I'm changing my opinion now that I think about it, 55:45 in either's favor sounds good to me.

Crouch walking has been useful since like the first year of brawl and still is. In a sense...it makes falco unable to approach/camp u with lasers unless he does ledgehopped lasers, meaning hes near the ledge which is where he absolutely doesnt want to be.

Bair does hit through illusion very safely, and should be the main move u use to edgeguard if he doesnt go for the ledge. Also if u jab falco out of illusion, its a free gimp. I personally like doing that alot. Laser camping isn't the issue in this matchup, its really pretty easy to get by. Kirby just has no way to punish some of falcos moves(without PS) if their spaced right, such as bair/jab.

 

[Lord Viper]

BTW guys, Hylian's post kinda started me thinking and with A2ZOMG's posts I'm starting to think we don't need ratio #s. I'm not sure which board is doing it but I know one of them is but maybe we'll switch from posting numbers and instead post *****, large disadvatage, disadvantage, even, advantage, large advantage, ****? It'd stop the numbers and we'd just know if it'll be an extremely hard or extremely easy and all the in betweens.

Actually....so it's been typed, so it shall be.

☆ That is why I never put numbers in my post in the current match up exports. It's either going to be debated based on bias, or not long enough to post a number. But yea, most match up threads should just post different advantages, but most of the match up threads in the different boards use ratios. >.< ☆

 

[A1lion835]

Crouch walking has been useful since like the first year of brawl and still is. In a sense...it makes falco unable to approach/camp u with lasers unless he does ledgehopped lasers, meaning hes near the ledge which is where he absolutely doesnt want to be.

Bair does hit through illusion very safely, and should be the main move u use to edgeguard if he doesnt go for the ledge. Also if u jab falco out of illusion, its a free gimp. I personally like doing that alot. Laser camping isn't the issue in this matchup, its really pretty easy to get by. Kirby just has no way to punish some of falcos moves(without PS) if their spaced right, such as bair/jab.

Crouch walking doesn't really have any use outside of "gotta get close to this camper", and is much less useful outside of this matchup. There are better things a Kirby should be working on in his general gameplay that will help him much more overall than learning to crouch walk, though it's not terribly hard to learn.

When Kirby gets closer to Falco, he doesn't really have any awesome things to do. Dtilt, FC (only mentioning that because it's possible, not because it's a good idea), and maybe some other tilts, while Falco has his entire moveset to transition to out of a laser.

While Falco IS easy to gimp, getting a good Falco into a position where he CAN be gimped isn't easy. He shouldn't be getting knocked offstage all that often until mid-high %'s, when either side could get a kill. In addition, Falco can get back to the stage fairly quickly, and with Kirby not moving all too quickly, a lot of potential gimps will be stopped before they have a chance to happen.

I pretty much agree with the last paragraph.

@JoWii - Sounds like a good idea. I personally like having numbers to associate the matchup with (and then, in my mind thinking "Oh, that's a **** matchup"), but it makes sense to just skip the number. Might be a problem if people ask for a matchup chart though.

 

[Triple R]

I don't know why you would crouch walk against falco when you can simply just powershield his lasers.....

 

[MikeKirby]

Guys... have we really been so wrong on the G&W matchup? Am I being propagandasized? It's not as bad as IC's... I know it isn't...

 

[Kewkky]

i still don't think it's THAT bad. During a match, it never really is as impossible as they're saying for us.

 

[Sage JoWii]

@ Kwekky Kewkky- ....you're wrong.


Lol, but not all the way. Let's take a moment to step back and actually move past our love for Kirby for all of a minute and look at this seriously.

I know it's impossibly hard to consider that G&W is actually a harder MU than MK or ICs.
I know it's even more impossibly hard to consider that he might actually be a hard counter, large disadvantage, 7:3, etc however you wanna put it.

But guys....I'm looking @ the #s, the move sets, the general strategy and their best UTDZac and our best Y.b.M. (Chu retired guys get over it) and without any bias it's plain to see what this MU is.

When I write up this summary, it'll be with the mindset that the MU is a large disadvantage/ hard counter/ 65:35.

 

[Triple R]

I would agree to disadvantage, but not a large disadvantage.

Y.b.M. the best? Start the kirby wars again lol

 

[Kewkky]

When I write up this summary, it'll be with the mindset that the MU is a large disadvantage/ hard counter/ 65:35.

I was talking about how people say it's a "****" MU and at LEAST 7:3. I disagree with that. :@

 

[Sage JoWii]

@ RRR- It's not a Y.b.M. vs CHUDAT or anything like that, he's just our biggest representation now that Chu is gone.

I'm going to need a very, in depth, unbiased, number based, best GW vs Best Kirby reason why it's not a large disadvantage.

Ninja'd edit: At MOST it's a 7:3 at least it's a 6:4. I apologize, I thought you were arguing a closer to even view (my bad! I misread).

 

[*JuriHan*]

wait what... kirby:snake only 45:55? That can't be right. Maybe on wifi but certainly not offline. It should be at least 40:60 in snake's advantage

 

[Sage JoWii]

wait what... kirby:snake only 45:55? That can't be right. Maybe on wifi but certainly not offline. It should be at least 40:60 in snake's advantage

Who are you?
Where were you in the Snake/Kirby Matchup discussion?
What reasoning?
Why bother?

I'll stop you from answering any of those questions because I'm not changing that ratio to another ratio, I'm just going to drop the ratio and put Snake's advantage.

 

[Kewkky]

SNO's right though, Snake's a 40:60 for us. :/

 

[*JuriHan*]

Who are you?
Where were you in the Snake/Kirby Matchup discussion?
What reasoning?
Why bother?

I'll stop you from answering any of those questions because I'm not changing that ratio to another ratio, I'm just going to drop the ratio and put Snake's advantage.

oh hi.

This is me:

http://www.youtube.com/user/SniperNightOwl

go ahead and type "snipern" in google. I'm sure I'll show up there too as a search possibility.

This was my last offline match with Kirby:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTuxKFdSVNg

That's who I am. Thanks. You? Who are you?

 

[Sage JoWii]

So you're a Kirby who rolls too much, spams FSmash and beats up on mediocre Lucases? Too pro. For a minute I thought that vid would link me to something to shut me up. Good @ Wifi =/= good.

So LIKE I SAID EARLIER, I'm dropping those ratios anyways so it doesn't matter right now that I put in the wrong #s.

 

[Kewkky]

Come on, JoWii, no need to be hostile. She's been a Kirby mainer for a while, and remember that some people are better at theorizing than playing... You never know if she's one of them, or was sandbagging, or any other reason until you either ask her, witness it during Kirby discussions, or play her yourself. : /

 

[A1lion835]

JoWii, I'd like to go into detail about my reaction to your last post, but since that's off-topic, I won't.

While being good in reality and playing good opponents will obviously help you understand the matchup, theory is good enough for many matchup discussions. I've managed to run and debate in matchup threads (well, maybe I didn't run them too well) well, and I'm a 13-year-old who's only offline experience has been with untimed, all items on high, FFA, mostly on banned stages and I play almost never. I have as many, probably more bad habits as SNO and my adaptability is terrible. BUT, watching videos, learning the theory and playing on wifi (a good connection will still allow you to gather an understanding of the matchup) have given me (and I would assume SNO) a good understanding of quite a few matchups. You can use the material SNO has given you in her post to formulate some kind of first impression of her, but until you actually see how she discusses matchups, don't insult her on it.

Ninja edit: This post says approximately the same thing as Kewkky's.

 

[*JuriHan*]

1. I don't get punished for my rolling

2. That's offline. I quit wifi.

3. Let's see your offline

as for Snake.

We don't have any safe approaches against him, and Snake is great at camping. Camping wrecks Kirby, so those two components alone will be enough to spell disaster for the MU. Why the hell would it be 55:45? Also grab combos wont help, he can just hold a nade and escape them. I can go into more but what I just said is reason enough to set it to 40:60.

 

[Variable]

1. I don't get punished for my rolling

2. That's offline. I quit wifi.

3. Let's see your offline

as for Snake.

We don't have any safe approaches against him, and Snake is great at camping. Camping wrecks Kirby, so those two components alone will be enough to spell disaster for the MU. Why the hell would it be 55:45? Also grab combos wont help, he can just hold a nade and escape them. I can go into more but what I just said is reason enough to set it to 40:60.

I mean I'm not even a Kirby Main, I just use him as a secondary so what do I know eh? Lol, you didn't get punished for your rolling, which you didn't even use that much, you missed a total of ONE Fsmash (Correct me if I'm wrong, but I doubt I am) So I don't see how you could use it "too much" when he was 2/3 with it and the 2 that hit were in kill range, and did in fact take a stock. So I wouldn't rant about your Kirby play, at least on one match..

Although I do have to agree with JoWii on ONE thing, and that is that was a mediocre Lucas. Missing grabs, which resulted in punishing, missed USmashes, which is a long hit box so got punished. And overall he didn't connect with anything that gives lucas a shot at winning. Pk fire missed nearly every time, I saw numerous missed FSmashes, and Up B specials, (Including the one when he attempted to slam into you after hitting himself LOL fail) And if anything else, he didn't really combo into anything... so yes, it wasn't a great performance from the Lucas, but that isn't your fault, and doesn't take anything away from your skill. You can't help it if, your opponent plays poorly...


About the Kirby v. Snake MU, I believe it's 45:55 Snake IMO. Kirby has too much going for him, to be considered at a big dis-advantage... Get Snake into the air, or off of the stage and it's game over.. Kirby's Arieals are too strong. Also kirbys grabs can combo into a lot of different options with the advantage of how heavy snake is. Plus If you Swallow Snake, and get his grenade special, you can probably even out camp him. I mean what else does he have that you can't escape from? Side B Missiles? C4? That's about it.... Plus Kirby has excellent recovery, and can gimp snake very well.

I still think Snake has a slight advantage, but not 40:60.

 

[Sage JoWii]

^^^ I agree with above post.

Camping after you get his power + gimping recovery stops it from being 60:40 automatically.

AT THE SAME TIME, get over the ratio fool. We're dropping ratios because they're not helpful and we're opting for just letting it be known the advantage or disadvantage in the matchup and to what degree.

 

[Kewkky]

How are you gonna get his power? How are you gonna get him into the air? And did you know how Snake survives until 160%+ and can kill Kirby at 120% with his most ******** hitbox, while Kirby (if lucky) survives until 140% and can kill Snake only at really high %s? Not to mention Snake has lots of very disjointed hitboxes with which to outrange us with... It's his advantage, because even though it sounds like it's really bad for us, we can still grenade camp, string some good hits if we manage to get into his personal space, and frametrap his landings with little to no difficulty (fsmash and dsmash are long-lasting hitboxes).

 

[Sage JoWii]

I can't tell if Kewkky is arguing against my post or someone elses?

Inhale when he snakedashes.

And I only said it's not a 'gance-at-MU-automatically-rule-it-6:4-snake'.

 

[Kewkky]

I can't tell if Kewkky is arguing against my post or someone elses?

Inhale when he snakedashes.

And I only said it's not a 'gance-at-MU-automatically-rule-it-6:4-snake'.

I was just throwing it out and seeing who bites.

How can you inhale when he snakedashes? In less than 20 frames he's already on top of you... You'd need some pre-tty good prediction skills, and as far as I know, prediction is a player skill and not a character trait, meaning that if someone can do X thing because he can predict people very well then it's the player and not the character. The character still can't depend on that punishment himself.

And yeah, it's not a glance-at-this-MU-and-say-it's-4:6. I used to argue way back then how it was actually 45:55, but playing more and more against different snakes everyday made me eat my words. : /

 

[Variable]

How are you gonna get his power? How are you gonna get him into the air? And did you know how Snake survives until 160%+ and can kill Kirby at 120% with his most ******** hitbox, while Kirby (if lucky) survives until 140% and can kill Snake only at really high %s? Not to mention Snake has lots of very disjointed hitboxes with which to outrange us with... It's his advantage, because even though it sounds like it's really bad for us, we can still grenade camp, string some good hits if we manage to get into his personal space, and frametrap his landings with little to no difficulty (fsmash and dsmash are long-lasting hitboxes).

Well there are numerous ways... I'm not going to post an entire scheme of "how to get snake in the air or etc. w/e.) But I'm just saying if you do you have a gigantic advantage.

 

[Sage JoWii]

Okay, I seriously don't understand how you cannot have a complete chart by now, even with some errors.

I'm not blaming any particular person, least of all the curator of the chart, but this is ridiculous considering how long it's been worked on. "blah blah blah we don't have the match-up experience" is bullocks, I'm sure at this point between all of us all these match-ups have been fought and SOMETHING can go there.

You know what the problem is? Some respectable person in a character board (likely the mod) starts a match-up topic and does it one character at a time, everyone gets really excited, it gets updated a lot, the match-up gets discussed a lot, and then you move on. Eventually the interval between updates gets longer, people get less excited, and eventually people find it troublesome to put in the effort to discuss things at all and BOOM you're less than half-way through the list. Then the mod quits all together, a new mod comes along to start fresh, he's really excited, and STARTS A NEW TOPIC FROM THE BEGINNING about match-ups and we're stuck in a limbo.

You probably didn't read that, I was basically just *****ing and being a general knob. Dont' worry about it.

10 THIS!!! I'm guilty of it. I'm going to write the match-ups for the open ones right now and then we need to tackle the PIKA MU before we can start Falco and Rob (which will most likely be fast, brush up discussions). Let's do this!

 

[Kewkky]

10 THIS!!! I'm guilty of it. I'm going to write the match-ups for the open ones right now and then we need to tackle the PIKA MU before we can start Falco and Rob (which will most likely be fast, brush up discussions). Let's do this!

I'm just here, sitting around, watching, waiting for other Mu discussions to happen and for people to start talking... : |

 

[Sage JoWii]

I know I know ;_;

I'm about to post the Marth summary and then I'll tackle the ICs MU. I'd like to finish the PIKA MU before we proceed but there's no talk in it.

 

[MangoAndPals]

I was wondering, JoWii, are you going to put all the matchup synopsises(?) on this thread, or only link to other threads? kthx

 

[Sage JoWii]

I only link the summaries. They're in the OPs of the various exports and I just link them.

Btw Marth is up, ICs next I think.

 

[MangoAndPals]

Hmm... another question I just thought of. In the previous MU thread, the MUs were, like, all disadvantages. Do you think it will end up like this this time?

 

[Sage JoWii]

Mango, I'd honestly like to say there won't be as many but it's all about public discussion. Speculation? I think there'll be less large disadvantages. I think Kirby has the tools to even up the matchups. I see more 'Even' matchups than disadvantage matchups in our future but we're not going to be biased with Kirby.

 

[t!MmY]

Wow, this thread still has a long ways to go. Let me put some thoughts down for the characters that aren't finished and see what I can add...

 

[A1lion835]

Not to be rude t1mmy, but duh, we've only done about 1/4 of the matchups.

Speaking of inputting thoughts, I should probably start on that pika write-up.

 

[Lord Viper]

Wow, this thread still has a long ways to go. Let me put some thoughts down for the characters that aren't finished and see what I can add...

☆ Please start of Mr. Game & Watch. I have no input on that match up anymore. T_T ☆

☆ Also JoWii, I think it's time to start a new match up. ☆

 

[Sage JoWii]

@ Viper- I said we would if you guys would finish up that Pika match-up that's been sitting there.

 

[Mariofan12]

In my opinion, Kirby should have all even matchups because he can just copy a character and then Kirby and his opponent both have the exact same moves.

 

[Chuee]

..........
When he copies them he only gets their Nuetral B move =/

 

[Mariofan12]

Oh, I see.