Kirby Match-Up Thread: THE ANSWER to all MUs!

[Sage JoWii]

1.General Info

1.1. A small foreword:​

We'll keep this simple.​

1.2. Purpose:​

Intelligent discussion of Kirby's match-ups: theory, practice, actual tournament experience and, if we can, some info from the enemy.​

1.3. Guidelines:​

If you're unhappy with the way this thread is run, just PM me.
Don't flame, troll, phoenix wright spam, or go off topic, or I'll PM you.
If you have a problem with someone else, PM them or report it.​

1.4. Match-up Discussion Priority:​

Basically we'll mirror the 'character ranking list' rather than the tier list because I think it's better to discuss who is played most, as far as tournament attendance, rather than placement on the tier list. We'll start at two points: the top, Metaknight, and around the middle, Peach. If a character comes up we feel comfortable, as a community, skipping...then we shall. (This could be because they're not worth taking a whole week and someone wants to summarize it for us to link or it could be because that character's metagame hasn't changed and the old summary and discussion is still valid.)​

1.5 Kirby's Pros and Cons​

While summarizing each Match-Up I realized that I was always posting the same Kirby Pros(+) and Cons(-); in order to condense the summaries, and rid myself of this redundancy, I've decided to post the general list of Kirby + and - here in the MU directory.

Pros:
+Racks damage well w/ Grabs
+Great Reactive game w/ B-Air
+Juggles moderately well w/ U-Air
+Superb Recovery (5jumps+ UpB)
+Excels @ offstage plus has tools to 'gimp' recoveries
+Great bait and punish game
+Arsenal of Kill moves (most situational)
+Great tilts help in juggling, spacing and set-ups

Cons:
-Moderately slow air speed
-Moderately slow ground speed
-Poor ground camp game, moderate aircamp but lacks projectile
-Linear gameplan, dependant on mindgames
-Extremely light which leads to early deaths
-Very limited approach options
-Momentum based; without the lead, options become limited
​

2.Match- Up Directory (characterName – Match-Up Rating; exportedThreadLink)

(Blue means completed)
(Red means in progress)
(Green means hasn't started)

2.1. Disadvantage; http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=268913
2.2. Disadvantage; http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=269691
2.3. Slight Advantage; http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=270422
2.4. Slight Disadvantage; http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=271022
2.5. Preliminary rating: Even
2.6. Even; http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=275695
2.7 Disadvantage; http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=271925
2.8 Preliminary rating:Even/ Slight Advantage
2.9 Preliminary rating: Disadvantage
2.10 Preliminary rating: Slight Disadvantage
2.11 Slight Disadvantage; From the enemies' board: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7888242&postcount=45
2.12 Disadvantage; http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=271926
2.13 Slight Disadvantage; http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=283021
2.14 Preliminary rating: Even
2.16 Even; http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=275696
2.17 Slight Disadvantage; http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=277819
2.18 Even; http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=268916
2.19 Slight Advantage; http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=269796
2.20 Even; http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=271023
2.21 Preliminary rating: Even
2.22 Advantage; http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=285392
2.23 Preliminary rating: Even
2.24 Preliminary rating: Slight Advantage
2.25 Preliminary rating: Even
2.26 Advantage; http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=11247107#post11247107
2.27 :shiek: Large Advantage; http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=274630
2.28 Preliminary rating: Slight Advantage
2.29 Preliminary rating: Slight Advantage
2.30 Slight Advantage; http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=280446
2.31 Large Advantage; http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=280447
2.32 Large Advantage From the enemies' board: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=285962&page=13
2.33 Preliminary rating: Slight Advantage
2.34 Advantage; http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=283541
2.35 Large Advantage; http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=283543
2.36 Preliminary rating: Slight Advantage
2.37 Preliminary rating: Advantage​

 

[Sage JoWii]

Personal Comments

17 in 5 mnths. That's like...one a week-ish.

I'm considering trying to make the thread look a bit prettier so maybe that'll happen soon.

10/12/10) 22 in 7mnths. That's like......one a week-ish again. So far keeping up a good pace imo.

 

[Sage JoWii]

Update1: We've switched from posting very general match-up ratios to listing what kind of match-up it is (Disadvantage, Slight Disadvantage, Even, Slight Advantage, Advantage.)

Update2: I've decided to discontinue the 'What NOT to do' section of the match-up summaries because it's really pointless. I could just put it in the how to win section.

Update3: I've taken the liberty of checking on the rest of the boards MU discussions. The MUs that we need to complete haven't been discussed on other boards or is vastly outdated. W/ that said, the MUs that are relevant and have been discussed HAVE been linked (Ganon, TL).

Update4: For the last few MUs (mostly low tier and rarely played MUs) I've decided to leave out the 'Kirby Pros and Cons' section because it's redundant. The same pros and cons exist for Kirby that have always existed. If this isn't harmful to the discussions and summaries then I'll go back, clean up the first summaries, and update this thread w/ a standard 'Kirby Pros and Cons' list for ALL MUs

 

[Kewkky]

So... What's gonna happen? Who are we starting with, when, and how do you plan to go with this? Gonna start all of the discussions over again, from MK until Ganon (not saying it's a bad thing)?

 

[A1lion835]

I think it'd be a good idea to learn from the mistakes (and good ideas too, I guess) I made with the previous matchup thread (and some of the good things, I guess).

Here are some of the important things I've learned from my experience:

1. Don't be a lazy ***. You'll get a ton of work piled up and people start to flame you.
2. Use the summary format that's in the previous thread. It works. (<3 MK26.)
3. Get other people to volunteer to do some summaries (okay, you can sometimes be lazy). I'm willing to write a summary once in a while, if I can overcome my extreme laziness (see: #1).
4. Use your experience in being really involved in matchup discussions to write long blogs which should get featured but then don't.
5. As a suggestion for the export thread method, I think it'd be a good idea to have several discussions going on at once, with summaries on the OP of each thread.

I will won't be angry if you don't follow all of these direction things (especially #4 lol), they're just suggestions. Run the thread however you want, those are just some things I thought it would be good to tell you.

 

[TaterSalad0811]

^This

The summaries are one of the most important parts, IMO (which is currently worthless), otherwise people (like me) aren't going to know MU unless they were there when it was discussed.

And we recently did Lucas, Ness, Samus, Diddy (sort of) and Falco (in a different thread, I think we agreed on either 50:50 or 55:45, though not sure which side), and I think that was it, so after adding those in, how about we do Olimar, since that's being asked a lot, and nobody has anything definitive on it. Get us some ANSWERs, Jowii.

 

[A1lion835]

Summaries are important not only for people who weren't greatly involved in the discussion, but also for people who want to see the more important points of the matchup without reading through 100 posts.

By the looks of the OP, we're starting with MK and going down, but if we aren't, I suggest Falco as one of the first few. There are a ton of ratios (the most extreme I've seen are 60:40 in either's advantage) floating around, and we really need to solidify one of them.

 

[Kewkky]

Just a suggestion: release the MU exports like ever week or so, and only keep like 2-3 active export threads. You get a lot of work piled up if you release all of the exports immediately, and as well pile up work for us when other boards come in and post stuff for us to reply to.

 

[Triple R]

oh wow lol, I just read those match up summaries. it sure is true kirby hasn't changed much, but I think our understanding of the matchups have. Some of those seemed really dated lol.

 

[A1lion835]

oh wow lol, I just read those match up summaries. it sure is true kirby hasn't changed much, but I think our understanding of the matchups have. Some of those seemed really dated lol.

All of those summaries were written by me, and the post with all the summaries in it hasn't been updated since November. xD

So yea, if they seem dated, it's not just you.

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ This might be the first match up thread to last a year for us. O_o ☆

☆ Yea, at least two active active export threads is a great idea. ☆

 

[TaterSalad0811]

Like the idea, finally I can start contributing quasi-legit information again. Lulz.

 

[Kewkky]

It sucks how I can't help much with CPs, since I always counterpick Battlefield against everyone. I usually never choose any other stages against every character, unless it's known as a bad stage for them at all times.

 

[Tiersie]

You and your BF complex... You need help man.

 

[TaterSalad0811]

Well, BF is a great Kirby stage, you can stage spike after a spit under the stage with an Uair, which people seem to not see coming, and Kirby loves platforms and such. Not to mention personal preference factors in. We both happen to like that neutral. Though I've recently been experimenting with YI.

 

[A1lion835]

I know that JoWii hasn't had a chance to do much here lately, but isn't it time to start a new discussion? None of the 3 we have are active...

 

[Triple R]

Did the Diddy Kongs even get invited to the Diddy matchup discussion? I don't see a single Diddy post in that thread yet.

 

[TaterSalad0811]

Sorry I forgot to post this, site died as it was coming in. Luckily, I was able to copy it before it was too late:

Funny story about that. Though just read the entire thing next time.

See, once upon in a time, long, long ago, in a faraway matchup thread, there was a Lucas discussion. I say that because both the Kirby mod (Bunny) and the thread owner (Giovanni) had both been off the site for quite some time, and nobody was able to change the thread title. There were a few discuzams after that, like a Samus and short-lived Ness discuzam. Eventually, the majority of the Kirby mains stopped posting, except for me and Berserker. We decided to do the Diddy MU next, but after a few posts, we realized that the Kirbys had all left. I asked if Berserker could "get some more people in here", and he then went to the Diddy boards and invited some of the people from their MU discuzams. We then had a semi-intelligent discuzam, though with a shortage of Kirby for it being on our board. Regardless, there was a discuzam.

Later, after realizing that the board was kinda messy, we decided to nominate Kewkky as the new mod, and put Jowii in charge of the new MU discuzam thread. Running down the Tourney Results ranking list, we came across Diddy Kong after finishing with Snake. I tried saying that we already did a MU discuzam in the old thread, (see above), and after realizing that nobody had a clue what I was talking about, I quoted all the posts in the Diddy Kong discuzam that I felt were important from the old thread, which is why there was a massive post from yours truly.

I then saw a new post in the central MU thread, asking why no Diddy Kong mains had put their input into the MU discuzam from a Kirby main named Triple R. I then went on to explain the whole story behind that, and it went something like this:

Once upon in a time, long, long ago, in a faraway matchup thread...

 

[Sage JoWii]

>_> But notice that there are two new exports to talk in and the diddy kong summary will be up by tonight.

 

[TaterSalad0811]

Oh yeah, didn't notice the new export threads. God knows I hate Marth in Brawl.

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ You should start Ice Climbers and/or Mr. Game & Watch next. Mr. & Watch can be debated, Ice Climbers..... I just don't know anymore that match up anymore. -_-; ☆

 

[TaterSalad0811]

Ice climbers is really curious to me. If I had more time, I'd type my reasoning behind saying how this is looked at the wrong way, but that's for next time.

I just hate G&W players that play like arses in non-tourney games. They make me angry.

 

[Kewkky]

G&W's not hard to figure out at all. It sucks being punished, but it's not that hard to know what he's gonna do. :D

 

[TaterSalad0811]

I know what he intends to do. Not falling for it is the problem, little flat burgster (i censor myself like that in real life too) can be smarter than they first appear. That or I suck.

Will make semi-intelligent Ice Climber MU post later.

 

[Sage JoWii]

Wait for the threads!!! PLZ.
I'll set them up tomorrow and invite Hylian who mains both characters to leave us some knowledge if he can.
Be patient!

 

[TaterSalad0811]

So I spent about 20 minutes writing out a page-long explanation on how the previous MU was viewed, what needs to be interpreted differently, and why Kirby vs. Climbers is at least 55-45 advantage Kirby. Then I got an "ERROR 400" message.

God I'm hating this place more and more each day...

 

[Kewkky]

Nope, ICs vs Kirby isn't our advantage. BUT I have to say, I don't think it's 30:70 either. The MU isn't that hard if you keep to the air, it's better to take some uairs than to take a grab!

 

[TaterSalad0811]

W/e, I'm not writing my thing again, but if you ask SWF very kindly, it might let you see it.

 

[Sage JoWii]

Tater, no. Just no. If you write that MU in Kirby's favor I will slam that summary so hard, you'll feel like you got rocked from the blastzone. Just no.

 

[Tiersie]

Tater, no. Just no. If you write that MU in Kirby's favor I will slam that summary so hard, you'll feel like you got rocked from the blastzone. Just no.

He can write it. That doesn't mean it'll be good or anything by any means, but at least it will spark a (onesided) discussion.

 

[Sage JoWii]

You're right Tiersie.

@ Tater- Sorry I jumped the gun.

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ Some Kirby players say it's our favor, however that's maybe like less than 5% of the different Kirby's I've heard said that. For some odd reason, this thread comes back to me everytime I see Kirby vs Ice Climbers: ☆

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=238908

 

[Kewkky]

Jowii, don't worry about any new exports! In fact, instead of doing two new ones every week, why dontcha just do a new one everytime an export has enough discussion? Cuz as you can see, the Marth one had a lot of discussion but the other one that was there at the same time didn't. Now the IC one has a lot of discussion but the G&W one doesn't.

Maybe this means that we do better with one discussion at a time? If you still want to do two, then give us more time before you choose other discussions, ok?

 

[Berserker.]

45:55 Snake?

I thought it was 40:60? Oh well, makes more sense when Kirby has nades

 

[DarkDefeater]

Anyone feel like doing a kirby vs. pit discussion? Lately, I've been playing a lot of pit matches and generally, the game goes either way.

I get caught by his dashing, then angel ring, more times than I care to admit. I suppose I need to be better at predicting, predict when the move is pulled out, roll, and then punish.

Are there any other helpful tips?

 

[Berserker.]

Are we allowed to discuss in the original thread or we should wait for an open discussion. Or maybe, the FAQ Jo wii?

 

[Sage JoWii]

@ Berserker- Sorry been finishiing my college classes and with finals coming up ive been busy ^_^;

Go ahead and you can discuss in here if you like? I'll get a MU export up tomorrow and I'll just cut and past/ quote anything said in here.

 

[A1lion835]

JoWii, could you also start a Falco discussion? The opinions I've seen have ranged from 60:40 in either's favor, so we need some consensus on it.

I think it's 50:50 or 55:45 Falco's favor, but it can fluctuate a lot depending on how well both players know the matchup.

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ Mind as well. It's only Falco's favor if you either A) get laser camp without a proper approach, or B) don't tilt string him when you have the chance, or C) don't gimp him if you have the chance. ☆

 

[A1lion835]

Kirby only gets 18% from fthrow->uair, while Falco has more % (and possible follow-ups) from dthrow chaingrabs. Illusion is hard to gimp IIRC, but bair might hit through it. If you can manage to get him in a situation where you can gimp him he should lose his stock, but that shouldn't really happen against a good Falco who knows his stuff. Laser camping is a *****, and while it can be gone around sort of by crouch-walking, it's impractical in almost any other situation and there are better things the Kirby main should be spending his time on learning (unless this Kirby is ideal). It's much harder for Kirby to rack on damage throughout the stock, while Falco can do it easier. HOWEVER, the Falco has to be EXTREMELY careful the entire game, because being knocked offstage means a ton of % and maybe a stock.

Okay, I'm changing my opinion now that I think about it, 55:45 in either's favor sounds good to me.