Kirby General Discussion

[ryuu seika]

I tried that but apparently I'm beyond help...

 

[bubbaking]

hey just a quick question, any notable Kirby mains out there?
I know Armada has a pretty mean Kirby.

Well, to be honest, as a "top professional" Armada could probably do well w/ most any character.

I tried that but apparently I'm beyond help...

I doubt that, man. You just need to play with others more and you'll pick up stuff.

 

[DerfMidWest]

kirby is pretty fun in doubles.

Kirby/Puff is the rapest team ever.

 

[bubbaking]

Yes, he is fun in doubles. I've trolled some pretty good ppl in doubles w/ kirbycides and swallowcides. Also, I believe Kirby swallowing a dying teammate is pretty darn good in doubles. You both get your jumps back and if you press B (or even A) without them breaking out, they rocket upwards (or forwards then upwards, in the case of A).

 

[DerfMidWest]

Kirby is a pretty good partner, but I'm still sticking to Pichu in serious matches lol.

 

[ryuu seika]

It seems I play very differently when enraged and, while it may just be blind violent instinct, it's surprisingly action efficient.

 

[DerfMidWest]

RAAAAAGE MODE O.O

lolz.

can't really see an angry kirby :S
you gotta pick the red one.
then play aggressive (somehow)
all like kick->kick->kick

has anybody ever noticed that you can play kirby like zelda?
It works kind of well.

but you can do fancier stuff than zelda because you have more than 2.5 moves.

 

[ryuu seika]

There are a few headbutts and fireballs but yeah, it's pretty much all kicks. The whole game plan revolves around juggling them and knowing (instinctively) how to be in the right place at the right time to do so.
And red kirby hurts my sensitive european eyes (hence why he's probably top of the Kirby tier list).

Also, I can't play Zelda so...

 

[DerfMidWest]

lol i dislike red kirbeh tbh, I like the green one, the white one, and the normal one.

My kirby is better than my zelda, even though they both just bair the whole time

well... my Kirby does a bit more than that...
he uairs sometimes.
sometimes fairs or dairs.
tilts quite a bit.
and does a bunch of dthrow and uthrow.
Uthrow Kirbysides make me lol everytime.

 

[standardtoaster]

I should get the yoshi hitbox stuff done so I can get working on kirby soon. But school stuff. :/

 

[bubbaking]

Kirby>Pichu >

 

[ryuu seika]

Kirby>>?

EDIT: how come Fox can ledgegrab out of FireFox from like 1.5 times his body width away when Kirby can't hit a Fox on the ledge and still not grab with Final Cutter?

 

[DerfMidWest]

Kirby>Pichu >

lol.
you silly.

 

[bubbaking]

Well, maybe 1.5 times his body width is a bit of an exaggeration, but yeah, it's inexcusable. Those Spacees get everything under the sun good for them. Lightweight, yet nearly impossible to kill off the top, 2 great ways to recover, the ability to grab the ledge backwards at the end of their upB, and a 1-frame shine that also cancels all vertical momentum. Real cool... -_- Tbh though, I think Kirby's air dodge is better than the Spacees (it's similar to Jigg's) which is why he should use it to recover more.

 

[ryuu seika]

Dodges are dumb.

Also, kicking a floaty Peach does nothing but her landing on me gets me hit with the umbrella and Doc can Shoryuken during hit 3 of my Dair (after taking hits 1 and 2). WTF is up with everyone having super Kirby killing power all of a sudden and why can my feet do everything but ledgegrab?

 

[Massive]

Dodges are dumb.

Also, kicking a floaty Peach does nothing but her landing on me gets me hit with the umbrella and Doc can Shoryuken during hit 3 of my Dair (after taking hits 1 and 2). WTF is up with everyone having super Kirby killing power all of a sudden and why can my feet do everything but ledgegrab?

Level 9s do that, people don't.

 

[DerfMidWest]

people can do that.
and thats all that matters.


anyways, bubbarex, I agree spacies are gehy and all and pretty much have auto ****s, but their recovery is not good... they don't have 2 "great ways to recover," their recovery is mediocre at the most. Its so easy to gimp that its not even funny. And while their weight is a good thing, it leads to them getting combo'd easily and chaingrab by most of the cast.

lol@me defending space animals.

 

[ryuu seika]

people can do that.
and thats all that matters.

Exactly. I don't wish to outplay what is plausible, I wish to outplay what is possible and at current, "possible" seems to be "HAXXXXX!!!!".

 

[bubbaking]

Dodges are dumb.

Very often, Kirby's upB can be more dumb. I remember you arguing this on another thread a couple years ago (or maybe only one year, can't remember). Kirby's upB can be gimped and once that happens, you usually can't make it back w/ ANYTHING anymore. On the other hand, the air dodge at least gives you some invincibility, you can control where it goes, and Kirby's air dodge distance seems to be better than a lot of other chars.

anyways, bubbarex, I agree spacies are gehy and all and pretty much have auto ****s, but their recovery is not good... they don't have 2 "great ways to recover," their recovery is mediocre at the most. Its so easy to gimp that its not even funny. And while their weight is a good thing, it leads to them getting combo'd easily and chaingrab by most of the cast.

lol@me defending space animals.

True, their weight (or rather, their fastfalling) allows some otherwise impossible combos, but at the same time, it invalidates others, especially ones that set up guaranteed KOs, such as Sheik's infamous dthrow>fair/uair.

As for recoveries, well, I was mostly talking about Fox. Being able to recover from the bottom of the screen w/ no jumps on most stages is something no other character, except maybe Zelda, Pika, and Pichu, can do. He can easily angle the firefox to always sweetspot and if you try to get in the way at the wrong time, you don't even get to trade. I tried to fair him out of the starting animation w/ Sheik (before he starts moving) and all I got was damage on myself w/ nothing to show for it. Even though Falco's recovery isn't nearly so good, getting surprise meteor smashes on off-guard opponents is a nice gimmick.

My biggest gripes w/ Spacees are that dumb 1-frame shine and Fox's ability to recover from a ridiculous distance at all angles. All in all, this just greatly illustrates how much more balanced PAL Melee is than our NTSC Melee. Fox's shine is still around but at least getting to kill him faster counteracts that somewhat.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Foxes recovery goes far, yes, but its still incredibly gimpable...
especially with sheiks fair lol.

The shine is dumb. It does dumb things.
But their recovery is not the reason they are good.

 

[bubbaking]

Well, if you fair at the wrong time, you get nothing. I agree w/ you in that their recovery is gimbable and not the reason they're top tier. One can see that in PAL, since Fox is still up there, but since we're on the subject of PAL, whatever changes Fox got must have balanced the metagame more since other lower tiers stand more of a chance now. He only got 2 major changes, weaker upwards killing moves and a shorter recovery. So while the recovery doesn't make Fox top tier, it certainly helps.

 

[Beat!]

My biggest gripes w/ Spacees

Fox's ability to recover from a ridiculous distance at all angles

wat

I could think of like 1335435 things that are a bigger concern.
Like Aesirgod said, it's not terrible or anything, but it's gimpable, and it's definitely not one of the main reasons why Fox is so good.

 

[DerfMidWest]

lol then fair at the right time maybe?
It sound like you just have to learn your character's moves a little better.

smacking a spacey out of their recovery is very simple, and very rewarding.

I do it all the time with Pichu's nair, which is much smaller and less broken than Sheik's fair, so yea.

 

[Beat!]

Also, even though nerfing Fox in PAL certainly helped low tiers, changing Sheiks down throw was what really made a much greater difference in that regard.

 

[ryuu seika]

upB... air dodge...

True, UpB can be bad and airdodge is actually a useful instance of dodging but I just can't get used to it. It uses an otherwise suicidal button.

He can easily angle the firefox to always sweetspot and if you try to get in the way at the wrong time, you don't even get to trade.

Not true. "Meteor Dash" trades with Firefox during its motion in the most beneficial way possible. Assuming you can get it off, you receive knockback in the direction of Fox's motion (ie towards the ledge) with all your jumps in tact, while fox receives knockback in your motion (downwards and away from the ledge) with his fall speed ontop, no recovery move for a fair while and, unless I'm mistaken, all jumps lost. Recovery from there is outright impossible, short of a Randall miracle.

I'm not exactly enough of a master to abuse this trick but predictable recoveries like that are so dashbait.

All in all, this just greatly illustrates how much more balanced PAL Melee is than our NTSC Melee.

Maybe it is but Fox is still by far the hardest opponent.

 

[Triple R]

Regarding Fox's recovery, I hope you guys realize this is the Kirby boards.

Yes Fox's recovery isn't the best, but against Kirby it is still a good recovery. The only times Fox should get gimped by Kirby is if he is recovering low.

If they recover high it may take awhile to kill them. It's very common for a Kirby to bair Fox out of firefox upwards of 3-4 times and the fox can still make it back to the stage.

I don't care about sheik fairing foxes....

 

[Bing]

I sorta gave up on Kirby... Ill pick him back up when I get better overall

 

[bubbaking]

Also, even though nerfing Fox in PAL certainly helped low tiers, changing Sheiks down throw was what really made a much greater difference in that regard.

Well, it's true that Shiek's nerfs made a huge difference, but counter-intuitively, she moved up to 2nd place on the tier list. Fox's and Sheik's combined nerfs, especially ones centered around killing moves, allowed lower tiered chars, e.g. Samus, etc., to move up phenomenally.

Not true. "Meteor Dash" trades with Firefox during its motion in the most beneficial way possible. Assuming you can get it off, you receive knockback in the direction of Fox's motion (ie towards the ledge) with all your jumps in tact, while fox receives knockback in your motion (downwards and away from the ledge) with his fall speed ontop, no recovery move for a fair while and, unless I'm mistaken, all jumps lost. Recovery from there is outright impossible, short of a Randall miracle.

I'm not exactly enough of a master to abuse this trick but predictable recoveries like that are so dashbait.

And if you screw up, you end up offstage, at an awkward angle, in a really bad position. I'm not saying to never use dash attack, but I don't think this is one of the uses it should be utilized for. Too much risk and too little reward. It doesn't even have that much knockback... -_-

I sorta gave up on Kirby... Ill pick him back up when I get better overall

((

 

[Massive]

Not true. "Meteor Dash" trades with Firefox during its motion in the most beneficial way possible. Assuming you can get it off, you receive knockback in the direction of Fox's motion (ie towards the ledge) with all your jumps in tact, while fox receives knockback in your motion (downwards and away from the ledge) with his fall speed ontop, no recovery move for a fair while and, unless I'm mistaken, all jumps lost. Recovery from there is outright impossible, short of a Randall miracle.

What are you talking about? Almost every fox I've ever played has no problem meteor cancelling with another up-b less than a few frames after a hit. If you dash off the side and miss they WILL do an assortment of awful, awful things to you. They will likely get back on the stage before you do if you do connect, and Kirby is among the most vulnerable characters when he's off the stage because of his slow/bad horizontal recovery.

Kirby has several decent ledgeguards against space animals (dtilt, ftilt, bair, dsmash), but dash attack should not be considered one of them.

 

[DerfMidWest]

lol I agree with massive, dashing off the stage is somewhat ********.
Unless you're trying to look fancy.
In which case, don't miss.
normally, I like bair back to stage or using any of kirby's tilts to edgeguard spacies (which I still don't think is that hard, even with kirby)

 

[bubbaking]

Bair back to stage? To stage spike?

 

[ryuu seika]

@various dash comments: In those few frames they fall a surprisingly large way, usually killing them before they can Firefox again and likely putting them out of range the few times they actually can. Trust me, trading dash with recoveries is near certain kill and a lot less likely to backfire than a regular attack if it actually connects.
Yes, it is complete and utter suicidal fail if you miss, which is why it's not the amazing trick it could be, and it fails even worse against the few recoveries that it outright beats. Still, assuming your opponent recovers in a way that opens them up to it and you know how to pull it off, it is an amazing kill tool.

Edge guarding Fox, on the other hand, takes forever and often ends up not working because he can keep Firefoxing back almost indefinitely. If you don't kill, Dair out of the charging animation or Meteor Dash into the attack are the only options I see TBH.

 

[bubbaking]

Umm, I'm pretty sure Fox doesn't die off the bottom in a "few frames", even if he is the fastest faller. Dair and bair are probably your best bets.

 

[Triple R]

Considering dash attack knockback sends you up, I wouldn't do it. If they are at high percent you just sent them really high. If they are at low percent they get out of hit stun fast and can still recover.

 

[Massive]

Bair back to stage? To stage spike?

Stage spiking is not a reliable strategy, any decent player will tech it and you will be at the disadvantage because of kirby's terrible recovery. You bair/ftilt/dtilt their recovery away from the stage, take the ledge, and then continue doing it until they cannot get the ledge.

Kirby's dair is not reliable unless you are forcing them downwards with your momentum, just throwing out a dair from the safety of the ledge will give them plenty of time to start another recovery attempt while you're still recovering from the dair. You have to have some serious downward momentum with dair to use it as an effective recovery gimp.

@Ryuu Seika: have you been to a tournament yet? Have you played any other people recently?
I'm not trying to be a ****, but every ability you've attributed to dash attack here is something that only works on CPUs because they're only try a recovery once in most situations.

 

[Bing]

To edge guard Fox you defs jump infront of him and swallowcide. derp.

 

[ryuu seika]

Considering dash attack knockback sends you up

Not when you're being hit from above it doesn't.

@Ryuu Seika: have you been to a tournament yet? Have you played any other people recently?
I'm not trying to be a ****, but every ability you've attributed to dash attack here is something that only works on CPUs because they're only try a recovery once in most situations.

They recover endlessly when I edgeguard normally...

To edge guard Fox you defs jump infront of him and swallowcide. derp.

Darn, I should have seen that. So much simpler and so much better too.

 

[bubbaking]

Swallowciding SOUNDS simple and effective, but it really isn't. Aerial swallows have much less range than grounded ones and the move has a lot of startup and lag in general. You would have to virtually predict where they were going with their recovery and perform your swallow before you could visually confirm that your prediction was correct. The move also has very little vertical range, so it would be really easy to shoot over it or sweetspot under it. Finally, if you screw up, you're offstage in a bad position, probably a really bad one thanks to the move's noticeable lag. Ryuuka, I can't say for certain, but I think Bing was just trolling w/ that one. ;P

 

[bubbaking]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=206157&page=8

Yo, AesirGod! Help me out in defending YOUR character! >:-|

 

[Massive]

Why would you defend pichu? He's like a crappy version of pikachu. There are no trap frames on dsmash, no crazy tail, tiny range, and super-duper low weight.

Flight goggles are cool, but I don't even know why he was put in the game to begin with, he's the least different clone of the clones, felt like he was tacked on at the end because they needed one more character and Sega wasn't budging with the Sonic thing.