KingJigglypuff's Project M Throne Room! 09/08/2019: Fighting Alloy Team Pack Updated

[KingJigglypuff]

Alright. Like I said, it shouldn't be a huge change. Could you post the before/after of the texture resolution changes when you get to it?

Sure.

512 x 512 (What I wanted, but doesn't work)

Spoiler

256x256 (What works in Brawl)

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128x128 (What works in PM)

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Nah

Don't let your memes be dreams.

Do you mean like
+ ,+ and + ? Each one yielding a different form? That sounds awesome.

Actually, it goes like this.

Input the standard Down Special combination ( + ) to go into Down Special.

Then during Down Special, hold the Control Stick in one angle to get a form.

None: Normal.

: Attack.

: Defense.

or : Speed.

Though so the AI can actually transform, I may make it so No Input = Random Form and = back to Normal Form.

-snip

Waluigi is already too late in development to be changing something so vital to his moveset.

 

[PseudoTypical]

He took a pretty big hit there, actually... Maybe Drogoth could see about optimizing it further (if he's implying it could be done)? I think it shouldn't go lower than 256×256 if it can be helped.

 

[Draco_The]

How many textures are you using?

 

[KingJigglypuff]

How many textures are you using?

13 different textures.

Eyes: 3 (PAT0).

Final Smash Eyes: 3 (PAT0).

Crystal: 2.

Each Form: 1(*4).

Shine Effect: 1.

Total: 13.

He took a pretty big hit there, actually... Maybe Drogoth could see about optimizing it further (if he's implying it could be done)? I think it shouldn't go lower than 256×256 if it can be helped.

It's mainly the models that make the file size so large to my understanding. Though I don't think even the best optimization would allow 4 512x512 textures. This is one reason why Brawl's limitations are so frustrating. :v

 

[Draco_The]

With some UV work you may be able to reduce the number of the textures used for the forms. They share some patterns like the black/gray parts in normal, attack and speed and the blue details. Otherwise IDK.
I don't think optimizing the models would change enough the filesize unless you made something like Nefnoj's "shadow model".

 

[PseudoTypical]

It's mainly the models that make the file size so large to my understanding. Though I don't think even the best optimization would allow 4 512x512 textures. This is one reason why Brawl's limitations are so frustrating. :v

If you can only do 256×256, I still think it's a huge improvement. The decrease hits it hardest at 128×128 IMO.

 

[KingJigglypuff]

Edit: I was able to get the 256x256 textures working. I forgot to replace the PM Toon Link with my edits for testing, but this brings up a bigger issue. The said issue being I won't have as much room for moveset and animation edits, as the Fighter Resource 1 (or 2) has a max file size with FitChar00.pac/.pcs, Fit Char.pac, and FitCharMotionEtc.pac. So even if it's a tiny bit, any sort of optimization from Drogoth will help tremendously.

This also brings up a worry that file size limitations will prevent Deoxys from becoming a reality.

With some UV work you may be able to reduce the number of the textures used for the forms. They share some patterns like the black/gray parts in normal, attack and speed and the blue details. Otherwise IDK.

I wouldn't want to fiddle with the UVs.

The decrease hits it hardest at 128×128 IMO.

I'll have to agree.

 

[Nefnoj]

I wouldn't want to fiddle with the UVs.

Nobody wants to fiddle with UV's. They're a pain in the sweet baby tush.

Sure.

512 x 512 (What I wanted, but doesn't work)

Spoiler

256x256 (What works in Brawl)

Spoiler

128x128 (What works in PM)

Spoiler

To me, the lowest 128 texture still looks pretty good, it just makes deoxys looks extra squishy. Thank goodness he's a character with a lot of single-colour textures.

Input the standard Down Special combination ( + ) to go into Down Special.

Then during Down Special, hold the Control Stick in one angle to get a form.

None: Normal.

: Attack.

: Defense.

or : Speed.

Though so the AI can actually transform, I may make it so No Input = Random Form and = back to Normal Form.

That's just brilliant, I'm so excited! I've always loved alternate form characters, and the random form thing has a lot of fun potential for gameplay.

Waluigi is already perfect in everything ever.

Fixed that for you, my King.

 

[Notshane]

Darn, mid-October and still no WAH. Well, either way, I have already made the beta version of Waluigi more favorable with my custom CSP and sound file, so I can wait a little longer.

But, man, now I start to wonder what will come first: Waluigi or the DLC for Sm4sh? Heck, maybe even Project M 4.0 might come before either one of those! Only time will tell now. I personally hope the WAH finds his way here before the other two.

 

[Cahalan]

KingJigglypuff Is there any other character you've modded over that has more room for PSA modding than Toon Link, like Pit for example?

 

[Draco_The]

Darn, mid-October and still no WAH. Well, either way, I have already made the beta version of Waluigi more favorable with my custom CSP and sound file, so I can wait a little longer.

But, man, now I start to wonder what will come first: Waluigi or the DLC for Sm4sh? Heck, maybe even Project M 4.0 might come before either one of those! Only time will tell now. I personally hope the WAH finds his way here before the other two.

I don't know if you realize this, but you're putting a lot of pressure on these guys by saying things like that, and no one can work well under pressure.

 

[KingJigglypuff]

Despite Drogoth's efforts, the edits were unfortunately minuscule (his model edits only shaved off about 0.6 MB).

If I run into issues along the way, I may have to just request custom Deoxys models, which would cause the project to be delayed a bit.

Is there any other character you've modded over that has more room for PSA modding than Toon Link, like Pit for example?

I'm not sure if Pit would have that much more room than Toon Link, regarding how large Deoxys' model files are.

 

[Crystalruby]

Despite Drogoth's efforts, the edits were unfortunately minuscule (his model edits only shaved off about 0.6 MB).

If I run into issues along the way, I may have to just request custom Deoxys models, which would cause the project to be delayed a bit.

I'm not sure if Pit would have that much more room than Toon Link, regarding how large Deoxys' model files are.

Despite this post. We got Ridley over Pit, and they said he was too big to fit in the game!

 

[KingJigglypuff]

Despite this post. We got Ridley over Pit, and they said he was too big to fit in the game!

Don't you give me that sass. >:v I already have to deal with enough sass from Drogoth.

 

[Notshane]

I don't know if you realize this, but you're putting a lot of pressure on these guys by saying things like that, and no one can work well under pressure.

I mean...I wasn't trying to say that......I was just joking around with all the waiting and.........darn, I was being a douchebag again, wasn't I? I didn't notice that until I reread it. Seemed funny at the time...

Man, I am glad that Ganondorf mod is coming out soon. It will distract me from saying dumb things as I play with his glorious magical powers. And, as I said before, ever since I heard the story back in August, I am still willing to be patient, even if it is until next year.

I did not want to unfold another round of drama again. I certainly learned that lesson the hard way when I realized nobody knew of my conduct on how I judge people and it made me think that...well, best I just leave those ashes be. You can just go back a few pages to get what I am saying.

But, I still support the project a lot and my contributions to the beta Waluigi were proof of that. I still will patiently await for the finalized product, no longer with complaints.

 

[KingJigglypuff]

Progress on Attack Form's Neutral Special.

Projectile preview (visuals will be changed at a later time): http://gfycat.com/FlawlessMagnificentCondor

Initial projectile damage output: http://gfycat.com/EvenDamagedBobwhite

Showcase of charging the projectile to the max: http://gfycat.com/KlutzyAltruisticIberianchiffchaff

Current mechanics: A straightforward projectile that travels a short distance before bursting. Charge the projectile to increase the damage of the burst hit. I would love to have the projectile's charge be stored and increase distance with charge, but I can't, due to the limitations. (Article porting when pls.)

This is honestly the best I can get with Toon Link's boomerang.

I'm also having a bit of artist's block, regarding the Idle animation, so if someone wants to come up with an idea, then feel free to do so.

 

[PseudoTypical]

I really like the GFX already! Good work, it's a nice twist on the Shadow Ball formula.

As for the idles, each form of Deoxys should have an idle stance from the Pokemon games already, so why not use those? They should be pretty easily found, but if necessary I can dig for them.

 

[KingJigglypuff]

As for the idles, each form of Deoxys should have an idle stance from the Pokemon games already, so why not use those? They should be pretty easily found, but if necessary I can dig for them.

The Pokemon game idles are too lifeless for a game like Smash.

 

[PseudoTypical]

The Pokemon game idles are too lifeless for a game like Smash.

You don't think they would work if made slightly more spirited? Deoxys is sorta hard to show having a lot of character since he's so alien.

 

[KingJigglypuff]

You don't think they would work if made slightly more spirited? Deoxys is sorta hard to show having a lot of character since he's so alien.

My initial ideas for their idles are as such...
Normal: A neutral-looking animation. I guess the X/Y idle could work.
Attack: A striking, offensive, menacing animation.
Defense: A noble, defensive animation.
Speed: A quick and exciting animation.

 

[PseudoTypical]

My initial ideas for their idles are as such...
Normal: A neutral-looking animation. I guess the X/Y idle could work.
Attack: A striking, offensive, menacing animation.
Defense: A noble, defensive animation.
Speed: A quick and exciting animation.

Okay, that makes sense. I just looked at the animations on Smogon and I definitely agree with you. All except for the normal animation are way too boring. I think he could undo one of his arms once in a while in Normal form as well.

For attack, I don't have a particular animation per se, but I see him sorta having a vibe like Carnage from the Spider-Man comics: very on-edge, and not particularly formal. He's not bestial necessarily, just very eager to hurt something. Hope that helps.

For defense, I think he could stand pretty upright as opposed to some of his idles/sprites, so as to seem more 'noble' as you put it. He should move pretty slowly here since he loses a lot of speed, but should be looking like he's trying to make himself steadfast to the ground.

For speed, maybe you could have him do a sort of Double Team-ish movement periodically? Just a thought, tell me what you think.

 

[drogoth232]

He took a pretty big hit there, actually... Maybe Drogoth could see about optimizing it further (if he's implying it could be done)? I think it shouldn't go lower than 256×256 if it can be helped.

If KJP wants to deal with fixing the UVs, I don't mind optimizing it further.

 

[KingJigglypuff]

Okay, that makes sense. I just looked at the animations on Smogon and I definitely agree with you. All except for the normal animation are way too boring. I think he could undo one of his arms once in a while in Normal form as well.

The tentacles are a pain, but I'll be able to do it.

For attack, I don't have a particular animation per se, but I see him sorta having a vibe like Carnage from the Spider-Man comics: very on-edge, and not particularly formal. He's not bestial necessarily, just very eager to hurt something. Hope that helps.

Mind linking me to Carnage's spritework of his idle?

For defense, I think he could stand pretty upright as opposed to some of his idles/sprites, so as to seem more 'noble' as you put it. He should move pretty slowly here since he loses a lot of speed, but should be looking like he's trying to make himself steadfast to the ground.

I think what I might do is use the X/Y idle and edit it a bit.

For speed, maybe you could have him do a sort of Double Team-ish movement periodically? Just a thought, tell me what you think.

For Speed, I may edit the X/Y animation to be more dynamic.

If KJP wants to deal with fixing the UVs, I don't mind optimizing it further.

I know very little about UVs, so that's a no go. :x

 

[PseudoTypical]

The tentacles are a pain, but I'll be able to do it.

Mind linking me to Carnage's spritework of his idle?

I think what I might do is use the X/Y idle and edit it a bit.

For Speed, I may edit the X/Y animation to be more dynamic.

I know very little about UVs, so that's a no go. :x

Yeah, I figured. Sorry. You know it's gonna look cool, though, so I don't feel that bad about it.

Carnage has been in a couple of games, but he's too OP to be a fighter for the most part, so I can't offer much in that regard. This .gif sort of offers what I'm getting at, but it's a tendril-like attack and not an idle animation.

I don't see what you'll do to make it more dynamic, but I trust your intuition.

Someone I know might want to help, though I'm not sure. What do you think, J jaystring ?

 

[jaystring]

hum.. could you recap me on what is the issues!?

There's 13 page of post, I just want to make sure I get what you're asking.

 

[PseudoTypical]

hum.. could you recap me on what is the issues!?

There's 13 page of post, I just want to make sure I get what you're asking.

Sure. KingJigglypuff is making a Deoxys PSA, but it's really pushing the filesize limits since it uses all four forms. They want to optimize the four models further to help with that, but they need someone to fix the UVs afterwards.

 

[Crystalruby]

Yeah, I figured. Sorry. You know it's gonna look cool, though, so I don't feel that bad about it.

Carnage has been in a couple of games, but he's too OP to be a fighter for the most part, so I can't offer much in that regard. This .gif sort of offers what I'm getting at, but it's a tendril-like attack and not an idle animation.

I don't see what you'll do to make it more dynamic, but I trust your intuition.

Someone I know might want to help, though I'm not sure. What do you think, J jaystring ?

Is there a current model for the OG Deoxys form? May I see it?

 

[PseudoTypical]

Is there a current model for the OG Deoxys form? May I see it?

I don't know what you're talking about. Lol

 

[jaystring]

Sure. KingJigglypuff is making a Deoxys PSA, but it's really pushing the filesize limits since it uses all four forms. They want to optimize the four models further to help with that, but they need someone to fix the UVs afterwards.

ho ok! well, the quickest and best way to lower filesize is playing around with textures. polygons are quite light, it's texture that's taking all the filesize.

1) lowering their compression format in brawlbox (CMPR is the lowest quality but also the lightest)
2) downscaling them (I often use the method of changing their size ratio like taking a 512x512 and making it a 512x256. cut filesize in half and depending on the texture sometimes doesn't impact too much the quality)

For the UV, well yes I know how to change them in 3dsmax but I think lowering too much the polygons will also break the skinning as well.

 

[Crystalruby]

I don't know what you're talking about. Lol

Like a model of one of the forms. From brawlbox or 3dsmax, something like that

 

[Crystalruby]

Like a model of one of the forms. From brawlbox or 3dsmax, something like that

Sorry about the groggy reply, it was 6 in the morning, heh.

 

[KingJigglypuff]

Like a model of one of the forms. From brawlbox or 3dsmax, something like that

Normal.

Spoiler

Attack.

Spoiler

Defense.

Spoiler

Speed.

Spoiler

ho ok! well, the quickest and best way to lower filesize is playing around with textures. polygons are quite light, it's texture that's taking all the filesize.

1) lowering their compression format in brawlbox (CMPR is the lowest quality but also the lightest)
2) downscaling them (I often use the method of changing their size ratio like taking a 512x512 and making it a 512x256. cut filesize in half and depending on the texture sometimes doesn't impact too much the quality)

Not entirely sure if that's the case, as my Solo Charizard has three models in one and uses 4 512x512 textures without having a bloated file size.

 

[jaystring]

Well, polygon have a cost too on filesize of course, it's just that in a case of lowering the texture in half and lowering the polygons in half, you'll get a much lower filesize on the file that you lowered the textures.

have you look to make sure the texture compression is CMPR (or CI8 if you have alpha transparence) on those 512x512?

there is a big difference of filesize with what compression setting you are using, even with 2 texture that would both be 512x512

looking at you models, I don't think you need super high res texture as the texture are quite simple and the models doesn't look like they have a tons of polygons.

What is the filesize of you pac right now? and what size do you aim for the pac file to be!?

If you don't mind sharing your most recent pac file, I don't mind taking a look tonight and see what I can find that could lower your filesize if you want.

 

[Crystalruby]

Normal.

Spoiler

Attack.

Spoiler

Defense.

Spoiler

Speed.

Spoiler

Not entirely sure if that's the case, as my Solo Charizard has three models in one and uses 4 512x512 textures without having a bloated file size.

Holy crap man, that's looking fine! Are you going to include shiny recolors as well?

 

[KingJigglypuff]

have you look to make sure the texture compression is CMPR (or CI8 if you have alpha transparence) on those 512x512?

With my Solo Charizard, all 4 textures are CMPR. Though even though I had the 4 512x512 textures on my Deoxys as CMPR as well, Deoxy's file size was over the limit. The highest I could get with CMPR was 256x265. Though I set the compression to CI8 to make the textures look a bit sharper.

What is the filesize of you pac right now? and what size do you aim for the pac file to be!?

The current FitDeoxys00.pac is 1.25 MB. I'd like the file size to be usable without having to sacrifice texture detail.

If you don't mind sharing your most recent pac file, I don't mind taking a look tonight and see what I can find that could lower your filesize if you want.

I don't mind at all. I'll PM you a link of the current model work.

Are you going to include shiny recolors as well?

Of course I am.
Here are the planned recolors. (sprite recoloring done by MK64DS)

Spoiler

 

[Nefnoj]

Here are the planned recolors. (sprite recoloring done by MK64DS)

Spoiler

Let me guess -
Normal, Shiny, Tentacruel (or inverse Deoxys), something green, Obamasnow (I'm totally using that recolour), Mewtwo, Rayquaza, Groudon, Kyogre, lord Arceus?

 

[KingJigglypuff]

Oh no! I completely forgot about my planned stream last Friday! I'm so sorry. ;-;

Let me guess -
Normal, Shiny, Tentacruel, something green, Obamasnow (I'm totally using that recolour), Mewtwo, Rayquaza, Groudon, Kyogre, lord Arceus?

Shiny, Mewtwo, Rayquaza, Groudon, Kyogre, and Jirachi. I'll have to ask MK about the other 3.

 

[soopercool101]

Oh no! I completely forgot about my planned stream last Friday! I'm so sorry. ;-;

Shiny, Mewtwo, Rayquaza, Groudon, Kyogre, and Jirachi. I'll have to ask MK about the other 3.

My best guesses are Spheal/Sealeo, Shiny Flygon, and Magnemite based on the color palettes. They might just be cool looking palette swaps not based on anything specific though.

 

[PseudoTypical]

Alright, I think I'll just leave you two to figure out this texture/model issue, because you two don't need a middle man and I know nothing about this stuff. lol

 

[Nefnoj]

Alright, I think I'll just leave you two to figure out this texture/model issue, because you two don't need a middle man and I know nothing about this stuff. lol

I can teach you!
Magic magic farts and magic. Voila! Model.