Social King K. Rool's Kremling Kutthroats: This...Is Our Finest Hour!

[InASnowBoundLand]

Could have been worse. Not too bad from the sounds of it. You should be up throwing characters at low percent as K. Rool anyway.

 

[~The Koopa King~]

Could have been worse. Not too bad from the sounds of it. You should be up throwing characters at low percent as K. Rool anyway.

and here's where i get annoyed...rool got nothing but nerfs and bowser got several buffs

 

[Luigifan18]

Did they nerf K. Rool's recovery?!?

 

[Raxxel]

Did they nerf K. Rool's recovery?!?

They did, in what way I'm not sure. If they nerfed the propeller hitbox, honestly, whatever, a lot of characters got past it anyway. If they nerfed how high the move takes K. Rool, though, that straight up takes away from one of my arguments for K. Rool's strengths. Sigh.

 

[cephalopod17]

I haven't stopped by this thread since end of November due to college, but K. Rool is so fun. Every time I turn on the game I still can't believe he's in. He's great to play as too. Shame about the nerfs though. I don't play competitive, but I didn't think K. Rool needed to be nerfed that much. I do agree with the up special, assuming it's the hitbox and not the actual range. The blunderbuss suction did go on for a while before, but now it lasts for about 3 seconds.

 

[GAINAX]

I just tested him out. I can't see much of a difference if I'm honest.

 

[IMainKingKRool]

I really think it's a nerf to the hitbox itself, and not the recovery's reach. I don't have any way of comparing it to how it was before, but at the very least it still brings him back from below the screen on Battlefield.
Kinda glad they limited the Blunderbuss's inhale tbh, always thought it was kinda dumb he could hold it for just about as long as he wanted considering how powerfully it launches folks.

I think these nerfs are more than fair. He's a bit weaker, but he can still be played close to the same.

 

[Raxxel]

I really think it's a nerf to the hitbox itself, and not the recovery's reach. I don't have any way of comparing it to how it was before, but at the very least it still brings him back from below the screen on Battlefield.
Kinda glad they limited the Blunderbuss's inhale tbh, always thought it was kinda dumb he could hold it for just about as long as he wanted considering how powerfully it launches folks.

I think these nerfs are more than fair. He's a bit weaker, but he can still be played close to the same.

Height wasn't changed?! Oh thank god. Yeah I'll be perfectly alright then. I used the blunderbuss inhale for edgeguarding and getting a quick laugh at the expense of the occasional player on battlefield that runs right into it at the beginning of the match cause they forgot I can drop below platforms while inhaling and think I'm stupid enough to let them attack me from below. The latter won't be affected, former will a little bit, but it just means I have to act quicker now.

 

[Kulty]

So I just read the patch notes for K Rool, and oh man it kinda sucks he got nerfed (but it's kinda expected due to how popular he is), but why nerf him when he wasn't that great to begin with? It could've been worse, but oh well.

 

[Raxxel]

So I just read the patch notes for K Rool, and oh man it kinda sucks he got nerfed (but it's kinda expected due to how popular he is), but why nerf him when he wasn't that great to begin with? It could've been worse, but oh well.

Don't worry, the changes as it turns out are seriously light. QoL more than anything else. K. Rool remains largely the same.

 

[Kulty]

Don't worry, the changes as it turns out are seriously light. QoL more than anything else. K. Rool remains largely the same.

That's good to hear. I'll test these changes tomorrow, but the fact that they reduced the time of D-throw burry and the Propeller hitbox kinda worries me. Less time to get our kill confirms off of d-throw and K Rool's recovery being slightly more exploitable (which already was).

 

[Nothgard]

I think this nerf sucks, for me they just fixed it.
- Up special had large hitbox.
- Down Throw now is good, I dont see nothing drastic.
- They only reduced the hitbox of the cannon

This nerf are nothing. If they increase the ending lag. that's a nerf!

 

[TropicalBreeze]

and here's where i get annoyed...rool got nothing but nerfs and bowser got several buffs

Dude your username is The Koopa King and you're sitting here complaining about Bowser buffs.

As others have said, these nerfs are extremely lenient, the way people were complaining I thought they'd throw the book at him. Our boy got off with a slap on the wrist.

 

[InASnowBoundLand]

Yeah, I think people are overreacting. K. Rool seems to have that effect on people from both directions.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I played a few matches as K. Rool in elite Smash. Seems fine to me. Maybe those blunderbuss sucking from the top of the screen as you fall might have to be timed differently but I'm not really feeling him very different.

 

[SmashKeks]

How are we feeling about K. Rool's nerfs? Personally, I don't think they were too bad.

 

[BravadoMan_13]

Honesty these nerfs seem pretty minor. I ain't too worried about it.

 

[Xzsmmc]

Nerfs aren't a huge deal, but it's more the fact that they were unnecessary. It feels like when someone like K. Rool breaks the heavyweight mold, people lose their minds, hence all the whining about him being OP.

Spoiler

 

[InASnowBoundLand]

The thing is, you have to remember how complex balancing is. The competitive community assumes/wants balancing to be done in response to competitive community observations/tournament results/etc. But I'm sure the balancing team takes into account players of many different skill levels, not just those at the top. And they also have data from online games.

I mean, K. Rool is known as a "noob stomper". That might not mean he is anywhere near an "OP" character among skilled players, but it seems justifiable to me to nerf what they nerfed in this patch if they take into account that "noob stomping" ability. How unskilled characters deal with him matters, too. And to be honest, like everyone has said, this is more of a minor tweak. The character is still largely the same.

 

[~The Koopa King~]

Dude your username is The Koopa King and you're sitting here complaining about Bowser buffs.

As others have said, these nerfs are extremely lenient, the way people were complaining I thought they'd throw the book at him. Our boy got off with a slap on the wrist.

it's just the fact he got straight buffs when he wasn't really in that bad of shape while K.Rool just got straight nerfs when he could have used some kind of improvement

even if it's largely the same the fact better characters got better while some characters who were worse got even worse isn't exactly cool

 

[S_B]

Glad to hear the nerfs were minor but still scratching my head over them happening at all.

Really hope they're not going to be balancing solely from elite smash....

 

[Cruelcumber]

https://twitter.com/KuroganeHammer/status/1090505201012723717

Based on this, bury mechanics in general for Inkling and K. Rool don't work as well at lower percentages, but are now better at higher percents. The hitbox nerf to the Propellerpack is a shame though, although the Blunderbuss's sucking duration being reduced isn't as important since at high level play you shouldn't be holding that move out for long anyway. So yeah K. Rool did get slightly nerfed, which as some here have said may have been inevitable even though it's unjustifiable. It seems like a lot of these buffs and nerfs for characters in 2.0.0 were done based off Elite Smash data as Sakurai said, and it shows. At least Nintendo actually revealed what exact changes happened at least, which is nice so we're not left in the dark anymore.

Still, hopefully Sakuai and his team don't keep listening to those who get pub stomped as much. Granted it seems like Smash Bros would rather nerf pub stompers (aka most superheavies) than actual top tier competitively viable fighters, which I disagree with. So here's to praying that K. Rool actually receives buffs in the future with his frame data being reduced, although if everything is based off Elite Smash, it might be best to unironically play like garbage as K. Rool online. If his average GSP score lowers, then that might show the developers that he needs buffs. A shame that performing well and picking popular characters is being punished, but this might have to be done in order to ensure future buffs.

 

[~The Koopa King~]

Glad to hear the nerfs were minor but still scratching my head over them happening at all.

Really hope they're not going to be balancing solely from elite smash....

it seems like they are....

 

[mynameisBlade]

I suppose a nerf or buff doesn't really matter when you think about it. What does matter is the fact that they will probably never let a heavy character be top TOP tier. Why? I have no clue.

 

[~The Koopa King~]

probably because there's this stigma against heavy characters in fighting games nobody ever really thinks they should be good most of the time and that the best should always be the lighter faster characters

K.Rool is essentially being fat-shamed for being a big boi because heavies are regarded as trash tier and pub stompers

 

[BKupa666]

Yeah most people hoped something like this wouldn't happen but kinda knew in their hearts it would. To me the actual nerfs are less irksome than the principle of Nintendo nerfing a character based on vocal whinging from players who don't want to take the time to learn how to fight a heavyweight they can't immediately or effortlessly dominate using the same old button-mashy FAir/UAir strings. And possibly also interpreting meme YouTube videos of "ZOMG K.ROOL OP!!!" with combos you scarcely ever see in higher-level matches literally.

It's true I don't have the online data in front of me. Maybe I'd be surprised to learn an army of K. Rools actually were overcrowding the top echelon of Elite Smash. But I think it's worth noting that casuals are going to get destroyed by any character if the skill gap is great enough. Heavyweights alone shouldn't suffer from nerfs just because they can destroy those casuals with fewer attacks.

(Also on a meta level I find it delicious that the K. Rool narrative among detractors has evolved from "No one would play him because he'd be just another bottom tier heavy" to "Everyone is playing him because he's OP and braindead and his mains eat glue...needs nerfs now!")

 

[~The Koopa King~]

being A K.Rool Main isn't easy

 

[Raxxel]

If there's anything to take away from this, it's that this may very well be the worst we'll get and it will only be going up from here. Hopefully. I think if they had the intention of really going in on K. Rool, they would have done it here and now.

 

[IMainKingKRool]

Yeah, if they really thought he was a problem they surely would've tweaked a lot more than they did. He's still fun to play and oozing with personality, and I say as long as that remains true they can change him all they want.

 

[G-Guy]

I honestly do not find these changes all too significant...

The one that sticks out a little is the Propeller nerf, although we still lack data about what exactly can hit us now.
Less active time on vacuum and easier evading of being buried are fine, those have been reliable options against casual or novice players, mainly.
Against competetive opponents you'd never dare to hold the vacuum for 5 full seconds or go for early buries. maybe the new d-throw "timer" actually makes linking "pop-off" into an aerial easier. we'll have to see

 

[Honest Slug]

While the nerfs aren't that bad, the fact that he was nerfed at all feels extremely reactionary. It reminds me of when Little Mac got nerfs early on in Smash 4. King K. Rool is a very exploitable character, but instead of people learning his weaknesses, they nerfed an already mid-tier at best character, it's the principle of this "Nerf what I don't understand" mentality that irks me more than the nerfs themselves.

 

[Kulty]

Okay, so I've been messing around with my boys and (HE'S SO FUN). And I haven't noticed that much changes with K Rool. Glad that these nerfs were pretty minor. They shortened the duration of Blunderbuss, which is okay by me since I don't use the move for long anyway. Having d-throw bury nerfed at low percents is also smt I don't really care about, since I mainly use it at high percents for kill confirms. Up-B seems roughly the same, but I can't tell yet how exploitable K Rool's recovery is, but it doesn't seem to be that significant.

Overall, largely similar, and hope we get some minor buffs to his frame data later on the meta.

 

[Cruelcumber]

https://nintendoeverything.com/saku...line-mode-victory-rates-character-usage-more/

Even taking into account 1-on-1 matches outside of Elite Smash, every fighter has a win rate of somewhere between 40 and 54%, and those with a 45%-win rate comprise 90% of the total fighters.


These records are unique in that they’re completely free of bias; from time to time you may see a player-created estimation of each character’s strength, but in reality, those differ pretty greatly from our records. There are characters that tend to be given a lower rank in the grand scheme of things, but truth be told, they sometimes end up coming close to surpassing even the highest ranked characters. This was also the case in previous entries in the series. Ultimately, I wonder if it’s the people who don’t play by the book and can come up with countermeasures to what they face that end up being strong – and thus end up winning.


Something that ended up being a little troubling to me were fighters like King K. Rool. According to a survey on Dwango’s Niconico, the consensus seemed to be that King K. Rool was a strong character – that ended up not being the case. Overall his victory rate was 51.9%, and in Elite Smash it was 48.9%.


The general consensus seems to be that King K. Rool is strong, but I imagine that there are also people that think “no fair!” when they lose to him. Looking at our records, though, I don’t really see any need to adjust him. Though, I think there’ll still be people that’ll continue to be stressed out about fighting him if I don’t mess with him any – so I think I’ll wait to hear what the adjustment team has to say.


There was also a big difference in terms of character usage – the difference between the minimum and maximum was about 20-fold. Overall, the most used character was Cloud, but in terms of Elite Smash it was Ganondorf, whose Elite Smash win-rate was only around 47.9%, which is on the lower end of the rankings.


By the by. Among all the fighters and those of them that have echoes, Peach and Daisy are the most similar. That being said, you’d think that the results for the two characters would mostly be the same… In Elite Smash, though, Peach has a win rate of 54.4% and Daisy has one of 50.9% – how did that even happen!? In terms of usage, though, they’re roughly the same.


That means the difference must come from some kind of calculation error – that’s why making adjustments is such a chore.


In looking at the overall data, though, I think it’s fair to say that no fighter is too overpowered or underpowered – it’s up to the player’s skill. There are also trends in terms of techniques, but even then, you have to consider calculation errors and compatibility with those strategies.


I don’t want to shake things up by trying to balance things – so I think I’d like to take a careful look at things as they are.

Well at least this explains why K. Rool wasn't drastically nerfed, and gives some amount of hope not just for him, but other superheavies like Ganondorf.

 

[~The Koopa King~]

i just wish K.Rool would get some love sooner than later....seems like everyone but us hates him

 

[StormC]

Seems like Sakurai felt he had to nerf K. Rool even in a minor capacity to placate the masses even if he didn’t agree with it. Hopefully this means he’ll do better in future patches.

 

[Handy Man]

At least Genesis 6 will be using version 1.2.0, so excited to represent King K. Rool there! It would be awesome to meet any fellow kutthroats at Genesis too, I plan on giving it my all with the kremling king.

 

[InASnowBoundLand]

Is it just me or has this thread never organized a K. Rool-only tournament? Seems like something we should do at some point.

Also, I was thinking, do you guys think K. Rool's belly armor should have a user interface icon near his damage info like other characters have meters and stuff to show how much "HP" the armor has? I feel like the visual tell is cool but it might not be easy to read for either the player playing K. Rool or players fighting K. Rool.

 

[Raxxel]

https://nintendoeverything.com/saku...line-mode-victory-rates-character-usage-more/



Well at least this explains why K. Rool wasn't drastically nerfed, and gives some amount of hope not just for him, but other superheavies like Ganondorf.

Just as I said. It seems the worst is over, so it's smooth sailing from here on out.

 

[Yellowlord]

Hey there fellow Kutthroats: it's been quite a while since I was last on here. Thought I'd show you guys something I made in relation to K. Rool:

This is only the first part as I have at least one other part planned. Either way, give it a watch if you're interested in montages.

 

[Raxxel]

Hey there fellow Kutthroats: it's been quite a while since I was last on here. Thought I'd show you guys something I made in relation to K. Rool:

This is only the first part as I have at least one other part planned. Either way, give it a watch if you're interested in montages.

That editing was hilarious. "Nice work Mac" and the quickplay Wolf segment killed me.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Hey there fellow Kutthroats: it's been quite a while since I was last on here. Thought I'd show you guys something I made in relation to K. Rool:

This is only the first part as I have at least one other part planned. Either way, give it a watch if you're interested in montages.

The use of that DK64 final battle remix was pretty well-done.