Killing with UTilt, BThrow, or other Underused kill moves

[MythTrainerInfinity]

I'd like to use this thread to help discuss traps and setups we could use to make these moves land easier, thus maximizing our killing potentials.

Utilt
Hit Box on frame: 5
Hit Box out on frame: 15
Completes on frame: 32

How many of you guys think about killing with Lucario's UTilt?

Without DI you kill midweights at around 150ish when you're around 100ish on neutrals. I have found that sometimes people like to air dodge thinking they'll survive only to die.

It kills even sooner when you're at higher Aura of course. For example we all know we survive to a high % against Diddy, a near max Aura fresh Lucario's UTilt will kill a Diddy at 130%ish, probably sooner.

Oh and by the way UTilt's hitbox lasts one frame longer than our FSmash.

Bthrow
Hit Box on frame: 14
Completes on frame: 36

By now I'm use you all know we kill a midweight at around 160%ish with a BThrow at the edge.

Have you guys ever thought about using momentum to your advantage? For example let's say a Snake uses NAir to try to kill you near a ledge. You then decide to grab after you shield the last hit. If you Bthrow right away I believe you can use some of that shield knockback from Snake's NAir to give you a little extra oomph to your Bthrow. Other moves like Falco's BAir, Kirby's BAir, ROB's BAir (if he uses it into you), Snake's BAir, etc.

The tricky part is trying to get these moves to land at that %. It's not a good idea to use UTilt on someone with a non-depleted shield. It is easier to hit someone who is airborne (think about people spamming air kill moves).

So what other ways can you guys think of setting up underused kill moves?

Spoiler

Inb4ShippoandUSmash.

 

[Kitamerby]

Try DI for both of those.

I've never killed a DIing opponent with Brinstar. :x

edit: *Bthrow

 

[ShippoFoxFire]

What about Lucario's Upsm-

Spoiler

Inb4ShippoandUSmash.

oh...

Well yeah, people, start using it! it's charge baits so many things, and it trades with like everything.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

uair on lucy is great for killing at higher %. Like when hes about 140% and his uair is still fresh it'll even kill someone like snake off the top.

I also recommend killing with lucys Nair too. I usually dont combo into it when i kill i just randomly use it when its time to go for a kill and it usually works if lucy and the opponent are high enough % wise

 

[Steam]

I kill with uair a lot. Probably more than aurasphere

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Oh good point, D3. NAir should be relatively easy to land on stages like BF, YI, Lylat, etc. due to landing lag of the platforms. USmash does this too.

SHIPPO or IRC Carios please remind me to test BThrow with DI when I get home.

It is also funny to kill Peach with our BAir (it comes out one frame sooner than her FAir and horizontally outranges her air attacks other than her FAir).

 

[Dark 3nergy]

nair is awesome for killing off to the sides. Unfortunately i really never killed with utilt, because i love to combo with it so much. However what i usually do is if i need a certain hit box to come out sooner i change lucarios direction relative to my opponent and space utilt accordingly. When i played a friendly on shiek once. My opponent was on a platform on BF and i actually utilted him off, he didnt tech the land, i jab, grab, dthrow, uair follow uped him. See utilt is my answer to any and all roll dodge behind me. Cuz if they aint getting the utilt ****, they're getting retreat Bair'ed

So def try utilt under platforms, lucy is kinda short so at places like YI brawl u obvi arent gonna hit someone on that platform if its tilted up too high.

In terms of throws idk about bthrow. It feels like u really gotta have them at like 150% and the throw be fresh for it to work. I still much much rather prefer fthrow cuz you get more KB/aura dmg since its a 'burning' throw.

 

[iDeo]

Ah man, I love utilt for Lucario. It's such a good juggling tool and frankly our fastest move. I will b-throw quite often but that's only if the opponent doesn't DI it properly. I lately have been using u-air more often and now i'm getting into the groove of charging my smash attacks.

 

[D. Disciple]

Death by utilt lawl - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL5S0ZNPNG4 2nd stock, around the end of the vid.

 

[Zucco]

Uair is my "**** im losing and cant land anything else move but I need to kill them!" move

 

[D. Disciple]

Uair is my "You're open!" move AKA I'll break my foot in your ***! move as well.

 

[lordhelmet]

or you could use fsmash

 

[phi1ny3]

uair is soooooo underused.

Like "I swear if you ledgejump and not try the hard way around my grounded edgeguarding, I'm going to read it with uair and you'll die super early lol" kind of underrated.

Or something I know stauffy likes to do, fake a RAR'd Bair and instead pop them with a faster uair.

Plus it seems to outrange a toooon of things vertically.

The only thing that would make it soooooo much better is if it had like nair landing lag.

I've tried looking into bthrow as a late killer, it doesn't work lol. You'll have a better chance with FP, especially if you know a little trick about it.

fthrow is also better for the sake of being fast so you can sometimes catch their DI offguard (especially if you read like a phantasm and immediately do a buffered fthrow them off to the other side, I kill some falcos at like 90% with this lol), plus even then it still has more potential at normal circumstance to outkill bthrow

now what bthrow IS useful for, however, is those walkoff blastzones/really close ones (like the occasional catch them on SV's hanging platform) and throwing them. the initial knockback of the move is great, even though it's growth is meh.

utilt kills happen to me more than I think they would, but it depends on the MU. Personally, I just love it's speed and relative range, so my favorite thing is just plain old spotdodge-> utilt sometimes. You can sometimes get away in some MUs with keeping it fresh then using it as a quick 150%+ killer, but it's a bit infrequent in comparison to some other kill methods.

Nair I love on light characters for killing, but that's about it for using it as a finisher. I've pulled off a fair WoP -> nair near the blastzone, but that's really risky lol.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

^^^^ well the uair hitbox on lucy encompasses his whole body. It'd also be and even better uair if it didnt linger as long frame wise[look at how fast mks, or ZSS's uair frame stuff they start end so fast]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTaboNQmyfg&feature=related

^^^ 0:38 for utilt

^^^^ 1:44 for nair

^^^^^2:08 for uair

basically uair is like fair, but the spheres are much much larger and are compacted ontop of each other

awww yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee check that **** out its like da foot in da *** aura burn

 

[RT]

Uair is my "**** im losing and cant land anything else move but I need to kill them!" move

^This.

10this.

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah, although on the flipside, I've caught plenty of airdodges thanks to that lingering hitbox.

And frankly It'd be sweet if we could like create a total juggle frame trap like Marth of uair -> utilt/DB if it had those low lag frames, or like even Wario's uair.

 

[RT]

uair->nair/dair is probably the only really decent aerial frame trap on someone airdodging...stupid Sakurai!

 

[phi1ny3]

^I concur, this *****.

 

[RT]

And if you somehow misread their DI, you could try AS, but...it might be too slow, lol.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Lucci is pretty **** at punishing airdodges in general, really.

Unless they have multiple jumps... that makes me sad.

 

[RT]

Lucci is pretty **** at punishing airdodges in general, really.

Unless they have multiple jumps... that makes me sad.

Wait that's not-

*remembers MK*

Son of a...

 

[Steam]

uair->nair/dair is probably the only really decent aerial frame trap on someone airdodging...stupid Sakurai!

so true, it screws over RoB really bad when juggling for one since he falls just as slow as we do and he has no options.

also I've gotten last stock high% wins with LolUair through the stage when I'm on the ledge.

 

[Pitbuller26]

so true, it screws over RoB really bad when juggling for one since he falls just as slow as we do and he has no options.

also I've gotten last stock high% wins with LolUair through the stage when I'm on the ledge.

Reminds me of a tourney match where I had to play Flamey. Took one of his stocks by dropping through a platform and uair at the same time. No one expects a drop through uair.

Uair is one of my favorite moves, that and juggling with it at early percents.

 

[Kitamerby]

I spam drop through uair and bair with most characters. Everybody used to watch out for them when I played.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Reminds me of a tourney match where I had to play Flamey. Took one of his stocks by dropping through a platform and uair at the same time. No one expects a drop through uair.

Uair is one of my favorite moves, that and juggling with it at early percents.

Butt KO.

I find it hilarious that we can kill with Lucario's butt. He needs to stop eating too much chocolate :<

Too bad we can only like autocancel with BAir.

 

[Steam]

Butt KO.

I find it hawt that we can kill with Lucario's butt. He needs to stop eating too much chocolate :<

Too bad we can only like autocancel with BAir.

<_<

>_>

<_<

peach's *** is better than our ***

 

[culexus・wau]

Anything with multiple jumps and is not MK I hate.


trying to hit those MFers on landing sucks

Lucario's dash attack shoulda been a but rump that gatlings into upsmash.

for serious

 

[Aurasmash14]

Uair near the ledge.

its just awesome.

also the drop through platform and Uair thing was something i used to do a lot.

then they would shield and i would be FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF.

drop through platform and Nair is kinda cool though.


Utilt kills kinda late and i have hardly ever killed someone with it. but its speed makes up for it.

as for Bthrow. No. Just no. i hate Bthrow. the only time i use it is Bthrow>AS (opponent jumps over it with second jump.) Fair>nair stuff.

 

[iDeo]

Man d-smash is so useful, I'm surprised not a lot Lucarios try to apply it. I was experimenting with it yesterday to see in wat situations it could be used in and it was workin' like a charm.

 

[Steam]

I think Dsmash is lucarios 2nd least useful move after DT =/

I never use it, ever.

 

[Kitamerby]

Dsmash is cool when Fsmash is too stale to kill anything.

 

[culexus・wau]

Dsmash-

When you're too lazy to guess which way to forward smash.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

DSmash eliminates guessing where a Marth will land after he whiffs a Dolphin Slash.

 

[culexus・wau]

or you could just

you know

upsmash marth.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

But DSmash does more damage :<

 

[culexus・wau]

Upsmash will is likely to kill him and puts marth above you.

if its midpercent maybe.

if it was low % I would just go for a grab.

if we're both +100% I would upsmash though unless I was close to the edge.

maybe even still upsmash if I think he'll try to grab the ledge.

 

[Aurasmash14]

Man d-smash is so useful, I'm surprised not a lot Lucarios try to apply it. I was experimenting with it yesterday to see in wat situations it could be used in and it was workin' like a charm.

man Dsmash is lame.

it may be quick, but it has bad range and it isnt safe. and Uptilt makes a better roll punisher imo.

 

[Zucco]

lol I actually meant uptilt in my first post. I was in school and kinda typed that pretty fast.

 

[F1ZZ]

Utilt > Dsmash.

Dtilt > Dsmash.

Get the point?

 

[D. Disciple]

Nah because dsmash actually has it's uses for a kill better than those two moves you just mentioned.