Dojo
Smash Champion
Most dont tend to know what to do. Just trying to pick up the free win. Annoys the **** outta me. I can only imagine how yall feel. >.>
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Killing with the young boy.
- Thread starter Santi
- Start date
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Santi
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2006
- Messages
- 1,931
Which will be when?
I need to stop saving so many combo vids, I have them for:
TL[yours], Pit, Mario, Marth, Diddy, Kirby, I think one of Link somewhere, and about 10 other characters or something.
Now I'm just messing around with eveyrbody, I probably use like half the other characters besides TL.=P
Trifroze
all is cheese, all is jank
Just noticed that this works as a mind game kill move sometimes:
When your opponent isn't close enough for you to hit him, do the first part of fsmash. Then do a new fsmash but this time the whole thing. Pretty often the opponent starts running at you and doesn't expect another one.
When your opponent isn't close enough for you to hit him, do the first part of fsmash. Then do a new fsmash but this time the whole thing. Pretty often the opponent starts running at you and doesn't expect another one.
popsofctown
Smash Champion
could you rank these kill methods? perhaps, from least situational to most situational. I don't know, something to direct my practice and study. Also, is there some characters that are better to rack until uptilt kills, and others that should be smacked with a smash?
AkaMaruChan
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2007
- Messages
- 44
I think it's safe to assume that Tink's KO range is at 130%-150% or so were things become killable for him. I've tried with all sorts of moves to kill with him, I think what we need to discuss is how to rack up some safe or clever damage to mix up our game so we can get our enemies to that state where we can kill.
Sosuke
Smash Obsessed
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2007
- Messages
- 25,073
- Switch FC
- 8132-9932-4710
We'll make another thread about that.
"Damage rack-up methods" or something.
Maybe I'll do it tomorrow. The two threads could go hand-in-hand.
zaf
Smash Lord
Okie doke, so here is a quick update on Smoke screening. ( aka bomb dropping to conceal yourself)
When you are stationary, there are 3 possible ways of ss-ing.
1- You sh and drop with Z. works fine
2- You sh and drop with a. To soon of a drop makes the frames with damage hit you during your sh.
3- You sh and drop with a at the peak of your sh, works like z.
Now you can use option 3, but it is more risky since it needs to be timed. I would just stick to using z drops for the ss-ing.
When you are re-treating you can comb drop as well. For min game purposes. The same 3 options apply.
Now if you are wondering why the z drop is better then using the a button it is because:
When you sh and immediately shoot the bomb down, the hitbox is still big enough at the time to hit you. it happens all to fast. IF you jump and drop with z, the bomb drops a bit slower and it allows you to land right in the smoke. Thus it is much safer.
When you are stationary, there are 3 possible ways of ss-ing.
1- You sh and drop with Z. works fine
2- You sh and drop with a. To soon of a drop makes the frames with damage hit you during your sh.
3- You sh and drop with a at the peak of your sh, works like z.
Now you can use option 3, but it is more risky since it needs to be timed. I would just stick to using z drops for the ss-ing.
When you are re-treating you can comb drop as well. For min game purposes. The same 3 options apply.
Now if you are wondering why the z drop is better then using the a button it is because:
When you sh and immediately shoot the bomb down, the hitbox is still big enough at the time to hit you. it happens all to fast. IF you jump and drop with z, the bomb drops a bit slower and it allows you to land right in the smoke. Thus it is much safer.
QUIVO
Smash Master
If you guys want to kill earlier, don't spam your kill moves. I see too many TL's doing this. Don't forget about the whole move decay thing. Your move will never be as strong until you get a new stock.
What I do is spam my combo/damage dealing moves until killing percents and then finish them off with a good smash at its peak damage.
Combo/ damage dealing moves - Nair, bair, dair, utilt, ftilt, dtilt, zair, projectiles.
Killing moves - Usmash, Fsmash, Fair.
In between - Dsmash, Uair, Nair, Dair (of course risky and rarely ever used)
No joke, against people that spam their kill moves... I live up until 160-200% with good DI.
Also, you have to follow percents and get a rough idea of what percents you can use certain moves.
I.E. Lower percents for combos, and then mid percents for projectiles and hit and run tactics.
What I do is spam my combo/damage dealing moves until killing percents and then finish them off with a good smash at its peak damage.
Combo/ damage dealing moves - Nair, bair, dair, utilt, ftilt, dtilt, zair, projectiles.
Killing moves - Usmash, Fsmash, Fair.
In between - Dsmash, Uair, Nair, Dair (of course risky and rarely ever used)
No joke, against people that spam their kill moves... I live up until 160-200% with good DI.
Also, you have to follow percents and get a rough idea of what percents you can use certain moves.
I.E. Lower percents for combos, and then mid percents for projectiles and hit and run tactics.
vanderzant
Smash Journeyman
Just a question, but when you use your Usmash/Fair, does the move decay even if the attack misses? Or will it still be fresh until you actually connect with your opponent?
It's probably already been mentioned, but I find I get alot of my kills when my opponent is forced to land on the stage from the air. A well timed hyphen smash is the obvious choice, but if you can predict an air dodge, it is possible to can space a delayed Fsmash so that the second hit connects as they lose their invincibility frames.
Fsmash also can work well when your opponent trys to DI to the ledge. So as a combo, utilt -> walk -> delayed Fsmash.
It's probably already been mentioned, but I find I get alot of my kills when my opponent is forced to land on the stage from the air. A well timed hyphen smash is the obvious choice, but if you can predict an air dodge, it is possible to can space a delayed Fsmash so that the second hit connects as they lose their invincibility frames.
Fsmash also can work well when your opponent trys to DI to the ledge. So as a combo, utilt -> walk -> delayed Fsmash.
QUIVO
Smash Master
No, it only decays if you hit something with a hitbox (or something like that?).
For example, you can just dtilt the stones on Castle siege or the pillars on luigi's mansion to refresh your other moves.
I find punishing airdodges from above with fsmash can work well if you space well. I usually connect it against Snake's.
For example, you can just dtilt the stones on Castle siege or the pillars on luigi's mansion to refresh your other moves.
I find punishing airdodges from above with fsmash can work well if you space well. I usually connect it against Snake's.
ImpactAR
Smash Ace
Alright, guys after some thinking and talking to Santi a bit I decide to try to figure out some good set ups to kill with this kid. I think I got something for you fellow TL mains. After some thinking and testing with set ups I finally got something!
Run Up, Jump, Space Bomb Throw Down Right in Front of Your Opponent, Cross Over During Jump, Fair
OR
Run Up, Jump, Space Bomb Throw Down Right in Front of Your Opponent, Cross Over During Jump, Uair
You can also combo with the Dair, but I'm working with what I think is more practical.
For the sake of making things simple, I'm call going to call the "space bomb throw down" SBTD.
Trial and Error
I test the SBTD on a few characters in Training Mode. So these percentages are assuming the following.
Fair Version Kills Pit at 122%
Uair Version Kills Pit at 128%
Fair Version Kills Snake at 138%
Uair Version Kills Snake at 124%
Fair Version Kills MK at 116%
Uair Version Kills MK at 109%
** Note that this is the percentage that the character is at before any damage from the set up.
Training With an Attacking Computer
I trained with the computer to see how well this trick works. Unfortunately the computer is very active so it's hard to work with mind games with it. For example, I can't run up and SBTD because the computer would almost always jump forward and attack or walk back all of a sudden. A human player would consider the factor that you might throw the bomb forward or do something tricky so the mind games of this test for offense is nonexistent.
Defensively, you can learn to jump out of your shield after shielding an attack and SBTD do an aerial. Works fairly well. Again the computer does some stuff I doubt a human player would do to mess this tactic up.
Bair and Nair works well with at low percentages. Uair is very hard to land while Fair is much more dependable and effective.
Again this is the computer so there is no mind games in this test.
What to hear some good news about this? Here's some!
When Should You Use Fair to Uair?
It's pretty obvious that Uair is the more reliable kill move. It kills at lower percents and the ceiling is a constant factor after all. However, it's only covers a small area and very hard to land with all the movements and DI.
Fair, however, is more reliable since it has a wider range of attack. Also Fair is a bit safer because unlike the Uair you can finish the animation in a jump so you can jump again for safety when you see that the bomb was blocked. Though everything will happen very fast so you must have a keen eye.
Things to Learn and Consider
Learn the timing of when to throw the bomb downwards. If you do SBTD during a short hop too soon you're actually going to hit yourself with the peak of the explosion. You really want to wait a split second after your jump or perhaps it's easier to say wait until you're at a the "short hop peak" before you throw it down.
Learn the range of the bomb's explosion. This set up requires you to hit your opponent with the "front" side of the bomb's explosion so that your opponent's DI has minimal effect on how where they fly and push them into the cross over, aerial. If your throw too close to your opponent, the explosion will trigger and hit you when you try to cross over.
I found that since this is more of a guess and looking for an opportunity set up. Using a full jump is typically better than a short hop.
Final Words
I actually found this very recently so I can't say how well this will apply in actual human matches yet. I'll be playing my friend a lot tomorrow and let you guys know how well/often this set up works. I'll also probably add some other tactics to help make this set up more unpredicable.
Run Up, Jump, Space Bomb Throw Down Right in Front of Your Opponent, Cross Over During Jump, Fair
OR
Run Up, Jump, Space Bomb Throw Down Right in Front of Your Opponent, Cross Over During Jump, Uair
You can also combo with the Dair, but I'm working with what I think is more practical.
For the sake of making things simple, I'm call going to call the "space bomb throw down" SBTD.
Trial and Error
I test the SBTD on a few characters in Training Mode. So these percentages are assuming the following.
- Opponent is right in the center of Final Destination.
- Undiminished moves.
- Improper DI on the opponent's part.
Fair Version Kills Pit at 122%
Uair Version Kills Pit at 128%
Fair Version Kills Snake at 138%
Uair Version Kills Snake at 124%
Fair Version Kills MK at 116%
Uair Version Kills MK at 109%
** Note that this is the percentage that the character is at before any damage from the set up.
Training With an Attacking Computer
I trained with the computer to see how well this trick works. Unfortunately the computer is very active so it's hard to work with mind games with it. For example, I can't run up and SBTD because the computer would almost always jump forward and attack or walk back all of a sudden. A human player would consider the factor that you might throw the bomb forward or do something tricky so the mind games of this test for offense is nonexistent.
Defensively, you can learn to jump out of your shield after shielding an attack and SBTD do an aerial. Works fairly well. Again the computer does some stuff I doubt a human player would do to mess this tactic up.
Bair and Nair works well with at low percentages. Uair is very hard to land while Fair is much more dependable and effective.
Again this is the computer so there is no mind games in this test.
What to hear some good news about this? Here's some!
- It's a combo. That's right if you connect with the bomb it guarantees that the Fair or Uair will not be escaped!
- The timing on it is actually just slightly forgiving. When I say that I mean you have a small time frame to recognize and see if your bomb connected before you decide to execute the Fair or Uair. It happens very fast, though.
When Should You Use Fair to Uair?
It's pretty obvious that Uair is the more reliable kill move. It kills at lower percents and the ceiling is a constant factor after all. However, it's only covers a small area and very hard to land with all the movements and DI.
Fair, however, is more reliable since it has a wider range of attack. Also Fair is a bit safer because unlike the Uair you can finish the animation in a jump so you can jump again for safety when you see that the bomb was blocked. Though everything will happen very fast so you must have a keen eye.
Things to Learn and Consider
Learn the timing of when to throw the bomb downwards. If you do SBTD during a short hop too soon you're actually going to hit yourself with the peak of the explosion. You really want to wait a split second after your jump or perhaps it's easier to say wait until you're at a the "short hop peak" before you throw it down.
Learn the range of the bomb's explosion. This set up requires you to hit your opponent with the "front" side of the bomb's explosion so that your opponent's DI has minimal effect on how where they fly and push them into the cross over, aerial. If your throw too close to your opponent, the explosion will trigger and hit you when you try to cross over.
I found that since this is more of a guess and looking for an opportunity set up. Using a full jump is typically better than a short hop.
Final Words
I actually found this very recently so I can't say how well this will apply in actual human matches yet. I'll be playing my friend a lot tomorrow and let you guys know how well/often this set up works. I'll also probably add some other tactics to help make this set up more unpredicable.
UnderWing
Smash Apprentice
That's an interesting idea (by SBTD I'm guessing you mean "dropping" it, like with the grab button mid-air, as that would give you enough time to not get hit by the blast and also set yourself in the right position on the opposite (and slightly elevated) side of them), but I'm not sure I agree on it's usefulness.
As you said, you had trouble doing it on computers who reacted -- I daresay that a human player will do more than just mess up your positioning. If a TL came at me like you're describing (SH in front of me with a bomb) I would, at the very least (if I were confused) put up my shield -- as soon as TL's in the air, there's *nothing* he can do to punish a shield (assuming it's full enough to not be "poked", but that's not important here). First prediction for many people would be a DAir, anyway, so shielding is the best choice (given the unknown). And if you played with this in practice, you didn't get a human's DI ability to factor in -- assuming they are hit, they may have been already trying to dash at you, or attack -- this is going to misplace their initial position, and will cause DI when they're in the air. A good opponent, in this situation, is going to do one better than that -- SDI the bomb blast away from you, to prevent the setup (or, in their mind, *any* setup).
If you're linking a bomb explosion knockback to a move as a true combo, then you're talking about (damage dependent) an altitude of maybe a character's height -- positioning this on a live player's going to be especially tricky, as they could run into the bomb, and their damage will also be variable. After that (and, considering damage, potentially earlier than that) the first reaction of the airborne opponent is going to be an airdodge -- it's the fastest action when you're knocked back, and considering the close proximity with TL, it's a good safety.
All of this presents a scenario that's simply too uncontrolled to reliably get away with against an opponent who's trying to dodge your attacks, and get in their own. The idea isn't entirely invalid -- it's a great thing to try to predict your opponent's position directly after getting hit with your bomb, but the timeframe you have to work with isn't that much more than, say, that presented by a hit from a boomerang coming back. If you can predict it, and have a UAir or FAir ready for them, that's good -- it's something I try to do when I'm spacing against somebody: I always try to position a boomerang behind them, and time one of my SH approaches to match up.
--UnderWing
PS: Another element that I didn't mention is the opponent's character size... I've hit D3's with up-thrown bombs coming back down, or boomerangs, and punished their ever-so-slight vertical knockback with a SH FF UAir. I think the best way to think about it is less as a setup, and more as a positioning situation to watch for and take advantage of -- if you find yourself in a situation where a bomb, boomerang, thrown item (or maybe arrow, somehow) will stun the opponent long enough for you (from your current position) to get a heavy punish on them, there's no reason you shouldn't take it. Experimenting with *all* of Toon Link's projectiles and attacks will result in you finding adaptable mini-combos like this, but rather than going into a situation where you think to yourself "I'm going to SH, drop this bomb, get on the other side of it and UAir when it explodes", maybe try thinking "I'm going to jump, drop this bomb, and... I'll see what happens." Thinking this way will make your style less rehearsed, and will let you react properly when the initial plan fails -- which it will.
Often.
Fluid, dynamic, and natural style is the real power of a good Toon Link player -- when one projectile fails, there should already be two more in the air, maybe a chain, and a bomb, all waiting to make up for it. The fast moves, good air control, and multitude of projectiles all make Toon Link one of the most adaptable, and unpredictable characters in the game -- keep it that way, and just see where the game takes you.
And practice.
Often.
--UnderWing (still)
As you said, you had trouble doing it on computers who reacted -- I daresay that a human player will do more than just mess up your positioning. If a TL came at me like you're describing (SH in front of me with a bomb) I would, at the very least (if I were confused) put up my shield -- as soon as TL's in the air, there's *nothing* he can do to punish a shield (assuming it's full enough to not be "poked", but that's not important here). First prediction for many people would be a DAir, anyway, so shielding is the best choice (given the unknown). And if you played with this in practice, you didn't get a human's DI ability to factor in -- assuming they are hit, they may have been already trying to dash at you, or attack -- this is going to misplace their initial position, and will cause DI when they're in the air. A good opponent, in this situation, is going to do one better than that -- SDI the bomb blast away from you, to prevent the setup (or, in their mind, *any* setup).
If you're linking a bomb explosion knockback to a move as a true combo, then you're talking about (damage dependent) an altitude of maybe a character's height -- positioning this on a live player's going to be especially tricky, as they could run into the bomb, and their damage will also be variable. After that (and, considering damage, potentially earlier than that) the first reaction of the airborne opponent is going to be an airdodge -- it's the fastest action when you're knocked back, and considering the close proximity with TL, it's a good safety.
All of this presents a scenario that's simply too uncontrolled to reliably get away with against an opponent who's trying to dodge your attacks, and get in their own. The idea isn't entirely invalid -- it's a great thing to try to predict your opponent's position directly after getting hit with your bomb, but the timeframe you have to work with isn't that much more than, say, that presented by a hit from a boomerang coming back. If you can predict it, and have a UAir or FAir ready for them, that's good -- it's something I try to do when I'm spacing against somebody: I always try to position a boomerang behind them, and time one of my SH approaches to match up.
--UnderWing
PS: Another element that I didn't mention is the opponent's character size... I've hit D3's with up-thrown bombs coming back down, or boomerangs, and punished their ever-so-slight vertical knockback with a SH FF UAir. I think the best way to think about it is less as a setup, and more as a positioning situation to watch for and take advantage of -- if you find yourself in a situation where a bomb, boomerang, thrown item (or maybe arrow, somehow) will stun the opponent long enough for you (from your current position) to get a heavy punish on them, there's no reason you shouldn't take it. Experimenting with *all* of Toon Link's projectiles and attacks will result in you finding adaptable mini-combos like this, but rather than going into a situation where you think to yourself "I'm going to SH, drop this bomb, get on the other side of it and UAir when it explodes", maybe try thinking "I'm going to jump, drop this bomb, and... I'll see what happens." Thinking this way will make your style less rehearsed, and will let you react properly when the initial plan fails -- which it will.
Often.
Fluid, dynamic, and natural style is the real power of a good Toon Link player -- when one projectile fails, there should already be two more in the air, maybe a chain, and a bomb, all waiting to make up for it. The fast moves, good air control, and multitude of projectiles all make Toon Link one of the most adaptable, and unpredictable characters in the game -- keep it that way, and just see where the game takes you.
And practice.
Often.
--UnderWing (still)
QUIVO
Smash Master
ImpactAR
Smash Ace
Underwing,
The real problem with the CPU is that it's programed to react to what you're inputting. Depending how close I am and when I jump the computer would jump forward with an attack or would just walk back out of range. A human player would consider all the options you have. I could of easily jump back can continue spamming, stop threw the bomb forward and follow with an aerial, or Zair. There is also the chance that a human player would mistime a dodge or mistimed a tapped power shield.
Even in the case that the opponent shields and the set up fails, you will be the air and have the time to think of another set up. What make this works is mind games.
Defensively it seems to work rather well. Full jumping and throwing the bomb straight down does help lead to a Fair.
I'm not going to play a human player until later today so I'll tell you how well it goes when I'm going for an offensive kill.
Quivo,
You do have an example of what I'm talking about. Though, I am leaning more toward throwing it down rather than bomb dropping. It just seems easier and it happens very fast.
The real problem with the CPU is that it's programed to react to what you're inputting. Depending how close I am and when I jump the computer would jump forward with an attack or would just walk back out of range. A human player would consider all the options you have. I could of easily jump back can continue spamming, stop threw the bomb forward and follow with an aerial, or Zair. There is also the chance that a human player would mistime a dodge or mistimed a tapped power shield.
Even in the case that the opponent shields and the set up fails, you will be the air and have the time to think of another set up. What make this works is mind games.
Defensively it seems to work rather well. Full jumping and throwing the bomb straight down does help lead to a Fair.
I'm not going to play a human player until later today so I'll tell you how well it goes when I'm going for an offensive kill.
Quivo,
You do have an example of what I'm talking about. Though, I am leaning more toward throwing it down rather than bomb dropping. It just seems easier and it happens very fast.
ImpactAR
Smash Ace
I'd like to say feel free to debate on whether you think this would work or not. It'll help give me some ideas on what situations is best suited for this and perhaps situations where this is very effective .
Right now I'm just working with theory. The reason I'm thinking this is viable is because I'm assuming the average competitive TL player will have mix up in their play style.
Right now I'm just working with theory. The reason I'm thinking this is viable is because I'm assuming the average competitive TL player will have mix up in their play style.
ImpactAR
Smash Ace
Alright, guys. Unfortunately, after playing with my friend for a while it's pretty clear that the tactic is impractically. I didn't tell him of this set up to see how it works as a surprise tactic and I was only able to land this once. Underwing is right, a competitive human player would be too much on the move for this set up to work.
TL needs a different set up for kills.
Someone find something!
TL needs a different set up for kills.
Someone find something!
QUIVO
Smash Master
Yea, I've used the downthrow bomb to uair many times before. Recently though, people have been smarter about DI'ing it and or avoiding the initial hit.
It definitely works. For awhile, I was getting a lot of kills with it.. but people learn.
Also this is an older video and I suck in it, but I throw a bomb down and hit him with a far for the kill.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3O8zEpIHMs
It happens at 4:17
It definitely works. For awhile, I was getting a lot of kills with it.. but people learn.
Also this is an older video and I suck in it, but I throw a bomb down and hit him with a far for the kill.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3O8zEpIHMs
It happens at 4:17
ImpactAR
Smash Ace
Alright, here's an idea.
Usually when you get your opponent into the air and go for a juggle they usually would instinctively air dodge to the ground and try to land to safety. Ideally you'll be fast enough to get to them (and TL is) and follow up with a quick move. Unfortunately this isn't Melee and with Brawl's beefed up defense system your opponent usually would be able to air dodge to the ground and block upon landing.
I notice when I play as Marth (I'm pretty good with Marth : /) that when I get my opponent into the air and they land I have three options: grab, Forward B (multi-hit move), or time a smash before the make it to the ground. Most of my kills as Marth comes from well timed Fsmash and prediction against my friend when he tries to air dodge and land on the ground. Marth's Fsmash has a forward arc and has a little more linger so it's easier to land than TL's Usmash (or even Dsmash) which comes out so quick that usually you'll get dodge when your opponent air dodge to the ground. Utilt, however, is a little more lingering so easier to land. However, the problem is you can't run up and Utilt ASAP because of the control system will cause you'll automatically Usmash.
So I have a theory. TL can easily get the opponent into the air. Agreed? So when you get your opponent into the air and see them about to land, how about running up and short hop, hookshot (close), lag cancel, Utilt. Hookshot will act as a combo starter / semi-safeguard against counter attacks and ideally, whether your opponent dodges or not the Utilt will still connect.
Now, this set up also open up ideas for TL to short hop, hookshot and jab, Ftilt, quickly SH Bair or Nair, or even grab at low percentages or just add some damage against opponent who likes to air dodge and safely land.
Again, this is all theory. I'll try to test this myself when I can, but I encourage all you other TL players to help test this too.
Usually when you get your opponent into the air and go for a juggle they usually would instinctively air dodge to the ground and try to land to safety. Ideally you'll be fast enough to get to them (and TL is) and follow up with a quick move. Unfortunately this isn't Melee and with Brawl's beefed up defense system your opponent usually would be able to air dodge to the ground and block upon landing.
I notice when I play as Marth (I'm pretty good with Marth : /) that when I get my opponent into the air and they land I have three options: grab, Forward B (multi-hit move), or time a smash before the make it to the ground. Most of my kills as Marth comes from well timed Fsmash and prediction against my friend when he tries to air dodge and land on the ground. Marth's Fsmash has a forward arc and has a little more linger so it's easier to land than TL's Usmash (or even Dsmash) which comes out so quick that usually you'll get dodge when your opponent air dodge to the ground. Utilt, however, is a little more lingering so easier to land. However, the problem is you can't run up and Utilt ASAP because of the control system will cause you'll automatically Usmash.
So I have a theory. TL can easily get the opponent into the air. Agreed? So when you get your opponent into the air and see them about to land, how about running up and short hop, hookshot (close), lag cancel, Utilt. Hookshot will act as a combo starter / semi-safeguard against counter attacks and ideally, whether your opponent dodges or not the Utilt will still connect.
Now, this set up also open up ideas for TL to short hop, hookshot and jab, Ftilt, quickly SH Bair or Nair, or even grab at low percentages or just add some damage against opponent who likes to air dodge and safely land.
Again, this is all theory. I'll try to test this myself when I can, but I encourage all you other TL players to help test this too.
QUIVO
Smash Master
How could Zair > Utilt work?
If they're at a high enough percent to die, the zair will knock them too far away for you to utilt. You can't run to utilt and walking would be too slow I'd imagine.
If they're at a high enough percent to die, the zair will knock them too far away for you to utilt. You can't run to utilt and walking would be too slow I'd imagine.
ImpactAR
Smash Ace
Quivo, you're right it doesn't combo. The real idea I'm trying to get at most players will try to air dodge and hit the ground and shield or what not when he/she is thinking you're going to do an Usmash to KO. I'm trying to say is use the hookshot to bait the air dodge and help you time the Utilt better. If they don't air dodge for whatever reason, probably because they are trying to attack, then hookshot would act as a counter attack. If they do dodge than the Utilt has a good chance of landing. One situation would be if your opponent is hanging on the edge and is planning to jump up, air dodge, and land.
Now back to ideas of killing, I was messing around in training and I thought of set up for the SBTD I mention earlier in this thread. Now most you TL mainers would know by now that it seems TL isn't fast enough to hookshot and do a running Usmash for a KO. Go figure. But you can hookshot and throw a bomb and it'll be a combo or if dodge it'll go behind your opponent and explode and connect anyways. Now feeding of this idea, after a hookshot connects you can run up and do a SBTD and a Fair or Uair. I think this could be dodge or the opponent may have time to land and block but it adds come option and is the only practically way I found to apply the SBTD.
Now back to the plain hookshot and running Usmash set up. I've went in training with the CPU and messed with it a bit. So clearly if you land a hookshot and immediately hyphen smash the CPU will dodge and the Usmash is so quick that it'll pass through. So instead of hyphen smashing, I ran and smashed up aiming to hit where the feet would land. The CPU will fall for this every time. Now the question is when it's a human playing holding block will he have time to land and block or is there actually a very small time frame where there is actually an opening?
On Friday I'll set down with a friend of mine and do better testing on these set ups.
Now back to ideas of killing, I was messing around in training and I thought of set up for the SBTD I mention earlier in this thread. Now most you TL mainers would know by now that it seems TL isn't fast enough to hookshot and do a running Usmash for a KO. Go figure. But you can hookshot and throw a bomb and it'll be a combo or if dodge it'll go behind your opponent and explode and connect anyways. Now feeding of this idea, after a hookshot connects you can run up and do a SBTD and a Fair or Uair. I think this could be dodge or the opponent may have time to land and block but it adds come option and is the only practically way I found to apply the SBTD.
Now back to the plain hookshot and running Usmash set up. I've went in training with the CPU and messed with it a bit. So clearly if you land a hookshot and immediately hyphen smash the CPU will dodge and the Usmash is so quick that it'll pass through. So instead of hyphen smashing, I ran and smashed up aiming to hit where the feet would land. The CPU will fall for this every time. Now the question is when it's a human playing holding block will he have time to land and block or is there actually a very small time frame where there is actually an opening?
On Friday I'll set down with a friend of mine and do better testing on these set ups.
This all sounds very interesting.
Jellyfishn
Smash Journeyman
Wow, I think I just started tearing up.... inspirational explanation, Underwing.
Lobos
Smash Master
QUIVO
Smash Master
Yea, zair > usmash can work.
I think it might work best if you hit them while they are in the air with the zair.
I think it might work best if you hit them while they are in the air with the zair.
ImpactAR
Smash Ace
Lobos,
A Zair to Usmash is not a guaranteed hit. A decent player would predict the hyphen smash and air dodge. Training with the CPU, the CPU will automatically dodge ASAP.
The problems I encountered when playing my friends is there would either air dodge after the Zair or somehow land in time to block.
The reason I'm using the CPU for training is just to test some theories for right now. I'm not sparring with the CPU.
The Zair to Running Usmash tends to be miss because in the mind set of the TL player is he needs to be quick while the defending opponent mind set is he needs to dodge. This create a situation where the Usmash will get dodge. But I am trying to see if you anticipate the dodge and try to time the Usmash a little later than hyphen smashing does your opponent really have the time to land and shield.
Quivo,
You idea of hitting them with the Zair in the air does work with what I'm trying to test. Again, I test CPU to see their reaction time, not so much their reaction. When I hit CPU when it is in the air it has time and does connect an attack on me. So the question is will a human do the same (probably depends on the player) or does he have enough time to jump assuming he has a second jump left.
Again these are just theories. I'll test them a real player on Friday.
A Zair to Usmash is not a guaranteed hit. A decent player would predict the hyphen smash and air dodge. Training with the CPU, the CPU will automatically dodge ASAP.
The problems I encountered when playing my friends is there would either air dodge after the Zair or somehow land in time to block.
The reason I'm using the CPU for training is just to test some theories for right now. I'm not sparring with the CPU.
The Zair to Running Usmash tends to be miss because in the mind set of the TL player is he needs to be quick while the defending opponent mind set is he needs to dodge. This create a situation where the Usmash will get dodge. But I am trying to see if you anticipate the dodge and try to time the Usmash a little later than hyphen smashing does your opponent really have the time to land and shield.
Quivo,
You idea of hitting them with the Zair in the air does work with what I'm trying to test. Again, I test CPU to see their reaction time, not so much their reaction. When I hit CPU when it is in the air it has time and does connect an attack on me. So the question is will a human do the same (probably depends on the player) or does he have enough time to jump assuming he has a second jump left.
Again these are just theories. I'll test them a real player on Friday.
QUIVO
Smash Master
The thing is... I have done it to real players.... Not everyone always expects it. Yea, they're not guaranteed hits, but you should be trying all of your different methods of killing.
Same with bombthrow down > uair/fair. They all work, you just have to catch them off guard.
I've been using both of these on good and bad players. They work. You just can't be so direct, and you have to pressure them into making mistakes in order to pull them off.
Also, I've been thinking about using the boomerang (on the way back) more to stun them enough to hit them with a hyphen smash. I usually don't test it cause I always forget, but I have a feeling it could work. It'd just be tricky to get the spacing and such down.
EDIT: CPU is so predictable too lol. If I knew someone would airdodge as soon as they got hit (like lvl 9 cpu's do) I could just wait for the usmash, but I know where you're getting at with it.
Same with bombthrow down > uair/fair. They all work, you just have to catch them off guard.
I've been using both of these on good and bad players. They work. You just can't be so direct, and you have to pressure them into making mistakes in order to pull them off.
Also, I've been thinking about using the boomerang (on the way back) more to stun them enough to hit them with a hyphen smash. I usually don't test it cause I always forget, but I have a feeling it could work. It'd just be tricky to get the spacing and such down.
EDIT: CPU is so predictable too lol. If I knew someone would airdodge as soon as they got hit (like lvl 9 cpu's do) I could just wait for the usmash, but I know where you're getting at with it.
Lobos
Smash Master
Nothing is a guaranteed hit, the zair to hyphen smash can be blocked/air dodge but if you know your spacing and timing well enough then chances are regardless of who you are playing it will hit. I would know since I am one of the first TL mains to use it in my gameplay. 
Also the character you do it against does effect the timing.
Also the character you do it against does effect the timing.
I've had it since August 11th so don't complain. <_<
Also, yes, if they don't DI correctly, a lot of follow-ups from Zair can be done. However, the move has very low stun, so it's best to follow up with a simple aerial or a bomb which stuns then longer and allows for a larger follow-up option.
If you could L-cancel Zairs in Melee, I guess Link and Samus would've been pretty leet, no?
Also, yes, if they don't DI correctly, a lot of follow-ups from Zair can be done. However, the move has very low stun, so it's best to follow up with a simple aerial or a bomb which stuns then longer and allows for a larger follow-up option.
If you could L-cancel Zairs in Melee, I guess Link and Samus would've been pretty leet, no?
Ørion
Smash Ace
Lol is this what you do during school?
school is boring.
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