Keyboard legality in console tourneys (POLL)..

[bloodpeach]

Does it only map keys to buttons and keys to maximal movements of the stick in cardinal directions

Yes.

 

[clubbadubba]

With regard to macros in tournament:

I played amida in the tournament, and before I get any further let me say I AM IN NO WAY SUGGESTING THAT HE USED MACROS IN THE SLIGHTEST. However, he played with a gamecube controller that went directly into the n64. When he plugged it in he had to reset the console, listen real close to a wire connection, and I guess when he heard something had to input some buttons. I have absolutely no clue what he was doing or what he was setting up. If he had wanted to he could have been mapping his buttons to macros and I would've been none the wiser. As far as I know we currently have no protection for things like this.

At some point I wonder if TO's are going to have to be slightly more diligent about checking alternate controllers like this to make sure they comply with the rules. I'd bet that no one really checked out the keyboard adapters for legality as is. Not that the TO's have time to spare anyway.

To those mentioning about people being able to see their opponents inputs... I played a whole game vs Fireblaster in the crew battle during which Stranded pretended to be the one playing and Fireblaster was none the wiser despite my playstyle being waaaaaaaay different than Stranded's and the fact that I had played the matchup with him many times the day before so he knew my style (which is far more noticeable than a macro would be imo). Not as easy as it sounds to look at an opponents controller to verify specific inputs as people are implying. If someone made a macro that mapped a button to like 50-60% DI (or something good but not clearly TAS), and shook the controller like crazy when DIing to pretend, no one would suspect anything other than some pretty solid DI.

 

[Cobrevolution]

chain ace uses the same adapter,but you can't program macros into it

 

[tehz]

Here is a list of the button mapping options for the adapters, so long as their adapters are the ones I'm thinking of.

The bigger issue is still relevant, obviously. Someone could take all of raphnet's technical info and make their own adapter with macro function (it'd be quite a feat, though). Maybe the opposing player should have the ability to request a button check, and then depending on how that check felt, the TO could be called over. It's not a bad idea to come up with a protocol for these situations before something happens, I guess.

 

[Fireblaster]

You people are obsessing over this too much. The FGC has zero problems with any kind of macro stuff and they practically never have to enforce it. This is also considering that macros are probably far more effective in other fighting games than smash (Not that they're very effective in other fighting games either)

 

[MattNF]

Well probably because
1) the adapter currently doesnt support macros and never will because no one who has the capability of making an adapter will ever use macros
2) even if somone did manage to do that, it'd be super easy to for any TO to just look at the settings on the adapter and see if there are macros
3) you get to see the key presses of your opponent as they play
it's really a complete non-issue

Also, theres never been an adapter in florida, and unless you used an alt it doesn't look like you were at Apex. Have you ever actually seen one used?

Just because that keyboard adapter can't do macros, doesn't mean that nobody could ever make an adapter that could (double negative, sup). And having to stare at an opponent's keyboard DURING GAMEPLAY to make sure he isn't using macros? Come on.

Honestly, macros aren't even the biggest problem. It's keyboard DI. I played on a keyboard for 4 years before switching to controller, and I was able to pull off ridiculous DI effortlessly. I could never do that on controller no matter how hard I tried. I have firsthand and years of experience with both controller types, and keyboard definitely makes it very easy to do DI that's normally very hard to do on a controller.

The rules seem simple enough to me. N64 controllers only on N64 consoles only. No keyboards, no emulators, no donkey konga drums, no ddr pads, no xbox kinect voice commands. Keep the rules basic without introducing all this jank ****.

 

[Cobrevolution]

i'm sick of the di argument, to be quite honest. like i said, compare killer's to boom's from apex and tell me whose is better.

 

[MattNF]

i'm sick of the di argument, to be quite honest. like i said, compare killer's to boom's from apex and tell me whose is better.

That's a pretty poor argument. I have better controller DI than some keyboard players too. Doesn't have any relevance to the fact that it's easier to do things on kb that require effort on controller. "Player X has better DI than player Y therefore player Y gets a free pass" doesn't cut it.

 

[Cobrevolution]

platdrop ff aerials are easier on kb, but not absurdly difficult on controller. it just takes another week of practice.

kirby pivot utilts are easier on kb as well, but again, not hard on controller.

you're not getting an unfair advantage in di if you don't have smart di. killer has really hard DI, but boomfan's survival and combo escaping DI is much better. it's easier to do other **** on hori's, too. honestly i think dex's hori di surpassed almost everyone else's controller or kb di.

as for the list of things harder for kb, correct me if i'm mistaken, but you only have compass directions for pikachu and fox's upbs, right? you have to buffer walks and tilts. it's generally harder to move around with kb than it is with controller, and i'm pretty sure you don't get 5 jump heights or angled tilts and smashes.

 

[NovaSmash]

I still can't believe that sheer even mentioned ps2 dpad having unfair di.

 

[The Star King]

People say it's easier to DI on Hori too. Should we ban that?

platdrop ff aerials are easier on kb.

How? News to me.

 

[Cobrevolution]

well from seeing killer do them instantaneously quite often...you platdrop -> then mash ff, and because of the easier return to neutral, you'll get it faster? something like that. EXPLAIN SK

 

[mixa]

anything that requires you to move 90º degrees will be easier on kb.

I find the 'what is easier on kb' topic pretty interesting, but it seems people only talk about it if there's an agenda behind it. and militancy is always boring.

 

[bloodpeach]

I could build a controller inside a first party n64 shell with macros. Banning all controllers is the only answer.

 

[clubbadubba]

i'm sick of the di argument, to be quite honest. like i said, compare killer's to boom's from apex and tell me whose is better.

killers

I could build a controller inside a first party n64 shell with macros. Banning all controllers is the only answer.

I will **** you up in mind control smash, no joke. I'm practicing right now. So far I've managed to get the how to play video to show at least 10 times.

anything that requires you to move 90º degrees will be easier on kb.

I find the 'what is easier on kb' topic pretty interesting, but it seems people only talk about it if there's an agenda behind it. and militancy is always boring.

I find it intriguing as well. I've accepted keyboards so I haven't had an agenda on this for a while, let's discuss civilly and stuff.

 

[asianaussie]

there are things that are impossible on keyboard

slow walks and non-compass directions (fire fox, link boomerang, pika up-b) are the main ones

angled tilts and smashes are possible, but require two sets of buffering and a lot of pre-mediation, and f-tilts will make you move forward at walk speed

sh u-air and non-ff d-air without buffering (as you are forced to do sometimes) have very small windows within which you have to press the directional key and the A button at the same time

no reason keyboards shouldn't be legal, if it's possible to get DI on controller equivalent or better than the average keyboard mash DI, then there is no reason you should ban keyboard

 

[clubbadubba]

no reason keyboards shouldn't be legal

If I still had a dog in this fight I'd say that's a bold statement that lots of people would disagree with.

But I don't, so nice post dude

 

[asianaussie]

what are the arguments so far, anyway? ill cover all the ones i vaguely remember

>makes hax DI easier
possible with other controllers too, as shown very recently, but nobody is lobbying to ban other controllers

there is the somewhat worthy argument of this extra effort adding up over a tournament period, but let's face it, you get tired as **** at all-day tournaments regardless of how much effort you're putting into DI

>macros
watch their hands, it's pretty bloody obvious irl when somebody has macro'd something
this is also ignoring the ability to program macros into controllers, as im sure a lot of people have said - ban macros, not keyboards

>not official product/not the way the game was meant to be played/developers didnt design it this way
this argument is so ****ty that it's not worth addressing, period

 

[mixa]

pikachu's limited up-b is bad also because if you go up, you'll always face right.
link's limited rangue is bad also because you can't copy isai combos

sh u-air and non-ff d-air without buffering have very small windows within which you have to press the directional key and the A button at the same time

you said it. those are frame perfect, you need to press both buttons simultaneously.
however, you can buffer up immediately after you input jump, and for that the frame window is 4. (i don't like this at all though)

tilts: you'll move if you buffer, obviously, but if you also hold down, you'll crouch and preserve that horizontal direction in the buffer. that's what I use to execute low-angled or normal f-tilts. with falcon i'll do up-angled f-tilts every now and then, it's not hard, just keep moving and landing and buffer and the right time. you can always abort anyway.

advantages of buffering that I haven't seen people mention: you can safely dropzone dair, dash off the platform d/uair, etc. it also means I'm never gonna miss my sh late uair by double-jumping or nairing.

i don't think the various walking velocities are a big deal. cleary I can't imitate ruoka without that, but right now I can't think of a real situation in which I feel impaired.

i do believe that fast fall aerials are easier. but what do i know right. for a test: try to fast fall fair/nair/bair with falcon from dl's side plat. the frame window is 2. it should be pretty clear whether you got the hitbox out. i'm not great at tech skill but i can do that almost consistently.
then go to right plat and fast fall dair with pika. it's pretty cool (if you don't miss the stage).

pivot shieldrop should be easier, because i don't see fast falcons using that. near does it, but not sure who else.

stick jumps are easy. i'm gonna hit my f-throw → facon punch more, and my f-throw pivot d-jump → reverse uair more as well. etc

I was gonna say you can dash dance like crazy but have you seen those melee people? jc

and finally, you can taunt cancel without moving your hand whatsoever (depends on your config but what are you doing with your life if taunt button isn't readily available)

i'm bias though, since i feel a lot more comfortable on kb. when i played melee my tech skill was beyond abysmal.

developers didnt design it this way

i play time mode 3 minutes because that's how it's intended to be played. XDDD


we lost silent edits. ):

 

[clubbadubba]

@aa: You missed a bunch of them. There are a lot of people who still don't think kb's should be there (35-40% ish). Either that many people are so dumb they don't realized they are arguing without any good reasons, or they do have reasons and the statement you said is not true.

If I had a dog in this fight I'd elaborate on things you missed. But I don't

 

[asianaussie]

between those two, i think my statement being untrue is more likely, but feel free to throw arguments at me, unlike some people i actually know when to concede some points

keyboard should be legal though

i honestly think accessibility isn't something we should be putting into arguments - like, safer runoff d-airs is cool and all, but getting the natural buffering instinct down also takes time, the sort of time you could invest into making sure you never do runoff d-airs improperly

im biased towards keyboard too, but from an objective standpoint i started playing it on keyboard from around mid-2007, it took me almost 2 years of casual play to get a level of techskill suitable for online play - ie. it takes time and effort to get to a level where you can reliably do everything AND reap the benefit of easier DI, just like everything else

 

[mixa]

yeah, it's not easy to DI on keyboard like people would think. not even talking about smart DI. i'd say it took a lot more time to put (some) DI into second nature than buffering.

 

[EggSelent]

You people are obsessing over this too much. The FGC has zero problems with any kind of macro stuff and they practically never have to enforce it. This is also considering that macros are probably far more effective in other fighting games than smash (Not that they're very effective in other fighting games either)

Funny you should say this, considering you said that the mere possibility of camping on Hyrule, even when most people don't, should force it to be banned. By that logic, the possibility of macros should ban all keyboards, even when most people don't use them.

 

[asianaussie]

no, by that logic, the possibility of macros should ban all adapters period

banning macros is significantly more feasible than banning camping, which is why you choose to ban hyrule but not to ban all adapters

 

[ballin4life]

Is there a reason why you couldn't bind a different set of keys to do tilts (or make it shift + left to tilt left)? I guess it's just someone would have to make a new input plugin / modify an existing input plugin on PC? And similar functionality would have to exist in the adapter I guess.

 

[Cobrevolution]

killers

no

compare killer vs ruoka to boomfan vs mariguas

 

[EggSelent]

no, by that logic, the possibility of macros should ban all adapters period

banning macros is significantly more feasible than banning camping, which is why you choose to ban hyrule but not to ban all adapters

It's actually close to impossible to ban macros. How could you prove that somebody was using a macro? A well designed macro would be close to impossible to prove to exist.

 

[Cobrevolution]

isn't R a macro for Z+A

 

[clubbadubba]

One thing about alternate controllers in general I don't think is right is that the range can be adjusted. Keyboards

no

compare killer vs ruoka to boomfan vs mariguas

yes, killer.

you know what I said to boom after he di'd the spike onto the stage? I told him he had some killer DI. I would never tell killer he had some boom DI.

 

[Cobrevolution]

killer gets harder/further di, but if he isn't getting it in the places boom is, it's not as good. at least, that's how i look at it. killer wasn't escaping death like boom was.

 

[kys]

Anecdotal evidence is completely misplaced in this argument.

The only way to come up with a standard is to measure the range/ranges of licensed N64 controllers. As long as whatever device is being used fits into those ranges, it's fine. If it's not, it shouldn't be allowed.

But the community is so small it doesn't really matter, and no one cares enough to enforce any of it, so I'm not really seeing the point of this discussion. Apex was fine, might as well keep 'em.

 

[Karajan]

Here is some anecdotal evidence: the KB players all lost to controller players at apex. Quit being a ***** and get better with controller. If you really consider Keyboard to be superior to other controllers, put your money where your mouth is and get good with Keyboard.

DI: I watch like 90% of Killers matches. Boom had better DI than him. I saw Boom actually go the max DI distance. In a friendly. Can't say I saw killer do it in tournament.
Pivot up Tilts: Moyashi did pivot up tilt all the time in friendlies. I actually counted how many times Moyashi used pivot up tilt in his top 8 matches. Its approximately Zero.

From my experience playing with KB is more physically demanding than a controller, and I ****ing type for a living.

More high caliber 64 players is something to strive for. Keyboards won't be banned so get over it.

 

[B Link]

killer gets harder/further di, but if he isn't getting it in the places boom is, it's not as good. at least, that's how i look at it. killer wasn't escaping death like boom was.

Just some thoughts on "(not) getting (DI) in the places boom is": I think this is because the keyboard can only DI in four main directions and four diagonals. I'm not sure how many total directions are possible for DI, but I'm pretty sure it's more than eight. Also, you can adjust the range of your DI on controller (e.g. DI less drastically to the left, instead of maximally to the left), whereas with keyboard you're always inputting a maximum direction input (obviously "maximum" means whatever is the range set for your kb on the plugin).

The above helps defend the position that keyboard DI isn't necessarily superior to controller in all ways.

 

[kys]

The ever-helpful Karajan either has reading comprehension issues or fails to read posts in their entirety.

 

[Skrlx]

sup, KEYS?

 

[The Star King]

Yeah, I've been saying for a long time that people like Boom's DI is as good as any keyboard players. I don't know what clubba is talking about.

 

[clubbadubba]

killer gets harder/further di

Yeah, I've been saying for a long time that people like Boom's DI is as good as any keyboard players

pick one guys, I can't have multiple tangents going here.

A real control stick wiggling world record needs to be set. If its higher than the button pressing world record, the potential for DI is better on keyboard. If its lower, the potential is better on controller. Can we at least agree that one of the controllers has a higher potential than the other for DI instead of pretending that two controllers with different mechanisms, resistances, and distances required for DI?

 

[Cobrevolution]

i don't think anyone is in disagreement over the fact that the potential for DI is better on kb because of the instant snap back to neutral in between directions.

i also think we've generally accepted killer as having the "best" kb di, but purely in terms of how hard he CAN di. i've played unreal a lot and his di sucks compared to mine. koro's DI on stream wasn't anything to gawk at.

my stance is: boom's sense of where/when to di >>> killer's ability of di'ing really hard

 

[mixa]

I don't know what clubba is talking about.

... actually i do. he's been making silly posts in every thread for a while now.

 

[Sangoku]

i don't think anyone is in disagreement over the fact that the potential for DI is better on kb because of the instant snap back to neutral in between directions.

Getting back to neutral position doesn't help DIing at all. Except if you're referring to weak smash DI, but then it's even harder to compare : controller (arguably bad) slide DI (good) vs keyboard (arguably good) smash DI (bad). Both sides have the same number of "good". I think it's more relevent to compare both slide DI. On controller you need to make a quarter circle and on keyboard you need to alternate between two keys (at least, depending on the direction you want to go to).