This is a very interesting excel file, but I personally don't have any of the launch angle data for reverse up-b and tipper fsmash.
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Data Kadano's perfect Marth class -- advanced frame data application
- Thread starter Kadano
- Start date
Metal Gear Salad
Smash Apprentice
Kadano
Magical Express
They are within the xlsx file dude
Ah, can't believe I didn't notice that.
Interesting stuff though.I guess tipper fsmash and reverse up-b have the same BKB/KBG and launch angles; making tipper fsmash invariably the strongest option in terms of knockback if you can land it. Then again, reverse up-b's has less hitlag frames and its easier to land the optimal hit.
If you had to guess though, is there a point where up-b's lower knockback is more favorable than tipper fsmash against optimal survival DI? (In the context of CGing Fox/Falco that is)
Kadano
Magical Express
Dsmash tipper is stronger than fsmash tipper from 32% on or something like that. I added a column to the file that shows the 100w knockback approximation for every hitbox. It’s not correct for weight-dependent set knockback, but every other hitbox should be fine.
Neither up-B nor dsmash are useful for chaingrabs, except for finishing a fair/uair-combo. If you can tipper-fsmash instead, never go for up-B.
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BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
Do you have any information on SDI'ing a fox shine, how big is the window to get SDI on the shine?
Most importantly:
Does 1 SDI input (and DI away I suppose) push marth far enough way to get out of a drill->shine follow up (JC grab or usmash).
I like to try to SDI shines when I see them coming and dash away cause it completely contorts marth's hurtbox. I feel like when I get the SDI I'm not bad at avoiding a follow up but I'm sure the fox could probably just do his string faster.
Most importantly:
Does 1 SDI input (and DI away I suppose) push marth far enough way to get out of a drill->shine follow up (JC grab or usmash).
I like to try to SDI shines when I see them coming and dash away cause it completely contorts marth's hurtbox. I feel like when I get the SDI I'm not bad at avoiding a follow up but I'm sure the fox could probably just do his string faster.
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hectohertz
Smash Ace
@
Kadano
in a tech-chase scenario, at what percents can sheik dash attack fox/falco (its a tech-chase so no true crouch cancel) and get a guaranteed follow up. I know at low percent they either don't leave the ground, or they can tech fast enough that they can punish you. i also know at very high percent they can DI so that you can no longer get a follow up.
feel free to only do it for one of the spacies if its too much work. also if its too much work, just knowing what % this STARTS working would be huge
Kadano
in a tech-chase scenario, at what percents can sheik dash attack fox/falco (its a tech-chase so no true crouch cancel) and get a guaranteed follow up. I know at low percent they either don't leave the ground, or they can tech fast enough that they can punish you. i also know at very high percent they can DI so that you can no longer get a follow up.
feel free to only do it for one of the spacies if its too much work. also if its too much work, just knowing what % this STARTS working would be huge
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BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
I highly recommend doing falco over fox. falco has the better tech roll so anything that would work on him would pretty much work on fox@
in a tech-chase scenario, at what percents can sheik dash attack fox/falco (its a tech-chase so no true crouch cancel) and get a guaranteed follow up. I know at low percent they either don't leave the ground, or they can tech fast enough that they can punish you. i also know at very high percent they can DI so that you can no longer get a follow up.
feel free to only do it for one of the spacies if its too much work. also if its too much work, just knowing what % this STARTS working would be huge
hectohertz
Smash Ace
its about weight/fall-speed not tech-roll distance. at any percent, you can get the dash attack off the tech-roll, the question is can you get a follow up after that? but falco is heavier and falls faster, so you may still be correct :D
Metal Gear Salad
Smash Apprentice
Hi Kadano, another question regarding ledge stalling with neutral B. How big is the window to drop, jump and shield breaker and still regrab the ledge?
hectohertz
Smash Ace
oh i actually worked out the frame data for this. @The Depths or @Vino do you have the info i gave you for that?
Kadano
Magical Express
Refer to the xlsx file for that from now on, please. http://www.mediafire.com/download/kwbkgsdok1dekd7/SSBM_Hitboxes_(NTSC_1.0)_&_Knockback_1.5k.xlsx
Shine hitlag is 6 frames in general, but only 4 if completely stale.
Depends on Fox’ execution. If Fox is perfect with the wavedash and dash inputs, he stil has a 7 frame window for his JC usmash. He will hit you with the strong hitbox on all of these 7 frames regardless of whether you SDI in, out or don’t SDI.
If you can dash away, the Fox messed up.
For Falco, at exactly 50% if he simply holds down. If he uses DSDI, this threshold increases to 61%. Assuming your dash attack is fresh, Falco doesn’t charge a smash, yadda yadda.
@harMoNiC created a very handy document for these things: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...B_MhLn6tIwgDR0qYLsr1iqsNk/edit#gid=1693205398
hectohertz
Smash Ace
it would start working earlier on fox, correct?
Kadano
Magical Express
Not necessarily. For the first frame of knockback, terminal velocity (top falling speed; 3.1 for Falco while Fox has “only” 2.8) is usually irrelevant; only KB (including TDI, ASDI and SDI) and gravity matter.
While Falco’s weight is higher (80 vs 75), his gravity is lower (0.17 vs 0.23). Thus, he suffers less from the knockback scaling, but has less “base resistance” against knockback (that’s how I’d describe gravity’s effect here, at least).
Anyway, Fox with holding down is 50% as well. DSDI is 58.
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Metal Gear Salad
Smash Apprentice
Wow, a 4 frame window at best. No wonder I'm so inconsistent. Thanks for redirecting me to that spreadsheet, very cool.
Kadano
Magical Express
Unreactable? No way. Counting from the first frame dthrow animation can be told apart from other throws, Fox has 22 frames until he hits the ground (and thus is able to decide on teching) even at 0%. That’s just as much as the average choice reaction time, and with practice you should definitely be below that.
It’s not possible to tell the throw early enough to DI on reaction, if that’s what your talking about. But that doesn’t matter for dthrow when you tech it.
Mr. Bean
Smash Apprentice
Teach me the ways Kadano. This is taking a while for me to understand. I've caught on to a few things, but I guess I just don't get the terminology? I want to be the perfect Marth
hectohertz
Smash Ace
any chance i can ask this same question, but for usmash rather than dash attack? i'm working on using it in a tech-chase scenario, so assume sheik hits with the ground hitbox. my intuition is that it starts working before DA, but im not sure
edit: this is because ive been working on changing the way i tech-chase, and not going for regrabs at percents where i can get a launcher. im trying to figure out when i should make the switch
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Kadano
Magical Express
Dair only works if they “DI in” (not an accurate term, but I don’t know a better short explanation). The degree they need to DI in is one where you can simply fsmash or dtilt them instead, which is similar reward (except in PAL, where it’s much higher) and lower risk (especially in PAL). So I don’t think it’s ever a good idea to go for dair.@
So after seeing M2K drop zone dair Leffen's Fox with Marth, I started to wonder if this was a unexplored option.
How effective do you think Marth's drop zone fair is vs. Fox and Falco out of fthrow?
Fair covers even slighter DI in, but those you can catch with dsmash as well. Fair will tipper them so they can recover high and close, which is bad for you. They can do so after a dsmash as well (if they aren’t at killing percent), but you have more time to act after that.
I personally usually dtilt if I think my opponent might DI in. I have lots of time to cover the rest of the options this way. If I read DI in, I go for fsmash.
If you don’t understand a term, search for it on ssbwiki or smashlounge. If it’s not there, do a Google search limited to smashboards. If this still doesn’t produce any results, you can ask on the forums or me directly (if it’s a term few people or even only I use).
Full jump → double jump → nair (second hit only). That works from until 150% or so. If there’s a high platform above you, techchase with uair and follow up with fsmash nair or up-B.
This is the wrong place (we are in the Marth boards after all) and I don’t really care about this, sorry. This should be easy to figure out by yourself if you have a laptop or PC that can run Dolphin, though.
Bones0
Smash Legend
I know gravity sort of fights against vertical KB, but which gravity value is used? A while back I heard Fox has a higher falling speed than Falco, but Falco's FF speed is faster than Fox's FF speed. Is this true, and if so, is the FF speed the one used when counteracting vertical KB?
Kadano
Magical Express
Gravity during the first 10+ frames. Afterwards, you reach the top falling speed (I think falling speed is calculated before knockback, so you can reach max falling speed but still fly upwards due to latent momentum).
You can’t FF during knockback, so FF speed is irrelevant.
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Bones0
Smash Legend
I think you misunderstood. Every character has 2 fall speeds: regular fall and fast fall. I read somewhere that Fox has a faster regular fall than Falco, but Falco has a faster fast fall. If this is the case, which fall speed does the game use when calculating KB? Does it use regular fall speed? I was under the impression that Falco's high FF speed prevented him from dying off the top earlier than Fox (even with a small % increase to make up for the weight difference), but if the game uses regular fall speed in the calculation instead of fastfall speed, then it would be the other way around.
Kadano
Magical Express
I think not.
Well, that’s simply wrong if we understand “faster regular fall” as “faster terminal velocity”. See what I wrote before on this: Falco’s terminal velocity (max falling speed) is 3.1 whereas Fox’ is only 2.8. Thus, Fox’ regular fall speed is lower than Falco’s.
FF term vel is 3.5 for Falco and 3.4 for Fox. (But hey, it’s not like those are within Hitboxes[…].xlsx or anything.
)Thus, Fox accelerates to his top falling speed faster and falls faster than Falco before he reaches it. After about 15 frames, Falco has reached his top falling speed and thus falls faster than Fox from that point on.
FF term vel is only applied when you actually fastfall. And I’m pretty sure you can’t fastfall when you are still in hitstun.
Edit: In case this still isn’t unclear: Gravity is the rate (Δy if you will) with which a character approaches his top falling speed. As soon as he has reached this value, his falling speed won’t increase. Unless he fastfalls or uses moves that accelerate downwards, that is.
So if you use Fox/Falco and run from the edge without fastfalling, you will fall with these speeds:
0|0|0
1|0.23|0.17
2|0.46|0.34
3|0.69|0.51
4|0.92|0.68
5|1.15|0.85
6|1.38|1.02
7|1.61|1.19
8|1.84|1.36
9|2.07|1.53
10|2.30|1.70
11|2.53|1.87
12|2.76|2.04
13| 2.80 |2.21
14|2.80|2.38
15|2.80|2.55
16|2.80|2.72
17|2.80|2.89
18|2.80|3.06
19|2.80| 3.10
∞|2.80|3.10
(Exception: when you do instant aerials, gravitation is applied starting on the first frame instead of the second.)
Further reading: http://smashboards.com/posts/12816243
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Bones0
Smash Legend
Thanks, I vastly underestimated the complexity of Melee's gravity.
When will I learn?
When will I learn?
hectohertz
Smash Ace
fair enough. can you explain your methodology for figuring out these %s so i can try to do it?
Kadano
Magical Express
Replicate the situation in develop mode, save to a state (Shift+F1-8)
Test a damage % that you think is close to the threshold
Frame step with perfect inputs
If there is ground collision, load the state, increase damage and repeat. If there is no collision, load the state and decrease the damage, then repeat.
Mr. Bean
Smash Apprentice
Kadano have you shown a picture of Marth's dair knockback angles? I would like to see that
Kadano
Magical Express
No, but all the information is in here: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Marth_(SSBM)/Down_aerial
By the way, I’m finished with a small fun project I did to get more familiar with the Pl**.dat file format. Basically, I created a somewhat improved version of Marth where the visual slash effects indicate active hitboxes. Most of his non-special attacks have more hitbox frames now. For example, his fsmash now hits starting on frame 8 instead of 10, So Marth can now tipper-fsmash opponents that stand very close behind him.
The only attacks I increased in knockback power are bair and sourspot usmash. I always felt Marth should have at least one aerial attack with decent knockback power, and not zero. I only increased the knockback growth from 70 to 92, so it’s still weaker than, for example, Fox’, Falco’s and Sheik’s bair, but it’s able to kill heavy characters on large stages before 200% damage now.
Sourspot usmash now has about 2 times as much knockback, 80° KB angle instead of 70° and can follow-up into dsmash or fsmash if the opponent doesn’t DI properly.
I just figured I’d share it here if someone else wants it. Download link: https://www.mediafire.com/?9mifituunj0qirx
Code:
PlMs.dat offsets and “Improved Marth” change log:
SpecialHi intangibility start 4403 05→04 #increase intangibility by 1
SpecialHi intangibility end 445B 01→02 #synchronous timer needs adjusting
AttackDash hitbox start 4BEB 0C→08 #start 4 frames earlier / move to swing start
AttackDash hitbox duration 4C63 04→12 #much longer duration
AttackS3 hitbox start 4C8B 07→05 #move to swing start
AttackS3 hitbox duration 4D0B 04→0A #move to swing stop
AttackHi3 hitbox early start 4D3B 06→05 #move to swing start
AttackHi3 hitbox clean start 4DB3 03→05 #synchronous timer needs to be adjusted
AttackHi3 hitbox clean duration 4E07 04→06 #move to swing end
AttackLw3 hitbox start 4E2F 07→06 #move to stab start
AttackLw3 hitbox duration 4EA7 03→05 #move to stab end
AttackS4 hitbox start 4F1B 0A→08 #move to swing start
AttackS4 hitbox end 4F93 0E→0E #[offset documentation]
AttackHi4 hitbox start 4FEF 0D→0C #move to thrust start
AttackHi4 h0 angle 500C 23→28 #change KB angle from 70 to 80
AttackHi4 h0 wdsk 500E 0C81→0E81 #increase WDSK
AttackHi4 h1 angle 5020 23→28 #change KB angle from 70 to 80
AttackHi4 h1 wdsk 5022 0C81→0 #increase WDSK8E1
AttackHi4 hitbox duration 507F 04→05 #
AttackLw4 hitbox1 start 50BF 05→04 #move to swing start
AttackLw4 hitbox1 duration 513F 03→04 #synchronous timer needs adjusting
AttackLw4 hitbox2 start 5157 14→13 #move to swing start
AttackLw4 hitbox2 duration 51CF 03→04 #synchronous timer needs adjusting
AttackLw4 IASA 51E7 3E→2C #decrease IASA from 62 to 44
AttackAirF hitbox start 530B 04→03 #move to swing start
AttackAirF hitbox end 536F 04→08 #move to swing end
AttackAirB hitbox start 539F 07→03 #move to swing start
AttackAirB h3 KBG 53F5 918→970 #increase knockback growth from 70 to 92
AttackAirB hitbox end 5403 05→09 #synchronous timer needs adjusting
AttackAirB IASA 541F 23→21 #decrease IASA from 35 to 33
AttackAirHi hitbox end 549B 09→12 #move to swing end
AttackAirHi IASA 54B3 3C→23 #decrease IASA from 60 to 35
AttackAirLw hitbox start 54C7 06→05 #move to swing start
AttackAirLw hitbox end 5537 0C→0D #move to swing end
AttackAirLw IASA 5547 50→36 #decrease IASA from 80 to 54
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Kadano
Magical Express
I won’t create gfycats of all the changed attacks as you can simply view them in Dolphin on your own. But here is one preview at least:
Edit: Some hitboxes (didn’t bother to capture lag frames)
:
Edit: Some hitboxes (didn’t bother to capture lag frames)
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lol I wish Marth had that fair/bair and usmash in the actual game. I feel like his zero death potential vs. Fox/Falco would be ridiculous if the tipper on his usmash was correctly aligned.
Btw, Kadano, do you know if hitting shield has any effect on your momentum? I'm pretty sure it doesn't, but I figured I'd ask anyway.
Also, I noticed that Mango used cross up nairs vs. Hax in their set at BH4, what do you think of this option?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzcIOB8aRbk#t=477
Btw, Kadano, do you know if hitting shield has any effect on your momentum? I'm pretty sure it doesn't, but I figured I'd ask anyway.
Also, I noticed that Mango used cross up nairs vs. Hax in their set at BH4, what do you think of this option?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzcIOB8aRbk#t=477
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Mr. Bean
Smash Apprentice
Personally I don't want any changes to Marth. (there won't be anyway) I really like the idea of working with what you've got available and beasting it anyway.
i.e. green ranger on DK and Axe on Pikachu. And Marth isn't even bad either. haha
i.e. green ranger on DK and Axe on Pikachu. And Marth isn't even bad either. haha
Kadano
Magical Express
Marth’s tools are good enough, I agree. Still, the effort he needs to kill heavy floaties is absurd. Peach doesn’t die before 220% on large stages because Marth has no good killing options. (DB1 to utilt can be DI’d out of, and the DB1 is fishy anyway.)
Regardless of balance opinions, I want to create my own Melee balance patch where everything is supposed to make more sense. And I always felt that Marth‘s slashing graphical effects should indicate hitboxes, so I edited his attacks to do just that.
Due to bair’s 3-dimensional hitbox alignment, it‘s a very interesting tool now. Here is an illustration of the increase in knockback power compared to Falco’s/Fox‘ strong bair hitbox:
Well this is more true in PAL than NTSC since Marth has some pretty legit low % death combos on Peach thanks to dair.
And isn't fthrow>Wd (or Pivot) fsmash a combo/frame trap on Peach? I guess it wouldn't kill on Dreamland but it seems like a pretty reliable option on other stages.
Kadano
Magical Express
No, she can airdodge out.
Really? At any percent?
Kadano
Magical Express
Yes. Yes.
Wow, didn't know that. I guess its dash attacks 4 life then.