Data Kadano's perfect Marth class -- advanced frame data application

[1MachGO]

@ Kadano , if you are 50% between hard press shield and full light shield, what is the multiplier on shieldstun?

Also, with a 50% shield press and Shield ASDI away, will Fox/Falco's nair shine push you at a great enough distance to avoid a shine>grab?

 

[Kadano]

@ Kadano , if you are 50% between hard press shield and full light shield, what is the multiplier on shieldstun?

Also, with a 50% shield press and Shield ASDI away, will Fox/Falco's nair shine push you at a great enough distance to avoid a shine>grab?

I don’t know how to read shieldstun multipliers. All of my attempts of finding memory adresses with debug-Dolphin have been unsuccessful so far, unfortunately.

It depends on how Fox or Falco executes nair and shine. If he is very close to you, you won’t escape it with ASDI. Not even with SDI.
If you provide an animation (not simply a Youtube&t= link; the work required for downloading, trimming and uploading the video to gfycat is your part) of a shinegrab where you want to know if ASDI would have escaped it, I can reconstruct and test it for you.

 

[Bones0]

@ Kadano
Concerning the Fox being thrown issue, is that the true cause of Fox getting knocked down by Falco's dthrow in PAL? I had always heard/assumed it was because of the weight difference, but your GIF makes it seem like Fox's throw animations might just be different in general. Strangely enough, the other day I dthrew a Fox in NTSC and he actually fell over. The only explanation I could come up with was that I was on the slant of Yoshi's facing uphill so I reasoned he landed a frame earlier than normal. If that wasn't the case, is it possible there's some ECB stuff going on, or does that all get reset when he gets grabbed?

 

[Tee ay eye]

@ Kadano a few questions

1. I think I asked this a while ago, but do you have any sort of TASalyzed information about optimal DI vs Sheik and Falcon's auto-combos?

2. What do you think about neutral B as a move to edgeguard space animals (particularly side B, but also up B). I'm finding I actually really really love this move bc it can easily cover multiple side B heights (and reaches pretty low) and it seems to have relatively fast cooldown allowing you to continue your follow-up even if you miss (like, if they recover high)

3. Best way to DI Falco's uthrow/his combos?

 

[alphabattack]

Relatively speaking, everything can be a lot.

…

7 frames is the default amount of hitlag for a 13 damage hitbox. Every attack that either deals 14+ damage or is electrical and deals 9+ damage does more hitlag.

I was also wondering something else. I watched your melee mechanics video (Specifically the teching and DI one), and I saw that when you tech a hit on the ground like fox's down smash, if you input an attack the frame you come out of the tech animation, it will cancel your knockback. Can you input a buffered spotdodge instead?

 

[Kadano]

@ Tee ay eye I‘m sorry that I rarely ever answer your questions. It‘s just that the questions you ask tend to be exclusively ones that require a lot (hours) of testing and I’m currently not willing to do that.

@ alphabattack no, you can’t. C-stick buffering requires you to be in your shield for one frame, and you will slip off on that frame.

 

[Tityboi]

So the other day I was practicing ledge hop aerials with falcon (I know its the marth boards but I don't know where else to ask this), I was only half paying attention, and I accidentally edge-cancelled knee and then grabbed ledge again... Could you do this frame perfect and be completely invincible? What other characters do you think you could get significant invincibility from this?

 

[Meru]

@ Kadano would it be possible for you to make a graph showing the knockback from Dair vs Upair? I seem to remember there being a graph showing the knockback growths for marth's moves, but I can't seem to find it.

 

[Kadano]

So the other day I was practicing ledge hop aerials with falcon (I know its the marth boards but I don't know where else to ask this), I was only half paying attention, and I accidentally edge-cancelled knee and then grabbed ledge again... Could you do this frame perfect and be completely invincible? What other characters do you think you could get significant invincibility from this?

Even with perfect execution (very hard), you are vulnerable for two frames.

@ Kadano would it be possible for you to make a graph showing the knockback from Dair vs Upair? I seem to remember there being a graph showing the knockback growths for marth's moves, but I can't seem to find it.

It‘s at the end of post #2 of this thread. It’s a photograph of a drawing, though, so it’s not all that fancy-looking. Unfortunately I never came across a good and easy plotting program for linear functions, so recently I did that with GIMP:

If you are asking for dair against grounded opponents, note that doing so causes a bounce and thus a knockback reduction of 20%. The hitstun is not affected, however.

 

[hectohertz]

@ Kadano can you explain what the best inputs are going getting shield smash DI? does it function similarly to regular SDI in terms of the points you must hit to get movement?

 

[1MachGO]

@ Kadano

Not sure if this question has been asked yet, but could you provide an image of the lowest double jump dair you can perform offstage while still being able to recover to the ledge?

 

[BTmoney]

@ Kadano can you explain what the best inputs are going getting shield smash DI? does it function similarly to regular SDI in terms of the points you must hit to get movement?

I believe the answer is yes but I'm not the expert.

 

[Kadano]

@ Kadano can you explain what the best inputs are going getting shield smash DI? does it function similarly to regular SDI in terms of the points you must hit to get movement?

See post #1 → index → shield smash DI.

 

[SpiderMad]

Does using a DJ reduce your horizontal momentum?

 

[Bones0]

Does using a DJ reduce your horizontal momentum?

http://smashboards.com/threads/official-ask-anyone-frame-things-thread.313889/page-11#post-14629865

 

[SpiderMad]

I remember that post but it doesn't offer me much of how much it reduces, like if I'm traversing the stage through the air to DJ or not

 

[Kadano]

Does using a DJ reduce your horizontal momentum?

That’s like asking whether dashing reduces your horizontal momentum. The second jump introduces a movement component / vector that may work against, but also together with the KB comp, depending on your control stick position.

 

[SpiderMad]

That’s like asking whether dashing reduces your horizontal momentum. The second jump introduces a movement component / vector that may work against, but also together with the KB comp, depending on your control stick position.

So it's possible if I'm trying to transverse the air the fastest I can go to get to opposite side of the stage: DJ could slightly boost me there faster?

 

[Tityboi]

So it's possible if I'm trying to transverse the air the fastest I can go to get to opposite side of the stage: DJ could slightly boost me there faster?

Assuming that you don't have a maximum horizontal air speed velocity while not in knockback , then yes, you would arrive at the opposite side faster. But thats just the horizontal component. You're still adding a vertical momentum component as well, so, if you want to be on the ground when you get to the other side, it might not be faster (character dependent). Anyway this is all assuming you don't have a maximum horizontal air speed velocity, which I'm pretty sure you do.

 

[BTmoney]

Which nair is "safer" in terms of punish window (between when the hit box in front of you goes away, you land, and you are actionable)?

a SH non-fast-falled nair that auto cancels by itself
or a SH fast fall nair with the second frontward swing being low to the ground and is L canceled

 

[Kadano]

Which nair is "safer" in terms of punish window (between when the hit box in front of you goes away, you land, and you are actionable)?

a SH non-fast-falled nair that auto cancels by itself
or a SH fast fall nair with the second frontward swing being low to the ground and is L canceled

I answered that question a year ago or even earlier. Probably in this thread. I’ll edit the post in if I find it.

 

[tauKhan]

@ BTmoney Your earliest actionable frame is the 29th frame after starting the nair in both cases. However, with auto cancel nair you can use your aerial mobility after the nair hits to get to safer position.

 

[1MachGO]

Hey Kadano, do you have any posts about catching Peach's turnips?

 

[hectohertz]

See post #1 → index → shield smash DI.

sorry i should have clarified, i already read that post. seeing as you can only get an SDI input every two frames, what would the best motion be for triggering maximum SSDI? if i wanted to go to the right, would i wanna roll the stick between 45 and 315 degrees repeatedly? do i need a bigger range?

 

[Kadano]

sorry i should have clarified, i already read that post. seeing as you can only get an SDI input every two frames, what would the best motion be for triggering maximum SSDI? if i wanted to go to the right, would i wanna roll the stick between 45 and 315 degrees repeatedly? do i need a bigger range?

Hmm, just in that post, I explained that rolling (90° alternation) does not work:
“Shield DI seems to work just like normal SDI except you can only move left or right. Because of that, you can’t do the 90° alternation movement, you can only SDI every second frame.”
Thus, you want to alternate between the [0/255,128] and [128,128] control stick coordinates as quickly as possible.

Edit: I wanted to test this again to make sure, but one of my HDDs seems to have just died, and it had all of my Melee .isos.

 

[Bones0]

Hey Kadano, do you have any posts about catching Peach's turnips?

I believe there was a Magus post about this, but the images were broken unfortunately.

 

[Meru]

assuming max horizontal velocity, would you be able to recover from a farther distance by:
A) sweetspotting with the hardest horizontal dolphin slash
or
B) drifting farther and sweetspotting with a minimally horizontal dolphin slash?
Also, how many possible dolphin slashes are there (in terms of altering horizontal movement)?

 

[Tee ay eye]

I believe there was a Magus post about this, but the images were broken unfortunately.

xeylode posted some images

http://smashboards.com/threads/kada...data-application.337035/page-13#post-16365127

 

[1MachGO]

xeylode posted some images

http://smashboards.com/threads/kadano’s-perfect-marth-class—advanced-frame-data-application.337035/page-13#post-16365127

So standing still gives a far more optimal grab box than running

interesting...

 

[SpiderMad]

Am I seeing things or does Samus become White Marth here in the Magnifier? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyoPeoMRBE8#t=258

 

[tm]

Am I seeing things or does Samus become White Marth here in the Magnifier? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyoPeoMRBE8#t=258

You're seeing things.

 

[Tee ay eye]

@ Tee ay eye I‘m sorry that I rarely ever answer your questions. It‘s just that the questions you ask tend to be exclusively ones that require a lot (hours) of testing and I’m currently not willing to do that.

lol it's cool

the reason i'm asking you is because i'm not gonna do that either, but i thought you might already have the answer

 

[DJ _ICE]

Kadano, two questions :

What would be Marth 's fastest way to grab ledge? I think run - > wavedash - > hold stick away to buffer turn around - > momentum carries marth to ledge is fastest.

What would be the best way to use dancing blade in the air for the most horizontal distance (like the best timing for each use )

 

[leekslap]

This is scary.

 

[Kadano]

What would be Marth 's fastest way to grab ledge? I think run - > wavedash - > hold stick away to buffer turn around - > momentum carries marth to ledge is fastest.

Yes, that’s one of the fastest. The only thing holding it back is that Marth’s tilt turn (which you get by hold-buffering the turn) takes 7 frames until your orientation has properly been reversed. During these frames, you will decelerate from the wavedash speed. Only slightly, due to Marth’s low traction, but still.

It’s probably 1 or 2 frames faster to do run → wavedash → smash turn (1 frame before sliding off) or run → wavedash → smash turn → wavedash back. The latter one should even be feasible. But considering the minimal speed gain, I would always go for your input with the tilt turn, as that one is much easier and more reliable.

What would be the best way to use dancing blade in the air for the most horizontal distance (like the best timing for each use )

Dancing blade limits your falling speed below your terminal velocity while keeping your air speed. Thus, you want to use it as often as possible so that you spend the least amount of time in Fall (where you’d accelerate to your terminal velocity). See index → recovering → “how does side-B […]” if you haven’t yet.

 

[SpiderMad]

Does Power shielding/Hard pressing your shield blow your tech window at all if you got hit the frame before the shield went up and became quickly knocked down?

Edit:
Yeah so it seems like if you time a power shield, or hard press your shield, but you got hit before you pressed it in time; I think you blew your tech window

 

[tm]

It’s probably 1 or 2 frames faster to do run → wavedash → smash turn (1 frame before sliding off) or run → wavedash → smash turn → wavedash back.

Is it possible to smash turn without dashing behind? Or do you mean smash turn on the frame before you slide offstage?

 

[Kadano]

Is it possible to smash turn without dashing behind? Or do you mean smash turn on the frame before you slide offstage?

You only dash if you keep your control stick within the smash zone (strong input) for at least another frame. Doing so would prevent you from sliding off, thus it’s absolutely necessary to let go of the control stick after one frame.

 

[mordicon]

@ Kadano
What happens here with this up-air I do?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhs2mJhNpgs&t=31s
Here it is slowed down
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yk0zuYh--PU
It looks like I get pushed off by Sheik then upair and land back on the platform some how
Thanks for any insight

 

[Kadano]

It looks like I get pushed off by Sheik then upair and land back on the platform some how
Thanks for any insight

Index (post #1) → Mechanics → ECB explanation, platform cancel.

By the way, it’s neither necessary nor beneficial to @ me here. This thread is on my watchlist, so I get notified whenever there’s a reply.