Data Kadano's perfect Marth class -- advanced frame data application

[Bones0]

Does DA work vs. DI down and away? I feel like I should know this...

 

[Kadano]

Does DA work vs. DI down and away? I feel like I should know this...

@ 1 1MachGO I tested this some years ago and I remember that dash attack never works against down and away DI.
I also think dash short hop fair covers more DI angles than dash attack, but that’s just a guess.

 

[Mr. Bean]

I see what you're saying now. but wouldn't that make him a crap load better? like to the point of not really that fair? (pun intended)

 

[heyitshoward]

what %s does marth's dair result in the grabbable ground flip animation on fox, falco and falcon?

 

[Kadano]

I see what you're saying now. but wouldn't that make him a crap load better? like to the point of not really that fair? (pun intended)

He’d definitely be better, but it’s just his tools being more useful and longer lasting. Anyway, my goal was not to balance out Melee’s roster so every character can hold his ground against spacies, like it seems to be for Project M. My goal was to alter Marth to what I always felt he should be. To me, he is more fun now, and the weird bair hitboxes are challenging in a very fun way.

what %s does marth's dair result in the grabbable ground flip animation on fox, falco and falcon?

That might sound like a simple question but it’s actually not. If the target DI’s down and away, you can never grab in NTSC and I won’t test the 3d set of %/DI/KB.

 

[Bones0]

He’d definitely be better, but it’s just his tools being more useful and longer lasting. Anyway, my goal was not to balance out Melee’s roster so every character can hold his ground against spacies, like it seems to be for Project M. My goal was to alter Marth to what I always felt he should be. To me, he is more fun now, and the weird bair hitboxes are challenging in a very fun way.


That might sound like a simple question but it’s actually not. If the target DI’s down and away, you can never grab in NTSC and I won’t test the 3d set of %/DI/KB.

How would DI matter if they are in grounded stun the whole time? I dair -> grab both spacies all the time, and it seems like a true combo in most cases (harder to tell when the dair isn't super late or I have to turn around/run up).

 

[heyitshoward]

Hmm, very interesting. does this mean i can DI falcon stomp at low %s down and away to avoid the regrab thing?

 

[djmath]

Hey Kadano, do you have a flowchart/guide to throwing peach and puff and the followups you can do? or just a chart for what percents they'll die at to side b uptilt on various stages and locations on those stages? (sorry not related to the current conversation)

 

[Kadano]

How would DI matter if they are in grounded stun the whole time? I dair -> grab both spacies all the time, and it seems like a true combo in most cases (harder to tell when the dair isn't super late or I have to turn around/run up).

Hmm, very interesting. does this mean i can DI falcon stomp at low %s down and away to avoid the regrab thing?

I think I misunderstood you. I thought “ground flip” meant “small flip flying curve just above ground” instead of “grounded hitstun”.

Fox: 0-19%
Falco: 0-20%
Captain Falcon: 0-25%

Assuming dair is unstale, target doesn’t crouch or charge a smash.

 

[heyitshoward]

oh is that what it's called? That makes a lot of sense, my language was certainly very unclear.

Thanks!

 

[tm]

I think I misunderstood you. I thought “ground flip” meant “small flip flying curve just above ground” instead of “grounded hitstun”.

Fox: 0-19%
Falco: 0-20%
Captain Falcon: 0-25%

Assuming dair is unstale, target doesn’t crouch or charge a smash.

Whew, I thought Kadano was wrong for a second.

EDIT: How would it change if they are charging a smash attack?

 

[Kadano]

Hey Kadano, do you have a flowchart/guide to throwing peach and puff and the followups you can do? or just a chart for what percents they'll die at to side b uptilt on various stages and locations on those stages? (sorry not related to the current conversation)

Jigglypuff is in post #2 of this thread.
Peach has pretty much no followups from grab. Even if her DI is bad, she can airdodge out of almost everything due to her rather high weight.

Whether they die from side-B to utilt depends on whether they DI the side-B properly the most, and I don’t know what kind of chart you want for that, haha.

I don’t know a faster way to find out percents for utilt than manually testing differents with proper DI, something that you can easily do by yourself.

 

[Bones0]

Whew, I thought Kadano was wrong for a second.

EDIT: How would it change if they are charging a smash attack?

When you charge a smash attack, your weight decreases slightly. You can test by charging a smash with Marth and knocking him down with Fox's shine.

 

[Kadano]

When you charge a smash attack, your weight decreases slightly. You can test by charging a smash with Marth and knocking him down with Fox's shine.

Your weight doesn’t decrease. It’s just a multiplier of 1.2 to total knockback. Similar to knockback staling – you wouldn’t say that staling a move increases the target’s weight against it either.

Fyi, if Fox charges a smash when your dair hits him, he will remain in grounded hitstun only from 0-3%.
Falco: 0-4%
CF: 0-6%

 

[net1234]

m2k was talking about upthrow ken combo/reverse dolphin slash mixups. what %s and di can u up-b off of upthrow on fox?

 

[ItWasAMindgame!]

Marth
Upthrow takes 39 frames against him. He is too floaty for uthrow utilt to ever combo on him.

What about u-air/n-air/f-air followups? Is that a thing?

 

[tm]

It’s just a multiplier of 1.2 to total knockback

Wow, I had no idea. Interesting mechanic

 

[Mr. Bean]

I have a good question. If I want to learn how to ledge tech back air consistently, but i don't have someone else to play with, how should I go about learning it?

 

[artofskjet]

I have a good question. If I want to learn how to ledge tech back air consistently, but i don't have someone else to play with, how should I go about learning it?

I ran off the stage and threw a motion sensor bomb on the ledge. i think throwing the motion sensor bomb near the ledge also works

 

[Kadano]

I have a good question. If I want to learn how to ledge tech back air consistently, but i don't have someone else to play with, how should I go about learning it?

The method @ artofskjet works, but obviously it’s much better to find someone else to play with. In the area you live in, I’m really sure that you’ll find someone.

 

[Mr. Bean]

oh yeah of course there's stuff going on all the time, so maybe i should just tell them that i want to learn that instead of just playing? idk we go over PB&J's house all the time and end up festing it for a while. but i don't get the chance to sit down with people 1 on 1 very often for a while. It's always like... 2 3 games and switch lol

 

[Kadano]

oh yeah of course there's stuff going on all the time, so maybe i should just tell them that i want to learn that instead of just playing? idk we go over PB&J's house all the time and end up festing it for a while. but i don't get the chance to sit down with people 1 on 1 very often for a while. It's always like... 2 3 games and switch lol

Invite one of them to your home.

 

[Espi]

How do I go about applying frame data in game?

 

[Bones0]

How do I go about applying frame data in game?

You should think of it the other way. If you have a problem or ambiguous situation in game, then you can figure out what is and is not possible with frame data. Don't look at a bunch of frame data and try to use it. Frame data for any specific action is going to be useless in 99% of scenarios. Knowing what frame Marth's fair comes out isn't going to help you except in very specific circumstances (like attacking OoS), and that's one of the more common things frame data is used for.

Actually, one of my biggest pet peeves in this thread is people asking for frame data on really broadly scoped subjects. People will ask for things like the frame data for a dair into tipper combo. Not only are there tons of DI options that change how many frames you have to move for before fsmashing, but even if you have the frame data is doesn't help you. You can't count frames in-game, so you just have to know intuitively through practice if you have enough time to land the tipper or if they are too far away.

 

[hectohertz]

so i've heard that PAL marths dair is more useful for comboing (by bouncing them off the ground) than NTSC marths dair. something about dair -> fsmash being more guaranteed. why is that? is it a special property of meteors (reduced DI or extra hitstun)? or is it just that the angle it sends is better for following up?

 

[AceDudeyeah]

When being f-thrown by another Marth at 0%, with away and down DI, do you have enough frames to escape the regrab with a dash towards/away? Or is your only option buffer roll/spotdodge?

 

[Kadano]

so i've heard that PAL marths dair is more useful for comboing (by bouncing them off the ground) than NTSC marths dair. something about dair -> fsmash being more guaranteed. why is that? is it a special property of meteors (reduced DI or extra hitstun)? or is it just that the angle it sends is better for following up?

It’s just the angle. (290° vs 270°)

When being f-thrown by another Marth at 0%, with away and down DI, do you have enough frames to escape the regrab with a dash towards/away? Or is your only option buffer roll/spotdodge?

Even turning around is enough to escape it. So yes, dashing away escapes it. Not dashing towards, that puts you right in the other Marth’s grab range.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

Cool, thanks. I was thinking of a roy-zone withwith the dash through. Sorry, I forgot to ask if wavedash/jump away also work.

 

[1MachGO]

Hey @ Kadano , I think I finally have a question worthy of interest.

What is the max distance Jiggs can travel forwards/backwards with SH bair and FH bair (non-fastfalled) while still being able to pull back to her starting position?

I'm wondering if Marth can just dash forward>pivot fsmash to punish certain bair-walling maneuvers on reaction.

 

[Bones0]

Hey @ Kadano , I think I finally have a question worthy of interest.

What is the max distance Jiggs can travel forwards/backwards with SH bair and FH bair (non-fastfalled) while still being able to pull back to her starting position?

I'm wondering if Marth can just dash forward>pivot fsmash to punish certain bair-walling maneuvers on reaction.

You can test this by starting at the edge of a platform/ledge and see how far you aerial and still get a ledgecancel. Then simply compare that distance to Marth's dash+fsmash. Maybe I'm crazy, but it doesn't even seem close. I'd bet Marth can pivot tipper Puff on reaction to a whiffed aerial even if she does an immediate SH bair drifting away the entire time.

 

[1MachGO]

You can test this by starting at the edge of a platform/ledge and see how far you aerial and still get a ledgecancel. Then simply compare that distance to Marth's dash+fsmash. Maybe I'm crazy, but it doesn't even seem close. I'd bet Marth can pivot tipper Puff on reaction to a whiffed aerial even if she does an immediate SH bair drifting away the entire time.

If you're right, Puff's BnB neutral game might be incredibly unsafe vs. Marth

 

[alphabattack]

It’s just the angle. (290° vs 270°)

Kadano, I know that if you use Z for your aerials, then if you land within 7 frames, they'll L cancel, so I was wondering if you use Z for short hop double fair, even if you input the aerials as early as possible, will it still l cancel? I have been trying it out, and I am trying to get the fairs out as quickly as possible, and it seems like it is not possible to through out the second fair too early.

 

[Kadano]

Kadano, I know that if you use Z for your aerials, then if you land within 7 frames, they'll L cancel, so I was wondering if you use Z for short hop double fair, even if you input the aerials as early as possible, will it still l cancel? I have been trying it out, and I am trying to get the fairs out as quickly as possible, and it seems like it is not possible to through out the second fair too early.

That‘s an excellent question! (To those whose questions I didn’t respond to: they were too hard or would have taken too long to figure out within less than an hour. I’m only willing to do these requests for free if it’s something that catches my interest / curiosity.)

It won’t L-cancel if you are frame perfect or 2 frames away from it. It also won’t work if you hit someone or his shield. (L-cancel counter keeps running during hitlag, which is 7 frames for a fresh tipper fair.)

 

[alphabattack]

That‘s an excellent question! (To those whose questions I didn’t respond to: they were too hard or would have taken too long to figure out within less than an hour. I’m only willing to do these requests for free if it’s something that catches my interest / curiosity.)

It won’t L-cancel if you are frame perfect or 2 frames away from it. It also won’t work if you hit someone or his shield. (L-cancel counter keeps running during hitlag, which is 7 frames for a fresh tipper fair.)

Wow! A tipper fair has 7 frames of hitlag? That's a lot!

 

[Kadano]

Wow! A tipper fair has 7 frames of hitlag? That's a lot!

Relatively speaking, everything can be a lot.

…

7 frames is the default amount of hitlag for a 13 damage hitbox. Every attack that either deals 14+ damage or is electrical and deals 9+ damage does more hitlag.

 

[Mr. Bean]

I just have to say Kadano, this guide is helping me out alot

 

[EddyBearr]

What are the percents and DI options to know for Marth's up-throw to tipper forward smash against Fox and Falco?

 

[1MachGO]

@ Kadano

I am having trouble finding any information on shield SDI. Can multiple inputs of SDI be performed during shield hitlag like regular SDI? Or are there more restrictions?

 

[Kadano]

@ Kadano

I am having trouble finding any information on shield SDI. Can multiple inputs of SDI be performed during shield hitlag like regular SDI? Or are there more restrictions?

SSDI information is on page 1: http://smashboards.com/posts/15593710

What are the percents and DI options to know for Marth's up-throw to tipper forward smash against Fox and Falco?

Hmm, I won’t test this out and give numbers for just that. I will do so in a larger context, though – creating a complete flowchart for chaingrabbing and finishing on FD.

Easier said than done, though. The first obstacle is that chaingrabbing seems to work differently in PAL vs. NTSC. In NTSC, you can regrab at 0% on behind DI; in PAL you can’t (Fox lands on the ground just on the frame your grab hitbox is active). The only uthrow concerning change I know of (and could find documentation about) is the change of Fox’ weight from 75 to 73.
Throw KB is not weight-dependent, and even if it was, it would result in Fox receiving more KB in PAL and thus landing later, not earlier.
Uthrow speed is weight-dependent, but again, a lower weight results in more theoretical time advantage for Marth.

To make sure Marth’s uthrow wasn’t changed from NTSC to PAL, I imported PlFx.dat (PAL version) into my NTSC iso and tested again. Fox did land, thus uthrow isn’t guaranteed from 0%.

It seems something about Fox’ physics was changed from NTSC to PAL. Either his gravity or his top falling speed (edit: these are unchanged, so it has to be something else.) I will look into the character values with Master Hand and HxD, but maybe someone of you knows of the cause and is so kind to tell me about it? It’s really strange and shouldn’t stay undocumented.

 

[Kadano]

I think the difference is solely due to the warped animation throw point (watch frame-by-frame). It’s more than a simple delay; the apex of PAL Fox’ flying curve is considerably lower than that of NTSC Fox. I believe this is caused by the way the game applies throw momentum. I suspect this difference will be constant, ie if we say that NTSC Fox’ apex is 1 unit higher than that of PAL Fox at 0% before throw, it will stay that way even at 100%+ damage. So I can simply add “note: percentages for PAL Fox increase by 1”. (At 1% before uthrow, you can regrab PAL Fox even on full behind DI, so it seems the KBG from 1 percent difference is sufficient to remedy this “glitch”.)