Data Kadano's perfect Marth class -- advanced frame data application

[tm]

kadano, do you know the input windows for getting SH double fairs?

and anyone have any general advice on how to do them while retreating (and in general)?
it's pretty much the only tech in the game left that I can't do for the life of me (SHDL, shine grab, hell double shine grab with falco when I'm confident, near perfect ledge dashes, super low/flat ledge hop lasers with falco, shield drops easy). I been asking about this since I joined the forum.

still can't do it at all :x

I use cstick for both fairs. Just gotta move from jump button to c-stick fairly quickly (and it's easier to do facing left because your thumb doesn't have to move to the far side of the c-stick).
If you can do instant uair OoS with pikachu, you can SH double fair with Marth easily (you can also do SH fair -> uair, which is nice for crossing them up or catching them trying to jump out of shield because of how easily it comboes, but it is slightly more difficult)

 

[SpiderMad]

That’s the idea, yes. For Falcon, the control stick is read at frame 13, though, not as early as 1 or 2.


Down-B can’t be reversed in Melee, except if the subaction itself provides a turnaround (shine for example). Side-B direction depends only on whether you hit the left or the right red area in the IO maps.

Holy hell, 13? Is there a list for the other character's?

Down-b can't be reversed in Melee? Ah, well in Brawl/PM it can BESIDES ALSO being able to B-reverse it later (back to facing forward, a wavebounce)

 

[hectohertz]

@ hectohertz Yes, all of them are planned. I also have two small new techniques for Marth that help with edgeguarding that are momentum carrying related. There are so many things I’d like to explain but it takes so long to convert the concepts in my brain into videos … =/

awesome. when ppl ask me questions about melee, im usually able to find answers, but those topics are the ones i really can't find any good references on. its embarassing to not even be able to give someone a rigorous answer as to "when you need to start holding into the stage after DI" >_>

excited to see it whenever it comes out



sidenote: in the crazy waveshine on marth gif, are those shines JC shines? or is it possible to shine directly out of a run/dash

 

[AbsoluteBlack]

Kadano said on Reddit they were just run cancel shines. I think run cancel means crouching after foxtrot ends but I could be wrong.

 

[hectohertz]

Kadano said on Reddit they were just run cancel shines. I think run cancel means crouching after foxtrot ends but I could be wrong.

run-cancelling usuall means crouch after run, but i dont see any frames where he's crouching. i think he mis-spoke and meant they are just shines straight from run

 

[Kadano]

@ hectohertz @ AbsoluteBlack yeah, with run-canceled shine I meant shines done straight from run, without going into RunBrake or Crouch inbetween. Isn’t the term “run-cancel” appropriate here as well? The shine does cancel the run, similar to how jumping would have done, after all.

Edit: Also, I’m not sure whether I should publish things like this as 60fps videos on gfycat or with longer explanations and slowdown / repetitions on my Youtube channel. I thought that the option of pausing and frame advancing gfycat provides with the green dot at the right bottom corner would be enough for people to figure out exactly what I was doing, with the frame states visible, but it seems hardly anyone makes use of that.

What do you prefer? Gfycat or Youtube?

 

[MookieRah]

I think that it's better to use Gfycat for the small things rather than videos myself. Honestly I think you should do whatever is easier/quicker for you though. Keep up the awesome work though, as it's helping me and many others understand this game a lot more.

 

[hectohertz]

aan

@ hectohertz @ AbsoluteBlack yeah, with run-canceled shine I meant shines done straight from run, without going into RunBrake or Crouch inbetween. Isn’t the term “run-cancel” appropriate here as well? The shine does cancel the run, similar to how jumping would have done, after all.

Edit: Also, I’m not sure whether I should publish things like this as 60fps videos on gfycat or with longer explanations and slowdown / repetitions on my Youtube channel. I thought that the option of pausing and frame advancing gfycat provides with the green dot at the right bottom corner would be enough for people to figure out exactly what I was doing, with the frame states visible, but it seems hardly anyone makes use of that.

What do you prefer? Gfycat or Youtube?

gfycat absolutely. i love being able to frame by frame.


and run-cancelling is only confusing terminology because of this http://smashboards.com/threads/official-ask-anyone-frame-things-thread.313889/page-13#post-16236751

there's only 2 hard problems in CS: naming things, cache invalidation, and off by one errors....

 

[Acryte]

Kadano, I've messed with Mario's up-b walljump and I have a few questions.

1) Why is it possible?

2) How can it be done consistently without riding the edge upon initiating the up-b?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtLC_cYFKTs

It's super easy to do if you are riding against the wall to start the up-B, but obviously it can be done without riding the wall though it seems much harder to do. Not sure the precise mechanism. I've definitely done it on dreamland, Yoshi's, Green Greens, Stadium, etc... but how do I do it? How can it be replicated every time if I use frame advance?

==========

I've started to get better at it but it is still hard for me to consistently replicate with frame advance.

 

[BTmoney]

Is there a complete chain grab methodology written down anywhere vs. spacies or at least 1 of the chars? I'm specifically talking about the window where you should start up-tilting and afterwards, not the tricky regrabs at low percent.

I feel like there has to be one best way (and maybe 1 variation) to chain grab->combo and end the string consistently on FD.

What I'm getting at is why is it that m2k literally is the only Marth who has this down as well as she should? What's everyone else missing and how can you improve it?

 

[SpiderMad]

How accurate do you guys believe M2K's intuitions on abusing Puff's ledge fair regrab game is? He beat Hax doing just that, but I wonder about attempting it myself in tourney ... once I have the mental fortitude lol

 

[d z]

Is there a complete chain grab methodology written down anywhere vs. spacies or at least 1 of the chars? I'm specifically talking about the window where you should start up-tilting and afterwards, not the tricky regrabs at low percent.

I feel like there has to be one best way (and maybe 1 variation) to chain grab->combo and end the string consistently on FD.

What I'm getting at is why is it that m2k literally is the only Marth who has this down as well as she should? What's everyone else missing and how can you improve it?

This is the one I go off, http://smashboards.com/threads/compilation-of-matchup-guides.341532/, Kadano might have something better but in the mean time this is pretty good afaik.

 

[BTmoney]

How accurate do you guys believe M2K's intuitions on abusing Puff's ledge fair regrab game is? He beat Hax doing just that, but I wonder about attempting it myself in tourney ... once I have the mental fortitude lol

I do it all the time because I kind of main puff now. It's a free win vs. bad people and vs. people who have no idea how to play the puff MU. It's also surprisingly good when you have the lead or the other person is on tilt

It is by no means unbeatable but it is really good vs. Falcon and in general

 

[Dr4gonBlitz]

Hey can someone explain to me the Mechanics of Pivoting and how one would mechanically perform Dash > Pivot > Ftilt/ Utilt/ Fsmash/ Ect.

 

[Kadano]

What I'm getting at is why is it that m2k literally is the only Marth who has this down as well as she should? What's everyone else missing and how can you improve it?

Fox can DI in so many different ways that it’s both a lot to remember and a lot to explain / write down. To put it short, you can start uptilting at 28% after throw. Maybe 1-2 percent less.

Hey can someone explain to me the Mechanics of Pivoting and how one would mechanically perform Dash > Pivot > Ftilt/ Utilt/ Fsmash/ Ect.

Here are input-output maps for 1-frame control stick movements that might be helpful for understanding this:

Pivot attacks consist of three parts:

1. Dash: you need to smash the stick to the red zone in the left map to trigger it.

2. Pivot (smash turn): dark blue area in the left map.

3. Attack input: this is the hard part. Holding the stick within the smash turn zone for 1 frame too long without inputting the attack will cause a dash dance in that direction (not desired here). So you need to either (A) input the pivot attack at that very frame or (B) move the stick out from the blue zone and delay the attack input.

Not all attacks can be triggered with method A. Dtilt, ftilt, utilt and jab, specifically. For those, you’ll need to do method B.

If you only keep the stick within the smash turn zone for one single frame, you’ll stay within the Turn animation, which can be intercepted by every ground move except neutral-B.

By smashing the stick in one of the four smash zones in the right map and keeping it there for 4 frames or more, that smash zone will be disabled. For example, the diagonal edges of the dtilt zone will extend to the very bottom when you hold down for 4 frames.

If you want to do a pivot dtilt, the fastest reliable way to do so is to execute part 2 by using the very bottom of the blue smash turn zone. Quickly move the stick a bit downward to get out of the smash turn zone. Wait 4 frames (very short time, but not immediately) and press A.

Pivot ftilts are easier to do quickly as you don’t need to move the stick that far down. Pivot utilts are the hardest as you accidentally jump so easily.

 

[1MachGO]

Hey Kadano, do you think you could do a mini-breakdown of Marth's tech chase options vs. Fox/Falco near the ledge? Namely the following:

1. What is the furthest distance Marth can be from the ledge before its impossible to cover every option?

2. Is reacting to every option feasible or do you need to do some coverage/prediction?

3. Can dtilt cover missed tech/tech in place with a large enough window to still cover tech away/tech behind if it misses?

 

[hectohertz]

Fox can DI in so many different ways that it’s both a lot to remember and a lot to explain / write down. To put it short, you can start uptilting at 28% after throw. Maybe 1-2 percent less.


Here are input-output maps for 1-frame control stick movements that might be helpful for understanding this:

Pivot attacks consist of three parts:

1. Dash: you need to smash the stick to the red zone in the left map to trigger it.

2. Pivot (smash turn): dark blue area in the left map.

3. Attack input: this is the hard part. Holding the stick within the smash turn zone for 1 frame too long without inputting the attack will cause a dash dance in that direction (not desired here). So you need to either input the pivot attack at that very frame or move the stick out from the blue zone and delay the attack input.

Not all attacks can be triggered with method A. Dtilt, ftilt, utilt and jab, specifically. For those, you’ll need to do method B.

If you only keep the stick within the smash turn zone for one single frame, you’ll stay within the Turn animation, which can be intercepted by every ground move except neutral-B.

By smashing the stick in one of the four smash zones in the right map and keeping it there for 4 frames or more, that smash zone will be disabled. For example, the diagonal edges of the dtilt zone will extend to the very bottom when you hold down for 4 frames.

If you want to do a pivot dtilt, the fastest reliable way to do so is to execute part 2 by using the very bottom of the blue smash turn zone. Quickly move the stick a bit downward to get out of the smash turn zone. Wait 4 frames (very short time, but not immediately) and press A.

Pivot ftilts are easier to do quickly as you don’t need to move the stick that far down. Pivot utilts are the hardest as you accidentally jump so easily.

im going to read this while i practice tomorrow until i can pivot ftilt quickly.

 

[Bones0]

Hey Kadano, do you think you could do a mini-breakdown of Marth's tech chase options vs. Fox/Falco near the ledge? Namely the following:

1. What is the furthest distance Marth can be from the ledge before its impossible to cover every option?

2. Is reacting to every option feasible or do you need to do some coverage/prediction?

3. Can dtilt cover missed tech/tech in place with a large enough window to still cover tech away/tech behind if it misses?

There's way too many options to break down all of the options, and most tech chases near the ledge are completely avoided if the opponent knows how to DI for a bounce anyway (Marth might be able to dtilt bounces in some situations, however).

1. I'm not really sure what you're asking. You can cover every option from really far if you just guess correctly and pivot fsmash. If you want to do it on reaction, then it depends on your reaction time.

2. If you are near them when they initially land, you can react to everything. My normal reactions are grab TIP/stand, shield GUA, and dash grab the 4 roll options. You can obviously substitute some moves for others as long as it is just as quick or you can react fast enough (i.e. you can up-B or dtilt TIP on reaction or pivot fsmash rolls on reaction). If you aren't right next to them when they land, it can kind of blur the lines between reaction and prediction. One thing I haven't really seen that I've been working on is dashing towards a missed tech and still doing the reactionary flowchart above. Most people just try to DD outside of GUA's range when they have to dash in case of a tech roll away, but I think it's more optimal to just react out of a fox trot towards them.

3. I am pretty sure the techroll animations take way too long for you to cover TIP/MT as well as the roll. However, I think the difference is big enough that you can just dtilt twice, but idk. If you check the teching frame data thread for your opponent's character, you should be able to tell. This situation is also limited by spacing (unless their techroll is being stopped by the ledge) because some characters' rolls will go too far to be hit from a single spacing (though it should be fine vs. spacies).

 

[tm]

Pivot explanations

This is very helpful (especially about pivot tilts). For ftilts that can be angled, however, is it then impossible to do method A *untilted* ftilt while holding the control stick all the way in any given direction? You would have to partially realease the stick towards neutral position (much more difficult). Is this correct?

And I am aware that there is still the possibility of smash turn -> reset stick to neutral -> regular ftilt. Your explanation is particularly useful for dtilt though.

 

[JazzDynamite!]

@ Kadano
First off, I would like to say that this thread is an amazing resource and very inspiring. You have been a huge part in my progression as a Marth player and I cannot thank you enough for all of things you have put up here.

Secondly, I was wondering if you could potentially direct me to any resources/programs where I can learn some of your methods for testing. I would love to learn more about Melee's mechanics and maybe even provide some research like you have for other characters.

 

[hectohertz]

kadano on trying to do things out of a run cancel (specifically on trying to dash):


When you are in Run, ceasing to hold the control stick within the dash area causes you to enter RunBrake. Holding the stick down is one way to accomplish this. By holding down for at least another frame, you enter Squat (crouch animation). So a run-cancel essentially takes two frames, however while attacks can be done from Squat 1, dashing forward and back is not possible yet.

The Squat animation seems to be 7 frames long for all characters (I only confirmed this for Marth and Sheik so far though). Unless you cancel it with an attack, it will generally transition to SquatRV (standing up from crouch animation), which also takes 7 frames.

Exceptions to this rule are:
1. Holding forward starting on Squat 1-5 will trigger walking forward after SquatRV 0.
2. Holding forward starting on Squat 6-7 will trigger a dash after Squat 7.
3. Holding forward starting on SquatRV 0-6 will trigger one frame of walking forward followed by a dash.

4. Holding backward starting on Squat 6-7 will trigger one frame of Turn after Squat 7, followed by dash back.

Finally, if you press forward or backward on SquatRV 7 or later, you will do an immediate dash, but I think that’s understood. (You are in the grounded Wait animation at this point.)

What you (Seth Unterseher) dubbed “No U turn” is exception 4. I don’t think it’s better than wavedashes for long range or dashdance / foxtrot for close range as the default option. Why, you ask?

When you dash from a crouch, previous momentum is not negated. Thus, you dash backwards which much less momentum than you would if you had done a dashdance. (In a dashdance, dashing back from a dash eliminates most if notall of the forward momentum.)

For longer distances, wavedash back initiates backwards momentum as soon as on frame 4 (compared to 10 for exception 4 (1 RunBrake + 7 Squat + 1 Turn + 1 Dash). Thus, you are less mobile. The only advantage is that when starting backwards momentum, you have less lag (Landingfallspecial takes 10 frames after all). So the “No U turn” can be useful for faking an approach and then doing a quick retreating short hop bair, I suppose.

 

[Reuental]

I use cstick for both fairs. Just gotta move from jump button to c-stick fairly quickly (and it's easier to do facing left because your thumb doesn't have to move to the far side of the c-stick).
If you can do instant uair OoS with pikachu, you can SH double fair with Marth easily (you can also do SH fair -> uair, which is nice for crossing them up or catching them trying to jump out of shield because of how easily it comboes, but it is slightly more difficult)

I am a new marth player, and I just figured out you can wavedash out of a short hopped rising Fair, and you can even fast fall part of the way. I have seen no one do this, even though its obvious you can if double Fair is possible. Does the frame data work out that rising fair > fast fall > wavedash just objectively better? Seems like it could be good in some situations, the dramatic direction/speed change is super unexpected(well it was for me...). Here is a video from my phone of me trying to do it, yeah my tech skill is meh. youtube watch?v=f2GZYIl2MvA . Hope I am not breaking the rules by avoiding the linking block for new posters.

 

[Kadano]

That is well known, but rarely useful, unfortunately. =)

 

[Bones0]

I use it quite a lot. I'm waiting for the day I edgeguard a spacie side-B with rising fair, waveland off the stage, dair.

 

[Metal Gear Salad]

Hi Kadano, can you find me a gif of the longest invincible 'hax dash' (ledgegrab ledgehop waveland fast fall ledgegrab) with Marth. If it's not totally invincible, just the gif with the least amount of vulnerability please.

I'd be interested in the optimal angle for the waveland too if you have the time.

Thanks again.

edit: just realised we're talking about this already. has the above been answered?

 

[Kadano]

Hi Kadano, can you find me a gif of the longest invincible 'hax dash' (ledgegrab ledgehop waveland fast fall ledgegrab) with Marth. If it's not totally invincible, just the gif with the least amount of vulnerability please.

@ Metal Gear Salad Edit: I misunderstood what you meant with “longest”, sorry.



The optimal angle depends on your airdodge timing, and there are many different ways to execute this that are all completely intangible. I think using the 315° / 225° angles is the most consistent way.

The gif in post #2 was made with a 343° waveland.

Edit2: @ Metal Gear Salad I misunderstood what you meant with “longest”, sorry. I’m working on a proper animation right now.

 

[Metal Gear Salad]

Thanks for that, and thanks in advance!

 

[Kadano]

@ Metal Gear Salad

 

[Metal Gear Salad]

I don't think I could have asked for much more. Perfect. Thanks again.

 

[Kadano]

I don't think I could have asked for much more. Perfect. Thanks again.

In case you wonder if that’s the furthest Marth can hop onto the stage: I haven’t been able to get him any further while still keeping continuous intangibility.

Still, dropping from the ledge on the first possible frame is required to stay intangible, and that is really hard. I’ve downloaded all of TBH4‘s stream in 60 fps so I can count the frames and even during Hax’s and leffen’s ledgedashes, they’ve usually hung on the ledge for about 2-3 excess frames before they dropped.

 

[Kadano]

Has anyone of you ever been able to pull off one of these? I’ve tried somewhat often, but never even came close.

 

[Bones0]

Has anyone of you ever been able to pull of one of these? I’ve tried somewhat often, but never even came close.

Why doesn't the left-right input cause a pivot/DD? That is what you're doing right? Left for 1 frame then right on the next frame?

 

[Kadano]

Why doesn't the left-right input cause a pivot/DD? That is what you're doing right? Left for 1 frame then right on the next frame?

To quote my own reddit post:
“Moonwalking like that (one frame forward, then immediately hold backward) is extremely hard and requires very high precision. It also can’t be done from a dash dance.

It’s more feasible to do a downward half-circle or similar movement instead, even though this will cause you to lose a little bit of distance.”

I don’t know why it works like that, but I know that it does. One in about 20 attempts of mine where I try to do a moonwalk with a very rapid dash-dance like motion is successful, so I know it’s not a TAS-only-thing.

 

[Bones0]

I started out at about 2/20 and my last set of 20 I got 8. I'm just doing it from a standstill with Falcon though. Doing the motion after the WD seems much harder.

 

[hectohertz]

In case you wonder if that’s the furthest Marth can hop onto the stage: I haven’t been able to get him any further while still keeping continuous intangibility.

Still, dropping from the ledge on the first possible frame is required to stay intangible, and that is really hard. I’ve downloaded all of TBH4‘s stream in 60 fps so I can count the frames and even during Hax’s and leffen’s ledgedashes, they’ve usually hung on the ledge for about 2-3 excess frames before they dropped.

interesting. ive been practicing ledgedashes with the frame counter of the 20XX pack, and im having more trouble getting my jump to happen consistently on the first frame after i drop, than i am dropping on the first frame.

 

[BTmoney]

way too hard lol,
I do near perfect moonwalk ledge grab or babysit the ledge with a bootleg sticky walk sometimes (like how luigi's use u-tilt when wave dashing back to stall before grabbing the ledge)

it's like a version of mango's edge guarding vs peach/armada but much better with fox lol

 

[Bones0]

interesting. ive been practicing ledgedashes with the frame counter of the 20XX pack, and im having more trouble getting my jump to happen consistently on the first frame after i drop, than i am dropping on the first frame.

When you're practicing it's much easier to drop frame perfect because you are 100% sure about grabbing the ledge in the first place. In normal gameplay you usually have to react to grabbing the ledge because if you got hit instead you have to recovery quickly, so that could be a big reason they dropped a little slower. However, out of most of my smooth ledgedashes, I feel like I am in the same boat as you. I'd expect 1, sometimes 2 frames slow on the drop to avoid ever accidentally ledgejumping, but 3 seems quite high.

 

[BTmoney]

oh boy I finally figured out how to pivot fsmash consistently (the key is getting a white controller and maining fox for 2 years, switch to marth and everything becomes very easy)

ggs

edit:
@ Kadano

could you tell me the % where you can no longer get a tipper & non-tipper utilt (or walk into utilt) on Falco if he hard DI's uthrow behind you? I think it's around low 40s.

I feel like the chain grab -> juggle just kind of stops working if falco DI's your throw behind you
I poked around, watched some videos, and figured out a decent go-to method for vs. fox and I find the chain grab + utilt/uair follow ups way easier to do vs fox. I feel like I can never act soon enough, at the right percents vs. falco

 

[1MachGO]

@ Kadano

Hey Kadano, which attack has a more favorable trajectory as a finisher? The strong hitbox on Up-b or tipper fsmash?

I feel like tipper fsmash is almost always stronger in terms of knockback, but I was wondering if up-b is harder to survival DI; especially since set ups into fsmash from uair/uthrow can sometimes make the trajectory even higher than usual.

 

[Bones0]

@ Kadano

Hey Kadano, which attack has a more favorable trajectory as a finisher? The strong hitbox on Up-b or tipper fsmash?

I feel like tipper fsmash is almost always stronger in terms of knockback, but I was wondering if up-b is harder to survival DI; especially since set ups into fsmash from uair/uthrow can sometimes make the trajectory even higher than usual.

http://www.mediafire.com/view/kwbkgsdok1dekd7/SSBM_Hitboxes_(NTSC_1.0)_&_Knockback_1.5k.xlsx