K. Rool's Kremling Kutthroats: PM BKupa666 for an Invite to the New K. Rool Thread

[Dropkick JD]

You forgot K Rool's name being in the stage creator.

 

[APC99]

I'm going to say this in what I believe is the least objectionable way possible. No tears, please.

Sakurai not including K. Rool while including Dixie while simultaneously talking up how he listens to the fans and looks for unique characters would be the equivalent of a restaurant's head chef talking up its quality of service and the nuance of its food, then, instead of serving filet mignon to diners, throwing chicken nugget at their faces as hard as possible.

Of course, there's that one guy that is catching chicken nuggets with his mouth and clapping for an encore.

 

[Deleted member]

Well, let's end this debate quickly.

King K. Rool has a trophy in Melee.

He also has a trophy and a sticker in Brawl. KROOL is one of the random names for a stage.

Dixie also had a trophy in Melee.

As well as a trophy and a sticker in Brawl.

]

By comparison, Cranky's also had a trophy and a sticker, and is a stage cameo in Jungle Japes and, technically, 75m.

Thanks for straightening that out. I was to be fair, also counting the kremlings stuff.

That is a very apt chef comparison by the way, @ BKupa666

 

[BKupa666]

@ APC99 You could also count K. Rool's theme not only being in the game, but being prominent in the game (serving as the lead-up music to the SSE's Dark Bowser fight, serving as the Credits music for both Kongs), as well as maybe Diddy having a pink shirt and cap.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I'm going to say this in what I believe is the least objectionable way possible. No tears, please.

Sakurai not including K. Rool while including Dixie while simultaneously talking up how he listens to the fans and looks for unique characters would be the equivalent of a restaurant's head chef talking up its quality of service and the nuance of its food, then, instead of serving filet mignon to diners, throwing single chicken nuggets at their faces as hard as possible.

I don't think Dixie Kong will be that horrible like you're making it out the be.

 

[APC99]

@ APC99 You could also count K. Rool's theme not only being in the game, but being prominent in the game (serving as the lead-up music to the SSE's Dark Bowser fight, serving as the Credits music for both Kongs), as well as maybe Diddy having a pink shirt and cap.

True. That does add to each character, and equals them out with Cranky. Maybe I'll post a more in-depth exploration of K. Rool, Dixie and Cranky's representation in the Smash Bros. series, as well as their own series as well.

 

[Deleted member]

Dixie getting in alone is not what's being discussed, it's Dixie getting in over K. Rool. Although it's not like the argument applies only to Dixie, K. Rool being snubbed for any other DK newcomer is just as strange. It breaks the trio tradition of protagonist, sidekick, villain and it foregoes all of the evidence that K. Rool has earned his place in the game. Of course that's a simplification, but I just wanted to explain how Kutthroats don't hate Dixie necessarily, they generally are huge fans of the Donkey Kong Country games too, but we obviously want and believe in K. Rool chances above anyone else from DK.

 

[BKupa666]

I don't think Dixie Kong will be that horrible like you're making it out the be.

I don't think there are that many newcomers who would be legitimately horrible in-game (only Mii off the top of my head). Comparatively, though, I think K. Rool is by far the better option between the two if it's down to one or the other.

 

[APC99]

I don't think there are that many newcomers who would be legitimately horrible in-game (only Mii off the top of my head). Comparatively, though, I think K. Rool is by far the better option between the two if it's down to one or the other.

Honestly, I can't think of a single newcomer I truly would hate. The only reason I'd hate on them is if they were to get in over, say, K. Rool, Ridley or Mewtwo. If my favorites get in, I really won't mind the others, as an example Mega Man and Little Mac already make up for Rosalina (who's basically in over Toad, and at least her unique moveset makes up for a bit of it). I mean, I won't certainly MAIN Mii, Bowser Junior or Cranky Kong (as examples), but if K. Rool and some others make it in, I'll certainly welcome them in, knowing I got my wishes.

I can understand hating 4th parties though. I think they're a special kind of exception. Isn't that right, Goku?

 

[Deleted member]

It breaks the trio tradition of protagonist, sidekick, villain

....when was this "tradition" established?

Pretty sure the only time this happened was Mario/Luigi/Bowser, with Peach right at Bowser's heels.

If data from Melee's development is anything to go by, we had Young Link before Ganondorf.
Meta Knight and Dedede don't really follow the "sidekick" and "villain" niches.
Wolf isn't really a villain; he's an anti-hero.
Pokémon.
etc.

 

[Deleted member]

....when was this "tradition" established?

Pretty sure the only time this happened was Mario/Luigi/Bowser, with Peach right at Bowser's heels.

If data from Melee's development is anything to go by, we had Young Link before Ganondorf.
Meta Knight and Dedede don't really follow the "sidekick" and "villain" niches.
Wolf isn't really a villain; he's an anti-hero.
Pokémon.
etc.

Well it's opinion on what is a villain, but Ganondorf appeared alongside Zelda and Young Link, considering both Ganondorf and YL are clones it's hard to say which took preference in development, no matter which was technically made first. I don't think such an obvious clone as YL should really count as the third rep in the series, but that's my point-of-view.

Meta Knight is a rival, sure, "sidekick" can just mean another protagonist or something along those lines. Either way, Dedede was added third.

Wolf is a villain in StarFox 64. I don't know what he does later in the series, but there are no characters in StarFox who serve as a villain who everyone knows anyway. They can't use Andross, after all, Wolf is the villain rep, even if he's more of a rival in later games.

Pokemon added Mewtwo in Melee, who was an original moveset and based on the movie, villain Mewtwo. That game had Pichu but he was a clone.

It's not an air-tight pattern but it mostly follows.You're welcome to argue its flaws.

 

[BKupa666]

Not that I'm a huge advocate of that pattern, but I do find all the nitpicking of how there are no real true villains in Smash aside from Bowser and Ganondorf to be just that...nitpicking. Just stick the term 'antagonist' in place of 'villain' and that pattern is upheld.

 

[Deleted member]

Outside of 64, Wolf has gone on to the Neutral category of the Character Alignment Algorithm.
He sees Fox as a rival, but he never hounded him down and tried to kill him; he did that in 64 because Andross paid him and his crew to do the job.

In fact, Wolf actually assisted Fox in taking down the Aparoids and the Anglars in Assault/Command, respectively and worked to clear his and his teammates' names.

Definitely not a villain.

As for Dedede, he hasn't been a villain (outside of retellings of the original game) since his debut. He's typically been the victim of poor communication (doing something good that's being mistaken for something bad) or possessed.

I guess Revenge of the King in Super Star Ultra could be seen in a villainous light, but that borders more on a challenge based on rivalry.

Not that I'm a huge advocate of that pattern, but I do find all the nitpicking of how there are no real true villains in Smash aside from Bowser and Ganondorf to be just that...nitpicking. Just stick the term 'antagonist' in place of 'villain' and that pattern is upheld.

Except by Meta Knight and Dedede, who both fit the category.

 

[Deleted member]

That's the reason I didn't use antagonist, though it raises less red flags than villain I suppose.

I simply think if a character was at one point a villain, Smash Bros is meant to represent the entirety of that character, not just a later game. When I think of Wolf, I think villain, and I'm sure the same is true for most Smash players. Dedede is not a menacing villain, but in the first game he is definitively so. So while I understand and see the flaw in my own argument, I don't think it disproves the pattern. I also don't believe it is followed by Sakurai in a formulaic pattern, just common sense. You want an antagonistic character to level out a trio of characters, so that in fights you have a dynamic to play off. In a game all about fighting, you need some villains to fill those very important archetypes just as much as protagonists.

 

[BowserK.Rool]

 

[Xzsmmc]

I think what bothers me most is that if K. Rool is not playable, we'll probably never know why. Sakurai definitely knows he exists, and he must also know of his insane popularity. What reason would he have to leave out the kremling king? It's already been established that 'relevance' doesn't mean a thing. Would he be considered not 'unique' enough? Because if he's not considered that, yet someone like Chrom is, I may just buy into that crackpot theory that Nintendo is trying to bury him.

 

[BowserK.Rool]

I think what bothers me most is that if K. Rool is not playable, we'll probably never know why. Sakurai definitely knows he exists, and he must also know of his insane popularity. What reason would he have to leave out the kremling king? It's already been established that 'relevance' doesn't mean a thing. Would he be considered not 'unique' enough? Because if he's not considered that, yet someone like Chrom is, I may just buy into that crackpot theory that Nintendo is trying to bury him.

Luckily by far, I think it's safe to say that that's not the case. He's still been in some games even after rare left nintendo and was even referenced in the recent dkc games, I think the chances look even higher for the kremling king to finally make his debut in an ssb game.

 

[Dropkick JD]

I can't wait for the day I do go onto Super Smash, and I see it. "KING K ROOL HAS JOINED THE BATTLE"

 

[BowserK.Rool]

Same here .

 

[BKupa666]

I do know that, if/when it happens, there's gonna be a lot of listening to the Gangplank Galleon theme on my end.

Here's a new remix I don't think has been posted in this thread yet. It's got a more orchestral feel toward the beginning, then leads into the standard hard rock goodness.

 

[mynameisBlade]

If we do not get ANY DK VILLAIN in this game...then Sakurai is just screwing with the pattern that DOES exist coincidentally or not..it is still there.

BASIC FORMULA: (how Sakurai has been doing it all along, SEEMINGLY)

1. Main character or most recognizable of the franchise for top-notch representation. (Mario, DK, Link, Samus, Pikachu, Fox, Kirby, etc.)

2. Sidekick character or next most obvious/famous "non-evil rival" of the "WHOLE" franchise, not just a single game, (cough Wolf) to add to rep. (Luigi, Jigglypuff, Falco, Zelda, MetaKnight etc.)

3. Villain in most cases and/or neutral character that is if anything MUCH MORE EVIL than good. (Bowser, Ganondorf, King DDD, Wolf, Mewtwo, etc.)

4. Supportive characters consisting, in Brawl, to be Clones/Semi-Clones, and moving on to SSB4, supportive Newcomer! (Young Link/Toon Link, Peach, Pichu, etc.)

In most of the franchise cases this rule has been coming into play regardless of what anyone thinks. Its there. Sakurai knows what he is doing. He wont leave someone out due to a dumb reason. If he leaves the KING out, then I suppose he had good reason to OR Nintendo is ..really done with him...

HAIL TO THE KING!!!!!

 

[Pacack]

If we do not get ANY DK VILLAIN in this game...then Sakurai is just screwing with the pattern that DOES exist coincidentally or not..it is still there.

BASIC FORMULA: (how Sakurai has been doing it all along, SEEMINGLY)

1. Main character or most recognizable of the franchise for top-notch representation. (Mario, DK, Link, Samus, Pikachu, Fox, Kirby, etc.)

2. Sidekick character or next most obvious/famous "non-evil rival" of the "WHOLE" franchise, not just a single game, (cough Wolf) to add to rep. (Luigi, Jigglypuff, Falco, Zelda, MetaKnight etc.)

3. Villain in most cases and/or neutral character that is if anything MUCH MORE EVIL than good. (Bowser, Ganondorf, King DDD, Wolf, Mewtwo, etc.)

4. Supportive characters consisting, in Brawl, to be Clones/Semi-Clones, and moving on to SSB4, supportive Newcomer! (Young Link/Toon Link, Peach, Pichu, etc.)

In most of the franchise cases this rule has been coming into play regardless of what anyone thinks. Its there. Sakurai knows what he is doing. He wont leave someone out due to a dumb reason. If he leaves the KING out, then I suppose he had good reason to OR Nintendo is ..really done with him...

HAIL TO THE KING!!!!!

...Meta Knight is no way more obvious or famous than Dedede.

 

[mynameisBlade]

...Meta Knight is no way more obvious or famous than Dedede.

But Metaknight was revealed 2nd nonetheless..

 

[Welshy91]

I find playing Tropical Freeze both sates my insatiable hunger for SSB4 and makes me want it even more at the same time.

 

[Pacack]

But Metaknight was revealed 2nd nonetheless..

But he doesn't fit your criteria...and King Dedede was considered for both 64 and Melee while Meta Knight was not...I'd consider the Kirby series to be a mere coincidence.

 

[Deleted member]

That's the reason I didn't use antagonist, though it raises less red flags than villain I suppose.

I simply think if a character was at one point a villain, Smash Bros is meant to represent the entirety of that character, not just a later game. When I think of Wolf, I think villain, and I'm sure the same is true for most Smash players. Dedede is not a menacing villain, but in the first game he is definitively so. So while I understand and see the flaw in my own argument, I don't think it disproves the pattern. I also don't believe it is followed by Sakurai in a formulaic pattern, just common sense. You want an antagonistic character to level out a trio of characters, so that in fights you have a dynamic to play off. In a game all about fighting, you need some villains to fill those very important archetypes just as much as protagonists.

The big part of why I don't really support this theory is because of a certain space dragon.
You and I both agree that he would be the next Metroid character, right? Problem is....should the theory be accurate, we would have to get somebody like Anthony Higgs or Rundas first, since Zero Suit Samus wouldn't really be counted.

 

[FalKoopa]

...Meta Knight is no way more obvious or famous than Dedede.

Actually, Chrono stated in his Character Analysis that Meta Knight had surpassed King Dedede in terms of requests for Brawl, which is why he was shown off second.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I've been thinking...

I want this proven wrong but...

We haven't seen K.Rool or the Kremlings since the whole fiasco with Microsoft and the pulling down of the DKC virtual console titles...

What if they really aren't using him because of Microsoft?

 

[BKupa666]

I've been thinking...

I want this proven wrong but...

We haven't seen K.Rool or the Kremlings since the whole fiasco with Microsoft and the pulling down of the DKC virtual console titles...

What if they really aren't using him because of Microsoft?

I've read that the possible/probable explanation for the original trilogy being taken down is the presence of Rare logos in the game, as well as a number of Rare-related cameos (Killer Instinct and Sabrewulf paraphernalia in Cranky's Cabin/Monkey Museum). So, no, I don't believe that's a cause for concern for the King.

 

[Deleted member]

I've been thinking...

I want this proven wrong but...

We haven't seen K.Rool or the Kremlings since the whole fiasco with Microsoft and the pulling down of the DKC virtual console titles...

What if they really aren't using him because of Microsoft?

I've literally had this thought a few weeks ago.
It's not a pleasant one. Though I felt better once I saw that K. Rool easter egg in Tropical Freeze.

 

[BowserK.Rool]

I do know that, if/when it happens, there's gonna be a lot of listening to the Gangplank Galleon theme on my end.

Here's a new remix I don't think has been posted in this thread yet. It's got a more orchestral feel toward the beginning, then leads into the standard hard rock goodness.

That reminds me, do you think there will be more than 2 or 3 DK stages in the game? I've noticed they've made a bunch from the mario and zelda series in brawl. What if they were to add K. Rool's stages from DKC2 and DKC3 along with a remix theme for them as well? The pirate and mad scientist themes would sound pretty badass in metal if you ask me.

 

[Arcanir]

The sad thing is I can remember exactly where most of those clips were used, I really must've played that game out as a kid.

I've been thinking...

I want this proven wrong but...

We haven't seen K.Rool or the Kremlings since the whole fiasco with Microsoft and the pulling down of the DKC virtual console titles...

What if they really aren't using him because of Microsoft?

I can understand the worry, but I can't see King K. Rool being subject to that while Funky and Dixie aren't. Granted, they are Kongs, but they're still characters made by Rare and thus would have to deal with the same issues the Kremlings would I'd guess.

 

[Dropkick JD]

Reminder that I really hate Microsoft for buying AND killing Rare.

Yeah, Nuts And Bolts was such a great idea.

 

[Deleted member]

The sad thing is I can remember exactly where most of those clips were used, I really must've played that game out as a kid.


I can understand the worry, but I can't see King K. Rool being subject to that while Funky and Dixie aren't. Granted, they are Kongs, but they're still characters made by Rare and thus would have to deal with the same issues the Kremlings would I'd guess.

To be fair, those two were made for DK.
K. Rool and the Kremlings were made for Battletoads and became DK characters instead.

 

[Wegenbarth]

Funny enough that I know the guy who makes them in another forum which I visit daily. His name is also King K Rool there . For example the pciture with Rool and Rosalina... well he made it because of a certain struggle with another user who is a Rosalina supporter.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

...Meta Knight is no way more obvious or famous than Dedede.

Meta Knight was on an all-time high during pre-Brawl, having had major roles in games after Melee like Nightmare in Dreamland, Amazing Mirror and Squeak Squad. He was being used a lot, so he ended up being a crazy popular choice for Smash. Plus, he's simply better trailer material than Dedede, especially given Halberd's vital role in SSE. Today he has sunk beneath Dedede though, which is fine, Dedede is the more important character after all.

The big part of why I don't really support this theory is because of a certain space dragon.
You and I both agree that he would be the next Metroid character, right? Problem is....should the theory be accurate, we would have to get somebody like Anthony Higgs or Rundas first, since Zero Suit Samus wouldn't really be counted.

Considering Sakurai counts ZSS as an individual character, it could very well mean that he wanted to get another friendly face from Metroid in Smash before Ridley. I mean, Metroid is a hard franchise to put into a pattern along with the other franchises since it's so different, it doesn't have any stable supporting characters or sidekicks, the majority of the time it's just Samus vs The World (the exception being Other M of course, where all the other guys die anyways, except Anthony who's written out of the plot halfway through.) If we're following the pattern it might as well just be limited to another friendly/playable character, and ZSS fits that, even if it is just Samus. This evokes a problem with the pattern in regards to Zelda though, where both Sheik and Zelda were added before Ganondorf, and Ganondorf was lucky to even make it in Melee as is.

 

[BowserK.Rool]

Reminder that I really hate Microsoft for buying AND killing Rare.

Yeah, Nuts And Bolts was such a great idea.

Which is one of the reasons I hate Microsoft.

Funny enough that I know the guy who makes themn
in another forum which I visit daily. His name is also King K Rool there . For example the pciture with Rool and Rosalina... well he made it because of a certain struggle with another user who is a Rosalina supporter.

Yup, I know who you mean, I found some of these on deviantart from him.

 

[Deleted member]

The big part of why I don't really support this theory is because of a certain space dragon.
You and I both agree that he would be the next Metroid character, right? Problem is....should the theory be accurate, we would have to get somebody like Anthony Higgs or Rundas first, since Zero Suit Samus wouldn't really be counted.

That's a very good point. The way I think of it, an original moveset is most important when it comes to this pattern, so while ZSS is the same character, she was a second unique Metroid character. This is basically taking into account the effort it takes to make a set for the series, so while ZSS is just Samus, she is technically a protagonist and had quite a bit of work put into her set. There's also the fact that Metroid only has Samus as a main character and no other sidekick, rival or anything else to take that second place as is suggested by the theory. It's a similar case with Kirby and StarFox, but ultimately the third character added is an antagonist of some kind. It's not the strongest theory, but it stands up to scrutiny pretty well.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

....when was this "tradition" established?

Pretty sure the only time this happened was Mario/Luigi/Bowser, with Peach right at Bowser's heels.

If data from Melee's development is anything to go by, we had Young Link before Ganondorf.

Where is the source for this data?

I've read that the possible/probable explanation for the original trilogy being taken down is the presence of Rare logos in the game, as well as a number of Rare-related cameos (Killer Instinct and Sabrewulf paraphernalia in Cranky's Cabin/Monkey Museum). So, no, I don't believe that's a cause for concern for the King.

Wasn't K.Rool in Super Sluggers?

 

[Snagrio]

Microsoft (thankfully) doesn't own K. Rool and co. They were in several Mario sports titles after the terrible buyout event as an example of this, so there shouldn't be a problem having K. Rool in the roster.