K. Rool's Kremling Kutthroats: PM BKupa666 for an Invite to the New K. Rool Thread

[Pakky]

I don't have a problem with Dixie getting in, but if she gets in BEFORE K. Rool, that would just be stupid.

Which seeing how Sakurai just LOVES sidekicks, I fear for the King now.

 

[Deleted member]

However this has nothing to do with King K Rool, wouldn't want another infraction placed against me, even though many others have gotten into page long discussions about topics that have nothing to do with K Rool and were not reprimanded.

This sad but likely because *looks at the disgusting amount of clones in the roster* Sakurai likes to take the easy route sometimes and give nonsensical reasons for his methods.

"Disgusting amount of clones"
3 alts promoted to separated clones late in development, 2 DLC semi-clones PEOPLE WANTED BACK, 2 semi-clones that were fan favorites since Melee and are major characters within their series, one semi-clone that was a fan favorite since Brawl, and Luigi.

Is adding another semi-clone that people want back (Wolf) and an assumed (there's no way of knowing how she'd turn out) semi-clone that was supposed to be in Brawl and is a big fan request, albeit not quite as big as K. Rool (Dixie) really that terrible and nonsensical?

 

[Pakky]

"Disgusting amount of clones"
3 alts promoted to separated clones late in development, 2 DLC semi-clones PEOPLE WANTED BACK, 2 semi-clones that were fan favorites since Melee and are major characters within their series, one semi-clone that was a fan favorite since Brawl, and Luigi.

Is adding another semi-clone that people want back (Wolf) and an assumed (there's no way of knowing how she'd turn out) semi-clone that was supposed to be in Brawl and is a big fan request, albeit not quite as big as K. Rool (Dixie) really that terrible and nonsensical?

I'm not getting into this with you, I said what I said what you think of it matters little. But this is off topic back to K Rool.

 

[Deleted member]

If you're going to be like that, then what you have to say matters little to me.
*Ignored*

 

[Goodstyle_4]

"I don’t have any character in particular. However, this time around I do favor the heavy characters more."

- Sakurai

I think this bodes well for us.

 

[Deleted member]

"I don’t have any character in particular. However, this time around I do favor the heavy characters more."

- Sakurai

I think this bodes well for us.

This is an old quote, but some of us still look on it with hope. The quicker this ballot ends, the better. Either he's in and we celebrate or he's not and we move on.

 

[Senselessbreak]

As much as I want K Rool, I would be happy if we got Dixie.

 

[Deleted member]

Also I seriously hope that is not the case @GoldenYuiitusin otherwise this entire campaign would be for absolutely nothing if Sakurai arbitrarily made up his mind on K. Rool from the get go.

It wouldn't be that he made up his mind about K. Rool.

It's more like with Melee where Sakurai didn't want to include Wario after including both Bowser and Peach as new fighters (before last minute clones came into the picture), but wasn't "set" on Wario's exclusion. He was just "set" on Bowser's and Peach's inclusion to where he would save Wario for next time.
In this hypothetical case with Dixie and K. Rool, it's the same thing. Sakurai's "set" on Dixie, especially considering she was meant for Brawl (first as Diddy's tag-partner, then presumably as a last-minute standalone character based on data), not "set" on excluding K. Rool. He just doesn't want to have both added at the same time like what most fans (including myself) feel should happen.

 

[Deleted member]

It seems like such a cheap compromise to me. "At least you got a DK rep" when being a DK rep is only one of many points in K. Rool's favor. I'd be SUPER STOKED, now, if Dixie was preballot and K. Rool was ballot DLC, bringing our DK reps up to 4 and having all the essentials (Donkey, Diddy, Dixie, Rool) which would be best case scenario.

But I'm going to be sad either way if K. Rool doesn't make it in. Dixie or no.

It wouldn't be that he made up his mind about K. Rool.

It's more like with Melee where Sakurai didn't want to include Wario after including both Bowser and Peach as new fighters (before last minute clones came into the picture), but wasn't "set" on Wario's exclusion. He was just "set" on Bowser's and Peach's inclusion to where he would save Wario for next time.
In this hypothetical case with Dixie and K. Rool, it's the same thing. Sakurai's "set" on Dixie, especially considering she was meant for Brawl (first as Diddy's tag-partner, then presumably as a last-minute standalone character based on data), not "set" on excluding K. Rool. He just doesn't want to have both added at the same time like what most fans (including myself) feel should happen.

I hope that, if you're right, that just means K. Rool didn't make it in preballot but still has a chance to come in from the ballot, and that this Mii outfit isn't a consolation prize.

 

[King_K_Rules]

I want K. Rool, not DK rep.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I want K. Rool, not DK rep.

But DK Rep is such a good karakter...

 

[Deleted member]

I hope that, if you're right, that just means K. Rool didn't make it in preballot but still has a chance to come in from the ballot, and that this Mii outfit isn't a consolation prize.

I would hope this is the case too.
However, I'm not so optimistic about it. Namely for the reason that I don't feel it's likely for a series to receive more than one DLC.
There isn't any established "rule" about it, but it's how I'll feel until it happens.

 

[InASnowBoundLand]

Dixie has always been my number 2. I think she makes more sense than some characters chosen for Smash bros Wii U /3DS and even Brawl.


Nevertheless, Sakurai/Nintendo would deserve contempt if Dixie is included -- and K. Rool is not -- because Sakurai was "set" on her first (Why wasn't she in this game in the first place?) despite fans clearly favoring K. Rool. Their popularity is not even close. And unlike some other characters like Inkling or Daisy/Waluigi, you can't reasonably argue that there is a hidden casual voting base for her that would be making K. Rool's results and her results any closer than what the fan polls are suggesting.

Ignoring the basically unambiguous front-runner for someone that has barely made a blip would be an unfortunate sign that Sakurai is more interested in his tastes above all else.

 

[Briokinho]

Ignoring the basically unambiguous front-runner for someone that has barely made a blip would be an unfortunate sign that Sakurai is more interested in his tastes above all else.

Sakurai already proved that it IS about his personal taste time and again. Let's just hope it doesn't happen this time.

 

[Deleted member]

There is precedence for the more "popular" character to be beaten out by someone else, mind you.

Ganon(dorf) trounced any other Zelda character in votes for the poll Sakurai hosted for Melee.
We didn't get Ganondorf until last minute clones were included, at which he was reportedly "lucky" to get in as such due to his similar build to C. Falcon.
Zelda, Sheik (together), and even Young Link (most likely was decided as a clone before Ganondorf was) got in first.

Likewise, when it came to "Famicom" characters, Sukapon was the top pick on the same poll. The Ice Climbers were included in Melee instead of him.

 

[BKupa666]

The "Dixie by default" assumption every time there are more or unknown characters feels like so much sizzle and no steak after over two years of falling flat. At this point, the talking point is going to continue until she gets in independently of Brawl data or Tropical Freeze.

And yeah, when there are multiple instances in every game of two characters being added from the same franchise, it would be arbitrary for Sakurai to suddenly not want it to happen yet again for DK with DLC. If anything, having two characters who can split a trailer and be sold as a bundle would be an incentive to choose whichever of the two weren't chosen first.

 

[Pakky]

Yeah I'm sorry Dixie will be a clone given Sakurai's track record with characters that have an once of resemblance to one another, this is not up for debate. Also if someone says "You're not creative ehehaehe" please just don't talk to me.

 

[Senselessbreak]

I want K Rool or Dixie. But I'd be upset if we got Cranky or Funky Kong.

So in a way its not about getting just a DK rep.....but the RIGHT DK rep.

 

[Pakky]

I want K Rool or Dixie. But I'd be upset if we got Cranky or Funky Kong.

So in a way its not about getting just a DK rep.....but the RIGHT DK rep.

Would Rambi be bad? I mean If we got Rool And Rambi I gotta say i wouldn't be mad.

 

[JaidynReiman]

It wouldn't be that he made up his mind about K. Rool.

It's more like with Melee where Sakurai didn't want to include Wario after including both Bowser and Peach as new fighters (before last minute clones came into the picture), but wasn't "set" on Wario's exclusion. He was just "set" on Bowser's and Peach's inclusion to where he would save Wario for next time.
In this hypothetical case with Dixie and K. Rool, it's the same thing. Sakurai's "set" on Dixie, especially considering she was meant for Brawl (first as Diddy's tag-partner, then presumably as a last-minute standalone character based on data), not "set" on excluding K. Rool. He just doesn't want to have both added at the same time like what most fans (including myself) feel should happen.

This is a possibility, but I'm not seeing it. Personally I think Sakurai would probably rather have K. Rool than Dixie, because he'd see more potential in him than in her. I cannot see him being "set" in Dixie, especially after Brawl where he liked the idea of Diddy and Dixie together more than them being apart, which is why he attempted that, and when he couldn't make it work, Diddy just made it solo and Dixie was left by the wayside.

Yeah I'm sorry Dixie will be a clone given Sakurai's track record with characters that have an once of resemblance to one another, this is not up for debate. Also if someone says "You're not creative ehehaehe" please just don't talk to me.

I don't think she'd be a direct clone, but she'd most likely be far more cloney than most people think. She COULD be original, but she shares so many abilities with DK and Diddy, that'd probably be what she was, with her only unique thing being her ponytail whirl. I don't see it as "she'll ONLY" be a clone, but that's the most likely scenario I see.



Personally, I think K. Rool and Dixie together are more likely than JUST Dixie.

 

[CelerinaTheJackrabbit]

Personally, while I most certainly would favor someone brand new, Dixie would not be that bad a character either.

It's more so the idea that I don't want more Dark Pits. In fact, most of the clones in general, except the FE characters, really do bother me on one simple note. They DO have things from their games that could be repped in their moveset. Such as Dark Pit being able to use other weapons besides just variations of what Pit has. Or Toon Link using some Wind Waker exclusive items, such as the Grappling Hook, Deku Leaf or Skullhammer.

Dixie sort've falls into that boat of 'Well she certainly COULD be unique, but I can't help but just see her as Diddy Ver. 2.0.' Granted, I see her somewhat more as a 'Diddy mixed with DK' as well. Such as her recovery being much like DK's, and her grab working like the big ape's as well. Then naturally splashing in some Diddy Moves, potentially with a new move here and there... and presto. Dixie.

K.Rool, naturally, has so much that makes him much more appealing to me. A heavy-weight with superb ranged options, potentially able to do set-ups like Snake and create such intricate K.O. options.

Naturally I would prefer him the Krocodile much more, but again... I'm for several dozen characters. K.Rool is in the lead, naturally, alongside Paper Mario and Marshal. Everyone else would be completely awesome too. Which is somewhat a relieving thing for me, so no matter who we get, I'll be pleased.

Unless we seriously do somehow get Goku or Shrek. Then I'm going to just quietly set my controller down, bike up a mountain, and stare off into the sunset before proclaiming 'Why.'

 

[Joeyd123]

Sakurai already proved that it IS about his personal taste time and again. Let's just hope it doesn't happen this time.

How can you say THIS?? You don't feel the need for so many Fire Emblem and Kid Icarus characters?

 

[JaidynReiman]

Personally, while I most certainly would favor someone brand new, Dixie would not be that bad a character either.

It's more so the idea that I don't want more Dark Pits. In fact, most of the clones in general, except the FE characters, really do bother me on one simple note. They DO have things from their games that could be repped in their moveset. Such as Dark Pit being able to use other weapons besides just variations of what Pit has. Or Toon Link using some Wind Waker exclusive items, such as the Grappling Hook, Deku Leaf or Skullhammer.

Dixie sort've falls into that boat of 'Well she certainly COULD be unique, but I can't help but just see her as Diddy Ver. 2.0.' Granted, I see her somewhat more as a 'Diddy mixed with DK' as well. Such as her recovery being much like DK's, and her grab working like the big ape's as well. Then naturally splashing in some Diddy Moves, potentially with a new move here and there... and presto. Dixie.

K.Rool, naturally, has so much that makes him much more appealing to me. A heavy-weight with superb ranged options, potentially able to do set-ups like Snake and create such intricate K.O. options.

Naturally I would prefer him the Krocodile much more, but again... I'm for several dozen characters. K.Rool is in the lead, naturally, alongside Paper Mario and Marshal. Everyone else would be completely awesome too. Which is somewhat a relieving thing for me, so no matter who we get, I'll be pleased.

Unless we seriously do somehow get Goku or Shrek. Then I'm going to just quietly set my controller down, bike up a mountain, and stare off into the sunset before proclaiming 'Why.'

I think Dixie would be a cross between DK and Diddy, with her Up Special being her TF ponytail whirl, and maybe having her full/classic ponytail whirl replace the Side Special.

 

[Senselessbreak]

Would Rambi be bad? I mean If we got Rool And Rambi I gotta say i wouldn't be mad.

Ive always felt Rambi would be the perfect assist trophy. Its sad DKC has 0 ATs, when it has such a large pool of kongs and animals to use.

 

[Joeyd123]

Unless we seriously do somehow get Goku or Shrek. Then I'm going to just quietly set my controller down, bike up a mountain, and stare off into the sunset before proclaiming 'Why.'

Shrek is love, Shrek is life

 

[CelerinaTheJackrabbit]

I think Dixie would be a cross between DK and Diddy, with her Up Special being her TF ponytail whirl, and maybe having her full/classic ponytail whirl replace the Side Special.

Something like that, yeah. Giving her a good sort've mixture of DK and Diddy.

 

[Pakky]

I don't think she'd be a direct clone, but she'd most likely be far more cloney than most people think. She COULD be original, but she shares so many abilities with DK and Diddy, that'd probably be what she was, with her only unique thing being her ponytail whirl. I don't see it as "she'll ONLY" be a clone, but that's the most likely scenario I see.



Personally, I think K. Rool and Dixie together are more likely than JUST Dixie.

To be honest I have no faith in Sakurai after Dark pit Dr.Mario, and sword Waifu. Golf clap for Lucas and Roy thought because they're pretty far from from being clones, but the three I mentioned are not only clones be in some respects are worse than the originals. I don't even want Dixie at times because if she's more like Dark Pit and less like Lucas I'm not going to buy her. That's why I want K Rool so bad as well because he can't be skimmed on. No, he has to be original.

 

[CelerinaTheJackrabbit]

To be honest I have no faith in Sakurai after Dark pit Dr.Mario, and sword Waifu. Golf clap for Lucas and Roy thought because they're pretty far from from being clones, but the three I mentioned are not only clones be in some respects are worse than the originals. I don't even want Dixie at times because if she's more like Dark Pit and less like Lucas I'm not going to buy her. That's why I want K Rool so bad as well because he can't be skimmed on. No, he has to be original.

'But K.Rool will clearly be just some Bowser clone.'
-Some Bloke who's never heard of K.Rool.

Really my only reason to prefer him as well. K.Rool needs to be original. Sure, he can do some of the things other characters do similarly. Like how Falco and Sonic share the same FAir.

I can really see K.Rool doing Dedede's Nair, and Bowser and Charizard's Fair.

 

[AncientTobacco]

There is precedence for the more "popular" character to be beaten out by someone else, mind you.

Ganon(dorf) trounced any other Zelda character in votes for the poll Sakurai hosted for Melee.
We didn't get Ganondorf until last minute clones were included, at which he was reportedly "lucky" to get in as such due to his similar build to C. Falcon.
Zelda, Sheik (together), and even Young Link (most likely was decided as a clone before Ganondorf was) got in first.

Likewise, when it came to "Famicom" characters, Sukapon was the top pick on the same poll. The Ice Climbers were included in Melee instead of him.

That's true, but you have to keep in mind that the situation is different this time around.

The polls hosted for other games in the franchise were just rough indicators for Sakurai, and, AFAIK, never made any promises unlike the Ballot. This is also DLC, which means "more popularity = more sales".

To be honest I have no faith in Sakurai after Dark pit Dr.Mario, and sword Waifu. Golf clap for Lucas and Roy thought because they're pretty far from from being clones, but the three I mentioned are not only clones be in some respects are worse than the originals. I don't even want Dixie at times because if she's more like Dark Pit and less like Lucas I'm not going to buy her. That's why I want K Rool so bad as well because he can't be skimmed on. No, he has to be original.

Oh for god's sake.

http://www.sourcegaming.info/2015/08/01/smash-clones/

Read it.

 

[Sidboylol]

Look what i made for the fans and the this:
https://miiverse.nintendo.net/posts/AYQHAAABAAAEVHhm85akLA

 

[Sir Gengar de Èctoplasma]

Look what i made for the fans and the this:
https://miiverse.nintendo.net/posts/AYQHAAABAAAEVHhm85akLA

I voted for K. Rool. Where's my pizza?

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

To be honest I have no faith in Sakurai after Dark pit Dr.Mario, and sword Waifu. Golf clap for Lucas and Roy thought because they're pretty far from from being clones, but the three I mentioned are not only clones be in some respects are worse than the originals. I don't even want Dixie at times because if she's more like Dark Pit and less like Lucas I'm not going to buy her. That's why I want K Rool so bad as well because he can't be skimmed on. No, he has to be original.

They could easily just take Bowser change his up smash, down smash, down air, neutral special, up special and final smash, and boom, you have King K. Rool. I'm pretty sure Sakurai would see the potential of a character who fights with their hair.

 

[Llort A. Ton]

Look what i made for the fans and the this:
https://miiverse.nintendo.net/posts/AYQHAAABAAAEVHhm85akLA

And I voted for him 5 times. Do I get 5 pizzas?

 

[JayJay55]

Considering Pokemon is Nintendo's second biggest franchise, I don't see a problem with 7 Pokemon. You know, unless that 7th Pokemon isn't Meowth.

I would be on board with this. I would have literally zero problems with Meowth playable.

 

[Bowserlick]

If Dixie and Wolf are popular, I bet they both get in.

Wolf's moveset and animation template was already created and Diddy's model skeleton easily transfers to Dixie. They save time and if they are in demand, this leads to more money.

 

[Sidboylol]

And I voted for him 5 times. Do I get 5 pizzas?

Why not.

Of course.

 

[Deleted member]

And yeah, when there are multiple instances in every game of two characters being added from the same franchise, it would be arbitrary for Sakurai to suddenly not want it to happen yet again for DK with DLC. If anything, having two characters who can split a trailer and be sold as a bundle would be an incentive to choose whichever of the two weren't chosen first.

I was waiting for someone to bring this up.

Non-circumstantial examples (i.e. planned ahead of time):
Smash 64: Mario and Luigi, Pikachu and Jigglypuff
(Bowser, Mewtwo, and Dedede would have also added to this tally)

Melee: Bowser and Peach
And if you want to get technical, Zelda and Sheik, though they have the excuse of being the same individual and introduced together through a transforming gimmick.

Brawl: Meta Knight and King Dedede, Pokémon Trainer and Lucario
(Toon Zelda/Sheik was also planned as filler, so it could have been Toon Link and Toon Zelda/Sheik)

Smash 4: Rosalina and Bowser Jr.

Circumstantial examples (i.e. not planned ahead of time):
Melee: Mewtwo and Pichu (last minute clone), Marth and Roy (last minute clone), Bowser/Peach and Dr. Mario (last minute clone), Zelda/Sheik and Young Link/Ganondorf (last minute clones)

Brawl: None, but it could have been Diddy and Dixie (separate).

Smash 4: Robin and Lucina (last minute clone), Palutena and Dark Pit (last minute clone)

Notice how Sakurai has mainly avoided double-dipping in initial plans, and has become less inclined to do so over the years, with just this latest game only featuring a single double-dip that wasn't a result of certain character alts getting their own placements on the roster later in development.

Now, DLC has come into the picture for the first time in the series. This can easily change things, such as for example, Elma or Paper Mario being alongside Shulk and Rosalina/Jr. But at the same time, with how limited DLC is going to be, I don't think series are going to double-dip the DLC. I'm not expecting another Pokémon, be it another returning veteran (Pichu, Squirtle, Ivysaur) or a newcomer (Sceptile) because of Mewtwo. I'm not expecting someone like Corrin because of Roy (though to be fair, I wouldn't have expected Corrin even if Roy wasn't DLC). So likewise, I will not expect both Dixie and K. Rool.

Do I want it to happen? **** yes. But I'm not betting on it happening. That way if it does happen, it will be a pleasant surprise, and if it doesn't, I wouldn't have gotten my hopes up for nothing.

 

[Joeyd123]

How much do you guys think Casual players impact the ballot? Like I hear some people saying how casuals just stopped playing, but I actually disagree with this. I feel like there are many casuals who come back for 1-2 weeks everytime new DLC comes out. And I also think they care about the DLC even though they don't put in as much time as competitive players.

Which brings me to my next point. Most casuals won't vote for the same characters that people on this site vote for. Such as a character like Isaac. I've play Nintendo games all my life and only know who he is because of people supporting him on SmashBoards. If I didn't know him, very few casual players will. While those players will be more inclined to support characters like Waluigi, Toad, Daisy, pretty much any Mario character, (their favorite pokémon lol), King K Rool somewhat, and Dixie somewhat, and there are obviously other ones I'm forgetting but I think you should get my point

 

[BKupa666]

Taking another character's moveset and just changing a chunk of moves is only acceptable if your name isn't K. Rool, hm?

Beyond the attacks he physically can't do, if you look at physiology, K. Rool would look out of place doing a lot of Bowser's other attacks too. Bowser has giant stumpy legs, perfect for drop kicks, and large arms that can easily perform ranged punches. By comparison, K. Rool has little legs and T-Rex arms, his mass primarily being located in his body rather than distributed like Bowser's.

The comparison really feels like "Mega Man would be a Samus clone," except in that comparison, there's none of the inherent bias against heavyweights that is present here.

 

[JaidynReiman]

I was waiting for someone to bring this up.

Non-circumstantial examples (i.e. planned ahead of time):
Smash 64: Mario and Luigi, Pikachu and Jigglypuff
(Bowser, Mewtwo, and Dedede would have also added to this tally)

Melee: Bowser and Peach
And if you want to get technical, Zelda and Sheik, though they have the excuse of being the same individual and introduced together through a transforming gimmick.

Brawl: Meta Knight and King Dedede, Pokémon Trainer and Lucario
(Toon Zelda/Sheik was also planned as filler, so it could have been Toon Link and Toon Zelda/Sheik)

Smash 4: Rosalina and Bowser Jr.

Circumstantial examples (i.e. not planned ahead of time):
Melee: Mewtwo and Pichu (last minute clone), Marth and Roy (last minute clone), Bowser/Peach and Dr. Mario (last minute clone), Zelda/Sheik and Young Link/Ganondorf (last minute clones)

Brawl: None, but it could have been Diddy and Dixie (separate).

Smash 4: Robin and Lucina (last minute clone), Palutena and Dark Pit (last minute clone)

Notice how Sakurai has mainly avoided double-dipping in initial plans, and has become less inclined to do so over the years, with just this latest game only featuring a single double-dip that wasn't a result of certain character alts getting their own placements on the roster later in development.

Now, DLC has come into the picture for the first time in the series. This can easily change things, such as for example, Elma or Paper Mario being alongside Shulk and Rosalina/Jr. But at the same time, with how limited DLC is going to be, I don't think series are going to double-dip the DLC. I'm not expecting another Pokémon, be it another returning veteran (Pichu, Squirtle, Ivysaur) or a newcomer (Sceptile) because of Mewtwo. I'm not expecting someone like Corrin because of Roy (though to be fair, I wouldn't have expected Corrin even if Roy wasn't DLC). So likewise, I will not expect both Dixie and K. Rool.

Do I want it to happen? **** yes. But I'm not betting on it happening. That way if it does happen, it will be a pleasant surprise, and if it doesn't, I wouldn't have gotten my hopes up for nothing.

I don't expect Dixie and K. Rool either. I just think its more likely for them both to get in than JUST Dixie.

How much do you guys think Casual players impact the ballot? Like I hear some people saying how casuals just stopped playing, but I actually disagree with this. I feel like there are many casuals who come back for 1-2 weeks everytime new DLC comes out. And I also think they care about the DLC even though they don't put in as much time as competitive players.

Which brings me to my next point. Most casuals won't vote for the same characters that people on this site vote for. Such as a character like Isaac. I've play Nintendo games all my life and only know who he is because of people supporting him on SmashBoards. If I didn't know him, very few casual players will. While those players will be more inclined to support characters like Waluigi, Toad, Daisy, pretty much any Mario character, (their favorite pokémon lol), King K Rool somewhat, and Dixie somewhat, and there are obviously other ones I'm forgetting but I think you should get my point

I think Casual players only impact the ballot in a very limited way. And as far as Isaac is concerned, I heard his name flying around all the time around the time of Brawl, and on various sites online right now I visit, he's a very common suggestion.


If any casuals vote, they'll vote for random characters, or characters suggested by more hardcore players. They're not going to vote for characters that are easy to implement or will provide a unique experience that a lot of Smash hardcore players will. Largely they'll vote for "cool" characters they see elsewhere, many of whom won't even be video game characters, and otherwise they'll largely be third-parties as well.