Just 'nother Mafia game | Game over, town wins

[The Man From Delamar]

Uhh, so's mine. It's pretty bizarre to think that a townie would push one particular scum read five days into a Day that ain't got no deadline toward a lynch without any sort of care in the world about developin' other scum reads. Is it a rarity to see a townie go completely bull-headed when it comes to a slot they think is scum? Heck no. But town still cares about developin' reads on other players that they're unsure about. So while his push, in isolation, had decent points about the poor quality of Soup's play, you can't just ignore the nature of the push along with the moves (or lack thereof) that Dietz made outside of that push.

 

[Maven89]

Even Maven, himself, toDay has pointed out that my PoV does make sense.

No I didn't, I just said I realized people would talk about it. I thought you were scum for pushing it and tried to track you for it.

It takes time to read a game, it takes time to establish a slot.

I got a problem with this. You said several other times that you had already been reading the game before you even replaced in, and clearly demonstrated this by your comments. But here you're talking about how you haven't posted your Dietz stuff yet because it "takes time to read a game and to establish a slot", but by your own comments you've been doing that for a long time now.

As an observer without a slot in the game, I had an extra slot's worth of work to do as far as reading the game, and I still had Kaladin as scum and Maven as town early on. What he was doing seemed plenty obvious to me, and that statement goes toward both of 'em. I ain't some wiz kid at this game, so if I reached those reads through logic why the hell didn't the rest of the town?

Yeah I'm gonna take some amount of credit for havin' better reads early on. Was I around to post 'em? Nah, and that's why I acknowledge that this is null. But picture havin' those reads, watchin' the game helplessly for like weeks, then coming into this situation. Seein' my POV yet? Frustrated yet? Cuz I am.

I am waiting on Jdietz43 to respond before I say anything else because I thought the Man had good points mixed in his posts.

I'll just let The Man from Delamar know that Soup is actually a veteran player, and while this doesn't clear Dietz from anything I was pretty close to agreeing with him on whether or not Soup had basically outed himself by that push.

I've definitely been slacking these last few days. I have some small problems with Man from Delamar, larger ones with the slot but since it's repalced can't be dealt with now, but it does have to be acknowledged.

So right now I have a single question The Man From Delamar , when you were a spectator, how were you reading Koopa's slot?

 

[The Man From Delamar]

No I didn't, I just said I realized people would talk about it. I thought you were scum for pushing it and tried to track you for it.



I got a problem with this. You said several other times that you had already been reading the game before you even replaced in, and clearly demonstrated this by your comments. But here you're talking about how you haven't posted your Dietz stuff yet because it "takes time to read a game and to establish a slot", but by your own comments you've been doing that for a long time now.



I am waiting on Jdietz43 to respond before I say anything else because I thought the Man had good points mixed in his posts.

I'll just let The Man from Delamar know that Soup is actually a veteran player, and while this doesn't clear Dietz from anything I was pretty close to agreeing with him on whether or not Soup had basically outed himself by that push.

I've definitely been slacking these last few days. I have some small problems with Man from Delamar, larger ones with the slot but since it's repalced can't be dealt with now, but it does have to be acknowledged.

So right now I have a single question The Man From Delamar , when you were a spectator, how were you reading Koopa's slot?

When I received the notice that I'd be replacing into the game, I had a pretty firm stance on where my head was at. Regardless, I decided to read the thread again last night to organize my thoughts 'n make cohesive notes to myself about all of the remaining players, and to make a well structured case against Dietz. That's why it took me until about roughly 5:00 AM to get the post out. I like to be very thorough.

Regardless of Soup's veteran status, his case on you was still not enough to just up 'n warrant him being the only player Dietz investigated at that point in time. Plus, I've experienced enough stupidity by "experienced" people, both in and out of mafia, to know that experience does not excuse somebody from simply being might dim-witted.

In a very general sense, I started off having general mixed feelings about TKOK. There were more than just a few things that struck me as newbtown about 'em, but there were also instances that I felt like he could've... done more. Ultimately, though, my read on TKOK never felt more scummy than the likes of Dietz, J, or Orbo throughout D1. After Kaladin flipped scum, however, I found myself seeing J and Orbo as town more and more with their play in contingence with Kaladin's, and my possible scum read on them diminished as my scumread on Dietz strengthened. That left TKOK as my possible failsafe had I been incorrect on Dietz.

 

[The Man From Delamar]

Yup, we sure got us a game now.

Maven89 Some food for thought that just occurred to me, but for all the game readin' I did before I came in, replacing in effectively gave me a new flip via replacin' this Koops fella. I'd really advise against lettin minor stuff like phrasing bother ya to such an extent.

Orboknown - Fella, I asked you a nice and direct question and I asked ya again. I'm running outta ways to ask you the same question here.

I dont expect ya to reproduce the whole dang game vote by vote from memory. I'm askin you to recap me on what D1 looked like from your pov, because that pov wasn't gettin no exposure here where I can see it.

It shouldn't be hard and it don't got to be precise. I'm just askin you -- what happened, when, and what was your perspective durin' it all. You got the first vote in that killed a bad guy. It should be obvious I'm tryin' to finagle my read on you.

So you got your read on Dietz. Any thoughts on the case? Any points you're rethinkin? Or are you still hitchin your horse on myself and J? And if so, what do you make of our respective moves on D2 thus far?

#HBC | J Howdy. You took your night off; any thoughts to offer the game now? Things ain't any less stagnant so far.

 

[Maven89]

It's not phrasing but looking for you being forced to change your reads up/focus on something other then you really would have because you replaced in as scum. That's what I was looking for

I'm also waiting on Dietz and I do think it's really important because you are right, we were giving Dietz too much of a town read. I have my own reasons for why I was doing it but I really don't want to talk in depth about any of it until Dietz responds.

 

[Jdietz43]

Muchos apologies for my absence, real life slapped me in the face. I'll be catching up best I can here and should be able to post from now on normally.

 

[Jdietz43]

Jdietz43 (I sure hope I did that right) Why in god's name did you think it was a swell idea to out the tracker? Now, rather than prepare for the possibility of getting a tracker clear after a mislynch, we have now guaranteed that the tracker will die of the game continues after toDay. In fact, to the rest of y'all, what in god's name made ALL YOU GUYS think it was a good idea?

Well, from my perspective an outed tracker with a result that's not me immediately solves the game. And chances of that happening were actually pretty high. Maven didn't have a result because he was jailed, which I didn't anticipate at all, but I still don't regret asking for the out. I'd rather have worst case one clear now than no clears if they're shot at night. This forces Mafia's hand.

 

[Jdietz43]

Before I start on my response to your accusations Mr. Delamar, I only have one question of you:

Would you have bodied that man?

 

[Jdietz43]

You seem to see the failure in Soup's play in his push against Maven just fine. So:

Would you. Have bodied. That man?

 

[The Man From Delamar]

Say, that's a bit of a loaded question now ain't it?

All's I can really say is my mind went straight to dumb-or-scum when I saw his opening to the game. I think I made it pretty dang clear that I'm a firm believer of tryin' to make your reads as solid as you can when there's still gaps to fill. I'm pretty darn sure I'd have gone ahead with interrogatin' em, but if by "bodied" you mean mercilessly chased his lynch like you did, I gotta say I don't think I would've. 'Cuz that'd have been incredibly stupid at that point in time.

But of course, you know that there ain't no real way ofme answerin' that there question since I wasn't there. What's your motive for askin' me that anyway?

 

[The Man From Delamar]

Saw J in here a coupla hours ago...

If that's your concern Maven89 , then alright. It ain't the case, but it's a far cry from J's wordin' this and feels that. I can see havin that worry.

How I played should make it readily apparent that ain't the case though. I wanted live interaction with the cast of the game I been watchin since before Soup was even in this friggin thing, so imagine how long I been watchin from the clouds tearin my hair out. I also wanted another read for a few reasons -- wasn't exactly keepin detailed notes on a game it wasn't lookin like I'd get to join, so I needed to dig up the context and specifics of why I didn't like Dietz. And with so many slots playin shoddy and a confirmation of the gut-town-at-best shifty-null-at-worst Koopa slot's town alignment, gettin another read in was just only gonna do me good. And it did. sadly the live interaction wasn't in the cards and I got tussled into showin my scumread early when that crazy dame J was doggin me, but honestly I woulda liked a whole lot more opportunity to question y'all before diggin into the thread and tippin my hand.

You dont gotta justify when you feel like sayin or doin somethin, far as Im concerned you dont owe me **** considerin' I had you as a town read just days after i even found Smashboards, and now youre cleared to boot. With that said I do wanna get your thought on somethin IF it wont interfere with your own game plan -- do you find this "I wanna wait for _______ to pan out " schtick typical of J?

When Im feelin like I'm bang on in a game as I have been in this one thus far, the number one thing I do to check my boots is have a look around at the people Im not lookin at and ask which ones could be playin' me.

Still feel dang sold on Dietz after that umpteenth relook, but if J's got one tendency that sends my gut a-rumblin', it's the amount of time she's spent waiting for fights between people to pan out. D1 she felt there was scum 'tween you and Soup and posted more 'n once about wanting to watch it go down. Both of y'all were town. That spooks my spurs a bit when she's now sayin the same things about myself and Dietz. The naggin voice reminding me I ain't some prodigy at this game tells me to worry about it, 'specially when she popped by earlier and didn't say nothin. Coulda been busy, yeah. Could also have been lurkin, seen that Dietz ain't replied, and bounced out while she waits to see which side ends up easier to take.

It's all academic on some level for me because I am REAL dang sure on Dietz, and Orbo is probably my outside shot right now. I'm wonderin' if J oughta be there and Im puttin too much stock in a last second hammer. Still. That hammer, a general consistency and some other paper trail shenanigans have her the closest thing I got to a town read right now. I just don't like feelin this uneasy about someone I need to be town. Normally I call town on a fella cuz I like either what they say and do or why they say and do it. That's just kinda almost never been the case for that gal, and most folks would call the push on you/Kaladin (then usin those suspicions of Kala to push you harder) textbook scumplay. Then just, man. The more I think about it the harder it gets not to be paranoid: Pittin' me and Dietz in a be all end all saloon brawl while pushin' the one odd man out (Orbo) is a mighty safe path to take. Not that anything's as safe as outin the tracker and then pushin the nullest slot, heh

Sheesh, this was all sposeta be a quick post on my handheld telephone device here but watchin a game with no power or voice for so long gets a fella pent up! Long story short, I think my pov on this game glides just fine if you think on it, I think Dietz is mafia and will hang my hat on it, but if somebody's actually trickin me, it might be J.

 

[Jdietz43]

Hindsight is indeed 20/20 Mr. Delamar, but I just want to know a little more about you. I'm sure you'd do the same.

Really though, I'm asking because you showed enough understanding through your posts that Soup's push onto Maven was mind numbingly bad that I wonder how much you actually hold my persuing him against me.

 

[Jdietz43]

(I suspect, not that much)

Now. I do believe I've been gone quite a long time and owe a newcomer to these parts some answers, so I'll be startin.

 

[The Man From Delamar]

Know a little more 'bout me? How is me tellin' y'all whether or not I'd do somethin' (that's clearly impossible to determine) gonna give ya any sort of a feel for who I am? For all ya know I can up 'n lie about the man I am.

Do I hold the fact that you pursued him at all against ya? No. But the nature of your push against Soup is darn tootin' a significant reason I think yer scum.

 

[The Man From Delamar]

Also, like I told the damsel J, the name ain't Delamar. Delamar's a place I call home. You don't hear me callin' the president of the U.S Mr. White House now do ya?

 

[Jdietz43]

Dietz showed a real gusto when a town PR came into the game with a terrible case on another town PR. Where was that same gusto to start off the Day? With all those flips I'd've expected the guy to go nuts and instead he's just kickin' it on the rear horse watchin' us poke each other. Just like he was for several IRL days while town slowly stalled out on the Maven/Kaladin issue.

Alright, right off the bat you're making assumptions that how much I want to play is directly related to when I can play and how strong my play can be when I'm there. I'd think someone who just lectured J about feels and tangential reads would understand that's not a very good indicator of what I'm actually trying to accomplish. You've been giving me a lot of guff in your posts about how much I was able to contribute immediately after the Soup claim and when D2 started but you're holding me to double standards (remember all those great cleared Town Soup posts that he made while people were trying to decide a lynch before D1 ended, yeah that one, all the one of them, he was probably lurking amirite?). You can be mad about it, but I can't change how much I could and couldn't post then, same goes for the start of D2. At the time I had to post there, asking for a claim which I legitimately believe was a good choice to make was about as much as I could actually post.

 

[Jdietz43]

Look at Jdietz. He pokes at Maven (town PR) slightly on the whole Kaladin/Koops thing. Quite honestly, as a spectator readin' at the time I had the same impression Maven did that Kaladin seemed "pumped to find scum". This proved to be more and more incorrect as that first impression fell apart completely with Kala's actions, and in a hurry. Still, I got a more "active" vibe from what Kaladin was doing than Koops, whose contributions gave me little to work with other than a gutvibe.

I feel like Jdietz zeroed in on that too easily and on a basis of knowing Kaladin was scum moreso than actually having a reason to find differentiating the slots unreasonable.

Then Soup comes into the game and makes a push on Maven, and suddenly Jdietz has all the gusto in the world to offer. And pushes hard. Then ... barely a mouse's peep after Soup claimed to actually, actively drive the thread or what happens. Lots of posturing regarding Kaladin but no investigation, no pressure, just lots of strong statements and posturing. He never feels like he's trying to get a bead on Kaladin's actions. Things stall out and he votes Kaladin -- that gave me a bit of a townier vibe at first, but really, Jdietz was NOT pushing or investigating Kaladin at pretty much any point on D1. He made his one big push and coasted on its merits before and afterward.

I'll go into finer detail, but look at Jdietz and Kaladin as a unit instead of just doing your "feels" and "emotions" and "intent" thing. Think of how they could have been working as a unit and, imo, it all gels pretty nicely.

This particular post struck a chord with me. This post, along with #95 and #97, consist of Dietz questioning over and over why Maven had read Kaladin's post as the most townie at that point in the game, and has a hard time lettin' up on the fact. The problem is, there ain't no question to be answered: Maven says there's no real substantiation about why Kaladin is feels the most townie to him, aside from enthusiasm. But that's essentially explained when Maven basically calls Kaladin a slight gut town lean. He even says Kaladin doesn't read as townie, rather, Kaladin just happens to read as the most townie. Dietz seems like a veteran player, so he should certainly be familiar with gut reads. Why is this one so special to him?

In a world where Dietz is Kaladin's scum partner, this play is easily interpretable as a means to get Maven to look like he's softly defendin' Kaladin, somebody who's definitely scum from Dietz' POV. It's a good means of putting Maven in a sticky situation down the road if the play calls for it that Dietz instigates.

I'll skip ahead and group these since they address the same point in time.

I think you know well enough that getting someone to talk to you is the best way to find out who thy are and what they're about. I couldn't have given two ****s about who Maven actually claimed a read on over another, I wanted to see what he'd do when questioned on why he chose to say what he did. I wanted to know why he claimed to have that feeling about a player already when reasonably speaking: there was a second one just as exactly identical to him. After chewing the issue over with him (and especially conjoined with his "**** garden" angle that followed) I got a much better read on what the hell Maven's mindset and goals were (genuine). Considering that town read was correct and stuck through several attempts to lynch him I say it served it's purpose expertly. You're getting hung up that Kaladin was the player he was talking about because you're already mentally playing from the perspective that you know that he matters.

 

[Jdietz43]

I'll be breaking this up into chunklets as best I can.

Skipping over the RVS between CHP and Kaladin because I have zero to do with that stage of the game, and any input I have on it won't change anything you think about it already. You're either going to interpret it as two extremely new players herping on a piece of mafia lexicon, or two extremely new scum players herping on a piece of mafia lexicon and they're freely interchangeable. Why you added that you think it's forced though I'm unsure on.

 

[The Man From Delamar]

Pause button. Sidebar for the most important question I got for ya Dietz:

What is your read on me as of now?

(you may continue on as desired afterward.)

 

[Jdietz43]

You seem more likely town who found an extremely unfortuante set of coincidences and play fails that I now have to redeem myself for, at least you've been stopping to give the others in thread an eye up and down before launching into me despite clearly already having pent up a decision on it.

It's hard to say though, I wish I could've had different circumstances where I could've gotten to talk to you more organically as you started to position in to wagon me though. As it is now I just have to kind of take for granted that the fact you stopped to look at everyone else for two seconds before launching into it means you cared to see if anyone would prove you wrong in the meantime.

 

[Jdietz43]

Like the only reason I had Koopa as my vote the last time I was here was because analyzing the votes pointed to him as a good next step to investigate after Maven got no tracks and he really needed to talk. If I could've had this kind of contribution from him that probably wouldn't have been neccessary

 

[Jdietz43]

Next, Soup joins the fray and finds himself making an absolutely laughable case against Maven. Objectively, it ain't hard to see how bad that case was. From where I was sittin', that post alone launched Soup into the dumb-or-scum category. But it seems like Dietz had one thing on his mind:



Soup. Was. Scum. There was no doubt in the guy's mind. In fact, from that post to this post:



Soup is just about the only thing JDietz even mentions. Some may certainly call it tunnel vision, but I'd say it transcends far past tunneling. For instance, J tunneled Maven. J tunneled Maven pretty hard. But, all the while, J was giving himself the opportunity to look at the thread and try to figure out reads on other players and discuss things with other players. He had interactions outside of his major tunnel. Dietz was dialed in from #139 to #193 on Soup being scum and Soup deserving to be lynched. Everything he said had to do with that for a whopping 54 posts total. Mind you, this game was five days in at this point in time, had no assigned deadline, and had a measly five pages worth of content. Yet, JDietz was definitely giving the impression that a Soup lynch was THE play to end all other plays. Finding scum outside of Soup did not matter to him at all during this time.

As scum, JDietz damn near completely forgot about town's need to have at least a decent read on every player in the game. His only concern was that his town alter ego "found scum" in Soup. He saw Soup's extremely bad play and pounced on it like a hungry cheetah. He's clearly got a grip on the fundamentals of mafia from this exhibition, but he did not execute a townie play. The only thing stopping Dietz from manipulating town and shotgunning Soup was the fact that Soup claimed jailer.

Okay, can you blame me though. I had never been this sure so fast on a town read AND someone who sucked ass attacking that town read.

You say "as scum I forgot about town's need to have a decent read on every player".

I'mma flip that on it's head for you: As town I forgot about my own need to have reads on other players.

Do the math: 9 player game, confirmed open setup with 2 goons, a tracker and a jailer. In what world where I successfully lynch scum D1 off the bat with no one revealed do the odds not fair pretty well for the rest of the game no matter what? It's sad but true that the best way to get Soup involved is to confront him or he'll armchair scum you to death like he did successfully in the game I just hosted before this game ran and was therefore fresh on the forefront of my mind. The last thing I wanted was for someone who I felt was legitimately the most important focus for the day to get away with some casual AtE, blow off his terrible push, and slide into people just ignoring him. Hence: immediate 0 to 60 no brakes. As you highlight immediately after this, I was also thinking Kaladin was a good chance to be his partner based on their vote pattern onto Maven, which gave me pretty much exactly 0 reason not to force the issue to be dealt with. The reason you feel like I "shotgunned" at him is because I did. The only reason you think it's bad or manipulative is because it wasn't correct and Soup claimed early because he had something to claim so discussion on it stopped early and abruptly without fully letting reads around it develop. You bring up all about how we didn't have a deadline at that point, and we didn't, but that logic goes the opposite direction. No deadline = more than enough time to flesh out reads on other people based on how they approach the Soup wagon and how they treat it. No deadline also means theoretically infinite time for Soup to squirm around and give more clues as to whether he's scum or not (I was pretty sure he was), but it was cut very short by him claiming when no one was actually ready to hammer him or end discussion for the day. I didn't expect that either, it kind of put a halt on everything.

 

[Jdietz43]

Actually, wait. I lied. Dietz DID have a moment where he looked for scum outside of Soup in between #139 and #193:



If you're too lazy to look directly at the source, well shame on you. Nevertheless, this is Dietz hinting at the idea that Kaladin may be Soup's scum partner. This is a very non-committal way to go about it on top of that. However, he says he'd rather wait until Day 2 to do any sort of investigation on Kaladin because he'd rather get rid of Soup before he starts partnering 'em up. Let me remind y'all that THERE WAS NO DEADLINE FOR THIS GAME WHEN THIS WAS MENTIONED. Why in the world would a townie think that investigatin' a scum read of his is not worth his time, especially when he's done absolutely none throughout the entirety of the Day outside of Soup? As town, I know that I would not only continue to investigatin' other players while I grill my prime suspect, but I'd DEFINITELY interrogate the "most possible partner" of the player I think is definitely scum.

I specifically asked people to wait until Day 2 because I wanted people to look at Soup for what he'd done, which I found mega-scummy. What Kaladin had done was scummy if combined with known SoupScum, but there was a good chance it was also a very dumb newtown not realizing his vote timing very well. (it happened again later, which erased a lot of this doubt, but at the time I wanted to focus on who I thought was scum to begin with.)

I wanted that opinion known because J was seemingly having internal struggle with the whys of why it could be happening the way it was, but assuming Kaladin was already scum too for it seemed like putting the cart before the Soup and you can only lynch one at a time.

 

[Jdietz43]

Speaking of Kaladin, he's flipped scum. Some of you may be wondering why I've yet to really mention him and how he's associated with Dietz. Well, that's because their association is... a severe lack of association. Seriously. From the moment Dietz replaces into the game, Kaladin acknowledges his existence twice, once if you don't count this however:



I don't make this stuff up. It's all in the thread. Sure, Kaladin played a bad scum game. Sure, Kaladin is probably very inexperienced. But for how bad his play may have been, he played the game of mafia and had concrete interactions with every single player. Except for Dietz. Until #307, the only mention of Dietz at all is a simple "hm."

I don't have much control over that, I was Soup-city at that point and I don't doubt just letting me go for it was on the top-list for scum.

 

[#HBC | J]

Sorry I went out for drinks tonight since it's Friday. I may be doing the same tomorrow but I'll try to quick hit some things then.

 

[Jdietz43]

Back to the jailer claim. Soup claimed jailer and the votes started comin' off of the poor fella. All the while, suspicion slowly but surely starts to creep up on Kaladin. JDietz' first post after the claim is as follows:



Well hot damn is that a backpedal if I've never seen one before. Dietz spent an entire page and a half to two pages grillin this guy and screaming to the high heavens about how Soup is THE play for the Day, and that there was no other way 'round it. It was go Soup or go home. Now that Soup claimed jailer and the case against him dissipated, the point of the push was for... pressure? Well if I ain't never seen somebody lyin' through their teeth I have now! Dietz, as previously mentioned, was not investigating AT ALL outside of Soup. There was no way that JDietz showed any sort of curiosity for anything else while he was pursuing Soup. To call that push anything aside from a push toward a lynch is complete hogwash. Pfft. "Pressure."

Lol, okay this is a fair point, because it's partially true. But you're misinterpreting a bit: I'm calling what he felt pressure. Literally the only reason I phrase it that way is because I was now coming to terms with the fact that I was wrong and didn't want him to feel bad that he claimed, as if you head back to that page of thread people were at that point starting to let seep through that they thought that him claiming already was a fail (Orbo's 220 and J's #224), and Soup had voiced disappointment about the situation of course. Really It was a kiss the boo-boo post. You probably noticed, but I was ragging on his play pretty hard there before he claimed, calling stuff he said dumb and faked because it seemed so obtuse I thought it was: but now he just admitted it was what he really thought. Since Soup was town, I didn't want him to get more upset about claiming then he had to be and have it affect the rest of his potential use as a clear in D1 just because the reality was that he probably had zero chance of me stopping anytime soon as I admit in the first sentence. I let him know that yes, I would have unvoted and not let it be to L-1 already, but he shouldn't feel bad that he had to claim. (he actually kind of should have, but that's not the correct time to tell the new clear you need to be able to make level headed posts that you thought his legitimate opinions were steaming piles of garbage and his early claim was poor play, you save that for post-game, this exact scenario, and maybe never)

 

[Jdietz43]

Then, 23 minutes later, JDietz comes out and posts this:



He explains his town read on Maven and how it's been established ever since the falling of Maven's ****garden, and especially with how he handled Soup. Considerin' the fact that Soup is confirmed to be the jailer, he goes ahead and hands THE REST OF THE CAST to the thread in order to discuss them amongst themselves. Mind you, this is coming from the guy who's only input has been an extremely weak early game question to Maven about Kaladin being his town lean, and his ferocious attack on Soup. He has done nothing else so far, throughout these 240 posts, and feels like handing the rest of the cast off for discussion ain't no big deal. Might as well just say "I'm just not going to comment on this" since it means the exact same thing. Of course, that'd be more directly bizarre rather than just being discretely bizarre. In his #188, he STRONGLY implied suspicion of Kaladin, so why isn't he looking to develop that, or at least expand on that, in any way shape or form. In #188, he pointed out Kaladin's wishy-washiness between Maven and Soup as a point of interest. Why is Kaladin not worth discussing to Dietz when he even pointed out Kaladin's opportunism to switch wagons ON A PLAYER WHO IS OFFICIALLY CONFIRMED TOWN? Overall, Dietz just wound up not takin' a stance aside from a Maven town read and offers zero direction, and this is how he sees things post-soup.

Alright, see this phase of the game from my perspective. Soup is town and you've got egg alllll over your face, and you pretty much just took up a lot of thread volume voicing that opinion. You need two things: A) Time to think about what the other possibilities are and B) To give thread space to breathe and ask any questions they might have as you'll probably understandably be the center of discussion for awhile and you've already taken up quite a bit of thread beforehand, contributing to the lack of things to get other reads from

The answer is to just literally tell thread what you think: which at that point was "Well **** it Maven is still town at least". Take a step back, and see what happens and who comes to get answers from you while you reconstruct your view on the pages leading up to when your prime scum suspect stopped being valid.

Now, as to why I didn't immediately go to Kaladin as you're insinuating was wrong of me: My Kaladin read kind of fell to pieces after Soup claim. He was initially an early candidate for Soup's Scum partner because when Soup came into thread to vote Maven he voted with him and put Maven to L-1. That seemed like a badly timed newbscum "I'm helping" at the time with the potential for Soup Scum so high. Later on during the push on Soup, he then puts Soup to L-1 and Soup claims jailer, without me being in thread in between. At that point I didn't know what to think about Kaladin anymore. He clearly didn't have any problem putting people to L-1, but I'd also never seen him in a game before. Maybe this is just something he thinks is okay? He went immediately back to dumb or scum instead of just scum and I had no idea which way it was supposed to go over the other anymore. Is Kaladin scum over dumb valid with a cleared Soup? I wasn't sure. Hence: I just leave it as Maven town read in my "welp" post and wait to give the rest of thread a chance to catch up since I clearly didn't know wtf anymore.

 

[Jdietz43]

As the game goes on and the thread's suspicion of Kaladin grows stronger and stronger, Dietz officially mentions that Kaladin is his strongest scumpick:



Looking past his shallow piggy-back of Maven's callout for J not giving opinions, Dietz officially mentions that Kaladin's his strongest scum read. But not only that: he insists that there is a lot left to be seen in the Day, and that he still doesn't have a good stance on where Orboknown and J stand. Not only is this contradictory to how he conducted himself when he was leading the lynch mob against Soup (remember how it just seemed like he didn't particularly care about how others faced up next to his top scum read?), but at this point, the thread has universally agreed that Kaladin is at least particularly suspicious. Dietz is late to the hootenanny and is try'na slip himself right in. Pretty slimy if you ask me.



Folks, this is the very first thing your strongest town read directly said to Kaladin, HIS STRONGEST SCUM READ, yesterDay. A measly ol' parrot of what's been said multiple times before. If you'd like proof, go ahead and click the source link and just look back for that list. It's mentioned as an abomination on more than one occasion prior to this post.



This is the second, and I believe final, sentiment that JDietz says to his strongest scum pick. He mocks Kaladin by... just sounding like a tough guy without really doing anything. Great.

All the while, Kaladin was getting grilled hard for having stalled out the thread for a very long time, and he needed to deliver. And he sure delivered... Somethin'.

I'd like to point out that I didn't claim he was my strongest scum read. He was the one I'd care the least about if we killed him AKA, I felt like we lost the least if we killed him and were wrong.You can infer that that could be considered the strongest scum read, but it's not really what the intent of the post was. When compared to Maven, everyone not Soup was worse.

As you've correctly noted: pushing Soup really hard didn't really give me a lot to work with after he was off the table. And since that ended up being a fail, I let others take control to see if things would go in a more correct direction while hopefully giving me more to read. If you notice, I actually start to question J harder as I start to see logical holes in his Maven/Kaladin scumteam proposal. I didn't have a lot of room to maneuver on my own reads beforehand due to:

Mild prod-dodge. Was at Kings of the North 4 today. Will try and read what I've missed if not tonight then tomorrow in between spectating.

But I did what I could to expand my info on J and Kaladin to make a decision when I had the time to.


As Kaladin kept posting worse and worse and it became extremely clear that he was actively dodging giving opinions and faking that he wasn't posting things "because he had a theory and wanted to see how people would react" I put him back as scum over dumb. I humored it to try and see what his "theory" was to see if that would let me read him more, but simply refusing to ever give one was a much better read than anything he would've actually said. You can poo poo my dismissal of him as childish or whatever you want, but it got the message across, I also re-iterate my sentiments again in #319 which you omit before giving up on any hope he's worth saving if he is still town. To be honest: I wasn't really very sure he'd flip scum, but he did. I don't think people are town reading me for the strength of my conviction on the matter, only that I did indeed put down that second vote and get him killed in the long run. You can WIFOM that up to be a bus in your head all you want, but it wasn't. There was nothing stopping me from doing nothing or pushing another mystery slot like Orbo or Koopa if I was actually trying to mislead town.

 

[Jdietz43]

Most of this is filled with a bunch'a malarkey, but take notice about the stark difference between this and literally anything else he's done so far: he mentions JDietz. It's as if... he was prompted not to so blatantly leave JDietz out! But how 'bout we go ahead and take a look at the content involving JDietz, surely this'll be what really shows whether or not it's him treatin' Dietz consistently or not:

- "Except this... This upsets me. Soup was very handwavey instead of refutey in response to Maven/Dietz. Soup seems EXCEEDINGLY scummy, but, again, no cc."

Merely mentions the existence of Dietz' case against Soup. Sure is more than a "hm," but realistically still nothing.

- " Orboknown What was the nature of this vote?"

Merely mentions Dietz by association, askin' Orbo why his vote was on him (even though, hilariously enough, Orbo CLEARLY showed the fact that that was some sort of error between either him or Gheb in the post immediately following that votecount).

- "I actually dislike this. Why can't you see it as a bus attempt? Seems too early to rule out, but I digress."

Merely mentions Dietz when asking Orbo about something that Orbo had absolutely clarified prior to this.

- "Yeah... @TheKingofKoopas Have you, like, done anything even marginally significant this game? Koopa seems really coast-y to me."

Merely quotes JDietz and goes off on a tangent.

- "Dietz push was essentially "hey, look Soup's being stupid! Bad points! Vote Soup!", yes? I dunno about Dietz' meta, but it seems like a reasonable push to make, scum or town."

Merely describes Dietz' push on Soup like a kindergartener and says that's something town or scum would do.

- "Can you quantify what lets you read his intent? I'd be inclined to agree, but at the same time, I'd like to see you concretely justify your claim."

Starts to maybe go somewhere as far as looking for where Dietz' intent leads, but this is really just another filler spot where it leads to absolutely nothing.

So overall... Kaladin sure acknowledges Dietz' existence a lot, but still doesn't really do any sort of playin' mafia with 'em. Hell, even in this post, he plays mafia with Maven, with J, with Soup, with Orbo, with TKOK... EVERYBODY except for Dietz! Why isn't he playing with Dietz?!

From there, there's not much else to discuss. Dietz capitalized on the fact that the deadline was approaching and tried lookin' like he was rallyin' everybody up to go ahead 'n vote for Kaladin (when realistically things would have likely unfolded that way anyway). Dietz has really done a whole lot of nothin' this game, and it's all been haphazard and inconsistent. His play lines up extremely well with Kaladin's, and I sincerely can't see anybody else being scum with 'em.

Now I'm going to double up on your opinion that this post is filled with a bunch of malarky. The other points have largely been fair criticism (if sometimes angled unfairly) but all of this final piece feels like a huge reach where you're trying to force all the loose ends to fit your theory. You're basing a proposed connection between me and Kaladin almost entirely off of one post by a newb scum player where he primarily talks out loud to himself. As you say multiple times in your own post, most of it is filler that leads to nothing, so unless you're about to call filler "playing" I don't think that's a fair assessment to make, and I hella don't believe you actually "sincerely can't see anybody else being scum with 'em." Kaladin's partnerships are wide open, it's why we've been having trouble this phase. Even you yourself came in and tried to cross examine everyone else first to try and be sure. That's not the behavior of someone who sincerely can't see anyone else with him.

 

[Orboknown]

I like dietz replys to that.




Okay so d1 dietz puts soup on blast hard. Done it before as both alignments, doesn't seem to be just trashing hisnplaynjust to trash it^put soup down. Kaladin outs at l1, i think maven was the middle vote or maybe koops. Jailer claim throws that all apart.
Then j and...someone get onto maven. Don't remember why. Remember thinking the wagon didn't impress me. Lot of time passes by without much happening. Gheb puts up that votecount. O vote kaladin cuz i think hes the scummiest slot there. Dietz votes and hed sort kf been calling that slot out as well. Think mavenbputs him at l1 then J comes in for a last second hammer. Hammers null imo. Yeah the guy hates killing scummates nut he's done it before to put himself in towns good graces (see d1 dayvigging his own mate in inception maf)

 

[Maven89]

The Man From Delamar I think J could easily have hammered Kaladin as scum, he wasn't the only person left to vote and it's likely Kaladin would have been hammered anyways, I remember Koops even came into the thread to say he would. J could have just hammered his scum partner because he knew his partner was going to die and wanted some pro-town credit after attempting to lynch me over him. He did almost immediately start giving himself pro-town credit for doing so.

I really like Dietz's response. Man did point out that we were unfairly giving Dietz almost cleared status, and I'm still agreeing with him that he needs to be lower in everyone's townreads. Though I'm still reading him as town. Part of it is I doubt ScumDietz would try to get Soup lynched so early so quickly when he knew for a fact it'd come up town. And if the Tracker didn't respond, it would be in Dietz's best interest to let that stay and not have someone be cleared, or at worst two people be cleared. Then Dietz answered the rest to my satisfaction.


This is my main concern with Man from Delamar, and I semi mentioned it before, but he's clearly smart, but his Dietz read reeks of starting with the conclusion and trying to get the parts to fit. I have real trouble thinking he naturally came up with it, and it makes me wonder if this wasn't him attempting to come in and establish thread control and get rid of Dietz. The problem with that theory, though, is why would he go for Dietz? There's easier targets. It could just be this guy has a lot of guts, which is awesome and I think he does, but I'm not sure if that's what he's doing.

But I want #HBC | J to tell me what he thinks and go into more specifics about Orbo, because I actually have him after Dietz in my reads. I haven't re-read his day 1 stuff in a while but I don't remember seeing anythign really scummy from him, and nothing recently.

He has been coasting but large parts of that is his job, and when you exclude the fact that he can only post small amounts his content hasn't been scummy at all.

 

[The Man From Delamar]

Maven89

I ain't never been called a coward and I will happily square down with anybody that tries to say otherwise.

If I seem like I already had the conclusion before I dug up my points, it's because I DID. Again, I was watchin this game for a heckuva while and it wasn't lookin like I'd get my shot, so did I have notes or fleshed out reasons for my vibes? Nah, 'course not. I see Jdietz bound off the soup lynch and kick back instead of pushin Kaladin, I think about how I dont like it, and I carry on readin.

And that's the biggest thing. I just ain't been on the same wavelength as y'all for the most part. I was readin' during D1 and Kaladin's actions just stank right to high heaven for me. I really have had a puzzle to scratch my scruff over watchin so many folks dance around him without so much as firin a real shot in his direction. You seemed like you saw his behavior for what it was real early on, and that's what turned a town read into a bronze statue I wanna lay hearths at, cuz you were the only one.

I had almost all the reads I got right now on and durin' D1. To me I saw the town drunk stumblin around with a note on his back that says KILL ME and a town largely goin about its business. That informed the way I read y'all, even if i dont generally endorse tangent reads.

So to me I see a fella pushin Soup like all hell, and the town drunk stumblin all over the place clearly followin the breeze. And I just couldn't wrap my dome around it. I didn't get why soup and jdietz and EVERYBODY didn't see a fella clearly flowin around a TvT argument tryin to find the path of least resistance. It just put anybody that didn't treat em like scum that gotta die imperatively (anybody but you pretty much) look suspect. I don't buy that anybody could reread the game and not see where I'm comin from. The total lack of connective fiber between Dietz and Kaladin other than a coldstone newbie gettin jumpy at his mention in rvs (think about it - what compelled Cyber to speak up there?) is glaring when Dietz posted a fair sum on D1 and was involved in a wagon/argument Kaladin literally joined BOTH SIDES of. Why the consistent connections to everyone but Dietz? The one person with that low a level of connection is Orbo, but I got my own thoughts on Orbo I'm holdin onto for now.

Dietz's answers ain't terrible. I'm not sated in every respect, but they ain't terrible. Frankly I was expectin him to go straight for the ol'OMGUS cuz I was that confident on him so this is unexpected.

Jdietz43 So who you got for scum and why?

 

[Orboknown]

Maven i wouldn't say hes so super hi in peoples lists (dietz) so much as no one else is really super high until your claim.
Reading the rest of that more in depth

 

[The Man From Delamar]

'nother example of that whole other wavelength thing

But lookin at soup's play right from entry to twilight, I was just pretty dang sure there wasn't gonna be no track on N1. He was trapped in a tunnel like a Chilean. So while Maven's points are technically somewhat sound as far as Dietz askin for a tracker claim, think on it. Tracker hadnt outed a bingo so that was out. Dietz knew he was on almost-cleared status (and Town had already said so aloud if I remember it right). Outin' the tracker while there was

1. A chance he got rb'd
2. Obviously lacking a bingo
3. At worst able to provide a single clear to work around

...tell me how in the hell that's not better for mafia than havin no idea who he is goin into N2 and possibly gettin bingo'd?

In this scenario you get the 1-2 clears to work around and still end up with two people ya can try to ML. Kill tracker N2 to take out the doomsday fear and then play "appease the clear" in lylo. It's classic Epicmafia style goon play

Even if I'm wrong about Dietz, the bad guy remaining absolutely went along with the plan for the above stated reasons. Y'all are wrongheaded about "outing the tracker isn't proscum" just like y'all were wrongheaded about "Dietz is town forever".

But really, s'more food for thought. Was a solo mafia Dietz REALLY gonna survive it if he pushed ANOTHER lynch on ANOTHER town PR, and bound offa that into two mislynches? He got his hand caught in that cookie jar once, thinkin he'd wanna risk that again, esp with all Ive just said, is friggin naive folks

 

[The Man From Delamar]

Orboknown

'preciate the recap, but ya missed the other part of my question there regardin your pov for scum (whether you see the possibility of dietz or remain locked into Del/J). Dont just do PoE cuz that ain't gonna find a good lynch for ya by itself. Where you leanin? Why?

 

[The Man From Delamar]

Ah shoot. Two posts ago forgot to establish somethin; was startin to get a gutrumblin worry that maven was the tracker when nobody stepped up early D2 and by the time a couple folks said "not it" I was sure of it.

Basically I cursed this here town cuz the moment Soup reiterated that he somehow saw maven as acummier than kaladin I was like "dang, I sure as **** hope maven ain't the tracker". Irrational worry becomes reality.

 

[The Man From Delamar]

To reiterate: Picture a mafia Dietz not outin the tracker, and soup ain't the town's mad hatter and shot elsewhere N1

Lets say I don't replace in, Dietz enjoys the meatride and lynches Koops.

N2 maven either bingos him or investigates Orbo. Lets say mafia kills OrboTown or town J here

D3 starts with either a bingo'd Dietz, or maven and the clear he's about to out, leaving literally only the bad guy for lynch u less he tries a CC which would be weak comin from the guy that pushed the other town pr on D1. Awful odds there. Yeah he tries to hit the tracker with his N2 kill but it's a 1/3 shot.

Outing the tracker today was the most proscum possible time to do it.

 

[Jdietz43]

Jdietz43 So who you got for scum and why?

I'll be declining that for now, I'd much rather see how people react to this push, and more importantly: how you start to play once you've run out of pre-determined opinions about the game that you got while reading before getting a role PM.

 

[The Man From Delamar]

Everybody except J has already responded and they ain't given much. Are you "waiting" or are you stalling with your vote on your accuser? Cuz if their opinions on the push are what's gonna help you figure things out, you're obviously gonna have to ask em some questions. And yet you ain't. And this ain't the first time you've had a burst of activity and then stuck yer thumb up between them buttocks.

 

[Jdietz43]

'nother example of that whole other wavelength thing

But lookin at soup's play right from entry to twilight, I was just pretty dang sure there wasn't gonna be no track on N1. He was trapped in a tunnel like a Chilean. So while Maven's points are technically somewhat sound as far as Dietz askin for a tracker claim, think on it. Tracker hadnt outed a bingo so that was out. Dietz knew he was on almost-cleared status (and Town had already said so aloud if I remember it right). Outin' the tracker while there was

1. A chance he got rb'd
2. Obviously lacking a bingo
3. At worst able to provide a single clear to work around

...tell me how in the hell that's not better for mafia than havin no idea who he is goin into N2 and possibly gettin bingo'd?

In this scenario you get the 1-2 clears to work around and still end up with two people ya can try to ML. Kill tracker N2 to take out the doomsday fear and then play "appease the clear" in lylo. It's classic Epicmafia style goon play

Even if I'm wrong about Dietz, the bad guy remaining absolutely went along with the plan for the above stated reasons. Y'all are wrongheaded about "outing the tracker isn't proscum" just like y'all were wrongheaded about "Dietz is town forever".

But really, s'more food for thought. Was a solo mafia Dietz REALLY gonna survive it if he pushed ANOTHER lynch on ANOTHER town PR, and bound offa that into two mislynches? He got his hand caught in that cookie jar once, thinkin he'd wanna risk that again, esp with all Ive just said, is friggin naive folks

To reiterate: Picture a mafia Dietz not outin the tracker, and soup ain't the town's mad hatter and shot elsewhere N1

Lets say I don't replace in, Dietz enjoys the meatride and lynches Koops.

N2 maven either bingos him or investigates Orbo. Lets say mafia kills OrboTown or town J here

D3 starts with either a bingo'd Dietz, or maven and the clear he's about to out, leaving literally only the bad guy for lynch u less he tries a CC which would be weak comin from the guy that pushed the other town pr on D1. Awful odds there. Yeah he tries to hit the tracker with his N2 kill but it's a 1/3 shot.

Outing the tracker today was the most proscum possible time to do it.

Alright, lets look at it from my perspective then and I'll tell you what I saw.

We're coming into a day where I know I physically can't be at the keyboard much at all, with a flip I'm not wholly sure what to make of yet. People have correctly and vocally announced that they think I'm town (which is great because it's correct), and as far as I could tell there was no possible concocted scum push that could disprove that. (You've proven now that if you look at things from a purely outside perspective it's possible to assault that status, but at the time, I didn't think it was possible nor that anyone was going to try because it seemed foolish.)

That leaves: ClearTown me, Maven I think is town, and Orbo, J, and Koopa: all of which I can see scum potential from on varying levels, but no immediate clear connections to Kaladin except that J defending and then hammered him, and Orbo and Koopa have been largely aloof beyond raw vote analysis. Dietz is also the following, A) Lazy and B) Not at all thinking that there's a possibility where Tracker claims and doesn't have two innocents.

It's become clear from the first few posts that no one has anything groundbreaking to say about the flip either. So I go over in my head very quickly the potentials for having Tracker claim, which would be a very easy way to narrow the field and possibly immediately win the game which so far no one had talked about. I see a world where

1) Tracker narrows the field to minimum Three other players if he doesn't track me (I did not think Soup would jail tracker in any scenario)
2) If Maven is not Tracker, I have a very good idea where to go in the remaining three non-trackers (Maven/X/Y) even if tracker did track me and thus fmpov waste it since everyone already knew I was town (I doubted tracker would track me for that reason over the bigger nulls of J/Orbo/Koopa)
3) If Tracker does get a result and it's not me (which it shouldn't have been), WE IMMEDIATELY WIN

Under those circumstances when comparing the ideas of "Out Tracker Now" and "Never ask for a tracker out" the possibility of immediately winning the game, or narrowing it to a 50/50 even on the worst outcome far outweighed the inherent risk of a 33% chance that if we mislynch tracker could die and we get no clears at all.

Combine that with the fact that knowing who is clear is a fantastic way to ensure that you can take literally everything they say as their true opinion while trying to figure out a very close scum-pick toDay and I saw zero scenarios where I didn't ask tracker to claim.

Additionally: ToDay, CC is not an option for scum. We lynch both and win. Gauranteed accurate tracker claim.
Tomorrow, it is an option: CC and make it 50/50. Which is what we'd get anyway from a claim and clear even not assuming everyone is okay with saying I'm town4lyfe.

If I had 20/20 hindsight vision, I probably would have instead asked Tracker to out "If you have any results" instead of just period. But as it stands this was actually the worst case scenario, and I'm still feeling pretty okay about the decision. I'm confident if you were in my shoes, you'd probably want the Tracker claim toDay instead of potentially letting him die as well.

N2 maven either bingos him or investigates Orbo. Lets say mafia kills OrboTown or town J here

Bull****ty Side-Note: Your wording here implies you do not think I am mafia, or at the very least, are no longer very sure.