Just 'nother Mafia game | Game over, town wins

[Orboknown]

Also, yeah what J said. Im running 12 hour shifts starting at 5 am right now through next week and i had a major inspection today. Js got plays and **** hes been doing. Etc.

 

[#HBC | J]

Because i remember the d1 wagons off the top of my head?
Also, i don't think that its a bad answer. I trust in my dietz read being right. Mavens an un-cc'd tracker. The jailer has flipped. That means j and your slot are the only ones left to consider as scum today.

Actually, I'm gonna call objection on this bolded bit. Why do you have such a strong read on Ditzy? Like I think you have had this hard-on town-read for him for a while now and it has yet to be explained. You just have kind of been like "Ditzy is town." and been leaving it at that. It's actually the only significant thing I keep grasping at from you is your, what seems to be, undeterred faith in your Ditzy read that kind of looks incredibly lazy and just "I know he's town." vibes over "He looks town."

I have Ditzy as leaning town as well, but I am re-evaluating and making sure I am correct in that as well but I would not say it is solid 100%.

 

[#HBC | J]

Js got plays and **** hes been doing. Etc.

Definitely this. I'm also trying to switch majors during senior year because I have an opportunity to audition at Broadway level while working a half a million dollar show currently.

Busy busy, yet still have time for mafia and modding haha.

 

[Orboknown]

Dietz hasnt tried to manipulate anything. He hasnt tried to shotgun anything to the forefront. He's given me nothing to get negatives from.
Also,yeah if we ml wrong today I'm obv gonna relook at him but its not my priority

 

[#HBC | J]

Dietz hasnt tried to manipulate anything. He hasnt tried to shotgun anything to the forefront. He's given me nothing to get negatives from.
Also,yeah if we ml wrong today I'm obv gonna relook at him but its not my priority

Okay, I am being nit-picky analysis J at the moment, but you have a logical fallacy here. He was the one who came in while we were discussing and wanted to mass-claim the Tracker. Not saying I disagreed at all to the notion, but he has been dictacting a bit of thread control. The difference is that this game is pretty much being shared by Myself/Ditzy/Maven in what is being talked about until recently.

So you are just saying that he isn't a candidate for you toDay? That makes me feel a bit better, but at the same time I don't like the answer of just "Nothing negative as of yet captain." it seems like such an easy answer.

 

[Orboknown]

I mean
He didnt press it. It was more of "hey guys lets do this" and no one ever said no to it.
Yeah hes in my "dont worry about now" list. I'll take a harder look back in the hopefully near future, but 4am comes early and i need to get some sleep tonight

 

[#HBC | J]

Orbo, buddy, you are like my highest scum-read currently. I would hate myself for lynching you if you were town, but I have not been really well convinced that you are town as of late. A bit of an emotional appeal, but if you are town I really need you to help me out and point me at one of Delamar/Ditzy.

But for now, I am still comfortable with lynching you considering you are at the highest of my totem pole of lynch candidates. It's just a meh situation for me haha.

 

[Orboknown]

Meh. Fair.

 

[#HBC | J]

Regarding Delamar, I like the fact that he is trying to generate discussion, however, I would not dishonest if I did not say that a couple of his posts have struck a chord with me in some of the wording choices feels a bit off. What he has posted has not been enough for me to jump on the Maven/Ditzy train of thought that that slot is the one to go toDay, but I could see the angle being played there.

What are people's opinions of the posts thus far form Delamar?

 

[The Man From Delamar]

Because i remember the d1 wagons off the top of my head?
Also, i don't think that its a bad answer. I trust in my dietz read being right. Mavens an un-cc'd tracker. The jailer has flipped. That means j and your slot are the only ones left to consider as scum today.

Well dang, I'm just looking to see where your thoughts about the gamestate are. It seems pretty clear that you don't put in much legwork when it comes to rereadin' the game, and I know that with that, regardless of alignment, misinformation is sure to tread alongside it. I'm just curious about how you'd recant the events that previously transpired.

I mean a lot of us have been working haha. It's easy to come into a game and be like "wow, nothing is getting done, wtf guys?!" especially as a replacement. The thing is, I want to point something out. You are complaining at us for not looking at things currently when we have all done something you've failed to do yet which is point out a scum-read.

J - Orbo
Ditzy - Koopy's slot
Maven - Koopy's slot(?)
Orbo - J/Koopy's slot 50/50

Currently, we have all done work, it's just all of our eyes are on you for a majority of it and waiting to see what you do.

I'm currently rereading the game just so I can get a firm grip on the game before makin' a legitimate establishing post. You'll get it. I'm just treatin' the game how I feel it deserves to be treated. This game is littered with "feels" and "little to nothin'" and a severe drought in substantiation, so excuse me for not feeling like y'all townies are puttin' in the work needed to find scum. It seems like y'all are settlin and just dillydallyin', when realistically we have a dead scum and two town slots to work with while readin' up. It's not really difficult to give substance to your read at this point in time, especially considering the size of the thread.

Dietz hasnt tried to manipulate anything. He hasnt tried to shotgun anything to the forefront. He's given me nothing to get negatives from.
Also,yeah if we ml wrong today I'm obv gonna relook at him but its not my priority

Like, things like this are just soooo damn lazy! "Dietz hasn't tried to manipulate anything" has zero weight to it because of course he has we all have this is mafia. Hell, the Soup scum read is the thing he tried and SUCCESSFULLY manipulated and shotgunned to the forefront. The jailer being exposed? That was because Dietz manipulated us into believing that was the most important thing and shotgunned that sucker right into the forefront.

Now, whether or not you think that's scummy is up to interpretation, but still deserves an explanation.

I get that y'all are busy. I'm a pretty busy man myself. But in order to play mafia well, ya gotta dedicate time. If you can't, don't play. Nobody's gonna harp on ya fer not playin'.

 

[The Man From Delamar]

Regarding Delamar, I like the fact that he is trying to generate discussion, however, I would not dishonest if I did not say that a couple of his posts have struck a chord with me in some of the wording choices feels a bit off. What he has posted has not been enough for me to jump on the Maven/Ditzy train of thought that that slot is the one to go toDay, but I could see the angle being played there.

What are people's opinions of the posts thus far form Delamar?

By the way

I ain't Delamar. Delamar's where I'm from. That's like me callin' Orbo the army.

 

[#HBC | J]

See this is where I am talking at where things make me bite my lip regarding Delamar:

so excuse me for not feeling like y'all townies are puttin' in the work needed to find scum

This wording is just so weird and feels like he is slipping, but it honestly could just be the way he is describing things. It's just like the worst way to do as such.

The Man From Delamar : I will say that you are kind of sitting on a mafia armchair currently where you are just like "No one is giving me anything." and although this game has been passive your statement is false. I mean, hell, I pointed out exactly what you just did regarding Orbo haha. However, I want you to explain your wording choice.

That was because Dietz manipulated us into believing that was the most important thing and shotgunned that sucker right into the forefront.

You are the only one that keeps saying that Ditzy manipulated all of us into the tracker claim and also painting that situation in a really negative light. I feel your opinion is more "opinion based" over it being inherently scummy. You need to demonstrate how Ditzy forcing the tracker claim to be a scummy action because from all of our angles currently it looks pretty towny.

 

[#HBC | J]

By the way

I ain't Delamar. Delamar's where I'm from. That's like me callin' Orbo the army.

Then you should clarify and let us know what you would like to be called haha. It's the only distinguishing word in your name so that's what I went with.

 

[The Man From Delamar]

Then you should clarify and let us know what you would like to be called haha. It's the only distinguishing word in your name so that's what I went with.

I am

The Man From Delamar

But I suppose you can call me Del. I'd be a fool to think I can singlehandedly represent Delamar and do it justice.

 

[#HBC | J]

Actually, I think I've solved a personal puzzle.

I think I know the name I'd like to call you by, but I'm gonna let this continue on.

That's fine, I'll call you Del, for now.

 

[#HBC | J]

Oh if I am correct in my thought process, this has just officially become a game I am ready to play and battle hardcore now.

 

[The Man From Delamar]

See this is where I am talking at where things make me bite my lip regarding Delamar:



This wording is just so weird and feels like he is slipping, but it honestly could just be the way he is describing things. It's just like the worst way to do as such.

The Man From Delamar : I will say that you are kind of sitting on a mafia armchair currently where you are just like "No one is giving me anything." and although this game has been passive your statement is false. I mean, hell, I pointed out exactly what you just did regarding Orbo haha. However, I want you to explain your wording choice.



You are the only one that keeps saying that Ditzy manipulated all of us into the tracker claim and also painting that situation in a really negative light. I feel your opinion is more "opinion based" over it being inherently scummy. You need to demonstrate how Ditzy forcing the tracker claim to be a scummy action because from all of our angles currently it looks pretty towny.

You understand that the crux of your findin' me suspicious, or however you wanna call it, is my word choice, right? Call it what you want, but this is going straight back to the whole "feels" ordeal. You do understand your "feels" are what led you to needlessly tunnel Maven all of yesterDay, disregarding the hard evidence around you because Maven was making your jimmies get all rustled.

Like, what needs to be explained? How else can that sentence be interpreted? I'm not addressing scum when I say that, because scum ain't huntin' themselves.

And you seem to be mistaken. I've got plenty of material gathered up. Y'all ain't givin' yourselves nothin' cuz you've decided that a scum lynch means y'all get to settle for the moment, rather than proactively scower the thread and find the last lurkin' scum.

Regardin' the last paragraph, the bit you quoted was in regards to Dietz' treatment of Soup upon his entrance to the game. Say whatever ya want about it, that was manipulation and shotgunnin'.

However, him pushing us to out the tracker is [/i]absolutely[/i] scummy, but I'll get to that later.

 

[#HBC | J]

I'm pushing your slot due to the notion of your slot literally having nothing besides giving me minor minor positive vibes early on and the fact is your slot was a null. Everything you have posted sans your current Ditzy push has been entirely null about griping about activity and your disregard for feels. You are entitled to your opinion, I'll give you that much.

Delly, can you point out the Ditzy's treatment of Soup being "Manipulating/Shotgunning"? I'm kind of just intrigued that you are coming in and pushing for DitzyScum read and saying "Don't worry, I'll show you a thing or two." and until you do, it's being a bit blustery on your point until I see it come to fruition.

You are definitely more feisty then I remember.

 

[The Man From Delamar]

Can you do me a big ol' favor and stop jumpin' to conclusions, puttin' words in my mouth (or at least getting ahead of yourself with regard to the strength of things), and so on and so forth? It takes time to read a game, it takes time to establish a slot. You're comin' at me with this and that about your feels, about nullness, about... all kindsa stuff that is immaterial to hard evidence and, just, shoot. You're frustrating. Already. I was frustrated the whole time I was spectatin' this game and I'm not surprised that it started on literally my first interaction with ya.

Alright. Just think on this for a second.

Your playing to your "feels", the minutia you zero in on, and more led you to start lookin' at Maven literally from RVS onward. Is that untrue? You cramped his style all over his trap, and constantly thought aloud on it instead of just watchin' it play out and questioning him later. Any chance that trap had of working (and its value has been undersold, it might have worked) was completely ruined by the fact that Maven was bein' interrogated about you by it left to right and up and down.

And you just kept on at it. To the point that even when Kaladin was (obviously now, it seems) bein' opportunistic as all get out with the situation unfolding between Dietz/Maven/Soup ... just, why. Why did that go under the radar? Kaladin saw what he knew to be a townie come in after a replacement, make a big ol' wall post case on Maven, and got his "me too" on.

Then it stalled and he started to change his mind, and postured about until he had his options open to lynch either Maven OR Soup by end of Day. He was asking Maven to convince him about soup while still reiterating his mafia read on Maven. Just from spectating at the time it was the most obvious scum play I think I mighta ever seen.

And yet there ya were, and even when you started to look at Kaladin (finally), you just continued on pushin Maven, using your increasing suspicion of Kaladin as an excuse to further focus on Maven instead of pursuing those suspicions on the person that was drawin' 'em.

We barely got that lynch in, and you actually tried to take credit for it later on despite that nothin' you did helped that lynch happen other than an 11th hour vote switch. That vote switch is, by the way, one of the main reasons I find you frustrating instead of scummy right now -- that and PoE, since I got a strong scum read.

If you hadn't been so wrapped up chasin' down Maven for things like openly admitted that he was trying a trap and other weird ****... if you'd just followed the actual hard evidence that was goin' on around you, you might've been an actual force in helping get Kaladin lynched. As it stands your participation bordered on accidental, and then where were ya on D2? First thing's first, going straight back to the well that is Maven.

It's taken me alarmingly little time to establish that you focus on pointless things that don't give you much indication of alignment yet are capable of seeing actual scummy behavior. You just... don't seem to put the pieces together correctly. Or somethin'. I'm not sure, but your approach to this game has been bad, and I don't think you can deny that. It almost led town in some real awful directions.

 

[The Man From Delamar]

Like I don't even know what the hell you're gettin at with "you're more feisty than I remember", but it already seems like you're zoomin' in on me for minutia like phrasing "tells" and gutfeel garbage. Look at your own language. "I'm so ready for this battle". You're already building this into some idea that we need to "battle".

Here's an idea, maybe you don't know me, maybe I don't know you (other than that I find you to be kind of a mediocre player from what I've seen in this game), and maybe you're already doin' the same garbage to me that you did to Maven instead of just reading my posts and thinkin' about what I got to say.

It's obvious I got more I wanna talk about. Maybe you should stop jumpin' straight the hell down my throat and let me get to it.

Do you disagree that the way town is playin' this game has made it easy for scum to hide in the back row with samey stances and samey arguments/direction?

Person A: Obviously Numbnuts is clear, so I say we vote for Person B or Person C.

Person B: Obviously Numbnuts is clear, so I say we vote for Person A or Person C.

Person C: Obviously Numbnuts is clear, so I say we vote for Person B or Person A.

Find the bad guy in the above grouping.

 

[The Man From Delamar]

If I seem like I'm playin' the critic it's because I've been watchin this game since early on itchy to get in on things, and I had Maven town and Kaladin scum early on. Imagine how gad dang frustrating that'd be to watch as Kaladin's play deteriorated and nobody was reallin callin' him on it.

 

[#HBC | J]

You are exactly what this game needed. A good ole kick in the rear.

And I am infamous for poor D1 especially for connecting pieces, however, due to the uproar of the pity party patrol, I've begun playing D1 and trying to use my late-game methods in the early game. I'll admit it isn't working well, but I am stronger as the game goes on. I don't deny I'm a bad early game player, however, this is starting to get to that point where I get scary and the fact you are actually giving content makes me happy.

You also seem to be reacting poorly because you are assuming I am scum-reading you and coming at you as a scum-read. I am trying to get a read on you by pushing you and making you talk to me. I'm not talking about battling you, dude haha. I'm talking about battling this game because I've been a little stuck on deciding who is scum.

Again, I feel like you are reading my emotion and sentiments incorrectly which isn't surprising considering you are, if I am correct on your identity, because you were poor at emotions and strictly logical/machismo on a lot of things. We are two ends of the spectrum and disagree with how each other sees this game, but that's what makes it so much fun.

Sorry, I'm being a little fanboy currently, but know that I'm pretty content with what is happening even if it doesn't seem like that and that I am "misinterpreting" because that's not what is happening at all.

Continue along your way. I'm just going to be here watching because I feel You vs. Ditzy will finally clear up the clouds on the puzzle pieces. However, I will say you have MAJOR out of game bias happening and coming in after a scum-flip and saying "God he was SO OBVIOUS and ya'll are dumb" is just lol.

 

[#HBC | J]

Oh and to answer your question. I do agree and that is why I have been having a hard time.

However, I do think you are being a tad unfair in your thought process.

 

[#HBC | J]

The funny thing is you are still entirely null. It's your push I want because that will delineate the remainder of the game and my read on your slot to become solidified based on what approach you take and another thing.

Orboknown @Jdietz43 @Maven89

Ya'll need to get your butts in here. We finally have a game afoot. Hard stances would be incredibly appreciated.

 

[The Man From Delamar]

I still really don't know what you're talkin' about with the... "who you are" thing, but alright. If I'm misreadin' you slightly, alright.

Still, I'm absolutely, 100% makin' a strong point. You were "null" on Maven and just payin' a lot of attention to him early on. That never let up. Ever. And it led to you eventually making a scumread of him and never letting go. There is absolutely, definitely no way your little "feels" didn't influence the heck outta ya on that one.

As an observer without a slot in the game, I had an extra slot's worth of work to do as far as reading the game, and I still had Kaladin as scum and Maven as town early on. What he was doing seemed plenty obvious to me, and that statement goes toward both of 'em. I ain't some wiz kid at this game, so if I reached those reads through logic why the hell didn't the rest of the town?

Yeah I'm gonna take some amount of credit for havin' better reads early on. Was I around to post 'em? Nah, and that's why I acknowledge that this is null. But picture havin' those reads, watchin' the game helplessly for like weeks, then coming into this situation. Seein' my POV yet? Frustrated yet? Cuz I am.

 

[#HBC | J]

Well yeah my feels did influence me because it was the only thing of interest happening in the game and Kaladin is a very new player to our site so expressing mild concern where he could just be playing badly is a very fair point I had and stand by still. I mean and also to add credit to my point, I had a Kaladin/Maven scum-team and chose to look at Maven. Even Maven, himself, toDay has pointed out that my PoV does make sense. I mean you may be making a strong point, but do you find me scummy for that? If not, then why are you pushing it so hard?

No, I see your PoV because I've been in that position multiple times over the year. I just feel you are talking about it a lot when it really does not add much to the discussion besides just making your slot seem more angsty then it needs to be over the stasis of the game. I mean, it won't get players like Orbo to respond to rally, Maven is clear, and I'm pretty grounded in terms of being okay with my content this game, and then Ditzy.

I mean, we did reach the KaladinScum PoV because he got lynched yesterDay....haha. I just don't get why you are harping on the fact that we "almost" let him get away when we didn't and still got his lynch. Plus Maven wasn't lynched and claimed as well to be town so we are still in the same position you are in with a different view on who is scummy. I'll reiterate, You have Ditzy, Ditzy has you, Maven has you, Orbo has myself/you, and I have Orbo.

 

[The Man From Delamar]

I mean you may be making a strong point, but do you find me scummy for that? If not, then why are you pushing it so hard?

I already said that your 11th hour vote switch (with so little time to spare), in addition to PoE (by way of having a stronger scum read, and also some disconnections) mean that I don't find you to be scum. Frankly, a lot of the time on D1 I was toying with you being Kaladin's scum partner, given the way you were continuing to tunnel on Maven and using your supposedly increasing suspicion of Kaladin as a reason to push Maven harder -- but the last second switch all but put it to sleep, even before readin' again with Kaladin's flip.

I'm harping on it because I think bad play has driven a lot of the thread control and game flow. Do you disagree with that? Your read on Maven was bad. It started early on and it never let up until he claimed. From my point of view (not that I even wanted to delve this far into things yet, but that's what happens when people jump to conclusions and then question you on them -- even when their conclusion is correct, you come out talking about things you didn't want to yet), it was Jdietz as mafia that even made Kaladin lynchable yesterDay. An inactive, a mafia guy, one town read, and one last minute switch. That was the clumsiest accurate lynch I have ever seen and a lot closer to luck than anything resembling good play by the town.

Now with all that said, you conceded my point that everybody's bein' far too samey in how they approach the game and it makes it hard to see the bad guy when everybody's playin' so similar. Ever think that maybe I was hoping to see people dig into D1 -- and with 2 town flips (via soup and Maven) and a mafia flip that should have been a given -- and produce some of their own analysis? So I could see if anyone was comin' at things from the same page as yours truly?

Dietz showed a real gusto when a town PR came into the game with a terrible case on another town PR. Where was that same gusto to start off the Day? With all those flips I'd've expected the guy to go nuts and instead he's just kickin' it on the rear horse watchin' us poke each other. Just like he was for several IRL days while town slowly stalled out on the Maven/Kaladin issue.

I was hopin' to trigger up some analysis from other folks that would make me feel better about 'em, but obviously that wasn't in the cards because while mafia has no reason to read the game and look for hard evidence, town has apparently had very little desire to do it. For whatever reason. So now I got no choice but to just go with what I got, with little to no live play or interaction with folks, and if it ain't obvious why that's not quite ideal I dunno what to tell ya.

 

[The Man From Delamar]

This is a good time to say that in readin' (and rereadin', and rereadin') I've found some disconnections to the Kaladin slot that helped to bolster my pre-existing read. Seeing others possibly mention or dig up these same disconnections independently is somethin' I was hoping to see by encouraging the town to actually scumhunt and actually reevaluate things with hard facts.

Things that would've further helped everybody stop lookin so identical on D2 and let me feel more confident about how to move forward

But whatever. Ain't in the cards anymore, so on I go.

 

[#HBC | J]

I guess I am misunderstanding the point is that you are aggravated at all of the players and that the final scum is having an easy time to blend in (which at this juncture means you believe one of Ditzy/Orbo to be the final scum).

You are just really comfy on your armchair currently and I understand your PoV, yet I just need to wait for you to interact with the remaining 3 members of the game because I feel our conversation jointly won't attribute much to finding who is the final scum is for me besides me just talking with you to develop more of a read on your slot.

Here's what I'll do though, I'll re-look at the game again. Give me something to hone in on that you feel is important because I Have been re-reading through this game and a lot of the play in the game has been inherently null especially because Orbo has no content, your slot had none till now, and I haven't seen Ditzy as scummy.

I'm personally going to look at who handled the Maven/Soup situation to posture between Koopy/Ditzy/Orbo and if Kaladin left any breadcrumbs I did not pick up on.

 

[The Man From Delamar]

Look at Jdietz. He pokes at Maven (town PR) slightly on the whole Kaladin/Koops thing. Quite honestly, as a spectator readin' at the time I had the same impression Maven did that Kaladin seemed "pumped to find scum". This proved to be more and more incorrect as that first impression fell apart completely with Kala's actions, and in a hurry. Still, I got a more "active" vibe from what Kaladin was doing than Koops, whose contributions gave me little to work with other than a gutvibe.

I feel like Jdietz zeroed in on that too easily and on a basis of knowing Kaladin was scum moreso than actually having a reason to find differentiating the slots unreasonable.

Then Soup comes into the game and makes a push on Maven, and suddenly Jdietz has all the gusto in the world to offer. And pushes hard. Then ... barely a mouse's peep after Soup claimed to actually, actively drive the thread or what happens. Lots of posturing regarding Kaladin but no investigation, no pressure, just lots of strong statements and posturing. He never feels like he's trying to get a bead on Kaladin's actions. Things stall out and he votes Kaladin -- that gave me a bit of a townier vibe at first, but really, Jdietz was NOT pushing or investigating Kaladin at pretty much any point on D1. He made his one big push and coasted on its merits before and afterward.

I'll go into finer detail, but look at Jdietz and Kaladin as a unit instead of just doing your "feels" and "emotions" and "intent" thing. Think of how they could have been working as a unit and, imo, it all gels pretty nicely.

 

[The Man From Delamar]

With that said, I also encourage you to analyze some things on Orbo. It should go without saying that I feel I've found some disconnections, but he's the one slot that kinda dirts up my duster. I have what I think are my disconnections, but nothin' about the fella specifically doesn't allow for 'im to be scum with Kaladin, so I remain somewhat fluid.

I felt while readin' that you pushed a lot of minor points on Orbo; if he's your scumread, after 3 flips you should have enough info to produce a better idea of how he fits into this jigsaw as a bad guy. Dig?

 

[#HBC | J]

I'll oblige with that, however, I am probably going to stop with mafia for the evening considering I've spent already a couple hours on that and I have other matters to attend to.

Regarding Orbo, you've hit the nail on the head with saying "minor points" all of my points against Orbo are that because he hasn't done anything major, but I truly feel there is something wrong with his slot and reads as coasty/coat-tailing scum. I can go into that a bit more at another time with some quotes I can grab during the Ditzy re-read. I will say that since I am looking at Ditzy again, could you look at Orbo again in more detail? If you are having trouble, this should help you figure out your read on that slot a lot more as well.

Have a good rest of your night though!

 

[#HBC | J]

Eh, I honestly should just have my vote on him for now considering that is where I am looking and I want it solidified for the time being. Especially if I am going to continue to say his slot is the one that is the scummiest and actions speak louder than words.

Vote: Orboknown

Let's kick up the heat a notch.

 

[The Man From Delamar]

Vote: JDietz

This game has been a pretty hectic ride. As it stands, we've got one of our goons dead, as well as our jailer, and our tracker has been outed. At the moment, we have one mislynch we can play with before we go into a lylo situation, so we're treading on pretty thin water. Luckily, I've found out that Dietz is our final scum member. Unfortunately fer the rest of y'all, ya came into this Day with a pretty stubborn town read on the guy, with zero justification by any of you as to why. It was kinda just universally accepted. That gave 'em the opportunity to tell the thread that it was time to find the tracker, and essentially treated it as something that was GOING to happen, aware that nobody would likely bat an eye, what with the town read and whatnot. So now, he's found the tracker and has guaranteed that there ain't gonna be no Night Actions happenin' tonight. Damn shame, considerin' there was absolutely no need for that whatsoever. But we can't take that back, so I guess we gotta just keep lookin' forward.



Let's go back to the very beginning. RVS was goin' on and e'rybody was havin' a decent time settling into the game. All of a sudden, karthik king comes out with this post:

I say we lock Kaladin up, seems pretty scummy to me.

Now, the only thing Kaladin even did at this time was vote Maven for some silly RVS shenanigans. Nothin' consequential at all, it's not even something anybody mentioned because it was clearly RVS and clearly had nothing to really do with anything. With that being said, it troubles me that this is the next post:

Well, he kinda just shot in the dark with his vote lol

While this could be little more than just an RVS-esque response to karthik king, let's remind ourselves of how little experience CHP has. J even mentions that he was the only completely new player in the game later in the thread when he replaced out. I can very well see somebody who's extremely unfamiliar with the concept of mafia findin' that post by karthik to be an attack that CHP felt was unjustified, so he went in to chainsaw defend his bud.

In the following page, Kaladin and CHP have some sort of... strange interaction, to say the least.

Plus, why would they even feel the need to in the first place? They have all night to do that sort of thing rather than suddenly come out and rush with the lynch hammer

Wait, just re-read this. All night? Please, elaborate.

I haven't played Mafia in a while, but I was under the impression that after Day one it goes into Night 1 where Mafia decide if they want to lynch or not. That's what I meant.

...townslip or engineered scumslip?

Scumslip. Lol. Engineered townslip*

I feel like I've been in a similar situation before...

If adding to Koopa's point means it was a slip, that's some news to me

its a nightkill not a lynch lol

Shows how much I know about the game

I don't know 'bout you guys, but this is an extremely awkward little interaction to be havin' among these two. Not only does it just simply make zero sense, but it comes outta absolutely nowhere and feels like a completely forced interaction. It's pretty smelly.

But then, CHP replaces out of the game and JDietz replaces into the game. His very first blip of content comes in the form of this:

Is it stupid that I'm currently reading Kaladin's posts as, so far, the most townie? Not that he is townie because there really isn't enough to make that judgement, but as of right now I'm leaning most towards town on him.

You can have your wifom question for now, but better question: Why, and why isn't it TheKoopaKing? @above

This particular post struck a chord with me. This post, along with #95 and #97, consist of Dietz questioning over and over why Maven had read Kaladin's post as the most townie at that point in the game, and has a hard time lettin' up on the fact. The problem is, there ain't no question to be answered: Maven says there's no real substantiation about why Kaladin is feels the most townie to him, aside from enthusiasm. But that's essentially explained when Maven basically calls Kaladin a slight gut town lean. He even says Kaladin doesn't read as townie, rather, Kaladin just happens to read as the most townie. Dietz seems like a veteran player, so he should certainly be familiar with gut reads. Why is this one so special to him?

In a world where Dietz is Kaladin's scum partner, this play is easily interpretable as a means to get Maven to look like he's softly defendin' Kaladin, somebody who's definitely scum from Dietz' POV. It's a good means of putting Maven in a sticky situation down the road if the play calls for it that Dietz instigates.

Next, Soup joins the fray and finds himself making an absolutely laughable case against Maven. Objectively, it ain't hard to see how bad that case was. From where I was sittin', that post alone launched Soup into the dumb-or-scum category. But it seems like Dietz had one thing on his mind:

Vote: Soup

See, a 7th player always clears things right up rofl.

No but seriously. Soup rolled scum again.

Look me in the eyes and tell me you believe anything you're reaching for against Maven right now.

Your entire 124 is faked, and clearly looking for reasons to take initiative instead of actually reading thread. You're just posturing at the lowest hanging fruit in thread (the player who tried "a thing" and it didn't work at all).

Soup. Was. Scum. There was no doubt in the guy's mind. In fact, from that post to this post:

I see, you're applying your paragraph about Koopa's vote quip in #41 as well to #43's anxious comment. I'm discussing where you call #43 anxious, why I don't think you actually feel that way, and that you've dismissed an attempt to clarify it from Koopa once already (if the original explanation was enough, he shouldn't have had to ask). Even if you intended for them to be read together and deemed them "anxious" as a pair, I don't feel that's an observation that's coming from a place that's genuine over trying hard to reach for content. Combine that with the push and vote onto Maven and I get the sense that right from post 1 you're in it for thread control, not actually scumhunting or seeking understanding with those opinions. Why did you feel the need to call them such without acting on it with Koopa rather than just FoS?



Yes, that's the understanding. I pointed out that you started with touching on RVS posts, and moved into pushing "a contradiction" that I don't feel is a reasonable thing for an experienced player acting in Town's interests to get hung up on. Unless you're disputing my opinion to be untrue I don't think we misunderstood, I'm simply scumreading you for it.



Avoiding responding to my other points won't make them disappear. It takes two to tango, and I'd prefer a dance to a dropkick.


Request denied. Prove it to me through play, discussion, and intent, asking nicely gets you no gold stars I'm afraid. If you think it's explainable: explain them. If they're already explained: then chances are I've already outlined why I smell scum for it and that's not going to lead to a townread by being left alone.

Soup is just about the only thing JDietz even mentions. Some may certainly call it tunnel vision, but I'd say it transcends far past tunneling. For instance, J tunneled Maven. J tunneled Maven pretty hard. But, all the while, J was giving himself the opportunity to look at the thread and try to figure out reads on other players and discuss things with other players. He had interactions outside of his major tunnel. Dietz was dialed in from #139 to #193 on Soup being scum and Soup deserving to be lynched. Everything he said had to do with that for a whopping 54 posts total. Mind you, this game was five days in at this point in time, had no assigned deadline, and had a measly five pages worth of content. Yet, JDietz was definitely giving the impression that a Soup lynch was THE play to end all other plays. Finding scum outside of Soup did not matter to him at all during this time.

As scum, JDietz damn near completely forgot about town's need to have at least a decent read on every player in the game. His only concern was that his town alter ego "found scum" in Soup. He saw Soup's extremely bad play and pounced on it like a hungry cheetah. He's clearly got a grip on the fundamentals of mafia from this exhibition, but he did not execute a townie play. The only thing stopping Dietz from manipulating town and shotgunning Soup was the fact that Soup claimed jailer.

Actually, wait. I lied. Dietz DID have a moment where he looked for scum outside of Soup in between #139 and #193:

@Underlined: It's not a big mystery. I'll give you three guesses who I think Soup's most likely partner so far is here based on when and how Maven went from L-2 on Soup's vote to L-1 in Kaladins and where his read on Maven and Soup is currently wavering.

(But I'd like to keep that for D2 because I'm much more confident in Soup himself to start partnering him up for real)

If you're too lazy to look directly at the source, well shame on you. Nevertheless, this is Dietz hinting at the idea that Kaladin may be Soup's scum partner. This is a very non-committal way to go about it on top of that. However, he says he'd rather wait until Day 2 to do any sort of investigation on Kaladin because he'd rather get rid of Soup before he starts partnering 'em up. Let me remind y'all that THERE WAS NO DEADLINE FOR THIS GAME WHEN THIS WAS MENTIONED. Why in the world would a townie think that investigatin' a scum read of his is not worth his time, especially when he's done absolutely none throughout the entirety of the Day outside of Soup? As town, I know that I would not only continue to investigatin' other players while I grill my prime suspect, but I'd DEFINITELY interrogate the "most possible partner" of the player I think is definitely scum.

Speaking of Kaladin, he's flipped scum. Some of you may be wondering why I've yet to really mention him and how he's associated with Dietz. Well, that's because their association is... a severe lack of association. Seriously. From the moment Dietz replaces into the game, Kaladin acknowledges his existence twice, once if you don't count this however:

hm.

I don't make this stuff up. It's all in the thread. Sure, Kaladin played a bad scum game. Sure, Kaladin is probably very inexperienced. But for how bad his play may have been, he played the game of mafia and had concrete interactions with every single player. Except for Dietz. Until #307, the only mention of Dietz at all is a simple "hm."

Back to the jailer claim. Soup claimed jailer and the votes started comin' off of the poor fella. All the while, suspicion slowly but surely starts to creep up on Kaladin. JDietz' first post after the claim is as follows:

Unvote


Sorry bro, I'd say you were one good exchange away from reaching a better understanding, but that's probably a lie. I'd have unvoted if I had come back before Kaladins vote, but I don't blame you at all for feeling pressured, that was kind of the point of my push.

Well hot damn is that a backpedal if I've never seen one before. Dietz spent an entire page and a half to two pages grillin this guy and screaming to the high heavens about how Soup is THE play for the Day, and that there was no other way 'round it. It was go Soup or go home. Now that Soup claimed jailer and the case against him dissipated, the point of the push was for... pressure? Well if I ain't never seen somebody lyin' through their teeth I have now! Dietz, as previously mentioned, was not investigating AT ALL outside of Soup. There was no way that JDietz showed any sort of curiosity for anything else while he was pursuing Soup. To call that push anything aside from a push toward a lynch is complete hogwash. Pfft. "Pressure."

Then, 23 minutes later, JDietz comes out and posts this:

Alright, well with Soup's alignment settled here's how I see things:

I've been reading Maven as Town ever since the fallout of his "****garden" and especially for his reactions to Soup because they're exactly how I felt about all of his posts, and were created immediately upon Soup's entrance without hesitation. @can'tTagSoup if you want to go over if/why you think Maven is scummy I'd be okay with going back over it with a different mindset, but honestly everything I saw that you went over I felt was genuine, even if not correct. I honestly feel like we'd be wasting time if there wasn't anything more, but I would look at it if you had something new to say on the matter.

That leaves Kaladin/Orboknown/J/and Koopa, of which I'm going to mostly hand thread to for the evening so there's content to discuss.

I'm here for questions if anyone has some.

He explains his town read on Maven and how it's been established ever since the falling of Maven's ****garden, and especially with how he handled Soup. Considerin' the fact that Soup is confirmed to be the jailer, he goes ahead and hands THE REST OF THE CAST to the thread in order to discuss them amongst themselves. Mind you, this is coming from the guy who's only input has been an extremely weak early game question to Maven about Kaladin being his town lean, and his ferocious attack on Soup. He has done nothing else so far, throughout these 240 posts, and feels like handing the rest of the cast off for discussion ain't no big deal. Might as well just say "I'm just not going to comment on this" since it means the exact same thing. Of course, that'd be more directly bizarre rather than just being discretely bizarre. In his #188, he STRONGLY implied suspicion of Kaladin, so why isn't he looking to develop that, or at least expand on that, in any way shape or form. In #188, he pointed out Kaladin's wishy-washiness between Maven and Soup as a point of interest. Why is Kaladin not worth discussing to Dietz when he even pointed out Kaladin's opportunism to switch wagons ON A PLAYER WHO IS OFFICIALLY CONFIRMED TOWN? Overall, Dietz just wound up not takin' a stance aside from a Maven town read and offers zero direction, and this is how he sees things post-soup.

As the game goes on and the thread's suspicion of Kaladin grows stronger and stronger, Dietz officially mentions that Kaladin is his strongest scumpick:

I'll second this. There should be more than enough to work with now for some J opinions.



That's fine, it's why I specifically said "If you have anything else" since the rest is already stated. As you guessed, I'd side against Kaladin there, but overall I would also hesitate the least to lynch Kaladin out of any player so far if the day ended here and now. I think there's still a lot left to be seen in the day though, I still don't have a great idea of where Orboknown and J stand at large.

Looking past his shallow piggy-back of Maven's callout for J not giving opinions, Dietz officially mentions that Kaladin's his strongest scum read. But not only that: he insists that there is a lot left to be seen in the Day, and that he still doesn't have a good stance on where Orboknown and J stand. Not only is this contradictory to how he conducted himself when he was leading the lynch mob against Soup (remember how it just seemed like he didn't particularly care about how others faced up next to his top scum read?), but at this point, the thread has universally agreed that Kaladin is at least particularly suspicious. Dietz is late to the hootenanny and is try'na slip himself right in. Pretty slimy if you ask me.

Uh, I'm also going to request that you put that into complete sentences in your own words and NOT as the bullet point summary of someone else's bullet point summary of his play at large.

Folks, this is the very first thing your strongest town read directly said to Kaladin, HIS STRONGEST SCUM READ, yesterDay. A measly ol' parrot of what's been said multiple times before. If you'd like proof, go ahead and click the source link and just look back for that list. It's mentioned as an abomination on more than one occasion prior to this post.

I have my own theory that Day 1 ends with your lynch in 100% of the future timelines where you don't post something, so you should probably elaborate regardless. We have a deadline now.

This is the second, and I believe final, sentiment that JDietz says to his strongest scum pick. He mocks Kaladin by... just sounding like a tough guy without really doing anything. Great.

All the while, Kaladin was getting grilled hard for having stalled out the thread for a very long time, and he needed to deliver. And he sure delivered... Somethin'.

ALLLRIGHTY. This is just me writing as I think and reread from page 6. I just want to show my thought and scum hunting process. Everything I say is just something I'm considering, not necessarily a hard claim.



Is everyone in a agreement that Soup's push was bad but, in the absence of a cc, he's jailer? Cuz that's where I'm at right now.



Except this... This upsets me. Soup was very handwavey instead of refutey in response to Maven/Dietz. Soup seems EXCEEDINGLY scummy, but, again, no cc.



Orboknown What was the nature of this vote?



I actually dislike this. Why can't you see it as a bus attempt? Seems too early to rule out, but I digress.



Yeah... @TheKingofKoopas Have you, like, done anything even marginally significant this game? Koopa seems really coast-y to me.


Dietz push was essentially "hey, look Soup's being stupid! Bad points! Vote Soup!", yes? I dunno about Dietz' meta, but it seems like a reasonable push to make, scum or town.



Please, explain.



Can you quantify what lets you read his intent? I'd be inclined to agree, but at the same time, I'd like to see you concretely justify your claim.



;_;



While it may be contrary to my best interests, I must admit that this is accurate. Jscum? lel



This, however, is not. IIRC, Dietz and yourself were both pushing souplynch.

---------------------------

This game is weird.

Most of this is filled with a bunch'a malarkey, but take notice about the stark difference between this and literally anything else he's done so far: he mentions JDietz. It's as if... he was prompted not to so blatantly leave JDietz out! But how 'bout we go ahead and take a look at the content involving JDietz, surely this'll be what really shows whether or not it's him treatin' Dietz consistently or not:

- "Except this... This upsets me. Soup was very handwavey instead of refutey in response to Maven/Dietz. Soup seems EXCEEDINGLY scummy, but, again, no cc."

Merely mentions the existence of Dietz' case against Soup. Sure is more than a "hm," but realistically still nothing.

- " Orboknown What was the nature of this vote?"

Merely mentions Dietz by association, askin' Orbo why his vote was on him (even though, hilariously enough, Orbo CLEARLY showed the fact that that was some sort of error between either him or Gheb in the post immediately following that votecount).

- "I actually dislike this. Why can't you see it as a bus attempt? Seems too early to rule out, but I digress."

Merely mentions Dietz when asking Orbo about something that Orbo had absolutely clarified prior to this.

- "Yeah... @TheKingofKoopas Have you, like, done anything even marginally significant this game? Koopa seems really coast-y to me."

Merely quotes JDietz and goes off on a tangent.

- "Dietz push was essentially "hey, look Soup's being stupid! Bad points! Vote Soup!", yes? I dunno about Dietz' meta, but it seems like a reasonable push to make, scum or town."

Merely describes Dietz' push on Soup like a kindergartener and says that's something town or scum would do.

- "Can you quantify what lets you read his intent? I'd be inclined to agree, but at the same time, I'd like to see you concretely justify your claim."

Starts to maybe go somewhere as far as looking for where Dietz' intent leads, but this is really just another filler spot where it leads to absolutely nothing.

So overall... Kaladin sure acknowledges Dietz' existence a lot, but still doesn't really do any sort of playin' mafia with 'em. Hell, even in this post, he plays mafia with Maven, with J, with Soup, with Orbo, with TKOK... EVERYBODY except for Dietz! Why isn't he playing with Dietz?!

From there, there's not much else to discuss. Dietz capitalized on the fact that the deadline was approaching and tried lookin' like he was rallyin' everybody up to go ahead 'n vote for Kaladin (when realistically things would have likely unfolded that way anyway). Dietz has really done a whole lot of nothin' this game, and it's all been haphazard and inconsistent. His play lines up extremely well with Kaladin's, and I sincerely can't see anybody else being scum with 'em.

I understand that this post is mighty long, but I seriously implore every single one of you to read it in full if you'd like to engage in this properly. There is not a point that's here that I felt was worth leavin' out. If you're looking at it as if it's a nightmare to read, just imagine what it took to type it out.

 

[Orboknown]

Well dang, I'm just looking to see where your thoughts about the gamestate are. It seems pretty clear that you don't put in much legwork when it comes to rereadin' the game, and I know that with that, regardless of alignment, misinformation is sure to tread alongside it. I'm just curious about how you'd recant the events that previously transpired.

I dont remember every single vote and wagon sequence, which is what it seemed like you were asking me fof

Like, things like this are just soooo damn lazy! "Dietz hasn't tried to manipulate anything" has zero weight to it because of course he has we all have this is mafia. Hell, the Soup scum read is the thing he tried and SUCCESSFULLY manipulated and shotgunned to the forefront. The jailer being exposed? That was because Dietz manipulated us into believing that was the most important thing and shotgunned that sucker right into the forefront.

Now, whether or not you think that's scummy is up to interpretation, but still deserves an explanation.

i feel like you're taking the fact that dietz managed to hit the jailer with his d1 focus wayyyy too heavily. I can almost guarentee thats not a result of him magically knowing who it is and managing to get it thrown out in public.

 

[Orboknown]

I want to see dietz respond to that post.

 

[The Man From Delamar]

i feel like you're taking the fact that dietz managed to hit the jailer with his d1 focus wayyyy too heavily. I can almost guarentee thats not a result of him magically knowing who it is and managing to get it thrown out in public.

You can replace "Soup" with "the jailer" and ma' point would still stand. I get that Dietz couldnt just know Soup was our jailer, but it's still extremely frustratin' that he was basically the reason Soup was exposed the way he was. Things could'a gone a helluva lot different if Dietz approached Soup like a townie might've.

 

[Orboknown]

Thats making the assumption every townie should or does play the exact same way

 

[The Man From Delamar]

I'm sorry, I didn't realize there were townies that bolted after one particular scumread five days into a Day that has no deadline, wanting their neck around a noose no questions asked, with zero care about developing any other sort of read whatsoever. If there are townies that DO play like that, however, I'd be glad to teach them a lesson about how playing this game like that is unfathomably bad.

 

[Orboknown]

My point was related to the push itself, not what came after it (or didnt in this case i suppose)