Canada [Jul 26, 2014] B.C. Brawl Monthlies - Back in business, now featuring Smash 64! (Burnaby, BC)

[Lib3r4t3]

Character imbalance can be a part of a game. A game that has no defensive game makes the defensive game turns it into really careful high punishment gameplay. Smash DI only does so much.

Plus the game controls horribly, especially compared to the two others games it's only comparable to.

I'd really like to try striking all available stages for neutrals. If you want to do that, just ask me.

 

[Captain L]

by all available stages do you just mean the legal ones, or literally ALL of them?

 

[Asa]

i believe it's 1-2-2-1

Karupin, Liberate, and everyone else, do not call them "neutrals", call them starters.
even the stages that we have for game 1 cannot be called neutral

stages like fd and battlefield are common counterpicks for many characters

More stages = lessened ability for characters with advantages on a small set of stages to play on those stages

 

[Karupin]

2-3-1 is what me and BYosh think is fair....
Triangle.

Blue Yoshi edit (MWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!):

Liberate... you say smash 64 has no defensive side to it at all...

1. Play against Sheer Madness's Yoshi.

2. Play against any noob Kirby (like Karupin's... even though he's watching me type this as I'm typing lol)

 

[Asa]

why is it more fair than any other method?

 

[~Firefly~]

Wont be able to make it to this one. Unfortunately. (Money johns)

I'll be at the next one though.

I've been hearing this too much lately.. ;-;

Jake I need greyhound coupons. Gimme.

I don't have. =[

wow i didn't even know this thread existed

bowser suicide rule is dumb, and no pictochat but yoshi's island starter is lol

but ANYWAYS, do you guys have internet at your venue? since we're holding the events on the same day, it might be kinda cool to communicate throughout the event, maybe even with a video chat or something. since people know each other our scenes are kinda connected now, etc. etc. just an idea.

Thanks for reading the first page of the thread. =[ Luke came in here with similar concerns a few weeks ago, and I think I made it pretty clear in my posts that things like Pictochat being banned are being left that way for now because I don't want to bring a bunch of sudden changes in the ruleset compared to what everybody is used to, so I just added Lylat and CS to the starter list for now. I do agree with you on the Bowsercide rule; TBH, I pretty much ignored that one because our Bowser main isn't coming to the next event (=[) so it doesn't really matter yet. =3

The video chat idea sounds really cool, but I don't think we have internet at the venue. If we do, I can definitely get Skype going though. If you guys can give me a username to add, I'll do so, and I'll open it up on the tournament day if I can get internet access.

ya i agree with the bowser suicide rule since they can prevent themselves from dying at the same time now anyway

what issues do you have with YI?

Yes we have internet

*fingers crossed*

why is lylat and castle seige neutrals?
>.>
Triangle.

Well, you see...

i believe it's 1-2-2-1

Karupin, Liberate, and everyone else, do not call them "neutrals", call them starters.
even the stages that we have for game 1 cannot be called neutral

stages like fd and battlefield are common counterpicks for many characters

More stages = lessened ability for characters with advantages on a small set of stages to play on those stages

...Took the words right out of my mouth. (off of my keyboard?)

As for strike order, I normally end up doing 1-1-1-1-1-1 because I'm lazy, but I think 2-3-1 and 1-2-2-1 make a lot of sense too. I honestly don't have too strong of an opinion on this one, but if you feel one is better than the others, make your case and I will listen. It's good to have a default in case there's a disagreement, and I want to see what others have to say about it first before making a decision.

 

[Asa]

i don't think any of the methods are better than the rest, it's simply a matter of preference

 

[Lib3r4t3]

Using melee terminology. random stages, neutral stages, starter stages, all the same to me.

Rob, I really don't care to play SSB 64, which derives what my original post was about that started the anti-smash 64 discussion.

 

[T-block]

1-2-2-1 and 2-3-1 are definitely more fair than 1-1-1-1-1-1. i think 1-2-2-1 more fair than 2-3-1, but don't quote me on that. it's actually been determined mathematically, taking into account the ratio of striked stages to remaining stages. in 1-1-1-1-1-1 it's 100% clear that you do not want to be the first one to strike. in 1-2-2-1 and 2-3-1 it's not quite as clear.

i did read the first page, jake, and i didn't come here to argue lol. i just wanted to mention that i think it's funny how people constantly overestimate the randomness in pictochat, especially in relation to yoshi's island.

BUT since somebody asked... ^_^ yoshi's island has an absurd amount of randomness in it. not enough to ban it imo, but if it can be legal, pictochat can be legal. only 6 out of 27 drawings even have active hurboxes, and only 5 (including the diagonal line) really have potential to kill you. people think pictochat affects matches more than it really does, because they're expecting it to. positive confirmation, etc. etc. when something happens, they go "omg that's so gay see? pictochat sucks". on the other hand, whenever the ghost on yoshi's island saves someone (completely CHANGING the stock count; ie- huge effect on the match) they go "oh that's unfortunate" because yoshi's, outside of those ghosts, looks and feels like a "neutral". there's also the fact that the ghost SAVES people as opposed to KILLING them (even though it can kill lucas and ness quite often), so people aren't as outraged, but really, it accomplishes the same effect: it changes the stock count. so even though both stages affect the outcome of the match at about the same frequency (if pictochat does so more often, it's not much more often; and i'm not even sure it IS more often), people feel that pictochat commits a much more serious crime.

i mean... just play tons of matches on both of those stages and you'll see what i mean. if both players are taking advantage of both stages (ie- recovering to be saved by the ghost if you're not going to make the edge, and zoning with drawing-awareness on pictochat, even if the drawings aren't present), there won't be much of a difference in the frequency of this randomness.

tblock007 is my skype account. i'll try to remember to bring my laptop that day. asa says you do have internet?

 

[~Firefly~]

BC, meet T-block's walls of text. =]

I don't remember having internet access at the last tournament. IIRC, I've wanted to check things online from the venue before, but I was unable to because I couldn't get a connection. I could be wrong though.

 

[Asa]

is absurd really the right word?

I know that one of Sue's computers has internet

however it is a video rental store afterall, so I doubt they'd have wireless...

go and ask, jakey jake!

 

[T-block]

er... my skype is tblock007, not tblock7 >_<

Mm....absurd in that compared to what people usually think it is, it's significantly higher imo. Consider that only one of Pictochat's drawings, namely Diagonal Line can actually kill you at low percents. I mean, I've seen Lucas PKT onto the stage and then bounce off Bricks and get edgehogged, but it's really only Diagonal Line. The rest will only change the stock count if the victim is KO percents already. Moreover, an average 5-minute match will see only 15 of the 27 transformations, and once a drawing appears, it won't appear for the rest of the match, assuming 8 minutes. In order to get screwed over by Pictochat, you have to have the transformation appear within the timing window where you can't react in time to avoid it, which is not a wide window at all. You have to be at KO percents for a significant change to occur. Your opponent has to be in position to force you into a hazard within that timing window. A lot of conditions have to align for Pictochat to seriously change the game.

On the other hand, the Support Ghost appears many many times each match. It can save people at low percents from a gimp, and at high percents from failing to recover. It can kill Lucas and Ness. It can cause unexpected grounded up-b's from recovering characters that get them hit back out. The timing window where it can appear to affect the match is MUCH bigger, since it can do so whenever a player is above the area where it rises. If you would call "as random as Pictochat" absurd, then yes, I would say Yoshi's Island's randomness is absurd.

 

[Asa]

I don't think one stage element can be considered an "absurd amount of randomness"


Personally I'm all for pictochat
it's FD with gimmicks lollll

The transformations should all be known by the players, who would ideally space themselves and react accordingly to avoid the hazards

 

[T-block]

Does it really matter how many elements there are though? What really matters is how often it significantly affects the outcome of a match, no?

Anyways, don't get so caught up on the word "absurd". The main point lies in this statement:

If you would call "as random as Pictochat" absurd, then yes, I would say Yoshi's Island's randomness is absurd.

 

[Lib3r4t3]

When I'm close to dying, I rely on avoiding kill moves rather than strong DI, and those added killable hazards zone me bad, so they DO matter. What could be an extra 50% damage for me from weak traded hits or pokes ends up being nothing and not from my fault.

As well as the hazards causing damage and zoning players out bad. The ghosts might be able to give an extra life occaisionally or mess up a recovery, but the ness and lucas should also be aware that they might be over a ghost and therefore use their up b sooner or later, or lucas use a different recovery like pk fires or tether.

The other absurd change in the stage is the slanting platform in the middle which works as a powerful stage control if you have control of it, but either player can benefit from it and it matteres more on who has it than who benefits more. I don't really think that theres much to exploit with the slanting of it either.

That being said, I support Picto as a CP and Yoshi's as a neutral.

Edit: Demoting Yoshi's to CP would be like demoting Yoshi Story to CP because of randal the cloud and the shyguys that interfere with recoveries and projectiles. It's gonna happen, but the trade off for a greatly modeled stage from some minor things that CAN be taken advantage of anyway by either player isn't worth it to dump it into a non-neutral stage, especially when non neutral stages not only have simular flaws, but they aren't designed nearly as 'neutral'.

 

[Asa]

randomness can't really be quantified in the first place

it's either random or it's not

i'm for picto but jake isn't ready to introduce it to bc yet, we'll get it in time

along with pipes

 

[Kuraudo]

I'd be all for Pictochat if it were up to me. If ya know what I'm sayin'.

[EDIT]

Oh! And AJ, to answer your question in the other thread, I have a Premium Account, so I can change my title to something custom.

 

[T-block]

The ghosts might be able to give an extra life occaisionally

...but this is huge =\ That's what I'm saying... fundamentally, saving your opponent's stock is no different from taking yours. In the end, both lead to your opponent being one stock ahead of where they should be.

Randomness can be quantified - maybe not 100% accurately, but it can be. Remove all random elements from a trial run and get the results. Then re-introduce those elements and see how the results deviate from the non-random trial. That'll give you a measure of how much randomness something really contributes.

BY THE WAY, before anyone in BC gets all touchy like the saps in Alberta, I'm an arrogant jerk online, and I like to argue lol. I like debating like this, so don't take anything personally ;D

 

[Asa]

I'd be all for Pictochat if it were up to me. If ya know what I'm sayin'.

[EDIT]

Oh! And AJ, to answer your question in the other thread, I have a Premium Account, so I can change my title to something custom.

I watched all those mlg sonic matches on pictochat

and I wept

 

[Kuraudo]

You're gonna hate me when we face again.

And I'm not talking about Pictochat either.

 

[Asa]

I will time you out so hard

sonic hate 4 lyfe

 

[Kuraudo]

Ya sure you can pull it off? My matches reach the 5/6 minute mark now. I'm getting there.

 

[Asa]

mannn

you don't even know

ask jake how we play against each other

We LOVE to time each other out

cuz it maximizes our playtime <3

 

[Lib3r4t3]

I think anyone online won't get touchy. Just a debate.

it's not one random life save. It's not anywhere on the stage, it's just a particular part of the stage and it will only save you if it's coming up, whcih is just a fraction of time anyway from when it's either lowering, not there, or there already. If they were going to die (and not a character like Olimar or ivysaur) then they're not getting saved from zero, only from at least 50% unless the edgeguard is really good. If it's really good, it likely started at zero and while it didn't kill them, it stacked that damage, and your opponent got to the right place at the right time. I've been saved and I've seen others get saved, and the game just continues. I don't see how the low chance in an otherwise mostly fair stage rules it into cp while other stages with other minor problems, which is what I truly believe the ghosts to be, would remain neutral. Stage striking is there for a reason if you don't want your opponent or yourself to get that saving grace from the ghosts, if it's really that big of a deal as you say.

edit: tahts' such a **** move. And people got mad at me for using floaties because they take forever to end a match lol.

 

[Asa]

stop

calling

them

neutrals

 

[T-block]

Eh you'd be surprised xP

Anyways, that exact logic could be applied to Pictochat as well, so I'm not really sure what you're trying to say. Pictochat will only kill you if a certain transformation is coming up, and you're at high percents. If you get forced into a hazard after it appears, then it's not the randomness that screwed you over. I've been killed and I've seen others killed, and the game continues ;D

I don't really feel like getting into the definition of a starter stage at the moment, but you're making the incorrect assumption that everyone feels a starter stage is one that interferes as little as possible. A lot of people don't agree with that definition anymore.

 

[Asa]

it's annoying when ppl refer to stages that obviously aren't neutral as such

 

[Lib3r4t3]

I disagree. The spiked gates as well as the wagon on the halfpipe are two hazards that can certantly kill you after the stage changes. Furthermore, another difference is that those hazards, killable or not, zone you something that the ghosts don't, ghosts give more freedom even, while not putting the other player at a major disadvantage. It's more than just deaths, like I've said before, it's the extra damage leading you to kill percents if you aren't there already, it's the zoning they put on you, taking away your movement if say it's even a non-harmful one. All these things add more than just your average single fault than a seldom occuring potential action that can have just as great of consequences as the even greater chance of dying from picto.

Stop nitpicking Bryan, lol. I don't think I'm going to stop calling them neutrals any time soon. Just who I am, don't judge me bro.

I think the drama is added when people look at big walls of texts and assume that it was a fight rather than an argument or debate, either without reading them or reading them and assuming they were emotional responses.

edit: Oh, I guess I never said. You can confirm me for this event.

 

[T-block]

In a 5-minute match, you're going to see only three harmful drawings. How many ghosts are you going to see in a 5-minute match? Let's assume for a moment that something game-changing happens at EQUAL frequencies on both stages (ie- if someone is saved by the ghost in 5% of the matches, then someone is hurt/killed by a drawing appearing in 5% of the matches). Then would you really say Pictochat is so much worse for randomness? Why is it so much worse for you to be brought to death, than for your opponent to be saved from death? If it's the fact that the drawings do damage, then you're only brought closer to death, while your opponent is being saved from death. With that comparison, I would safely say I'd rather take the damage, than have my opponent saved from a sure death, wouldn't you?

 

[Blue Yoshi]

As far as Yoshi's Island ghosts go, back when Francis played brawl (and an old bowser main by the name of Nitro... who doesn't play anymore), they were in game 3, last stock. Nitro got a bowser claw, and the game was over. ... until the ghost appeared. 10 seconds later, Francis wins the match.

I've seen the ghost do stupid stuff. Just saying...

 

[SKidd]

I've been hearing this too much lately.. ;-;

Yeah, it seems some people go to one tourney, and bunch of others can't, and on the next tourney, the groups switch.

z0mg it moves
b/w gen 5 sprite?

As far as Yoshi's Island ghosts go, back when Francis played brawl (and an old bowser main by the name of Nitro... who doesn't play anymore), they were in game 3, last stock. Nitro got a bowser claw, and the game was over. ... until the ghost appeared. 10 seconds later, Francis wins the match.

I've seen the ghost do stupid stuff. Just saying...

I have seen a lot of Peaches survive with their floaty umbrella thanks to that ghost.

 

[~Firefly~]

Yeah, Brandon, 5-6 minutes is the minimum for serious matches between me and Asa. If we play on PS1, we expect timeouts.

Speaking of which, we played a match on YI yesterday, Yoshi vs. Olimar, and the ghost saved him twice on his first stock. =/ It almost saved him a third time too when I finally did get the KO.

 

[SKidd]

Hey, could we maybe change the locations of the tables? the isles are fairly small and...

I thought you could like move them and make it easier to get by?

 

[Asa]

Yeah, Brandon, 5-6 minutes is the minimum for serious matches between me and Asa. If we play on PS1, we expect timeouts.

Speaking of which, we played a match on YI yesterday, Yoshi vs. Olimar, and the ghost saved him twice on his first stock. =/ It almost saved him a third time too when I finally did get the KO.

Problem, Yoshi? :trollface:

 

[Captain L]

You should update the rules to actually include stage striking. Probably choose either 1-2-2-1 or 2-3-1 since they both seem equally fair.


and dedede is my new snake counterpick.

 

[T-block]

Dedede can infinite Snake now looool

Better get practicing

 

[Karupin]

ill come to this as long as im not the only islander coming
xD
so confirm me up ;D
Triangle.

 

[Captain L]

four inputs in one sixth of a second, how hard could it be?

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Wait... what's the infinite?

 

[T-block]

it's a d-throw chain grab that doesn't move