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JoeJoe's No Nonsense Thread.

joejoe22802

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Ask questions that aren't stupid as hell and discuss new ideas or strategies that aren't as old as time.

Everyone else you suck gtfo.
 

bubbaking

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This game's fairly old, though. What feasible strategies does anyone have that hasn't been somewhat explored yet? Not saying there aren't any, but this thread seems like it's gonna be pretty empty.....

But I've got one! What are thoughts on laying needles on the ground purposefully to create frame traps for spacees (and maybe others) who just come charging in?
 

joejoe22802

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That's the point of this thread, I don't want decisions that have already been had or threads that are impossible to look through. Also many things have not been explained in detailed accounts or viewed in certain perspectives.

In reference to the needle trap, I think it sucks. The only reason it ever works now is cause people don't think about it. If it became a commonly used thing, then sheik would be easy to punish for setting the trap, and the trap itself would be easy to avoid.
 

bubbaking

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You know what is worth discussing? Grab releasing spacees over the edge. They fall sooo far so FAST! I came across this accidentally the other day when I pummeled my Fox main smash partner too long after grabbing him over the edge of FD. They plummet like rocks when they break free, and from there, they're in an incredibly bad position.
 

joejoe22802

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Probably fast falled down, they could easily jump attack back on or shine stall. Nope still sucks.
 

Jolteon

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they can still DJ sweetspot

I am unsure of whether you can run off -> aerial before they can do this, however.
 

bubbaking

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Funnily enough, I was watching a set between KK and Unknown (I think at Impulse) and KK did the exact thing I spoke of. However, Unknown just DJ sweetspotted the ledge, but KK didn't move or anything, so I don't know if he could have done anything or not. He could have just been creating a positional advantage.
 

Jolteon

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DJ sweetspot is one of the safest options to get back to the edge. If you don't read it and they make it back, you have to respect them since Fox's ledgedash options are extremely good. So yes, you're correct, he waited since he wanted to maintain a positional advantage.
 

soap

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I've been all about fast falling nairs at various heights and angles, and I also got back into using needle approaches lately, combining them into full hop needle approaches just kinda started naturally working really well for me.

you do a rising full hop charge over falco's lasers or whatever, and if they happen to try and rush under your triangle of control, quickly store, fastfall, pop that nair in

a different kind of "needle trap"
 

Lovage

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joejoe what do you think of sheik players who have movement without substance? you ever see people wavedash back when they SHOULDN'T, or fulljump up to a platform when its BAD?

i watched a fox play earlier and it struck me how bad he was trying to copy top player's platform movements, but it really had no substance of THREAT. most of his movements were already countered by the good player he was facing.
 

soap

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I see that in newer sheik players all too much. They will get up on a platform and start spamming some variant of needles and aerials and I will immediately slip under and begin to trap them up there

"Substance of threat". ya I think about that alot actually. How is what I am doing pressing the opponent to where I want them?

I try to always have some form of immediate pressure on the opponent. From my short hop placement to a simple standing needle charge.
 

Lovage

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what if you can force them to shield on the platform for other reasons, land as fast as possible on the platform, and then space a ftilt? what if u didn't ftilt? wtf can they do when they're on that tiny platform?
 

joejoe22802

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Lol Lovage, I'm guessing you're referring to me. But yeah, its probably a general trend and not a specific decision. I think those type of defensive movements are a macro level problem that should be solved by a more specific understanding of position. Also I think when someone is on a platform it really depends on who you play, what decision you'll make. There's offensive (go on platform grab or tilt), defensive space for their aerial, halfway just do a spaced aerial. It really depends on the player and what the trends are for that match.

Also everyone should listen to soap, he's one of the most innovative sheik's. That Fast fall BEFORE aerial stuff is definitely 2013 metagame.
 

soap

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well sheiks and marths have been doing it with their aerials for years, just not as prevalent with nairs and b moves, but it does open alot of new possibilities

it's pretty amazing with mario's sh nair approach too.


I've also really noticed the staling effect on my shield pressure tho. A fresh Nair does 14, then decreases to 12, 12, 11, 10, 9... So I was definitely losing shield stun frames and subsequent followup options. So I figured I'd try to start incorporate aerial variety into my shield pressure for the simple sake of maxing it out.

I believe moves only stale when they hit the opponent tho, I don't believe hitting shields has any effect on them. Still trying to get clarification on that tho.
 

KirbyKaze

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Man, I tell people about FF > Nair in like 2010

soap steals it from me vs Fly

soap gets credit for innovation

**** Y'ALL

JK idc and I probably got that wrong anyway
 

soap

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I wish you told ME in 2010 lol


for years I've been doing awkwardly spaced fairs, weak front leg bairs, sometimes a laggy dair. When that nair has been there the whole time

It really lets me be more aggressive and versatile around shields. I don't want credit, I just wanna see more people start ****** with it.
 

soap

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ok, so reverse utilts

the second hit gives you 3 frames of hit stun, and it's got a 2 frame IASA cooldown window (literally almost nothing). So I think that is a +1 on shield if you land the back hit.

I think a good simple way to get this trap in, is after a shield crossup. Just dash thru a shield, wavedash back into the back of the shield facing away, and utilt. The utilt hitbox kind of leans back on the uphit anyway so this is good at catching jumps, and if they stay in shield and take the second hit, you can just turn around into a forward facing utilt or grab.

I tried just simply dash cancelling on the other side, or wavedashing past their shield, but the momentum carries you too far past. The reverse utilt has precious little range behind you. The wavedash back into them gets you close enough.

If the second hit connects the turn around utilt is a legit 3 hit combo in training mode.
 

bubbaking

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I'll bold the parts that of your post that confused me:
the second hit gives you 3 frames of hit stun, and it's got a 2 frame IASA cooldown window (literally almost nothing). So I think that is a +1 on shield if you land the back hit.
What I'm seeing is 3 frames of hitstun - 2 frames of cooldown = 1 frame advantage on shield. However, that could only work if hitstun = shieldstun. :confused:
 

soap

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o okay, I meant shieldstun in my original statement

hitstun is very character, percentage, and move dependent, but shieldstun is fairly universal
 

Jolteon

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I will experiment more with reverse utilt.

I have had the most luck with it as an edgeguard and vs shields (its great vs oos options), but I'd love to see it as a combo move.

:phone:
 

soap

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It has ridiculous true combo potential

I did reverse utilt to dash tipper usmash on peach at around 60%

2 hit death combo

Rev utilt to ftilt registered at nearly all percents

:phone:
 

Jolteon

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That's pretty hot.

Man I've gotta work out what percents it forces knockdown at, it seems really **** then. I did reverse utilt on a shield and I think that would be really effective when it forces knockdown.
 

soap

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It will almost never force knockdown. But the utilt to ftilt will knockdown at mid percents.

Doesnt really have to knockdown it combos so effortlessly.

Im worried about crouch cancels tho

:phone:
 

Jolteon

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I'm worried about cc too, hence why I was hoping it would force knockdown at a reasonable point. :c
 

soap

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it can be cc'ed well into the triple digits and there is almost zero stun when this happens

the fact that you recover so fast may let you block, or buffer a sidestep against cc grabs, in some situations maybe stuff their attak with your dsmash. CC shines is what I am concerned about mostly, because the reverse utilt has you pretty close to them. Not sure if within shine range or not.

Will test later.


Later:

Good news, it seems to tap em just out of shine range, and you can block the dtilt, or sidestep the grab, or sh over and space an aerial

you do need to space this already tiny move tho lol. get the full range of that little heel kick.

sh backwards over dtilt into a grab looks kinda cool. Like some Mortal Kombat teleport behind em ish. Forget which character did that. Raiden?



also, it knocks down (staled) at like 130. Sooner than I expected actually. That leads into an easy dsmash, unless they tech it or something.

tried testing when the first hit of fsmash knocks down, but I gave up at 200..




from like 30-60, you can link the utilt tap into a dash tipper usmash on jiggs, and an up air after that . Below 25, just grab.

sorry for the massive post. I'm just adding stuff as I test it.

dash back jc usmash is kind of hard for me tho. I keep usmashing in place half the time
 
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