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Social Jigglypuff Social Thread (read first post!)

MasterOfKnees

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I don't see it... I'm not even saying this because I'm biased, I'm saying this because Villager has nothing in common with Jigglypuff. Being an aerial character doesn't mean Jiggs has to go, otherwise Meta Knight would have booted her out. Villager doesn't have any moves similar to 'Puff either, no specials, no aerials, Villager is very distinct from her.

The comparison just doesn't work, and even if it did it doesn't really matter as Jiggs has been able to co-exist with Kirby for four games now, a character who shares a physical appearance, floatey properties, 5 jumps, a d-air, f-tilt, u-tilt, d-tilt and an F-Smash with Jiggs. This is really just trying to find any kind of excuse to boot her off, and I don't see why you'd want an already integrated character to get kicked out, it's not like she keeps other Pokémon away from the roster, Mewtwo and the gang will make it in if Sakurai sees it fit regardless if 'Puff is in or not.
 
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MasterOfKnees

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Only problem I see with Puff getting Fairy type moves, is that if we are using the info that we got about Greninja, that all they had to go off was his initial design. I doubt they had anything as far as what the Fairy moves would be name, or even what they would look like.
Moveset changes can happen later in development than character inclusions. The character list has to be solidified very early on to prepare for their development, not to mention get the rights for 3rd party inclusions, movesets and actual development on the characters most definitely happen much later in development, especially for someone like Jigglypuff who's likely to be low priority.
 
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D

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someone like Jigglypuff who's likely to be low priority.
Wouldn't that just outright confirm that her moveset will be the same? The reason why she's low priority is that a lot of her animations can be made by editing Kirby's animations. The reason she made it into Smash 64 to begin with is her model was easy enough to edit from Kirby's. I'm not saying it's impossible, but the lower priority she is, the less moveset changes she'll receive it seems like.

On the topic of moves; variant of Rollout that makes it stop at the edge? I'm sick of facing people who pick Puff as a joke, then suicide over and over by rolling off the cliff.
 
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Jigglypuff & Luma

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I didn't say that I thought the anime or when her retyping was announced mattered. In fact, I meant to express the contrary.

Fairy type doesn't justify Jiggs. It might help a little, though. I don't know if there is a way of saying at this point if that is or is not important at this point.

I think Mewtwo is more likely than Jiggs.
Did you know Jiggles is very popular in Japan, cutting her for them would be like cutting Captain Falcon for us
 

EbonyRubberWolf

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You can call this wishful thinking

But after playing smash run today, I'm rather convinced that Villager is taking the place of Jigglypuff, who must have hung up her jersey. He is insane in the air, he has incredible agility and can be airborne for a superbly identical amount of time. He is of similar weight, and has heavy hits similar to hers, and while he has no move akin to rollout, his general playstyle could easily fill her niche, in my opinion.

Her time is up guys. I know I'm not the original guy to come up with this theory, but I'm calling it.
Jiggs is certainly outdated. I wouldn't mind seeing her gone, as I never really enjoyed her inclusion and she's more than overstayed her welcome from a series as diverse and capable as Pokemon. She's not good in the games, she's not important in the anime anymore, she's not very popular overall and she was a laughing stock in Brawl. Make way for characters that people actually want. The only thing I'll miss is her niche: a fantastic aerial game built on incredible mobility.
Well, by that metric, we can safely discard Ness and Captain Falcon as well who were both garbage-tier. Ganondorf too. Out with the old, in with the new! It worked for Mewtwo, that's for sure!

... Come on, now. Jiggly is all but confirmed. Villager has a strong edgeguard game. Jiggly goes out and fights her opponents air-to-air offstage. They couldn't be less similar. No one can replicate her unique attributes.
 

Ghirahilda

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I think that these types of threads are forbidden, it can lead to flame wars, can't it? Nobody's replacing Jiggs, Villager is totally different from her...
 

pupNapoleon

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No where near Jigglypuff in the air. At all. The biggest similarity they share in air is a spinning Neutral Air. Villager has two jumps, not five. Therefore, no wall of pain. Recovery is gimpable. Up and Down Aerials hit inconsistently given the variable turnips (getting one results in a very weak attack). Forward and Back Aerials have good reach, but the projectile is small. He is a bit floaty, but so is Rosalina.
You can jump multiple times after you use the up special. I mean, more than three times.
 

Diddy Kong

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I thought Squirtle was very similar looking to Jigglypuff in Brawl, and would make a legit replacement, but I was wrong. And so are you.
 

MasterOfKnees

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Jigglypuff isn't really popular in Japan anymore to be fair, and certainly not anywhere near Captain Falcon popular. Jiggs hasn't been popular in Japan since the Melee times, that's why she also gradually faded away in the anime. She returned in Brawl regardless, so it doesn't really matter.
 

Rayopuff

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I would daresay Jigglypuff is more popular in Japan than Captain Falcon, F-Zero is not as popular as Pokemon, especially in Japan. The only thing Falcon has over Jigglypuff is the fact he's the star of his own franchise whereas Jigglypuff is just a character in a franchise that has literally hundreds of characters.
 
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Ultinarok

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Well, by that metric, we can safely discard Ness and Captain Falcon as well who were both garbage-tier. Ganondorf too. Out with the old, in with the new! It worked for Mewtwo, that's for sure!

... Come on, now. Jiggly is all but confirmed. Villager has a strong edgeguard game. Jiggly goes out and fights her opponents air-to-air offstage. They couldn't be less similar. No one can replicate her unique attributes.
Are you sure Jiggly is confirmed because it is, or because you want it to be? Veteran status is literally the ONLY thing bringing Jiggs back. But being a veteran worked for Mewtwo, that's for sure!

Jigglypuff is unimportant to Pokemon, and has been since 1998. Only her status as an original 12 makes people believe she'll come back. Charizard and Mewtwo are exceedingly popular and have been given newfound importance, Lucario plays pivotal roles in every generation he's in, Greninja reps generation 6 (the newest one), and Pikachu is obvious. Name one significant contribution Jigglypuff has made to Pokemon.

And the garbage tier thing is not a deal-breaker, it just adds salt to the wound. Characters like Sheik and Falco (less Sheik since Brawl) get many of their merits by being very good fighters in Smash. Jiggs used to be once upon a time, but not only is it fading from significance, its also fading from competitive popularity and is also WORTHLESS in pokemon competitive popularity and has been since generation 1. Even in-game, most people forsake Jiggs for Clefairy, whose better in literally every single way and is captured at the same point. Jiggs' only popular role was a season one nuisance. In-game, nobody even cared about it.

I'll concede that, for nostalgia's sake, it'd be cool to see it return as one of the original 12.
I'll also concede that it may get in on this alone.
However, I will not concede that it will DESERVE its inclusion.

At the end of the day, if the jig's up (pun intended) for a veteran, Jiggs seems among the most obvious to go. Even Lucas and Wolf are far more important. At least they're important to their series in some capacity. I've been playing pokemon for 16 years, and have never wasted time training a Jigglypuff, despite literally thousands of hours of play. That's how bad it is. And yes, how good or bad it is doesn't matter to Smash, but it certainly does hurt its usage, and how liked it is.
 
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Jigglystep

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I want see both Puff and Mewtwo make it into this game :039::love::150:
It's too bad that Jiggs apparently "takes up Mewtwo's slot", according to (some of) the Jigglypuff haters.. <.<

I feel the same way though; including both in Smash 4 would definitely create the perfect Pokmeon lineup and appease both sides at the same time.. :rolleyes:
 

Spinosaurus

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I would daresay Jigglypuff is more popular in Japan than Captain Falcon, F-Zero is not as popular as Pokemon, especially in Japan. The only thing Falcon has over Jigglypuff is the fact he's the star of his own franchise whereas Jigglypuff is just a character in a franchise that has literally hundreds of characters.
It's not even a contest, Jigglypuff is easily more recognizable.

It's an anecdote, but my sister still mistakes Kirby for Jigglypuff.
 

DarkKry4

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I would daresay Jigglypuff is more popular in Japan than Captain Falcon, F-Zero is not as popular as Pokemon, especially in Japan. The only thing Falcon has over Jigglypuff is the fact he's the star of his own franchise whereas Jigglypuff is just a character in a franchise that has literally hundreds of characters.
yeah, i think he got in because hes a retro character, not because of popularity. pretty much all the retro characters added in smash are the stars of their own series, but with Pokemon being such a popular series, they have the liberty to add a non-mascot character like Jiggs.

both characters are smash staples now... i'd be shock to see either of them missing.
 

DarkKry4

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this topic is a joke. the only character Jiggs is similar to is Kirby and even they have obvious differences.
 

silvR1995

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Yeah...

This is really reaching for it. I could see the logic behind Greninja replacing Falco, but this is a bit of a stretch.
Fox: "And to think Slippy was enough to handle..."
 

pupNapoleon

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You enter freefall after using the Up Special, I thought. Either way, Villager is not like Jiggs.
You can move upward. So, no. Left and right to. Multiple times. Technically, these are flaps, not jumps. I'm not sure howmany you have, but there are definitely at least three. After a certain number of these flaps, yes, freefall is entered. It was EASILY comparable to how far Kirby could have moved.

I thought Squirtle was very similar looking to Jigglypuff in Brawl, and would make a legit replacement, but I was wrong. And so are you.
All right; why? Because they are lightweight pokemon? Villager has comparable aerial to Jigglypuff.

It's a shame people just seem to read the title of the thread and not the content. I, luckily, have the power to change the title.
 

ToothiestAura

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You can move upward. So, no. Left and right to. Multiple times. Technically, these are flaps, not jumps. I'm not sure howmany you have, but there are definitely at least three. After a certain number of these flaps, yes, freefall is entered. It was EASILY comparable to how far Kirby could have moved.
But you can't attack either, right? If so it's just part of the recovery.
 

EbonyRubberWolf

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Wait what? Are their playstyles similar?

On topic, I could see Jigglypuff getting replaced, now that "Original 12" status has been proven fallible (Ness). But I think it would have more to do with there being a lot of Pokemon reps, and Jigglypuff already being a low-priority character in Brawl, than the Villager stealing her playstyle.
Has it? O12 is still unbroken as of now. Sure, there have been considerations, but it's never been acted on. She and the rest of the original cast have made the cut time and time again, so until it is broken, we can consider it a status that protects them. Just like there are talks to axe either Lucas or Ness(or were, at the time of the leak's writing), it's likely just due to precedent that Ness will be coming back and Lucas won't(if they arrived on a decision to make a cut in that regard).

Well... Jifflypuff has been outdated as the pokemon rep since ssb64. Even then she was not the best rep. Pokemon gets literally hundreds of new character options each game, and multiple new games (not just the main ones, but spinoffs which also bring new characters). It is immensely popular, and competition for spots is probobaly highest in this franchise.
Jigglypuff deserves to be retired.
Jiggly was a fantastic rep in the 64 days because Red/Blue were still quite recent and she was IMMENSELY popular just about anywhere you went. Then people figured out how to actually use her in Melee and she became a beast.

Are you sure Jiggly is confirmed because it is, or because you want it to be? Veteran status is literally the ONLY thing bringing Jiggs back. But being a veteran worked for Mewtwo, that's for sure!

Jigglypuff is unimportant to Pokemon, and has been since 1998. Only her status as an original 12 makes people believe she'll come back. Charizard and Mewtwo are exceedingly popular and have been given newfound importance, Lucario plays pivotal roles in every generation he's in, Greninja reps generation 6 (the newest one), and Pikachu is obvious. Name one significant contribution Jigglypuff has made to Pokemon.

And the garbage tier thing is not a deal-breaker, it just adds salt to the wound. Characters like Sheik and Falco (less Sheik since Brawl) get many of their merits by being very good fighters in Smash. Jiggs used to be once upon a time, but not only is it fading from significance, its also fading from competitive popularity and is also WORTHLESS in pokemon competitive popularity and has been since generation 1. Even in-game, most people forsake Jiggs for Clefairy, whose better in literally every single way and is captured at the same point. Jiggs' only popular role was a season one nuisance. In-game, nobody even cared about it.

I'll concede that, for nostalgia's sake, it'd be cool to see it return as one of the original 12.
I'll also concede that it may get in on this alone.
However, I will not concede that it will DESERVE its inclusion.

At the end of the day, if the jig's up (pun intended) for a veteran, Jiggs seems among the most obvious to go. Even Lucas and Wolf are far more important. At least they're important to their series in some capacity. I've been playing pokemon for 16 years, and have never wasted time training a Jigglypuff, despite literally thousands of hours of play. That's how bad it is. And yes, how good or bad it is doesn't matter to Smash, but it certainly does hurt its usage, and how liked it is.
Mewtwo's not a veteran because he never came back. He was one-and-done in the most literal sense, he didn't even make it back in as a Pokeball or AT. So that label holds no water for him. No one's a veteran until they've come back from a prior Smash. Jigglypuff had seniority since 64, and she's not lost steam since.

As far as popularity, remember Sakurai's words and methodology as far as listening to fanservice. Sometimes he indeed listens and includes a character based on them(Little Mac/Ganondorf/Lucario), and sometimes he decides to tell the fans to screw off and does his own thing(WFT/G&W/R.O.B.). Jiggly's veteranship is likely that. She doesn't NEED to do anything critical to the franchise(though she HAS), she's got Sakurai behind her.

With regard to her contributions, Jigglypuff was THE counterpart to Pikachu in Pokemon advertising in Japan. She was absolutely massive there, and her popularity still lingers on, even if it has diminished a fair amount. Even if Mewtwo had more hype behind him and people were fawning over the Legendary, he still got cut and Jiggly didn't. This says something about her staying power.

Brawl's nerfs were pretty harsh yes, but then look upon the gnashing of teeth from the Falcon/Ganondorf crew. She's not alone in that regard, and given that there seems to be a stronger focus on air-to-air combat off the stage this time around with the death of edgehogging, Jiggly's playstyle makes even MORE sense to return. She's been practically custom-built for Smash 4 as far as her prior moveset, and given Sakurai's like of the character(Sakurai bias confirmed!), it should be a surprise to no one familiar with Smash that Jiggly will be hiding in the wings, waiting for her unlock, and likely given a few new tools due to her re-typing.

Also, as far as training pokemon, have you even touched a Raichu in the last four gens? There're far better electric types, yet Pikachu, time and time again, pops up on that CSS.
 
D

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Replace Jigglypuff with a better Jigglypuff with a Rest that actually does something. Brawl's Rest was pretty bad.
 

Ultinarok

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Has it? O12 is still unbroken as of now. Sure, there have been considerations, but it's never been acted on. She and the rest of the original cast have made the cut time and time again, so until it is broken, we can consider it a status that protects them. Just like there are talks to axe either Lucas or Ness(or were, at the time of the leak's writing), it's likely just due to precedent that Ness will be coming back and Lucas won't(if they arrived on a decision to make a cut in that regard).



Jiggly was a fantastic rep in the 64 days because Red/Blue were still quite recent and she was IMMENSELY popular just about anywhere you went. Then people figured out how to actually use her in Melee and she became a beast.



Mewtwo's not a veteran because he never came back. He was one-and-done in the most literal sense, he didn't even make it back in as a Pokeball or AT. So that label holds no water for him. No one's a veteran until they've come back from a prior Smash. Jigglypuff had seniority since 64, and she's not lost steam since.

As far as popularity, remember Sakurai's words and methodology as far as listening to fanservice. Sometimes he indeed listens and includes a character based on them(Little Mac/Ganondorf/Lucario), and sometimes he decides to tell the fans to screw off and does his own thing(WFT/G&W/R.O.B.). Jiggly's veteranship is likely that. She doesn't NEED to do anything critical to the franchise(though she HAS), she's got Sakurai behind her.

With regard to her contributions, Jigglypuff was THE counterpart to Pikachu in Pokemon advertising in Japan. She was absolutely massive there, and her popularity still lingers on, even if it has diminished a fair amount. Even if Mewtwo had more hype behind him and people were fawning over the Legendary, he still got cut and Jiggly didn't. This says something about her staying power.

Brawl's nerfs were pretty harsh yes, but then look upon the gnashing of teeth from the Falcon/Ganondorf crew. She's not alone in that regard, and given that there seems to be a stronger focus on air-to-air combat off the stage this time around with the death of edgehogging, Jiggly's playstyle makes even MORE sense to return. She's been practically custom-built for Smash 4 as far as her prior moveset, and given Sakurai's like of the character(Sakurai bias confirmed!), it should be a surprise to no one familiar with Smash that Jiggly will be hiding in the wings, waiting for her unlock, and likely given a few new tools due to her re-typing.

Also, as far as training pokemon, have you even touched a Raichu in the last four gens? There're far better electric types, yet Pikachu, time and time again, pops up on that CSS.
All that being true, yes. I still won't concede that it deserves a slot over Mewtwo. Mewtwo is in literally every sense other than veteran status, a better candidate. Especially recently with Pokemon Origins, Mewtwo's new movie with Genesect, his new megas and his post-game legendary status in X and Y. AND him being the most demanded character worldwide. Jigglypuff simply can't hold a candle to all of that. All she has is a unique moveset, a diminishing popularity, and the O12 status.

And I have trained a Raichu. It was terrible until gens 5 and 6. Nasty Plot and its +10 base speed have helped it a lot. And even so, it has never been as terrible as Wigglytuff. Wigglytuff has literally been terrible since day one, and still is despite a new typing a special attack boost. Clefable has always crushed it out completely. Raichu at least has some unique appeals over other electrics (Focus Blast, Nasty Plot, good mixed attacking stats, Volt Tackle, Fake Out). Wigglytuff has literally nothing over Clefable except HP. But that's not terribly important.

Point being, Jiggs has SOME staying power, but Mewtwo SHOULD HAVE had that. He was intended for all three games, but tech limitations happened in 64 and time constraints in Brawl. Yes, Jiggs got in despite those time constraints, but she was far poorer received, and Mewtwo was sorely missed. That says a lot about their influence.
 
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EbonyRubberWolf

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All that being true, yes. I still won't concede that it deserves a slot over Mewtwo. Mewtwo is in literally every sense other than veteran status, a better candidate. Especially recently with Pokemon Origins, Mewtwo's new movie with Genesect, his new megas and his post-game legendary status in X and Y. AND him being the most demanded character worldwide. Jigglypuff simply can't hold a candle to all of that. All she has is a unique moveset, a diminishing popularity, and the O12 status.
Jiggly's still pushing Nintendo merch. She's in recent Nintendo advertising. Genesect is a Pokeball despite his popularity and power. Master Ball's appearance has worrying implications for Mewtwo as well. Sakurai values those who play uniquely, and Jiggly plays uniquely. Popularity plays very little in the roster, otherwise R.O.B. wouldn't have happened. WFT wouldn't have happened. Toon Link wouldn't KEEP happening. Miis were Sakurai's response to people bombarding him with various requests. His X and Y mega evolution(along with being the only legendary to do so) may actually hint at a Boss Battle/Boss Hazard deal, with the Mega Evolution being decided upon which platform you're facing him on(3DS or WiiU).

And I have trained a Raichu. It was terrible until gens 5 and 6. Nasty Plot and its +10 base speed have helped it a lot. And even so, it has never been as terrible as Wigglytuff. Wigglytuff has literally been terrible since day one, and still is despite a new typing a special attack boost. Clefable has always crushed it out completely. Raichu at least has some unique appeals over other electrics (Focus Blast, Nasty Plot, good mixed attacking stats, Volt Tackle, Fake Out). Wigglytuff has literally nothing over Clefable except HP. But that's not terribly important.
It is a tangent that probably shouldn't go forward, because we've also got characters in with no real connection to ingame stats(Ness/Lucas using moves they never learn, and not using their signature powers).

Point being, Jiggs has SOME staying power, but Mewtwo SHOULD HAVE had that. He was intended for all three games, but tech limitations happened in 64 and time constraints in Brawl. Yes, Jiggs got in despite those time constraints, but she was far poorer received, and Mewtwo was sorely missed. That says a lot about their influence.
What strikes me about this excuse is that if Mewtwo were such a big name and big figure in the game, why not finish him before going to the second string? He had a lot of work done, and that's not work that gets done in a rush. The implication I've always had regarding that investigation is that Mewtwo was actually moving smoothly along, and then they just gave up on him. Considering the sheer hype that came from Sonic, as well as the upgrades necessary to bring him into contention from the honestly lackluster performance and reception in Melee, they probably decided he wasn't worth it and just carried on. Considering we've had no hints that a character that was cut is returning, I have few reasons to think Mewtwo will be making his return to playable status.

It's undeniable reality that a lot of people get really salty and angry over, but nothing changes it. Jigglypuff may have been considered to be cut, but Mewtwo did get cut. O12 has more meaning that people afford it.
 

C3CC

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Why? Why even come here if you know all the jiggs supporters come here? It's like painting a target on your belly and running into the battle field
As far as I'm concerned, it's a discussion forum, and people are allowed to express different opinions, right?
 

Ultinarok

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Jiggly's still pushing Nintendo merch. She's in recent Nintendo advertising. Genesect is a Pokeball despite his popularity and power. Master Ball's appearance has worrying implications for Mewtwo as well. Sakurai values those who play uniquely, and Jiggly plays uniquely. Popularity plays very little in the roster, otherwise R.O.B. wouldn't have happened. WFT wouldn't have happened. Toon Link wouldn't KEEP happening. Miis were Sakurai's response to people bombarding him with various requests. His X and Y mega evolution(along with being the only legendary to do so) may actually hint at a Boss Battle/Boss Hazard deal, with the Mega Evolution being decided upon which platform you're facing him on(3DS or WiiU).



It is a tangent that probably shouldn't go forward, because we've also got characters in with no real connection to ingame stats(Ness/Lucas using moves they never learn, and not using their signature powers).



What strikes me about this excuse is that if Mewtwo were such a big name and big figure in the game, why not finish him before going to the second string? He had a lot of work done, and that's not work that gets done in a rush. The implication I've always had regarding that investigation is that Mewtwo was actually moving smoothly along, and then they just gave up on him. Considering the sheer hype that came from Sonic, as well as the upgrades necessary to bring him into contention from the honestly lackluster performance and reception in Melee, they probably decided he wasn't worth it and just carried on. Considering we've had no hints that a character that was cut is returning, I have few reasons to think Mewtwo will be making his return to playable status.

It's undeniable reality that a lot of people get really salty and angry over, but nothing changes it. Jigglypuff may have been considered to be cut, but Mewtwo did get cut. O12 has more meaning that people afford it.
I'll concede to that. But with all of the fans clamoring for Mewtwo so much (literally THE most requested character), it'd be a major snub for Sakurai to say:

"well, I know most of the known world who plays my game really wants this extremely popular, sensible, relevant Pokemon rep called Mewtwo that is clearly in the spotlight, has been more important than ever before recently, has already been in a previous game and has already almost made it in all three, already has had a moveset programmed by me, was so liked that he was programmed into a user-made Smash mod that I've acknowledged the existence of, from scratch, and would make many people happy to implement...but I personally like Jigglypuff more...well hey, its been in every game! That counts. Yeah, let's forget Mewtwo and put in Jigglypuff."

I'd like to assume Sakurai isn't that daft. But hey, if Ridley ends up being a stage hazard after all the teasing, maybe he is daft enough to allow that to happen too.
 
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EbonyRubberWolf

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I'll concede to that. But with all of the fans clamoring for Mewtwo so much (literally THE most requested character), it'd be a major snub for Sakurai to say:

"well, I know most of the known world who plays my game really wants this extremely popular, sensible, relevant Pokemon rep called Mewtwo that is clearly in the spotlight, has been more important than ever before recently, has already been in a previous game and has already almost made it in all three, already has had a moveset programmed by me, was so liked that he was programmed into a user-made Smash mod that I've acknowledged the existence of, from scratch, and would make many people happy to implement...but I personally like Jigglypuff more...well hey, its been in every game! That counts. Yeah, let's forget Mewtwo and put in Jigglypuff."

I'd like to assume Sakurai isn't that daft. But hey, if Ridley ends up being a stage hazard after all the teasing, maybe he is daft enough to allow that to happen too.
Sakurai's shown a unique stubbornness in his character selection. He's also shown he's essentially teflon to fan frustration, and is willing to forsake demand. Plus, he may know of Project M, but that doesn't necessarily mean he likes it. I could think of few greater insults that someone taking assets and putting forth the pretense of them doing a better job than the original creator.
 

pupNapoleon

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We can be realistic about why Jigglypuff has gotten in; from an artistic standpoint, Brawl was the harmonic cadence. It was the biggest, the boldest, the finale. No character was cut at that point, for that reason. It was evident in the sheer amount of playable information (old game demos, worlds colliding in the Emissary, the way the game was advertised as the final game as well as the Dojo itself).
This game is a negenesis. A rebirth, evident in the updating of many old characters, changing of old ties, and we will see that in the roster. Goodbye '
Jiggly's still pushing Nintendo merch. She's in recent Nintendo advertising. Genesect is a Pokeball despite his popularity and power. Master Ball's appearance has worrying implications for Mewtwo as well. Sakurai values those who play uniquely, and Jiggly plays uniquely. Popularity plays very little in the roster, otherwise R.O.B. wouldn't have happened. WFT wouldn't have happened. Toon Link wouldn't KEEP happening. Miis were Sakurai's response to people bombarding him with various requests. His X and Y mega evolution(along with being the only legendary to do so) may actually hint at a Boss Battle/Boss Hazard deal, with the Mega Evolution being decided upon which platform you're facing him on(3DS or WiiU).



It is a tangent that probably shouldn't go forward, because we've also got characters in with no real connection to ingame stats(Ness/Lucas using moves they never learn, and not using their signature powers).

What strikes me about this excuse is that if Mewtwo were such a big name and big figure in the game, why not finish him before going to the second string? He had a lot of work done, and that's not work that gets done in a rush. The implication I've always had regarding that investigation is that Mewtwo was actually moving smoothly along, and then they just gave up on him. Considering the sheer hype that came from Sonic, as well as the upgrades necessary to bring him into contention from the honestly lackluster performance and reception in Melee, they probably decided he wasn't worth it and just carried on. Considering we've had no hints that a character that was cut is returning, I have few reasons to think Mewtwo will be making his return to playable status.
Some valiant points; though if all were valid, I think we would have ended up seeing Diddy and Dixie as a pair. Obviously time was not entirely limitless. In fact, I remember the development being very much in a jam, delaying the game twice (once trying to distract us with a dojo date change by announcing Sonic). They may have had to eventually let him go, but I think it is because they were not aware of how missed Mewtwo would be. We have had no hints he would be returning because Sakurai wants it to be a surprise... like everything else. He wants it all to be a surprise, he in fact is trying to mislead us to just about every character possible. But I am also one to believe Ridley is nearly a confirmed character, I find his actions and psychology anything but sadistic.

Master Ball's appearance has worrying implications for Mewtwo as well. Sakurai values those who play uniquely, and Jiggly plays uniquely. Popularity plays very little in the roster, otherwise R.O.B. wouldn't have happened. WFT wouldn't have happened. Toon Link wouldn't KEEP happening. Miis were Sakurai's response to people bombarding him with various requests. His X and Y mega evolution(along with being the only legendary to do so) may actually hint at a Boss Battle/Boss Hazard deal, with the Mega Evolution being decided upon which platform you're facing him on(3DS or WiiU).
I dont think Master ball means much of anything to mewtwo. He could have been a pokeball before just as easily as he is masterball now. The master ball is not really a different item, it is merely an indication that the item is a higher quality definitely (similar to how the golden hammer was introduced last gen, yet in melee the hammer could still be a very fast hammer). Not to mention Pichu was not a pokeball. If anything not playable, Mewtwo would be a boss. I feel as though your statements that Mewtwo may be either pokeball or boss, is likely and worryingly both, and that it is because of a mega evolution and his legendary status (all of which being somewhat irrelevant to the point) make it seem your bias in him not being playable, rather than points to him not being playable.

As for popularity, Sakurai has explicity stated that representation for Pokemon is different than representation for other franchises, and relies on factors including popularity from things like the anime (which, for Mewtwo, includes a new movie, an old movie, a special, episode appearances, and a new short series).
Whether or not you think he will be in, his potential candidacy just cannot be ignored. I will repeat what has been said.

All that being true, yes. I still won't concede that it deserves a slot over Mewtwo. Mewtwo is in literally every sense other than veteran status, a better candidate. Especially recently with Pokemon Origins, Mewtwo's new movie with Genesect, his new megas and his post-game legendary status in X and Y. AND him being the most demanded character worldwide. Jigglypuff simply can't hold a candle to all of that. All she has is a unique moveset, a diminishing popularity, and the O12 status.
Also, Mewtwo IS a veteran. A veteran is not someone who has been in more than one game. A veteran is someone who has been in a game. Someone is not a war veteran if they go back to war, they are if they go to war.
 
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EbonyRubberWolf

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We can be realistic about why Jigglypuff has gotten in; from an artistic standpoint, Brawl was the harmonic cadence. It was the biggest, the boldest, the finale. No character was cut at that point, for that reason. It was evident in the sheer amount of playable information (old game demos, worlds colliding in the Emissary, the way the game was advertised as the final game as well as the Dojo itself).
This game is a negenesis. A rebirth, evident in the updating of many old characters, changing of old ties, and we will see that in the roster. Goodbye '
Sounds fine and all, right up until Toon Link showed up. AGAIN. With the same cloned moveset. New boss looks the same as the old boss.

Some valiant points; though if all were valid, I think we would have ended up seeing Diddy and Dixie as a pair. Obviously time was not entirely limitless. In fact, I remember the development being very much in a jam, delaying the game twice (once trying to distract us with a dojo date change by announcing Sonic). They may have had to eventually let him go, but I think it is because they were not aware of how missed Mewtwo would be. We have had no hints he would be returning because Sakurai wants it to be a surprise... like everything else. He wants it all to be a surprise, he in fact is trying to mislead us to just about every character possible. But I am also one to believe Ridley is nearly a confirmed character, I find his actions and psychology anything but sadistic.
Sakurai's dedication to secrecy is certainly frustrating when one tries to speculate his decisions. He certainly has a playful side to him, but again, he may not be interpreting responses the same as we are. Unless we get a Pyrosphere update, we'll know nothing about Ridley's possible inclusion. I think Sakurai thinks he's hyping up a Boss Hazard that he thinks is really cool. Plus, math and time are against Ridley as well as Mewtwo. It also doesn't answer a critical question regarding the sheer amount of data that Mewtwo already had in the game: Why didn't they finish their A-listers first? It makes little sense to just same 'time constraints' and instead seems to be a little easier to interpret when one imagines that they just gave up on him due to him not working, or being too difficult to rebalance, or just not thinking he was worth it anymore.

I dont think Master ball means much of anything to mewtwo. He could have been a pokeball before just as easily as he is masterball now. The master ball is not really a different item, it is merely an indication that the item is a higher quality definitely (similar to how the golden hammer was introduced last gen, yet in melee the hammer could still be a very fast hammer). Not to mention Pichu was not a pokeball. If anything not playable, Mewtwo would be a boss. I feel as though your statements that Mewtwo may be either pokeball or boss, is likely and worryingly both, and that it is because of a mega evolution and his legendary status (all of which being somewhat irrelevant to the point) make it seem your bias in him not being playable, rather than points to him not being playable.
Well, that's the point. Mewtwo seems to be more Boss Hazard than playable character material. Legendary, two Mega Evolutions(one per platform), generally hostile. It makes sense.

As for popularity, Sakurai has explicity stated that representation for Pokemon is different than representation for other franchises, and relies on factors including popularity from things like the anime (which, for Mewtwo, includes a new movie, an old movie, a special, episode appearances, and a new short series).
Meowth continues to be a Pokeball, yet I recall he had a rather impressive push for playability as well as several key spots in the show and movies.

Whether or not you think he will be in, his potential candidacy just cannot be ignored. I will repeat what has been said.
That's fair, but a zero chance is just that. For all the potential he may have, Sakurai's made the call back in Brawl that he wasn't worth it, and that's when his data was already fairly well along. What makes you think he's more likely when he has less assets now?

Also, Mewtwo IS a veteran. A veteran is not someone who has been in more than one game. A veteran is someone who has been in a game. Someone is not a war veteran if they go back to war, they are if they go to war.
A veteran comes back. If they don't, they're a casualty.
 

THE_MAAFIA

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As far as I'm concerned, it's a discussion forum, and people are allowed to express different opinions, right?
You can go ahead and express any opinion you want, I'm just telling you that expressing that specific opinion in a jigglypuff thread is not a good idea
 

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Sounds fine and all, right up until Toon Link showed up. AGAIN. With the same cloned moveset. New boss looks the same as the old boss.
I admit this irritates me to no end.
Yet, it is not the same thing. It is LINK. The main character of Nintendo's second biggest franchise.
Versus Jigglypuff.
I'm not sure what exactly you are trying to say.
Link has merit of returning even if he is a clone- he has merit to his series.
What exactly is your point? that he could have been trimmed?
Yes. By my standard, he would have been. But I can respect that in certain peoples eyes, it makes sense he would not have been. He has actual points in his favor, not just 'oh, he is a veteran.'

Sakurai's dedication to secrecy is certainly frustrating when one tries to speculate his decisions. He certainly has a playful side to him, but again, he may not be interpreting responses the same as we are. Unless we get a Pyrosphere update, we'll know nothing about Ridley's possible inclusion. I think Sakurai thinks he's hyping up a Boss Hazard that he thinks is really cool. Plus, math and time are against Ridley as well as Mewtwo. It also doesn't answer a critical question regarding the sheer amount of data that Mewtwo already had in the game: Why didn't they finish their A-listers first? It makes little sense to just same 'time constraints' and instead seems to be a little easier to interpret when one imagines that they just gave up on him due to him not working, or being too difficult to rebalance, or just not thinking he was worth it anymore.
I think you hit it much more intently when you say difficult to rebalance. Yet, this would all just be speculation. Why did he not come back? I don't know. Yet he did have a large amount of data in the game.

Well, that's the point. Mewtwo seems to be more Boss Hazard than playable character material. Legendary, two Mega Evolutions(one per platform), generally hostile. It makes sense.
Well, that is just opinion. I'd say the fact that Charizard has his Mega X gives huge credence to Mewtwo having Mega Y.

Meowth continues to be a Pokeball, yet I recall he had a rather impressive push for playability as well as several key spots in the show and movies.
Yep. But not any in the games. Mewtwo literally had it all. And of course nothing makes it a guarantee, of course.

That's fair, but a zero chance is just that. For all the potential he may have, Sakurai's made the call back in Brawl that he wasn't worth it, and that's when his data was already fairly well along. What makes you think he's more likely when he has less assets now?
For all we know, that call was 'delaying the game another three weeks is not worth it.' What isn't worth it? We don't know.

A veteran comes back. If they don't, they're a casualty.
Touche, word play. An idea, which a fictional character is, cannot die.
Or, he is just MIA.
 

EbonyRubberWolf

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I admit this irritates me to no end.
Yet, it is not the same thing. It is LINK. The main character of Nintendo's second biggest franchise.
Versus Jigglypuff.
I'm not sure what exactly you are trying to say.
Link has merit of returning even if he is a clone- he has merit to his series.
What exactly is your point? that he could have been trimmed?
Yes. By my standard, he would have been. But I can respect that in certain peoples eyes, it makes sense he would not have been. He has actual points in his favor, not just 'oh, he is a veteran.'
And Jigglypuff, a veteran with far more seniority than Toon Link, and a very active fanbase of her own in Smash, makes no sense to return? Come on now. She has merit in that she's fun to play, has resonated well with Smashers, has a unique moveset, and was a staple of her series(and continues to be used in its advertising!). There's no reason TL comes back that Jiggly can't point at and go "+1".

I think you hit it much more intently when you say difficult to rebalance. Yet, this would all just be speculation. Why did he not come back? I don't know. Yet he did have a large amount of data in the game.
Right, so why did it stop where it did? That's a mystery we'll never know the true answer to(unless Sakurai decides to write a book or something detailing the process of the games). It doesn't look like it was a rush job though, at least not to me.

Well, that is just opinion. I'd say the fact that Charizard has his Mega X gives huge credence to Mewtwo having Mega Y.
In the rebooted cartoon(a friend of mine forced me to watch it), Mega Charizard X goes unopposed to a non-Mega Evolved Mewtwo. One would think they'd try to hype that up for a 'super mega ultra final pokemon battle'. Yet they passed up that opportunity. Mega Mewtwo will likely have his day, but it will be as a Boss encounter of some kind(either battle or hazard).

Yep. But not any in the games. Mewtwo literally had it all. And of course nothing makes it a guarantee, of course.
Mewtwo obviously lacked something to be dismissed from playable status. I can't speak for certain what is was, but a quality was just lacking.

For all we know, that call was 'delaying the game another three weeks is not worth it.' What isn't worth it? We don't know.
You're right, we can endlessly speculate on the why, whether it was due to time constraints, lack of interest, or frustration with the character, but the fact of the matter is, Jiggly made the grade while Mewtwo flunked out. Twice.
 

pupNapoleon

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And Jigglypuff, a veteran with far more seniority than Toon Link, and a very active fanbase of her own in Smash, makes no sense to return? Come on now. She has merit in that she's fun to play, has resonated well with Smashers, has a unique moveset, and was a staple of her series(and continues to be used in its advertising!). There's no reason TL comes back that Jiggly can't point at and go "+1".
Er... Link is the staple to his series.
Jigglypuff is not even honored in her series.
Jigglypuff is irrelevant to everything but smash.
-100.

In the rebooted cartoon(a friend of mine forced me to watch it), Mega Charizard X goes unopposed to a non-Mega Evolved Mewtwo. One would think they'd try to hype that up for a 'super mega ultra final pokemon battle'. Yet they passed up that opportunity. Mega Mewtwo will likely have his day, but it will be as a Boss encounter of some kind(either battle or hazard).
A mega pokemon is supposed to need a trainer. The Mewtwo v Genesect movie just.... disregards this.
Which I'm sure you will somehow attempt to twist to seeming Mewtwo being a boss hazard, so be my guest.
To me the only point you have made is that Mewtwo did not make it into Brawl or 64, and Jigglypuff did.
Obviously to you, having been in a game is part of an eternally endless cycle which honors you the right to forever keep making it into the game.
Which I'd like you to take a moment to explain to me, because that sounds not only redundant but poorly in favor of a game itself.
 

Xenorange

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[/quote]Mewtwo's not a veteran because he never came back. He was one-and-done in the most literal sense, he didn't even make it back in as a Pokeball or AT. So that label holds no water for him. No one's a veteran until they've come back from a prior Smash. Jigglypuff had seniority since 64, and she's not lost steam since.

As far as popularity, remember Sakurai's words and methodology as far as listening to fanservice. Sometimes he indeed listens and includes a character based on them(Little Mac/Ganondorf/Lucario), and sometimes he decides to tell the fans to screw off and does his own thing(WFT/G&W/R.O.B.). Jiggly's veteranship is likely that. She doesn't NEED to do anything critical to the franchise(though she HAS), she's got Sakurai behind her.

With regard to her contributions, Jigglypuff was THE counterpart to Pikachu in Pokemon advertising in Japan. She was absolutely massive there, and her popularity still lingers on, even if it has diminished a fair amount. Even if Mewtwo had more hype behind him and people were fawning over the Legendary, he still got cut and Jiggly didn't. This says something about her staying power.


Brawl's nerfs were pretty harsh yes, but then look upon the gnashing of teeth from the Falcon/Ganondorf crew. She's not alone in that regard, and given that there seems to be a stronger focus on air-to-air combat off the stage this time around with the death of edgehogging, Jiggly's playstyle makes even MORE sense to return. She's been practically custom-built for Smash 4 as far as her prior moveset, and given Sakurai's like of the character(Sakurai bias confirmed!), it should be a surprise to no one familiar with Smash that Jiggly will be hiding in the wings, waiting for her unlock, and likely given a few new tools due to her re-typing.


Also, as far as training pokemon, have you even touched a Raichu in the last four gens? There're far better electric types, yet Pikachu, time and time again, pops up on that CSS.[/quote]
Has it? O12 is still unbroken as of now. Sure, there have been considerations, but it's never been acted on. She and the rest of the original cast have made the cut time and time again, so until it is broken, we can consider it a status that protects them. Just like there are talks to axe either Lucas or Ness(or were, at the time of the leak's writing), it's likely just due to precedent that Ness will be coming back and Lucas won't(if they arrived on a decision to make a cut in that regard).



Jiggly was a fantastic rep in the 64 days because Red/Blue were still quite recent and she was IMMENSELY popular just about anywhere you went. Then people figured out how to actually use her in Melee and she became a beast.



Mewtwo's not a veteran because he never came back. He was one-and-done in the most literal sense, he didn't even make it back in as a Pokeball or AT. So that label holds no water for him. No one's a veteran until they've come back from a prior Smash. Jigglypuff had seniority since 64, and she's not lost steam since.

As far as popularity, remember Sakurai's words and methodology as far as listening to fanservice. Sometimes he indeed listens and includes a character based on them(Little Mac/Ganondorf/Lucario), and sometimes he decides to tell the fans to screw off and does his own thing(WFT/G&W/R.O.B.). Jiggly's veteranship is likely that. She doesn't NEED to do anything critical to the franchise(though she HAS), she's got Sakurai behind her.

With regard to her contributions, Jigglypuff was THE counterpart to Pikachu in Pokemon advertising in Japan. She was absolutely massive there, and her popularity still lingers on, even if it has diminished a fair amount. Even if Mewtwo had more hype behind him and people were fawning over the Legendary, he still got cut and Jiggly didn't. This says something about her staying power.

Brawl's nerfs were pretty harsh yes, but then look upon the gnashing of teeth from the Falcon/Ganondorf crew. She's not alone in that regard, and given that there seems to be a stronger focus on air-to-air combat off the stage this time around with the death of edgehogging, Jiggly's playstyle makes even MORE sense to return. She's been practically custom-built for Smash 4 as far as her prior moveset, and given Sakurai's like of the character(Sakurai bias confirmed!), it should be a surprise to no one familiar with Smash that Jiggly will be hiding in the wings, waiting for her unlock, and likely given a few new tools due to her re-typing.

Also, as far as training pokemon, have you even touched a Raichu in the last four gens? There're far better electric types, yet Pikachu, time and time again, pops up on that CSS.
The only popularity Puff holds is because of Smash, she can't be compared to the mascot of the series.
 
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EbonyRubberWolf

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Er... Link is the staple to his series.
Jigglypuff is not even honored in her series.
Jigglypuff is irrelevant to everything but smash.
-100.
Is Toon Link a staple of his series? I'd argue he should leave before Jiggly's dismissed(neither is happening, but there ya go).

A mega pokemon is supposed to need a trainer. The Mewtwo v Genesect movie just.... disregards this.
Which I'm sure you will somehow attempt to twist to seeming Mewtwo being a boss hazard, so be my guest.
To me the only point you have made is that Mewtwo did not make it into Brawl or 64, and Jigglypuff did.
Obviously to you, having been in a game is part of an eternally endless cycle which honors you the right to forever keep making it into the game.
Which I'd like you to take a moment to explain to me, because that sounds not only redundant but poorly in favor of a game itself.
Well, if you're a member of the founding game, I would imagine that, yes, you get some special treatment.
 

pupNapoleon

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Is Toon Link a staple of his series? I'd argue he should leave before Jiggly's dismissed(neither is happening, but there ya go).
Alright, please do argue it. Because Link is the protagonist of Zelda. And jigglypuff is one of how many pokemon? Do you really want to make this assertation, that Link is less important to Zelda than Jigglypuff is to Pokemon?


Well, if you're a member of the founding game, I would imagine that, yes, you get some special treatment.
Well, I'd imagine you would not, because that is absurd. So, where is the argument? Getting in once means you stay in forever, regardless of everything?
 

EbonyRubberWolf

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Alright, please do argue it. Because Link is the protagonist of Zelda. And jigglypuff is one of how many pokemon? Do you really want to make this assertation, that Link is less important to Zelda than Jigglypuff is to Pokemon?
So Link and Toon Link are the same person now? In the same slot? I gotta get my eyes checked because I'm seeing two different models of the same character. Or do we get two copies of Link because he's that uguu-kawaii-special?

Well, I'd imagine you would not, because that is absurd. So, where is the argument? Getting in once means you stay in forever, regardless of everything?
Well, guess we can be rid of Captain Falcon then. He's even more irrelevant than Jigglypuff. Tell me, what's he done in the last DECADE that he gets to skip on into the roster time and time again? How about Sheik, why's she coming back? Last I checked OoT's done with.
 

pupNapoleon

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So Link and Toon Link are the same person now? In the same slot? I gotta get my eyes checked because I'm seeing two different models of the same character. Or do we get two copies of Link because he's that uguu-kawaii-special?



Well, guess we can be rid of Captain Falcon then. He's even more irrelevant than Jigglypuff. Tell me, what's he done in the last DECADE that he gets to skip on into the roster time and time again? How about Sheik, why's she coming back? Last I checked OoT's done with.

Seriously dude? Now you are just responding emotionally.

Pokemon has literally hundreds of characters added to its roster between each smash game- a generation or two of new 'mon, plus tons of spinoffs. In economics it has been described as a phenomenon, not even a video game, anime, etc, but a phenomenon, because of the insane fanbase it has caused, and the vast net of merchandise and arenas it plays a role in.
It has to factor in movies, tv, games, and a lot of history to each game to choose a representative.
It is single handedly the most difficult franchise to represent on Smash Bros for these factors.
Wasting a space on jigglypuff, who plays almost no basis in almost any of these markets above (games, movies, only the occasional Japanese plush) simply because she was in the first game is you failing to recognize the statistical data. Point blank.
If you are going to jump to the points to say Jigglypuff is the same as Captain Falcon and Link (toon link is a version of link, yes), I'm done. I'm simply done, because you are failing to recognize reason.
 

EbonyRubberWolf

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Seriously dude? Now you are just responding emotionally.

Pokemon has literally hundreds of characters added to its roster between each smash game- a generation or two of new 'mon, plus tons of spinoffs. In economics it has been described as a phenomenon, not even a video game, anime, etc, but a phenomenon, because of the insane fanbase it has caused, and the vast net of merchandise and arenas it plays a role in.
It has to factor in movies, tv, games, and a lot of history to each game to choose a representative.
It is single handedly the most difficult franchise to represent on Smash Bros for these factors.
Wasting a space on jigglypuff, who plays almost no basis in almost any of these markets above (games, movies, only the occasional Japanese plush) simply because she was in the first game is you failing to recognize the statistical data. Point blank.
If you are going to jump to the points to say Jigglypuff is the same as Captain Falcon and Link (toon link is a version of link, yes), I'm done. I'm simply done, because you are failing to recognize reason.
I can say the EXACT same thing about Captain Falcon and Sheik. Cap's most recent game was F-Zero GX. Dude has been a GHOST ever since then. In fact, his most recent game was SMASH BROTHERS BRAWL. At least Jiggly had action inbetween Smash titles! What's Sheik been doing, y'know since MELEE? Zelda get tired of the ninja look, 'cause I haven't seen her in almost TWO decades. Getting my drift yet? There is not a single point up there I can't apply to those other two.

Jiggly's developed as much a following in Smash as Falcon and Sheik have. You wouldn't have an entire playstyle dedicated to her if she didn't have impressive pull. Oh, and Falcon got nerfed in Brawl too! So when's he on his way out? Oh, wait, forgot, he's 'cool'. He's immune to the criteria you're trying to subject Jigglypuff to because....

.. Huh. Silence. I guess I can't think why he and Sheik get a free pass and Jiggly gets scrutinized.
 

Ghirahilda

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This thread is totally nonsense, we are DISCUSSING JIGGLYPUFF ON A VILLAGER THREAD! PLEASE SOMEONE LOCK THIS!
 
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