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Social Jigglypuff Social Thread (read first post!)

Desu~

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Im starting to get really tired of all those people saying that Mewtwo will definitively come back in smash.
That has to be the blindest faith that I've ever saw.
Mewtwo most likely to return? The guy's only appeared in Melee, and has most likely been replaced by Lucario in any case. It's as simple as that.
Your calls begging for Mewtwo are just getting more desperate than ever.
It feels like im listening to people who wants Geno all over again.
 

Princess Toady

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But is it the same situation ? One is very possible, the other isn't.

I think it makes sense for Mewtwo to come back, since he's such a popular request all over the world. I mean, if the developers listen to the fans, then he has a free pass.

However nothing is set in stone. I personally think/expect/hope both the returns of Jigglypuff and Mewtwo.
 
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Jigglystep

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I think Mewtwo is more likely than Jiggs.
Wh-wha..? Is this real life?

Can you at least justify that statement? Jiggs has a quite a few things going for her.. at least more than Mewtwo.
 

Hot Uncle Sparky

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Fairy type doesn't justify Jiggs. It might help a little, though. I don't know if there is a way of saying at this point if that is or is not important at this point.
It is important though, why would they ignore the new type that was like the biggest thing ever when it was new? they have a series mainstay who has that type and could use some improvement.

I think Mewtwo is more likely than Jiggs.
Care to explain?
 
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pupNapoleon

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Can you at least justify that statement? Jiggs has a quite a few things going for her.. at least more than Mewtwo.
Bold to ask someone for justification and then provide none yourself. Mewtwo only has one negative, and that was his removal in Brawl. Though this may be big, we dont really know why- two big theories are the petition signed by fans because he was ridiculously poorly represented in Melee, and the other being the developers running out of time.

Let us compare:

-Jiggypuff is relevant again due to Fairy Typing.
(though... how much she would be changed is up in the air, and if drastically... why keep her, just as a face?) Mewtwo is relevent again because of his Mega Evolution.
-Anime? Mewtwo all the way. Jigglypuff in comparison on this point means nothing. You can argue the anime means nothing to the representation, but clearly it/possibly the manga, matter more than anything else, given who has been in smash, and Jigglypuff being in at all (we could even broaden this to merchandizing I suppose, in which case both Mewtwo and Jiggs are a powerhouse).
-Games. Jigglypuff never mattered in any outside of smash. Mewtwo has in too many to count.
-Moveset wise, both do absolutely as little as possible to have represented the character.

So we get back to the point, Jigglypuff's only reason to be in Smash bros is.. because she has been already.
 

Jigglystep

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Bold to ask someone for justification and then provide none yourself.
Well, obviously by saying she has quite a few things going for her, I'm going to elaborate on said things in a counterargument.. I mean, his claim in itself was incredibly vague, so what do you honestly expect?

Mewtwo only has one negative, and that was his removal in Brawl.
Which means Jigglypuff has higher priority than him. Overall, Jigglypuff is a bit more iconic to the Pokemon series than Mewtwo.

-Jiggypuff is relevant again due to Fairy Typing.
(though... how much she would be changed is up in the air, and if drastically... why keep her, just as a face?) Mewtwo is relevent again because of his Mega Evolution.
With Jiggs' newfound relevance in the Fairy type, including her along with a largely Fairy-based moveset seems like a very effective way to represent the type as a whole, especially since she's already been in the previous games. Wouldn't you say such a significant representation is more important than a simple Mega Evolution? Lucario and Charizard (mostly Lucario) represent Mega Evolution just fine.

-Anime? Mewtwo all the way. Jigglypuff in comparison on this point means nothing. You can argue the anime means nothing to the representation, but clearly it/possibly the manga, matter more than anything else, given who has been in smash, and Jigglypuff being in at all (we could even broaden this to merchandizing I suppose, in which case both Mewtwo and Jiggs are a powerhouse).
Though it really doesn't mean much as you said, wasn't Jigglypuff more important to the anime than Mewtwo? She was a major recurring character and interacted with the cast throughout the first season.. Mewtwo was just in a movie. Sure, it was the first movie and all, but Jiggs was still a major character in the episodes.

So we get back to the point, Jigglypuff's only reason to be in Smash bros is.. because she has been already.
I lol'd. Even if that were the case, she's still more likely than Mewtwo regardless, considering Jiggs is more "relevant" to the Smash series itself.
 

Hot Uncle Sparky

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-Jiggypuff is relevant again due to Fairy Typing.
(though... how much she would be changed is up in the air, and if drastically... why keep her, just as a face?) Mewtwo is relevent again because of his Mega Evolution.
She won't be changed that much, I see just her final smash and a few moves changed, I think that's all she really needs.

-Games. Jigglypuff never mattered in any outside of smash. Mewtwo has in too many to count.
Mewtwo was an optional post-game Pokemon whenever he didn't have to be transferred, oh and his existence was hinted at a little in RBY. The only games I know where he did matter, are ones where he's just a (final) boss. Jigglypuff may not matter either, but she isn't that much lower on the ladder.

-Moveset wise, both do absolutely as little as possible to have represented the character.
Her specials are all moves she learn in game, by that logic so do Pikachu and Lucario. The only move "irrelevant" to her is her final smash, which could easily be changed like what other fighters have gotten.

So we get back to the point, Jigglypuff's only reason to be in Smash bros is.. because she has been already.
Yeah ok, don't you think that after getting in over Mewtwo in SSBB she is a higher priority? And why is being relevant to Smash itself not good enough?
 
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Halfhead

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Well, obviously by saying she has quite a few things going for her, I'm going to elaborate on said things in a counterargument.. I mean, his claim in itself was incredibly vague, so what do you honestly expect?



Which means Jigglypuff has higher priority than him. Overall, Jigglypuff is a bit more iconic to the Pokemon series than Mewtwo.



With Jiggs' newfound relevance in the Fairy type, including her along with a largely Fairy-based moveset seems like a very effective way to represent the type as a whole, especially since she's already been in the previous games. Wouldn't you say such a significant representation is more important than a simple Mega Evolution? Lucario and Charizard (mostly Lucario) represent Mega Evolution just fine.



Though it really doesn't mean much as you said, wasn't Jigglypuff more important to the anime than Mewtwo? She was a major recurring character and interacted with the cast throughout the first season.. Mewtwo was just in a movie. Sure, it was the first movie and all, but Jiggs was still a major character in the episodes.



I lol'd. Even if that were the case, she's still more likely than Mewtwo regardless, considering Jiggs is more "relevant" to the Smash series itself.
Just the fact that Mewtwo wasn't in Brawl and Jiggs was does not automatically give Jiggs more priority.

I just don't think that the Fairy type adds to likeliness.take that how you will. I do agree that Mega Evolution similarly doesn't help Mewtwo when Charizard and Lucario already do it, however.

No, Jigglypuff certainly had WAY less importance in the anime than Mewtwo. Mewtwo has had three movies starring himself while Jigglypuff is a dumb gag for less than half of a season and then thrown away. Even if she was, however, how about Meowth? Psyduck? Wobbafett? They were more popular and important.

Also, yeah everyone: Mewtwo is an optional sidequest post-game. Alternatively, Jigglypuff is an optional goomba-level enemy during the game that you probably miss entirely playing through the story. What's your point? Mewtwo is still the most popular legendary and the first end-game uber. Also, it's the most recent end-game uber as it does the same awesome thing in XY.

Mewtwo has been called the most powerful Pokémon until the introduction to Arceus. This gen, however, with Mega Evolution, Mewtwo once again is considered the number one most powerful Pokémon in the world.

So, if you think about it, the strongest Pokémon, the only actual Pokémon boss Red and Blue had, and the poster child for what a legendary is versus Jigglypuff. Good luck.
 

Swift Fox

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She's more important than Mewtwo when it comes to Smash Bros.

Ok... let's start with them being highly irrelevant, who will get a free pass? Jigglypuff, as part of original 12. Has anyone from O12 ever been cut? Nope. NOPE. Melee? Yes, however they're mostly clones and the original character who happen to not be part of O12. Brawl? Will most likely going to happen Ivysaur and Squirtle, those who are unique as well as Mewtwo and Jigglypuff, though, they still aren't part of O12 anyway.

Popularity on the other hand... It has nothing to do with Jigglypuff. Jigglypuff doesn't necessarily need to be popular today to make it in as she's one of traditional fighter of the O12. Mewtwo is never going to get a free pass for that one. If Mewtwo didn't make it in, then oh well. The O12 still hasn't broken.

That argument of yours will fit well for Nintendo All-Star Battle Royale (NASBR) if it's ever going to happen for all we care.
 

pupNapoleon

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She's more important than Mewtwo when it comes to Smash Bros.

Ok... let's start with them being highly irrelevant, who will get a free pass? Jigglypuff, as part of original 12. Has anyone from O12 ever been cut? Nope. NOPE. Melee? Yes, however they're mostly clones and the original character who happen to not be part of O12. Brawl? Will most likely going to happen Ivysaur and Squirtle, those who are unique as well as Mewtwo and Jigglypuff, though, they still aren't part of O12 anyway.

Popularity on the other hand... It has nothing to do with Jigglypuff. Jigglypuff doesn't necessarily need to be popular today to make it in as she's one of traditional fighter of the O12. Mewtwo is never going to get a free pass for that one. If Mewtwo didn't make it in, then oh well. The O12 still hasn't broken.

That argument of yours will fit well for Nintendo All-Star Battle Royale (NASBR) if it's ever going to happen for all we care.

Wow. Super smash bros IS nintendo all stars battle royale, I'm not sure if you've seen any ads for Smash Bros, but that's what it is.

As for the original twelve, explain to me how that as an argument. It is something that the fans came up with- it was never referred to in any way by Sakurai
Thus we are back to 'he cant be cut because she hasn't been yet.' This is using an opinion and reason-less statements as a point of logic.

In fact, I'd say it is fully void now. To start, if Sakurai had intended to make this game a serieswhen it first came out, or even a fighting game in the first place (rather than a Japan-exclusive Kirby game as was intended at conception), who knows exactly what roster we would have gotten.
But the fact that he flat out stated he thought that the third game would be the last, that he stated SSB4 is 'going in a new direction' from previous games, and that Brawl was evidently the climax of a trilogy (we can talk about this merit more if you would like), then he may make some very new decisions this game. Neogenesis, new beginning.

Please contest with 'original twelve' with any merit it actually carries, not just fan frenzy.
 
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Substitution

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Say, I have a better question.
If Jiggs wasn't important, then why'd she stick around?
Why did she get into Brawl?
 
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Swift Fox

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I was joking about NASBR :p I was thinking of alternate Smash Bros not relating to any Smash Bros traditions including O12, Master Hand, use % instead of hp gauge, etc...

I was just saying the O12 hasn't been broken yet so Jigglypuff has good chance to make it in NOT because of popularity thing and one who is more important to Smash Bros and has nothing to do with Pokemon.
 

Hot Uncle Sparky

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People, quit using the anime to defend your arguments, it does not and never did have anything to do with Smash.

As for the original twelve, explain to me how that as an argument. It is something that the fans came up with- it was never referred to in any way by Sakurai
Thus we are back to 'he cant be cut because she hasn't been yet.' This is using an opinion and reason-less statements as a point of logic.
The O12 has been canonically recognized in Brawl's events, they are indeed considered important enough be called the "perfect attendance crew".

Just the fact that Mewtwo wasn't in Brawl and Jiggs was does not automatically give Jiggs more priority.
It kinda does actually, even if it was only during Brawl's development.

Also, yeah everyone: Mewtwo is an optional sidequest post-game. Alternatively, Jigglypuff is an optional goomba-level enemy during the game that you probably miss entirely playing through the story. What's your point? Mewtwo is still the most popular legendary and the first end-game uber. Also, it's the most recent end-game uber as it does the same awesome thing in XY.
That's not an assumption I would recommend making.

So, if you think about it, the strongest Pokémon, the only actual Pokémon boss Red and Blue had, and the poster child for what a legendary is versus Jigglypuff. Good luck.
Umm, Jigglypuff is the obvious winner, you can ignore the facts all you want but let me remind you that they can both be added we've only had 4 rep reveals so far.
 
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Jellyfish4102

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The O12 have only returned twice. You know what they say. Twice is a coincident. Three times is a pattern.
 

pupNapoleon

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To start, another point I would want to make is that frankly, we don't really know exactly what Pokemon and the marketing team from Nintendo want for the game. Sakurai had stated his roster was made long ago, which means Greninja was added as a choice late, or more likely, that Game Freak had requested or pushed for Greninja to be the mascot in SSB4, as gen six was not released at that time.
We don't know how important this has been throughout the whole of smash bros series, but it is clear marketing has a decent amount to add to the games of smash.

People, quit using the anime to defend your arguments, it does not and never did have anything to do with Smash.
Especially untrue. Especially when it comes to Pokemon. The anime and manga are the reason Jigglypuff became popular, are the reason Lucario became popular (the movie was because of and then heightened it), they gave Mewtwo more renound, and Pokemon's Trainer's evolutionary line is based on the anime-given popularity more than anything else.

To deny the presence the anime has on the Pokemon series is to deny the entirety of what many non gamers even know Pokemon is.

Also- biggest argument of all, Pikachu. Pikachu was not the mascot without the anime and manga.

The representation of Pokemon has been entirely based upon the anime.

The O12 has been canonically recognized in Brawl's events, they are indeed considered important enough be called the "perfect attendance crew".
By events, you mean one singular event. That is a reflection of what the developers happened to have included, not a statement on the O12 having any true merit or stating power. There are many events, which are in fun. How this equates to the 'original twelve' being safe means nothing, all it means is that the creative team recognizes 'hey, we havnt cut any of them yet,' not 'we wont ever cut them yarghh!'
Most of the original twelve cannot even be cut! The eight that come unlocked are all vital to nintendo's allstarhood. Luigi need not be commented on. Falcon has enough games in his series to, at this point, give reason for him to stay in. Earthbound should have one for the same reason, and Lucas was never released in the US. The fact that Sakurai has been vocal about consideing cutting him is proof they are not invulnerable. If we are going to assume 'original twelve means anything,' lets add in some more fan speculation. "Jigglypuff was going to be cut." Do we know this? Of course not. Is her late inclusion into the Emissary a large part of fans doubt? Yes. There are more examples of this.
We cannot say for sure why certain characters were kept in with Sakurai's statements that they may not have been; but ultimately, if we are going to assume that Jigglypuff will stay in for an an unjustifiable claim of O12, then we can also make the same assumption that she was going to be cut, in the pinnacle of the original trilogy of Smash Bros.

It kinda does actually, even if it was only during Brawl's development.
That's not an assumption I would recommend making.
This is in reference to "Just because Jiggs was in Brawl and Mewtwo wasn't doesnt mean Jiggs has priority."
To that I say... we dont know why Mewtwo was taken out. Since we are running on theories, let us go with some that have tangible evidence- that fans petitioned for Mewtwo to be removed, and that he was in the forbidden seven and planned to be in anyway. Both are theories as to the exclusion of him, and these actually have some real non-circumstantial evidence. But still, we do not know.

The fact this game SSB4 has been slated to 'reworking the characters' (neogenesis) and giving them each their own mechanic only adds MORE benefit to Mewtwo's side, no character had been reworked by more than a move and minor tweaks prior to this game, so it makes more sense than ever to bring him back all new, as they may have considered that taboo in Brawl.

Therefore, to say Jiggs has more priority because she was in Brawl and Mewtwo wasn't is ridiculous. Roy clearly did not have higher priority than Wolf in Brawl. In fact, hasn't Sakurai mentioned that some characters would be cut, and being in the prior game does not indicate higher priority than new character?

It is indeed an assumption to say Mewtwo is still he most powerful legendary, but you know what, I would agree. He is not only a legendary, but he is the best thing Pokemon has to a villain aside from Meowth or Team Rocket/Plasma/etc, and he is in fact the original Uber. We can pretend that all gens are equal, but it is clear from consumers and game developers alike, Gen one is most iconic, most beloved.
Umm, Jigglypuff is the obvious winner, you can ignore the facts all you want but let me remind you that they can both be added we've only had 4 rep reveals so far.
Yes, they can be both be added, or neither, but seriously there is nothing making Jigglypuff anymore of a winner here than 'she has been in, so she will be in.' If we are comparing the two, that the only actual argument that I've not dis-proven in this post and in my comparison post, to which I've also added a plethora more reasons Mewtwo has additional benefits which Jiggs does not.
 
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aliensalmon

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I hope Jigglypuff returns! She's one of my mains in all three Smash Bros. games. Here's hoping for a 4th shot at Smash. :jigglypuff:
 

Team Plasma N

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While it would be nice to see Mewtwo come back, I somehow doubt that he has priority over Jigglypuff. Jigglypuff's been in Smash ever since 64, and it would seem a bit odd to add a deleted character in the next game. Mewtwo could potentially come back thanks to X/Y promoting him with his new mega evolution and the fact that he's been a popular legendary Pokemon for quite a while, even being requested by fans to make a comeback, but I'm pretty sure Jigglypuff has a higher chance of getting back in than Mewtwo does.
 

Halfhead

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Mewtwo being the most powerful legendary is not an assumption, it's a statistic based off of the fact that his base stat total when mega evolved in either form (780) is the highest bst in the entire Pokémon universe atm. Him being the most popular one is, on the other hand an assumption. An incredibly safe assumption, I think, but an assumption nonetheless.
 

Hot Uncle Sparky

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Especially untrue. Especially when it comes to Pokemon. The anime and manga are the reason Jigglypuff became popular, are the reason Lucario became popular (the movie was because of and then heightened it), they gave Mewtwo more renound, and Pokemon's Trainer's evolutionary line is based on the anime-given popularity more than anything else.
Even during Brawl days, Jigglypuff was long gone and didn't people hate her anyway? Today Greninja's only known significant appearance is the upcoming movie and Ash's Froakie potentially evolving somewhere in the future. Yet Jigglypuff still got in Brawl and Greninja became popular before the the anime got to show him off much, if the anime has an influence, it's not that large.

Also- biggest argument of all, Pikachu. Pikachu was not the mascot without the anime and manga.
Pikachu was the mascot before the anime, granted it did help.

By events, you mean one singular event. That is a reflection of what the developers happened to have included, not a statement on the O12 having any true merit or stating power. There are many events, which are in fun. How this equates to the 'original twelve' being safe means nothing, all it means is that the creative team recognizes 'hey, we havnt cut any of them yet,' not 'we wont ever cut them yarghh!'
I wasn't saying they were cemented, just noticed.

The fact that Sakurai has been vocal about consideing cutting him is proof they are not invulnerable. If we are going to assume 'original twelve means anything,' lets add in some more fan speculation. "Jigglypuff was going to be cut." Do we know this? Of course not. Is her late inclusion into the Emissary a large part of fans doubt? Yes. There are more examples of this.
Ness was to be cut in favor of Lucas back in Melee, the O12 may not have meant anything at the time due to one appearance and he only came back because they couldn't use Lucas. It's Ness coming back in Brawl anyway that I think Sakurai wanted the originals all in.

blah blah blah
Consider the following: Jigglypuff had no business in Brawl IMO, a lot of the fans didn't want her, had no role, and didn't add anything new to the game, she got in solely because she was an O12 and Sakurai still wanted them all together. Much like Ness her original status carried her to Brawl, I think it can work again. And even if it was because Brawl was thought to be the last and there are going to be cuts, it's still obvious Captain Falcon is back, Ness is back, so why have 11/12? like I said before, is relevance to Smash itself not enough? If you don't think of it this way, it's alright, you can say what you will and I'll leave it at that.
 
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Halfhead

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STOP WITH THE ANIME!! Please! I know it had baring back in the day, but no one watches it now! It has less than 10% of the viewership it once had.
 

OctiVick

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STOP WITH THE ANIME!! Please! I know it had baring back in the day, but no one watches it now! It has less than 10% of the viewership it once had.
Well GameFreak, the people who own Pokemon, have a decision or at least a large impact on Pokemon characters chosen for smash. It may sound crazy but there is an audience that watch the anime/movies without owning the games and decisions are made on what is hot in all three even today.
 

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The good thing with Jigglypuff is that it shouldn't be too hard to update her model and refresh a move or two, so she's got that going her way. Jigglypuff is a relatively easy character to make, no matter what anyone might argue, especially since they work from Brawl's data (which she is part of).

So even though it's true she's really not relevant anymore in the Pokémon series and even though she might not win unanimous support, no one can deny that this Pokémon has an history with the Super Smash Bros Series, and no one can deny her relatively easy addition (even if she must be play tested, she's nothing spectacular. I really don't think it'd be too much work to reserve a spot for her just to please the numerous people who like to play this character).
 

OctiVick

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I know people say she that she's easy to make and they could just throw her in without any real thought put into it, but I'm really hoping that they completely revamp her like they've done with Bowser and Pit. She is now representing a new type and I really want to see fairy moves incorporated in her moveset.
 

Princess Toady

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Yeah, a few moves, but you also have to take into account that her moveset so far is...well, I'm not going to say that it's well designed because err, there could be a few adjustments, it really makes sense. Pound is like, one of the first attack she gets, Sing is the first attack she gets, Rest works well with Sing as it emphasizes the fact that she's all about sleep, and while I'm not a particular fan of Rollout, she's kinda round and she's the Balloon Pokémon.

But I know exactly what you mean, she has no reason to stay exactly the same, especially now that she had the Fairy type. However, if it took too long to change her, they could easily make no change to her and put her back in. I don't really care as long as I don't lose any of my mains this iteration... No more Pichu & Mewtwo plz.
 

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So, i had mentioned this in the unpopular opinions thread but wanted to bring it up here too. Sorry if it was already discussed, I didnt feel like pouring through 11 pages to see.

How would you all feel about the idea of replacing (or evolving) Jigglypuff with Wigglytuff? Would Jigglypuff fans feel slighted? Would the anti-jigglypuff crowd feel that Wiggs would be too similar? I think it would be a great way of essentially preserving her while still adding a new face to the roster. Or would it really just piss everyone off?
 

Overtaken

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Oh, also, on the topic of 'new fairy type equals jigglypuff will return'; they added steel and dark type to the pokemon series between ssb64 and ssbm, but never bothered to add a steel or dark type to the roster. It may not mean as much as you think.
 

OctiVick

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Oh, also, on the topic of 'new fairy type equals jigglypuff will return'; they added steel and dark type to the pokemon series between ssb64 and ssbm, but never bothered to add a steel or dark type to the roster. It may not mean as much as you think.
Lucario is a steel type . . .

EDIT: misread nevermind

EDIT EDIT: They never really made too big of deal with those types, unlike how they were making a big deal with fairy and how they were retyping a lot of previous gen Pokemon like Jiggs
 
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Perhaps we are overlooking something. We have lucario and charizard. Both final smashes seem to be mega evolutions. It is very likely this true. If we included mewtwo, what would his final smash be? A THIRD mega evolution? And which one? X or Y? I know the same thing goes for Zard, but having three mega evolutions as final smashes seems like a lack of creativity on smashes part. If mewtwo makes it, his final smash probaly won't be a mega. This is IF he makes it. (I'd give that a 1% of happening.)

Assuming the rep cap is 5, Jiggs will make it. If not, some other not mewtwo pokemon will join. But agian, Jiggs has senority over mewtwo.
 

Overtaken

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Lucario is a steel type . . .

EDIT: misread nevermind

EDIT EDIT: They never really made too big of deal with those types, unlike how they were making a big deal with fairy and how they were retyping a lot of previous gen Pokemon like Jiggs
I don't know how old you are and/or if you were a big Pokemon fan back in the late 90's when the hype train for gold/silver was running at maximum hyper drive, but I was and I remember very distinctly how they were advertising (in magazines and such) how there was going to be two new types added. Honestly, that and 'Pikablue', are about the only two things I clearly remember about the pre-release hype of generation 2, which if my anecdotal evidence means anything at all, should indicate the new types were being considered a big deal even back then. That was actually the biggest new feature really, that and breeding (and held items... and shineys...) With X/Y you had a lot of hyped features, not the least of which was the 'mega-evolutions', new handheld system, fully rendered 3D for the first time. But when you really think about visible changes that would be relevant to corresponding Smash game, for representing Generation 2 in Melee, they went with Pichu. A silly clone of Pikachu. No new steel or dark type, which was about the only change that could have been relevant to Smash. We got Scizor as a Pokeball assist. But with Smash 4 and considering notable changes and expansions to the Pokemon themselves in X/Y, I think it is obvious now that the mega-evolutions were the main thing Sakurai felt compelled to represent in the playable roster. And lo and behold, we already have a confirmed fairy Pokeball assist, so that may very well be all Sakurai cares to do about it.
 

Overtaken

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Perhaps we are overlooking something. We have lucario and charizard. Both final smashes seem to be mega evolutions. It is very likely this true. If we included mewtwo, what would his final smash be? A THIRD mega evolution? And which one? X or Y? I know the same thing goes for Zard, but having three mega evolutions as final smashes seems like a lack of creativity on smashes part.
They wouldn't be identical final smashes though. They would all be 'transformation' FS's, but then so was/is Wario's, Sonic's and Bowser's. Plus Little Mac. They would have different abilities and properties when they 'Mega Evolve', so it's not as though they would be literal transplants of the same thing. I mean, come on, Sakurai would never do that.

LAND MASTER!
 

pupNapoleon

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Even during Brawl days, Jigglypuff was long gone and didn't people hate her anyway? Today Greninja's only known significant appearance is the upcoming movie and Ash's Froakie potentially evolving somewhere in the future. Yet Jigglypuff still got in Brawl and Greninja became popular before the the anime got to show him off much, if the anime has an influence, it's not that large.


Pikachu was the mascot before the anime, granted it did help.


I wasn't saying they were cemented, just noticed.


Ness was to be cut in favor of Lucas back in Melee, the O12 may not have meant anything at the time due to one appearance and he only came back because they couldn't use Lucas. It's Ness coming back in Brawl anyway that I think Sakurai wanted the originals all in.


Consider the following: Jigglypuff had no business in Brawl IMO, a lot of the fans didn't want her, had no role, and didn't add anything new to the game, she got in solely because she was an O12 and Sakurai still wanted them all together. Much like Ness her original status carried her to Brawl, I think it can work again. And even if it was because Brawl was thought to be the last and there are going to be cuts, it's still obvious Captain Falcon is back, Ness is back, so why have 11/12? like I said before, is relevance to Smash itself not enough? If you don't think of it this way, it's alright, you can say what you will and I'll leave it at that.

This is exceptionally frustrating, I think I'm just going to post all of my statements at once since I post A, and B is responded to. Respond then to B, and A is responded to.
Pikachu was not the mascot before the anime and manga, that is how he became the mascot.
Greninja was pushed in by Game Freak, most likely.
Brawl was the climax of the trilogy of smash, this game is a neogenesis.

Everything else, I skipped on. Certain threads on here are just pure war at this point. I'm not even against Jigglypuff, her supporters just seem to avidly want her in for absolutely no meritable reason EXCEPT that she has been in the past games.

I don't know how old you are and/or if you were a big Pokemon fan back in the late 90's when the hype train for gold/silver was running at maximum hyper drive, but I was and I remember very distinctly how they were advertising (in magazines and such) how there was going to be two new types added. Honestly, that and 'Pikablue', are about the only two things I clearly remember about the pre-release hype of generation 2, which if my anecdotal evidence means anything at all, should indicate the new types were being considered a big deal even back then. That was actually the biggest new feature really, that and breeding (and held items... and shineys...) With X/Y you had a lot of hyped features, not the least of which was the 'mega-evolutions', new handheld system, fully rendered 3D for the first time. But when you really think about visible changes that would be relevant to corresponding Smash game, for representing Generation 2 in Melee, they went with Pichu. A silly clone of Pikachu. No new steel or dark type, which was about the only change that could have been relevant to Smash. We got Scizor as a Pokeball assist. But with Smash 4 and considering notable changes and expansions to the Pokemon themselves in X/Y, I think it is obvious now that the mega-evolutions were the main thing Sakurai felt compelled to represent in the playable roster. And lo and behold, we already have a confirmed fairy Pokeball assist, so that may very well be all Sakurai cares to do about it.
I was quite a fan back then, and you remember it slightly differently than I do. Yes, the new types were important, but Most important? No. The absolute most important thing was that they were adding pokemon, that catching em all meant something entirely new, and that it set the trail for HOW each generation would be expanding.
The difference with Fairy type is that it happened after three generations where no types were added. That makes it a huge deal.
Mega evolutions, yes, equally so.

Also, just some debating notes: You mention gen six getting many new things, but your big points were the new system and the fully 3D models. Well, every gen but five was on a new console, and these may be in 3D, but that gen was in COLOR.
In addition, you state breeding, shinies, and held items as symbols of gen two (Id add in the time mechanic)... you rather admit gen two added a ton.

As for Pichu as representation, he completely signifies much of this: he takes on your own standard, and represents the idea of breeding, as well as the phenomenon of baby pokemon, and a new kind of evolution: happiness.
 
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Xavier :D

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I cannot believe there are people saying that the almighty Jigglypuff isn't coming back....I honestly think she's coming back 100%, and hey, Brawl had 6 pokemon (So we're looking at Pikachu, Lucario, Greninja, Charizard, Jiggs, Mewtwo) and I bet you anything Zelda will get a new Rep, (Link, Zelda, Sheik, Toon Link, Ganondorf, Tingle/Ghirahim) and to be quite Frank, I wouldn't be surprised if the Mario series got bumped up to six. I know what you're thinking, "6 is too much" well I say, Do you honestly think The Zelda series will come without a newcomer? I might just be a pacifist for saying that JigglyPuff and Mewtwo can co-exist, but I think it's very possible...
 
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Overtaken

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I was quite a fan back then, and you remember it slightly differently than I do. Yes, the new types were important, but Most important? No. The absolute most important thing was that they were adding pokemon,
I think 'that they were adding more Pokemon' was to be expected, almost like a sequel to a racing game coming out and saying 'it's going to have new courses!'. That's how I remember it, I don't recall any of us, myself included, being blown away or shocked that they were adding more Pokemon, we were interested in what kinds of Pokemon were being added.

The difference with Fairy type is that it happened after three generations where no types were added. That makes it a huge deal.
Mega evolutions, yes, equally so.
I think the Pokemon fan community felt a little underwhelmed by the announcement of the new fairy type though. The games are still primarily targeted towards boys, and "Dark" and "Steel" were exciting to hear for us, but "Fairy" type didn't seem to gain a lot traction. Everyone was busy obsessing and swooning over Mega-Charizard. Some 12 years later though, the fan base now consisting of people who only just started playing pokemon within the last generation or two, so the addition of the new type might not carry as much significance to those who haven't been with this series since it debuted, who are fewer and fewer in number as the years go on to be sure.

Also, just some debating notes: You mention gen six getting many new things, but your big points were the new system and the fully 3D models. Well, every gen but five was on a new console, and these may be in 3D, but that gen was in COLOR.
In addition, you state breeding, shinies, and held items as symbols of gen two (Id add in the time mechanic)... you rather admit gen two added a ton.
Sorry, let me clarify a little. Gen2 may arguably have actually added more staple and iconic things to the series then any other generation (assuming we aren't counting the first of course), but virtually all of it are things that had a more pokemon-meta significance, mechanics, etc. Let's separate the changes into things that did or did not have a relevance to roster additions in Smash. First, the things that didn't:

Day/Night cycle. Awesome concept at the time, could have been considered perhaps to be incorporated directly in the form of a Pokemon stage that alternated between day and night. You could argue that it could indirectly be represented as a playable fighter that (in the pokemon games) evolves based on the time of day. Even still, I don't think that particular sub-characteristic of the new day cycle was as hyped and emblematic of the generation as the new types were.

Breeding. As above, very important addition to series, but frankly, I don't think this was realized until sometime during the life-span of gen3. Back when Gold/Silver were released, I don't remember anyone particularly caring about breeding, there was no competitive scene or developed meta-game at the time, no one knew about EVs and IVs. We were all like, 10 - 12 years old still. Most people didn't have the internet (at least where I lived), so everything we discovered about the games were through rumors and that one kid on the block that got the magazine. So there just wasn't a robust scene of people playing competitively who could get all of the base stats at the click of a button on serebii and micromanage and plan out the perfect team of flawlessly EV-trained pokemon hatched from the egg. That was all a pointless effort back then, why do that when you can just go catch one in the wild? Breeding wasn't an attractive feature at the time. So again, this feature was huge, yes, but only in retrospect I'd argue.

Held items. Staple addition, albeit a little minimal at the time. Still, no real direct way of representing it in the Smash roster. Wasn't hype-train fuel either.

--------------------------
Ok, here are the features that would have been relevant to Smash, essentially, changes made to the Pokemon themselves. There was fundamentally four things:

Happiness. I don't think a lot of us knew about this pre-release either, but it did catch on fairly quickly as we learned it was what we had to do to get that bada** looking new Golbat evolution. Again, could only really indirectly be represented in the Smash roster by 'a pokemon that evolves through happiness', which they technically did do, but more on that later.

Genders. They could have featured this in Melee's roster if they wanted to as a pokemon that was exclusively one gender (which wasn't technically new remember) All in all, not something influencing Sakurai's decisions for Melee obviously.

Shinies. I'm not certain anyone knew about them until the game came out and we got to the Lake of Rage for the first time. Actually, shinies as we understand them today were really not a big thing back then because most of us didn't know any pokemon could be shiny, we figured the red Gyrados was a pallette swap that just applied to that one encounter, or if one of us did by some miracle stumble across one, and even notice that it was shiny:


That was us. But anyway, could be represented in the roster as color swaps, which may very well have happened, but as it applied to all pokemon, not something to influence Sakurai to choose any one particular pokemon for that reason.

And finally, the new types. This one should have been the one that got Sakurai's attention. It was the most visible, known and excitable thing to be added or change about the pokemon themselves. And there were a few good, Smash-friendly choices too. Scizor, added even more to already popular Gen1 Scyther. Sneasel. And (how awesome would it have been?) Tyranitar. The rest: too birdy, bally, or quadrupedally. But workable options for sure. Alas, Sakurai went with Mewtwo, who was a still very relevant Gen1 'mon and was intended to be in SSB64 anyway, so that was fair, and then of course...

There are many theories floating around about why this choice was made. A lot of people believe the Pokemon Company was (and still is) strong-arming Sakurai into featuring the pokemon they wanted to promote for the Anime, Merchandise, etc. I believe it was possibly some of that, but more over, Pichu was a convenient clone to flesh out the roster under the time and resource constraints. That said:

as representation, he completely signifies much of this: he takes on your own standard, and represents the idea of breeding, as well as the phenomenon of baby pokemon, and a new kind of evolution: happiness.
This, I don't believe is why he chose Pichu. Pokemon representation in Smash has always really been about that one or two pokemon that are recent and/or very, very popular. I don't think Sakurai is looking at the same details of the Pokemon series (in this particular case) as the fans of that series are, but rather, the big, broad details. One popular pokemon from the newest games, and one or two majorly iconic classics (Charizard, Mewtwo, etc). That's probably what he is primarily concerned with. Other new things are just filler or details at best, be it baby pokemon, breeding, or indeed even mega-evolutions. I think they are in Smash4 for rather incidental reasons. It's just plain obvious given popular pokemon that are bound to be in smash, were similarly bound to be given mega-evolutions, and it was just an obvious thing to do as a final smash, they were so perfectly analogous. But I don't believe Sakurai in any way, went out of his way to put those into the new smash.

So that leaves us with poor old Jigglypuff. As has been said, she arguably has just two things going for her. New type, which my thesis paper above discusses, and O12 status, which honestly, has mainly been contrived by the fans. The development of Melee was so short, hectic and expansive that there wasn't time to cut any of the original characters, only to fill up as much as they could muster to make it big and impressive. Next, there is only Brawl. And maybe the O12 all surviving the second transition means something, or maybe Sakurai didn't feel any of them needed to be cut at that particular time. But of the O12, Jigglypuff is the least iconic as a character, least important to her franchise and has the most competition within her franchise by a long shot, and finally, is the singly least popular character in Smash entirely as of Brawl (if I remember correctly). It's just a matter of whether Sakurai places the same sentiment on the original cast as some fans so, or if he is really thinking about the status of the characters as "all-stars".
 

andalsoandy

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An important counter-argument a lot of people are forgetting to bring up is that Jigglypuff has a moveset and playstyle completely unique to itself. That's something Sakurai thinks is important in Smash, hence why all of the newcomers have such unique movesets.

Jus' sayin.
 

I_hate_usernames

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An important counter-argument a lot of people are forgetting to bring up is that Jigglypuff has a moveset and playstyle completely unique to itself. That's something Sakurai thinks is important in Smash, hence why all of the newcomers have such unique movesets.

Jus' sayin.
Yep, if anything, Jigglypuffs unique move set and playstyle is what's going to keep her in this game, none of this Jigg-vs-Mewtwo-vs-Greninja-vs-Lucario BS that's been floating around lately.
 

OctiVick

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Lot's of explanations.
I was never saying that just because she was a fairy type she was a lock in smash. I just wanted her to have at least a bit of revamp because she now a fairy type, like how pit has some his new arsenal form KI Uprising, how Olimar has his new pikmin, Zelda with the phantom from Spirit Track, or how Bowser got changed to look like he dose in more resent games.
 

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@ Overtaken Overtaken well said; condsidering we are on the same point about Jigglypuff not having much going for her to stay, other than having been in past games, I will leave the debate back here.
I don't know how old you are and/or if you were a big Pokemon fan back in the late 90's when the hype train for gold/silver was running at maximum hyper drive, but I was and I remember very distinctly how they were advertising (in magazines and such) how there was going to be two new types added. Honestly, that and 'Pikablue', are about the only two things I clearly remember about the pre-release hype of generation 2, which if my anecdotal evidence means anything at all, should indicate the new types were being considered a big deal even back then. That was actually the biggest new feature really, that and breeding (and held items... and shineys...) With X/Y you had a lot of hyped features, not the least of which was the 'mega-evolutions', new handheld system, fully rendered 3D for the first time. But when you really think about visible changes that would be relevant to corresponding Smash game, for representing Generation 2 in Melee, they went with Pichu. A silly clone of Pikachu. No new steel or dark type, which was about the only change that could have been relevant to Smash. We got Scizor as a Pokeball assist. But with Smash 4 and considering notable changes and expansions to the Pokemon themselves in X/Y, I think it is obvious now that the mega-evolutions were the main thing Sakurai felt compelled to represent in the playable roster. And lo and behold, we already have a confirmed fairy Pokeball assist, so that may very well be all Sakurai cares to do about it.
I cannot believe there are people saying that the almighty Jigglypuff isn't coming back....I honestly think she's coming back 100%, and hey, Brawl had 6 pokemon (So we're looking at Pikachu, Lucario, Greninja, Charizard, Jiggs, Mewtwo) and I bet you anything Zelda will get a new Rep, (Link, Zelda, Sheik, Toon Link, Ganondorf, Tingle/Ghirahim) and to be quite Frank, I wouldn't be surprised if the Mario series got bumped up to six. I know what you're thinking, "6 is too much" well I say, Do you honestly think The Zelda series will come without a newcomer? I might just be a pacifist for saying that JigglyPuff and Mewtwo can co-exist, but I think it's very possible...
I absolutely think all three series could and may easily have six reps. I am not sure that it would be Jigglypuff. Sure, it could be. It is ridiculous to say what one thinks a statistical percentage is, an opinion immediately discredits the percentage (at non full I mayunderstand, but if it cant be seen it is not an absolute given she is back, that is purely on you to be refuting evidence nd going with your intuition or hopes).
 

Princess Toady

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Lol, I actually found a Shiny Farfetch'd before encountering the shiny Gyarados and caught it just because it was sparkling and weird-looking. But I din't know what the heck that was, I think I only found out about shinies a long time after Gen3 was out and then looked back at Farfetch'd and told myself I was pretty lucky to not have run away from him at the time.

But going back to Jigglypuff, some people seem to talk in absolute and I do admit that it's very annoying since nothing is sure (then again, lots of people are talking in absolutes about certain characters).

Removing Jigglypuff only to add Wigglytuff would probably unnerve a lot of fans. You're basically removing a veteran only to add its evolution that's probably even less liked since it has little to nothing going for it (let's be real, Wigglytuff sucks competitively (but I still like it)). Wigglytuff doesn't offer much compared to Jigglypuff, and I would find it weird (just my opinion) if Wigglytuff was to be played exactly like Jigglypuff).

Though, now that I think about it, Wigglytuff held a rather important place in Pokémon Mystery Dungeon 3...
 
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