Japanese Tier List

[AlphaZealot]

The mouth it is that Wes w which is Wes which is different as for stronger one black

OMFG AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

I'd like to comment though that Peach and Falco is either and even match up or Falco has the advantage. Falco destroys Peach's ability to float, which takes away a big part of her game. However, aside from this match up, and mabye Fox, everyone else is about equal or Peach has the upper hand, she deserves top 5 (in America at least).

No one can really comment on how the Japanese rank there characters unless you have talked first hand with someone from Japan, as Jesus has.

However if you think the Japanese tier list has more weight than the American list, you are chiefly mistaken. Our best are on par with there best, as has already been shown, and Captain Jack lists only one tournament with rankings, where he got first, so under the assumption that CJ is near the best in Japan, and that he has been beaten by Americans (Ken, Isai, Azen), then you can also assume we are at the very least at there level. There opinions have no more value than ours do.

 

[CaliburChamp]

Nobody plays DK much in America, maybe thats why CJ was surprised when he heard DK is in low. And he think Link deserves higher on the list too? I also wonder how the Ice Climbers are ranked on the list since they are underated and underused like DK is.

And another question. Weakest tier in the game. Mewtwo or Pichu. I kinda felt Bowser had more potential than Mewtwo. Heh, Bowser is like twice as good as Mewtwo since they are using the point system, and M2 got a .5 and Bowser got a 1.0. .5 + .5 = 1.0

 

[Yuna]

You're making assumptions. I mean, look at the Top3 of the states; Ken, Azen, Isai or possibly Azen, Ken, Isai. There was a clear different in skill ('til TG6) between all 3. They always placed 1st, 2nd, 3rd, over and over again.

As with CJ, well, he's supposedly 3rd best in Japan or somewhere up there. How do we know if the best and 2nd best players of Japan aren't waaay better than K.A.I.?

Do not assume someone's skill 'til you've played them.

 

[DYC]

Originally posted by FallenAngelII
Do not assume someone's skill 'til you've played them.

That's pretty funny, seeing as how that's pretty much the only thing that goes on here when someone new shows up. gg hypocrites.

 

[dan smith]

Japan is awesome.

The Marios aren't the best in Japan...they have terrible recovery. That dosen't change based on what country you are in. They are better though, more appreciated at least.

If you watch Japanese videos you will see the main difference in them and us is style. They are much more agressive than us. Which style is better, I don't know.

Roy is higher in Japan. This I know, which makes a lot of sense,he is very similar to Marth.

I think Pichu is a lot better than people think, just hitting Pichu can be hard. She has good little combos, a very strong up smash, and good recovery.

The tiers aren't perfect and they probably never will be.

 

[CORY]

Originally posted by DYC
That's pretty funny, seeing as how that's pretty much the only thing that goes on here when someone new shows up. gg hypocrites.

first: hypocrite, not plural for that case.
second: most newbies who get slammed tend to either
a) make a fool of themselves and try to declare everything that is standard knowledge null and void.
or
b) go straight into bashing proven top/good players in the tourney room in some form.

also, most people who are new to the boards (barring a few exceptions) generally have lower skill and a less refined game overall, so it's less of a bias and more of an educated guess.

 

[-West Coast Wes-]

"The mouth it is that Wes w which is Wes which is different as for stronger one black ƒEƒFƒX "

I think CJ is saying, DA Wes is better than WestCoastWes.

; ] I wish I could see the original japanese so I could translate it better than that crap (im not denying the information). Im guessing CJ told masashi that he played wes, and masashi said he also played me (and he did, in japan). They most likely got confused for a while.

I dont think the japanese list has any more credibility than ours. We must keep in mind.. that because one is placed mid or low doesnt mean they are bad, it means they HAD to be placed somewhere. A list is a list, all characters may be extremely close. The game is much more fun when we forget that crap as well O_O

Mewtwo bottom haha. Mikael rocked me with him :O

 

[HugS]

So you go to japan to play yet I have never seen you here in Socal at a tournament wcw? Haha you are too cool man. Must have been fun.
Oh, and what corey said in regards to DYC is totally right. It's easy to figure out how good someone is when they say something like "OMG TIERS DON'T EXIST" or "who's are these ken and azen guys, i could probably take them". Assuming they suck when saying those types of things are not signs of underestimating.

 

[Oro]

Originally posted by AlphaZealot
However if you think the Japanese tier list has more weight than the American list, you are chiefly mistaken. Our best are on par with there best, as has already been shown, and Captain Jack lists only one tournament with rankings, where he got first, so under the assumption that CJ is near the best in Japan, and that he has been beaten by Americans (Ken, Isai, Azen), then you can also assume we are at the very least at there level. There opinions have no more value than ours do.

While I agree that the best in Japan are about equal in skill with the best in America, I would argue that the Japanese know the match ups of the characters we consider low much better. Americans have taken Fox, Sheik, Marth, Samus, Peach, Falco, Captain Falcon, all the high through top tier characters to the peak of their metagame. However, characters such as Yoshi, Donkey Kong, Mewtwo, etc, have highly undeveloped metagames. People who have practiced these characters are few and far between, and most give up before they get anywhere. After seeing and playing Jack's DK, I believe that DK has a MUCH MUCH higher limit than I previously thought, and I think that people have underestimated him and not learned him, leading to his low placement.

Americans have only scratched the surface with what low-tier characters are capable of. Most people give up on them completely because many of them can be chainthrow by Sheik to no end, or have a similarly bad matchup. But people like Captain Jack, Mike, Luke, Chu Dat, etc have shown that even if these characters may be statistically weaker than the higher tiered characters, they're not unplayably bad.

 

[dan smith]

Almost all of the characters in SSBM are great, they all have amazing things they can do. I would say American tiers are close to correct but that people see a character low on the tiers and assume that means they are bad, it dosen't, it means they aren't as good as Sheik, Fox, and Marth...who are stupid good.

I would say competitivly Japan is slightly better than the US but technically they are much more proficient. They understand the mechanics of the game better than most Americans.

 

[Yuna]

Someone talked about the metagame, yes, I agree. I mean, just look at Marth. Before Ken, Marth wasn't even up there, from what I've heard. Then this Ken scrub/n00b or whatever he was considered appeared and p0wned people and everyone went "Ouh, Marth!"

And now Chu Dat is taking Ice Climbers to new extremes.

Why does Mario have a terrible recovery? It's like a weakened version of Marth's recovery (cape into d+b into u+b).

 

[CORY]

marth was upper before ken, ken just threw him way the **** over into top.

imo, ic's are fine where they are, even after watching chu's vids. same with doc, even after cj's. the two of them just hit some crazy omgwtftacular stuff and know those characters' matchups very well (and in chu's case, not many people understand ic's matchups against them, very well.)

all imo, of course.

 

[DYC]

See that is something i don't understand. Ken shows how good Marth can be and he gets moved to top, yet Chu Dat shows how good the IC's can be and they don't move at all?

 

[CORY]

marth being moved is one spot early on in the game's career. he was pretty much what falco is now, position-wise, just barely eeked out of top tier just because we didn't understand how he fit the metagame.

chu's ic's are mostly due to people not EVER seeing ic's, much less really good ic's. personally, chu's strats and techniques themselves weren't a big wow, he just pulled everything off almost flawlessly and had ****ed good mindgames. he understands how to play ic's so much better than i could ever hope to. it's not that he's shed some unknown light and that ic's have been teetering on the verge of moving up, he just exposed everyone to them and not many people understood how to get around them.

and, once again, this is all just my conjecture and opinion.

 

[DYC]

That cleared some of it up, i really was just unsure of the difference b/w the two occurances, i can blame it on not being here when ken showed up, since i've only been reading SWF for about 4 months and posting for about 2. thx Cory

 

[frotaz37]

chu's ic's are mostly due to people not EVER seeing ic's, much less really good ic's. personally, chu's strats and techniques themselves weren't a big wow, he just pulled everything off almost flawlessly and had ****ed good mindgames. he understands how to play ic's so much better than i could ever hope to. it's not that he's shed some unknown light and that ic's have been teetering on the verge of moving up, he just exposed everyone to them and not many people understood how to get around them.

Exactly. It was funny watching people react to Ice Climbers at TG. I remember Isai asking every good player he could find how to fight the Ice Climbers, cause he was about to play Chu ^_^ I think Chu was the most feared opponent at TG simply because, like you said, people didn't understand the Ice Climbers, and certainly didn't know how to fight them.

 

[megaman2]

Well, I agree with Peach being ahead of Falco. I remember the last guy who posted fake Japanese tiers got banned.

 

[JesusFreak]

Are you implying these are fake? Are you implying I'm not a credable member of the smash community?! Look how many posts I have and ask anyone in the country if they've heard of me. Yeah, I'm not gonna get banned. Maybe you think they should ban Captain Jack?

 

[Electricmouse]

I've never heard of you before jesusfreak and frankly your post count doesn't impress me. How do we know that you just didn't post in the forum games or just post spam? I'm also wondering how credable you are in the smash community?

 

[AWrulez]

Um, yeah. JesusFreak (or AllAlone as he is known on the GameFAQs boards) is a respected member of the smash community. He tries hard to attend as many tournaments as possible, and is a very active member of the Texas smash community. And he got those numbers from Captain Jack, who is a top 4 player in Japan. Oh yeah, JF is in the MBR too.
He has credibility and respect, probably a lot more than his doubters.

Uh... so go JF!!! WOOOOOOOHHH!!!!! *holds up signs*

EDIT: omg u suk elecrticmoose ;-;

 

[Electricmouse]

AWrulez, i know jf and I are in the same crew. I was just being a little sarcastic and just made the post to annoy him. >_>

 

[Rebel581]

You should jespect others. Possibly he would be lying, possibly telling the truth. Does it affect your life at all? No.

And on CJ's video site it says he's ranked number 1, and Masashi number 2. And I agree with Mewtwo's position. And I can see why they'd put Fox as best. Fox can be chain-thrown so easily but if they don't chain-throw, he's much better. They don't allow chain-throws so Sheik is worse then she is in America where we chain-throw.

 

[Rainy Day Toast]

Originally posted by Rebel581
They don't allow chain-throws so Sheik is worse then she is in America where we chain-throw.

what

 

[Crash]

its not that they don't allow chain throws, but since tournaments there are played more for fun than for money, both players often agree no chain throwing.
and it says that cj got 1st in that tourney, but it also says under masashi that NOBODY wins more than 50% of the time against him.
so that would mean masashi is the best.

 

[Melee Warrioir]

not necessarily Crash. i would elaborate but it would take way too long. it all basically depends on how many matches were played. and when cj made the percent, well in games like these percents shouldnt really be.. "accepted" like in this case for example.

 

[megaman2]

Originally posted by JesusFreak
Are you implying these are fake? Are you implying I'm not a credable member of the smash community?! Look how many posts I have and ask anyone in the country if they've heard of me. Yeah, I'm not gonna get banned. Maybe you think they should ban Captain Jack?

First of all, how can that be real when you don't even include every character? Secondly, you have Fox ranked in a bracket higher then everyone else called "God". How can Fox be ranked as a God? So, according to your "Japanese Tiers", Marth & Sheik are out of Fox's league. According to you, Marth & Sheik aren't even comparable to Fox. Putting Fox in a rank all by himself higher then everyone else, a rank called "God" for that matter, is like saying Fox is some cheap uber character that no other character can compare to. Fox is good, but he's no uber character, there are no uber characters in Melee. Even a noob can kick *** with an uber character. Have you ever seen a noob try to use Fox? They usually kill themselves by running off the side four times because they're noobs & they can't control Fox's speed. Fox is good, but he doesn't flat out dominate people like Marth & Sheik. Also, Fox even has a counter character, Jigglypuff. How can Fox be considered a God when he has a counter character? If you had Fox in the top tier but above Sheik & Marth then it would at least be believable. If Japan really consideres Fox to be a God & they don't even think any character other then the 6 or 7 you listed are even worth ranking then Japan sucks.

 

[dan smith]

You don't understand obviously. They don't list the other characters because they think they are so evenly matched there is no point.

and more and more I am starting to believe Fox is the best, he is hard to play perfectly...but he is the best.

That's all this whole topic is really about.

 

[CORY]

also, you seem awfully stuck on just the fact that the tier fox is in is called the god tier. how about you just make that the top tier, then the next upper, and so on? or would you still complain? it just seems like you made a big hoopla over the name more than anything.

if you look at it as them and us more or less agreeing on the top tier placements (at least, for us, shiek and marth, maybe the few who think falco/peach belong up there, too) but they think fox is just that bit better than them, even.

 

[AWrulez]

Um, since when does Jigglypuff counter Fox? Up throw to rest CAN be DI'd, Jigglypuff dies at like 50% from up smash (out of shield works fine, normal works as well) and at similar percentages from up air. Jiggly might manage to get the occasional up throw rest in, and has some nice combos on Fox, Jigglypuff does not counter Fox. Some would even argue that Fox ***** Jigglypuff.
Also, what CORY said.

And JesusFreak is a very respected member of the smash community, as I said before, and he got those from Captain Jack, a top 4 player in Japan.

It doesn't say that CJ is ranked number 1 in Japan, Rebel (at least I don't think so). It just says that he took first place in a big tournament, but he isn't necessarily the best.

 

[megaman2]

Jiggly might manage to get the occasional up throw rest in, and has some nice combos on Fox

You just answered your own question.

Some would even argue that Fox ***** Jigglypuff.

Yeah, who? Maybe if the Fox guy was just flat out better then the person using JP. Between 2 equally skilled good players, Fox has a hard time against JP.

And JesusFreak is a very respected member of the smash community, as I said before, and he got those from Captain Jack, a top 4 player in Japan.

Who cares? The credibility of the person making the claim is nothing if there is no credibility to the actual claim itself. Maybe those are the actual Japanese tiers, but if they are then Japan is way off. I haven't seen one decent argument as to why these tiers are accurate.

also, you seem awfully stuck on just the fact that the tier fox is in is called the god tier. how about you just make that the top tier, then the next upper, and so on? or would you still complain? it just seems like you made a big hoopla over the name more than anything.

No, it's that he's in a tier all to himself, not the name of the tier. It's arguable as to which of the 3 elites(Marth, Fox, & Sheik) is the best. You could come up with a good argument as to why any one of those is better then the other two. But to say that one is in a whole tier above the others is saying that that one is undisputidly better then the other 2. This isn't true at all. All 3 are pretty balanced, when it comes down to a match between any combination of those 3 characters it all depends on the skills of the people using them. Fox is not a whole tier ahead of Marth & Sheik.

You don't understand obviously. They don't list the other characters because they think they are so evenly matched there is no point.

So Captain Falcon & Pichu are evenly matched?

 

[Electricmouse]

Megaman2, he didn't include all of the characters since cj didn't remember the positions of all of them. Credibility does matter since JF wouldn't make this up for no reason but lets say a completely new person came up with this then we would question them more. Also these are just tiers and you don't have to believe them. If you don't, then don't worry about them. Besides the japanese use a different method of ranking than we do.

 

[AWrulez]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=41555&perpage=15&pagenumber=2

Sintenal and Umbreon.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=44122&perpage=15&pagenumber=3

FlowinWater said some stuff about Falco on Jigglypuff, but most of it applies to Fox as well, and Fox does it better than Falco anyways.

You just answered your own question.

No, I didn't. Sure, Jiggly can combo Fox alright, but so can basically every other character. Up throw to rest will rarely work at high levels of play, since it can and will be DI'd, and Fox shouldn't get grabbed anyways. Meanwhile, Fox kills at around 50% with up smash and up aerial. His back air can trade with the WoP.

Who cares? The credibility of the person making the claim is nothing if there is no credibility to the actual claim itself. Maybe those are the actual Japanese tiers, but if they are then Japan is way off. I haven't seen one decent argument as to why these tiers are accurate.

Except the the claim is accurate. They came from a top player in Japan. JesusFreak just didn't extract the complete rankings from him. Also, who are you? Who are you to decide whether the rankings are accurate or not?

 

[nintendoaddict]

So Captain Falcon & Pichu are evenly matched?

Pichu vs. Falcon really is an even match. I'm not joking.

 

[Rainy Day Toast]

don't worry; if you're not joking than being wrong will still cover you.

 

[nintendoaddict]

Pichu's small size and agility makes it very difficult for Falcon to land his attacks while Pichu is using his hit and run. Also, Uair comes out faster then all of Falcon's attacks and landing just one of these will lead to at least 10 more of them and a Dair or Nair, which can get Falcon off the edge quickly. With his recovery, he won't be getting back if the Pichu knows how to edgeguard. Also, forward smash and down-smash will hit Falcon off at very low angles due to his falling speed. These can both kill Falcon very early on if he's near the edge. Falcon has a hard time edgeguarding Pichu due to the options Pichu has with agility, such as going 2 different directions while he's getting back (ex: down-left, then straight up). I would type more but I have to go trick or treating

 

[pictish freak]

Well, from my experience Pichu has fun with Falcon, but from experiencing more of Falcon I'm starting to see it's not as nicely in his favour as previously suspected...

Oh well, it's still Pichu's best match up. Even if it's not an advantage, or even, even if it's just closing the tier gap nicely, it's still one of Pichu's better match ups for sure. Feh, I'd have to fight a great Falcon with Pichu to know, huh? Sadly D-throw chain and the fact that Falcon's moves can make the enemy float on the spot waiting for the knee doesn't bode nicely for Pichu, but Pichu gets better options than he does against anyone else when facing Falcon...

Blah, I don't know.

EDIT: God, this is such a crap post. Sorry. Tired.

 

[CORY]

just skipping over everything else and going into the fox being in his own separate spot deal:

it's because fox has the best offense in the game. his speed and maneuverability, coupled with cancelling into and out of shine lets you play a very powerful rushdown game with very very small chances of taking any retribution. from most japanese vids i've seen, technical skill isn't a very big issue for them, which is one of the biggest hang ups for american fox players, as well as the way we set up our tier list.

and i'm gonna jump on the awrulez bandwagon and ask who you are. who have you played? what tourneys have you been to? what have you seen? i don't care if you won or placed high, that's not as important as exposure and you're just coming off as someone who doesn't have much exposure outside of your local crew. if i'm wrong, i'll eat those words (without ketchup or salt, at that).

 

[JesusFreak]

I could imagine Pichu giving Falcon a pretty tough time, because Pika is one of Falcon's worst matchups. And to the guy who doesn't like me: just go back to your hole. Or come to moast3 and I can **** you personally.:D

 

[megaman2]

And to the guy who doesn't like me: just go back to your hole. Or come to moast3 and I can **** you personally.

Are you talking about me? Who said I don't like you? I don't even know you. Just because I question something you say means I don't like you? And how do you even know you could beat me at Melee? And even if you can, in what way would that contribute to anything that's been discussed in this topic?

just skipping over everything else and going into the fox being in his own separate spot deal:

That was actually the main point that I was making. You seem to be the only one to realise that, everyone else just commented on the minor points that mostly didn't even matter.

it's because fox has the best offense in the game. his speed and maneuverability, coupled with cancelling into and out of shine lets you play a very powerful rushdown game with very very small chances of taking any retribution. from most japanese vids i've seen, technical skill isn't a very big issue for them, which is one of the biggest hang ups for american fox players, as well as the way we set up our tier list.

Well if that's true, then why are high level matches between Fox & Sheik/Marth so close almost all the time? If Fox belongs in a whole tier ahead of Sheik & Marth, then a good Fox should beat an equally skilled Marth or Sheik by 2 stocks or more every time, or almost every time.

 

[CORY]

because these are JAPANESE tiers. not ours, not the ones we made. cj's got his msn and aim names out somewhere (i know his msn is on his site). toss those in your buddy list and talk to him. his english is good if he's writing/reading, i hear, so you can try to pick his brain some and see what their reasoning is.