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Janon social thread : Lair of the Floating Back Slapping Missile Reflecting King of Evil
- Thread starter teluoborg
- Start date
mattphillyphan
Smash Cadet
Can't wait to see them.
Yo @
Electric Tuba
you gonna be at Bowser's revenge thus weekend?
Electric Tuba
you gonna be at Bowser's revenge thus weekend?
MerzA
Smash Cadet
Yeah that was a really rough set... Solharath's sonic is really safe and optimized
Heres the set: http://youtu.be/Z9y-1uzgHFo
I feel like I was doing too much movement
Electric Tuba
Smash Journeyman
Unfortunately not, I'm in Austin for the summer. I'm coming up for the arcadian, though!Yo @
Cool. Gonna try to make that, I think it's during a busy slot for me...
Renth
Smash Hero
mattphillyphan
Smash Cadet
I'm disgusted in the best way.
Renth
Smash Hero
I'm kind of the best Ganondorf of all time. In case you didn't know.
mattphillyphan
Smash Cadet
Brazzers | Renth when
mattphillyphan
Smash Cadet
Quick, Seagull Joe and Pink Fresh are coming to my regional. What does Ganon do to beat Diddy and Lucas
Inb4 "he doesn't"
Inb4 "he doesn't"
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
mattphillyphan
Smash Cadet
HELP HELP HE FOUND ME HELPHe doesn't
don't let diddy get his banana in hand, the matchup becomes, like, literally 3 times harder. if you can hold the banana, ganon has a decent oos glidetoss, and you can try to keep yourself between diddy and the banana, forcing him to play as a normal-ish character or to try and force his way through you to get it. you can also catch peanuts, so you can, in theory, catch all of his projectiles. he has a decent combo weight going on, so you can do some work once you catch him, but that's easier said than done. i'm not sure if it still works this way, but previously if he charged upb more than just a few frames, he couldn't sweetspot at all, so you can force a shiek-esque ledge recovery game on him that way, because most of your aerials should beat out the rocket blast clean (uair would probably be the best overall option).
stay in your midrange zoning on lucas, everything you do beats pkfreeze, pretty much. try not to shield and use your range advantage to beat his options, but you'll pretty much need real hard reads. he falls into combos pretty decently, though. try to force him to tether and take the ledge, then punish the reel in with ledge drop bair (you can get it to cover the fallback or landing on the ledge, i think he can fall forward enough with a heavy commitment to escape bair). if he falls forward a lot, you can guarantee ledge drop fair and ledge drop aerial flame choke into [thing]. otherwise, you can beat out his pkthunder2 pretty simply.
but, it's seagull and pink fresh, so good luck with any of that, anyway.
mattphillyphan
Smash Cadet
Thank god I've actually been practicing glide tossing.
Stalled
Smash Apprentice
PMDT needs to redline his hand and back, might be the still but that ish looks a bit wonky. That being said, that sword is baller as **** 
mattphillyphan
Smash Cadet
Just signed up for my first out of country tournament, anyone else going to summit?
I won't be able to mess with 3.6 til Thursday, probably. Can someone translat what's going on with the new Nair? It sounds like we lost the flub hitbox, but the strong hitbox isn't extended, so it's two 2frame long hitboxes, with the ac window pushed back?
The autocancel window is the same, it just doesn't autocancel while the hitboxes are active by virtue of the flub hitboxes no longer existing.
I was kinda just expecting the AC window to be pushed back, this change seems strange. It sounds like it might possibly result in whiffs where it looks like it should connect?
Guess we'll have to try it out to see, may not be that significant really.
Cape being functional sounds nice.
Wonder what happened that we ended up with light armour on sword taunt instead of medium. Not that it matters at all though lol.
Edit: Wait removing the flub hitbox means that each hit now last 3 frames, not 2. PMDT do you even math?
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A friend on fb was telling me that there's a 12 frame gap between kicks. That seems absurd ;x
I was expecting something more like you were saying. My buddy was telling me it felt like he couldn't catch grounded people with it very easily... And a 12 frame gap!?
Okay no it is 2 frames. Thought it was just a mistake in the changelog but apparently not.
Though holy **** @Sartron with the insanely fast frame data thread update. Based.
Hmm, I haven't noticed. Maybe it's just the Merree sound effects
And idk the autocancel seems fine to me, I'm guessing as a whole its a bit more strict to pull off? I haven't noticed too many issues, but then again I was labbing Olimar the whole time. Downthrow seems really tight now, idk if it's just me though.
And idk the autocancel seems fine to me, I'm guessing as a whole its a bit more strict to pull off? I haven't noticed too many issues, but then again I was labbing Olimar the whole time. Downthrow seems really tight now, idk if it's just me though.
they did say that if throws seem different, but aren't mentioned in the patch notes, it's part of the universal throw release changes.
so, the stuff i had to do today didn't need to be done today, so i got to mess with 3.6 a bit. it looks like the nair is functionally the same for us, as far as inputs go. you might need to start nair just a few frames later to hit the ac window? the loss of the weak hits might be pretty bad, though. you used to be able to full jump nair on most platforms (for example, bf's) and get both hits (a weak, then the strong) and ac it. now, there's not hitbox there for the weak hit, so you lose that coverage/extra damage. it'll probably affect our projectile game, too, since we lost a HUGE amount of hitbox to cover against pills and missiles and ****. and the move is still positive on shield, just one frame less.
it feels like this didn't actually fix the big issues with nair (depending on how you looked at it, either the ridiculous damage you can land for both hits, or the fact that it's +3 on shield with a very lenient input). instead, we lost coverage on the hitboxes to help against projectile spam and people trying to force fast aerials into our faces in neutral, which didn't seem to be overbearingly polarizing aspects of the move. it's just a weird fix when they could've just pushed the ac window back 2 frames and kept the move mostly the same, otherwise...
gonna ask my local pmdt if they know who was in charge of ganon changes so i can pick his/her brain over the rationale for it.
it feels like this didn't actually fix the big issues with nair (depending on how you looked at it, either the ridiculous damage you can land for both hits, or the fact that it's +3 on shield with a very lenient input). instead, we lost coverage on the hitboxes to help against projectile spam and people trying to force fast aerials into our faces in neutral, which didn't seem to be overbearingly polarizing aspects of the move. it's just a weird fix when they could've just pushed the ac window back 2 frames and kept the move mostly the same, otherwise...
gonna ask my local pmdt if they know who was in charge of ganon changes so i can pick his/her brain over the rationale for it.
Scuba Steve
Smash Ace
Ya but now the rest of Ganon isn't booty like Melee Ganon
Yeah, it's still totally usable. Just, the changes seem odd : /
I was actually thinking the same thing when I skimmed his patch notes...
Had to sign onto smashboards after not being on here for months to say RIP Arty Vortex
I would also love to know the rationality behind this. Nair was an excellent mixup in neutral, now it's a free pass for someone to approach you.
I would also love to know the rationality behind this. Nair was an excellent mixup in neutral, now it's a free pass for someone to approach you.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Well, since a lot of things have been 'Melee-fied' over the course of PM's history, I can only believe that they'd like to retain major aspects of Ganon's Melee gameplay. As such, it is totally unsurprising that they kept Ganon's dthrow as broken as it is because, IIRC, Melee Ganon had CGs on the most characters in the game. It makes sense that they'd want to keep a bad grab as the balancing factor, which was also in Melee. Snake had a very peculiar grab, I think, because of the way he reached his arms out; he needed a peculiar fix in return. Ganon doesn't have that problem (as far as I've noticed), and he even gets his own odd scenarios where he grabs behind him, even with standing grabs. Snake also still can't grab low-crouching opponents. At least we can sideB them.
I'm a little confused. When you say "ledge drop," do you mean 'ledge-hop'?
Were those really issues? Ganon is a high-damage character. His stomp does 20 damage and his usmash does 40 if you connect both hits (which isn't uncommon). Idk about PM, but I know in Melee, hitting with both hits of his 'breakdance get-up attack' did 20 damage. All of this makes sense for a slower character with slow-ish moves. The move being positive on block also isn't an issue when you consider those things. All of Samus' strong aerials are plus on block, as are all of Peach's aerials, and they have decent lock-down potential. Even with a +3 advantage, Ganon gets nothing guaranteed other than jab. To me, it feels like some frame advantage is a fair reward for getting in, even if the move has lenient execution. It is a little upsetting that such a good tool for dealing with projectiles was removed, but at least we have a better cape to somewhat make up for it.
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I thought it was entirely fine as it was, basically 'bciz ganon'. But I was hearing a lot of grumbling about it from several sources (not even just my local pmdt), so I was mostly expecting something to the ac window, because it was just silly how it ac'd halfway through the move. Then this, which I guess is altering the ac window, but not in a way I expected at all... The loss of the meaty hitboxes hurts, but the move "seems" usable still. But, we also lost a good neutral tool on a character that's a bit lacking in neutral to begin with, so...
Okay so after mulling it over for a couple of days I think I've realized why the PMDT made this change.
3.5 nair was a pretty darn good move. It was a solid neutral option, it was a great anti-projectile tool, it comboes and racks up damage, and is safe on block. Though not as egregious as some other tools in this game they probably thought it was a tad overcentralizing and I don't think we can truly disagree with that. Only counterpoint that can really be offered is that perhaps it's not so bad for Ganon to have a move like that. That answer is that it probably isn't, but I guess for design reasons they still decided to change it.
So what ended up happening was we sorta got it spread it. 3.6 nair still retains it's combo ability, damage and while two frames less advantage on shield it's still positive. I do kinda wish I still had the 3 frame duration of the strong hit from 3.5 rather than Melee's 2 frame duration, as it's a bit awkward to hit with (or maybe something like 2 frame strong hit 2 frame weak hit). Improvements to cape carries the anti-projectile role, which is obviously less effective but I don't think it was within the PMDT's design goals for Ganon to be able to deal with projectile pressure with such ease. Cape could still stand to be a bit better though.
So that leaves that neutral aspect which unfortunately we got nothing to compensate for that loss. I don't have much to say in that regard other than I hope they've got some ideas that they wanted to refine further before publicly implementing them.
This is all just speculation though, we'll have to wait until we either get an explanation from a PMDT member, or if we see further changes in the finalized 3.6 release.
3.5 nair was a pretty darn good move. It was a solid neutral option, it was a great anti-projectile tool, it comboes and racks up damage, and is safe on block. Though not as egregious as some other tools in this game they probably thought it was a tad overcentralizing and I don't think we can truly disagree with that. Only counterpoint that can really be offered is that perhaps it's not so bad for Ganon to have a move like that. That answer is that it probably isn't, but I guess for design reasons they still decided to change it.
So what ended up happening was we sorta got it spread it. 3.6 nair still retains it's combo ability, damage and while two frames less advantage on shield it's still positive. I do kinda wish I still had the 3 frame duration of the strong hit from 3.5 rather than Melee's 2 frame duration, as it's a bit awkward to hit with (or maybe something like 2 frame strong hit 2 frame weak hit). Improvements to cape carries the anti-projectile role, which is obviously less effective but I don't think it was within the PMDT's design goals for Ganon to be able to deal with projectile pressure with such ease. Cape could still stand to be a bit better though.
So that leaves that neutral aspect which unfortunately we got nothing to compensate for that loss. I don't have much to say in that regard other than I hope they've got some ideas that they wanted to refine further before publicly implementing them.
This is all just speculation though, we'll have to wait until we either get an explanation from a PMDT member, or if we see further changes in the finalized 3.6 release.
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