Ivysaur: Official Character Discussion

[KishSquared]

Discussion for the Ivy-covered Dinosaur. Anyone can suggest anything for any of these topics, and it'll be noted. No changes will be made without three votes. Default physics values will be used unless new ones are suggested are earn three votes.

Suggested Offensive Modifications:

Suggested Defensive Modifications:

Default Physics:
SH: 1.025
FH: 1.025
FF: 1.2
DGrav: 1.050
Grav: 1.0

Physics Changes:

Specific Move Fixes:

Anything else:

 

[KishSquared]

Reserved for codes.

 

[The Cape]

Two tethers, no other changes. Ivy is a beast.

 

[The Cape]

I know its a double post but I would like to reiterate.

Remove freefall after up and B.

Jiang had an interesting idea for Ivy's dair as well.
Make it give the flower effect for 5 seconds. Reduce base damage.

 

[Ulevo]

I know its a double post but I would like to reiterate.

Remove freefall after up and B.

Jiang had an interesting idea for Ivy's dair as well.
Make it give the flower effect for 5 seconds. Reduce base damage.

I'm not understanding this modification. Flower effect?

 

[The Cape]

Like when you get hit with Lip's Stick or Jigglypuff's rest.

Puts the flower on your head and you take damage over time.

 

[Ulevo]

I don't see how that is necessary.

In either case, Ivysaurs recovery right now is fairly good thanks to Razor Leaf changes. If we were to just remove the free fall state so Ivy could move better while falling it would help the recovery sufficiently. I don't think any other changes are necessary.

 

[The Cape]

If he had the Olimar hop I would say he is good to go on that one.

If we can do that I would suggest that over the multi up and B.

 

[The Cape]

What about making dair always have the spiking hitbox to make the move actually useful and his D smash could stand to come out faster since it does **** damage, but has good range.

This would make a good GTFO move and probably complete the character.

 

[kupo15]

I think we should increase the kb on the bullet seed so you don't get 60% from getting trapped in it since you can't SDI that move.

I don't agree with speeding up the dsmash. Doesn't ivy have several GTFO moves? Bullet seed is pretty fast and so is the ftilt.

 

[The Cape]

Bullet seed sucks. Hard.

Its an awful move.

You can either smash DI the first hit to avoid the whole thing, or you can SDI out of the move itself and punish Ivy. Its not a good move, plain and simple.

 

[Ulevo]

Bullet Seed is a good move in that it can hit larger opponents fairly easily if combo'd from, and it has invincibility from frames 1-3, and the hit box comes out on frame 3. That said, it's not an amazing move, and if you're caught in it it is likely you're own fault. It can do 62 - 64% from 0% if it is used fully from the ground, but that rarely happens. Ivysaur can normally more damager through safer methods. I see no reason to modify the move.

 

[The Cape]

We werent talking about modifying bullet seed.

We were talking about D smash and dair.

 

[Ulevo]

We werent talking about modifying bullet seed.

We were talking about D smash and dair.

Oh?

I think we should increase the kb on the bullet seed so you don't get 60% from getting trapped in it since you can't SDI that move.

Bullet seed sucks. Hard.

Its an awful move.

You can either smash DI the first hit to avoid the whole thing, or you can SDI out of the move itself and punish Ivy. Its not a good move, plain and simple.

It appeared like you were discussing Bullet Seed to me. In any case, I was replying to Kupos comment.

 

[CT Chia]

it does 60% rly? i thought it was less, around 40-45 with good SDI/DI.
increase the kb then just a LITTLE bit so its still very similar, but maybe like 30-40% instead of 60

other than that, maybe incr kb on dmsahs. it seems kinda useless now and he could use a good get out move.

dont give him multi upBs. he has a great on stage game that if we made his recovery better that could be a bit much. then considering how strong his upB is if u hit the opponent while theyr edgehogging u could almost always atleast take ur opponent with u which isnt right. and the razor leaf changes make it better. his recovery is fine.

i would say keep the dair. no flower effect or always spike.

 

[Revven]

I'm pretty sure you can Tap DI the BS and it'll only get you to 40-50%.

 

[leafgreen386]

That's still 50% from one move. I think you can SDI it at the beginning and the end, but if you get hit and get caught in it from the ground, you're taking a huge chunk of damage. If we modify it at all, we should just nerf the damage it does.

 

[shanus]

moral of the story, don't jump into bullet seed.

10dontnerfwhataintbrokens

 

[Revven]

Ivysaur needs ONE last change to him and he should be good to go:

Make it so Up B, while someone is hogging the edge, aim for the person on the ledge to hit them off and then snap on right after. This would punish a terribly timed edgehog and at the same time, still make Ivy easy to gimp and have a recovery buff. I just played a match on Saturday where Ivy's Up B DID hit my opponent off the edge, as if it was aiming directly at the person on it, but of course it didn't snap, the Up B killed him and I was about to die. Maybe the best way to do it would be if Ivy is a certain distance away, aim for the person on the ledge and then snap on after it hits them off?

However we decide to do it (if anyone agrees) is fine with me, I know Dair helps him a bit (not when he's far away though like in the match I'm talking about) but, the Up B could use this tweak instead of having a second Up B or something.

I'll post the video up of the ending, I think it'd be a nice change, preferably if it was put in depending on how far away he is from the ledge.

Just an idea, let me know what you guys think. I know he's really good onstage and his recovery currently balances him out quite well, I think this would just finish him and make it so people wouldn't complain as much about his recovery.

 

[The Cape]

Ok, after all the super BS that people were complaining about with Ivy at the tourney this is what I suggest for the character. Ivysaur unfortunately has the problem that Link has, crappy moveset syndrome so why not give her a pimp overhaul?

Fair hits at 110 degree angle and come out frame 10 instead of 15

Bair does 5 and 5 damage

Dair non spike hit hits at 80 degrees

D smash comes out frame 8 instead of 16, finish 50 instead of 55 (original 63)

SideB at 1.33 winddown

One upB 2x winddown

Dash attack hits at 100 degree angle

U tilt comes out frame 6 instead of frame 9

F tilt last hit has more BKB

Uair minus 2 damage, plus 2 base

 

[MookieRah]

I said this in IRC, but this looks excellent on paper. I'd love to play this beast.

 

[The Cape]

Also, ALR back to 50% if we do this.

Should be able to write em up tomorrow.

 

[Blank Mauser]

So me and Cape had a few tweaks to Ivysaur, not sure when/if they are going to be ready. Really though, I'd be happy with Ivysaur the way she is now if she just had 35% ALR back.

ALR was simply essential to her with her weaknesses, for reasons I've explained plenty of times now. Harsh punishments, aerials that don't cover her well (Found her Bair has 31 frames of lag, thats half a second. I've also been punished for hitting with it before and running in and shielding just lets people shrug it off) and floaty physics to boot.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Alright, me and Cape feel Ivy is nearing perfection right now, so I'm going to post her current modifications and compare to some newer ones we've tried.

Current Modifications:
-Ivysaur razorleaf 1.25x
-Ivysaur Utilt: Comes out 1.3x faster
-Ivysaur upB gives a bigger hop
-Ivysaur standing grab now has 1.2x wind-down
-Ivysaur dair 2x after frame 12

-Ivysaur downsmash 16KBg from 80, 70 BKB from 40, 270 angle from special 20
-Ivysaur dair sourspot 80 degrees from 50
-Ivysaur Dash attack angle 100 from 70
-Ivysaur Bair: All hits do 5 damage instead of 2
-Ivysaur Uair: minus 2 damage, plus 2 base
-Ivysaur Bullet Seed (both hitboxes) KBG 60 from 40, BKB 15 from 10

New Modifications:

35% ALR
1F000018 40555555

Razor Leaf Ends Frame 28 Instead of Frame 50 (6x speed after frame 22)
1F000113 3FA00000

Jab and jab combo at 1.2x speed
1F000024 3F999999

Bair second hits frame 9-10 instead of 13-14
1F0B8064 3F800000
1F078064 40000000

F tilt last hitbox (0 angle, 40 base from 20)
1F026414 11169027
02642811 00000000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

U-tilt (1.2x size)
1F075A3C 00058028
075A3C00 00580000
FFFFFFFF 3F999999
1F076432 00058028
07643200 00580000
FFFFFFFF 3F999999

Jabs (40 degrees)
1F036400 1101E024
03640011 00280000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
1F02320A 11055024
02320A11 00280000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
1F021414 1101E025
02141411 00280000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
1F020014 1101E025
02001411 00280000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
1F011414 1101E025
01141411 00280000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
1F010014 1101E025
01001411 00280000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

My opinions: New leaf is great. It fulfills most the purposes the old leaf had but isn't so spammable. Sets up for aerials up-close, and has a few other versatile chase options for the meaty projectile it is.

I haven't found many uses for the sped up Utilt. With ALR this already combo'd pretty well after Nair, and its hardly viable as an anti-air. The 1.2x size would help in that regard, but I don't think its a necessary change.

I don't feel the Bair change to be that helpful. Also, in conjunction with the speed up it could be a concern, honestly though there are just other ways I'd like to help Ivy.

From the new modifications the ones I prioritize and support the most are:

-35% ALR
As a floaty character with no momentum, I feel the lagginess of her best aerials really holds her back. 35% ALR would shave about 4 frames off Uair, and 3 off Fair, which are the ones that really matter. She honestly gets punished harder then any fast faller does, so I don't see why she doesn't deserve less punishable aerials as well. Unlike other characters with punishable aerials (Aka heavies) her aerial game isn't exactly fast or punishing, and while her range is decent she won't be poking through much and utility is limited on moves that actually do have decent priority.

After all, her Bair has 31 frames of lag in the air, and being able to Uair after Bair to catch shielding, rolling people or techchase/mindgame was really helpful. Fair became a useful move, and this really landed her a lot of Up-B opportunities. Kills pretty well itself too.

-Razor Leaf 6x speedup after frame 22
I never saw this as a spammable projectile simply for the fact its so easy to break and shrug off, but with this speed up there becomes a reward for using it. Like I said up there, I love it even more then the 1.5x leaf.

Cape seems to like the Ftilt change, sets up for techchases. He also likes the 10 damage bair. Above two additions are really what I prioritize the most, but I'm not counting other modifications out. I'll wait for him to give his thoughts, his gameplan is probably slightly different.

 

[leafgreen386]

I'm gonna be honest here. I don't really know a whole lot about ivy, but I really think that bair should only be doing 8 damage, not 10 >_>

It's really nitpicky, especially on a char I have such little experience with, but that thing does NOT look like it should be doing 10%, so if what you're saying is true about the 10% not helping him much, then this shouldn't hurt him much, either.

 

[The Cape]

Final Ivy:
Razor Leaf 2x last 20 frames (ends 40)
Jab and jab combo at 1.2x speed
35% ALR
-Ivysaur upB speedup
-Ivysaur dair 2x after dair
-Ivysaur dair sourspot 80 degrees from 50
-Ivysaur Dash attack angle 100 from 70
-Ivysaur Bair: All hits do 4 damage instead of 2
-Ivysaur Uair: minus 2 damage, plus 2 base
-Ivysaur Bullet Seed (both hitboxes) KBG 60 from 40, BKB 15 from 10
F tilt last hitbox (0 angle, 40 base from 20)
U-tilt (1.5x size)
Jabs (40 degrees)


Speed:
1F1E81D8 40000000
1F000113 3FA00000
1F0C8066 40000000
1F000018 40555555
1F000024 3F999999

Hitbox:
1F085014 1110E033
08502811 010E0000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
1F0A5C20 11032033
0A5C2011 00500000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
1F021414 11050033
04141411 00500000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
1F03A00A 11037033
04A00A11 00370000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
1F02AA0A 11037033
04AA0A11 00370000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
1F02A00A 11037033
04A00A11 00370000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
1F106120 11053033
0E612211 00530000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
1F0C4650 00046026
0C465000 00640000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
1F0A322D 00046026
0A322D00 00640000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
1F085028 1116902F
080A4611 010E0000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
1F075A3C 00058028
075A3C00 00580000
FFFFFFFF 3FC00000
1F076432 00058028
07643200 00580000
FFFFFFFF 3FC00000
1F026414 11169027
02642811 00000000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
1F036400 1101E024
03640011 00280000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
1F02320A 11055024
02320A11 00280000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
1F021414 1101E025
02141411 00280000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
1F020014 1101E025
02001411 00280000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
1F011414 1101E025
01141411 00280000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
1F010014 1101E025
01001411 00280000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

Hyphened lines were already in.

This is all the Ivy codes, took out a few, put in a few new ones. She actually uses less frame speed lines this way. Allows her to be awesome without so much space taken.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I'm pretty happy with this new Ivy. Changes are filling their specified purposes, shes got more going for her now.

 

[The Cape]

I reworked Razor Leaf one more time. The current one in the nightly build comes out frame 18 and the move ends frame 40, giving Ivy 22 frames of lag.

The one I just posted has the move coming out on frame 22 (vBrawl speed) and ending on frame 40, giving 18 frames of lag. Therefore allowing her to have 4 more frames of advantage, but still being the overall speed to end this stupid complaining about the move being broken, but it can still at least be useable.

Run this Ivy as the final one, and she should be a complete character, just put it in the build and we can call her done.