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As interesting as Isaac may be, Habanero's got a point.
Sakurai mentioned that the only series since 2001 that warranted a character were Pikmin and Animal Crossing.
If that's how he felt, then it meant that he didn't view Golden Sun the same way. And if that's how he felt in the series' hayday, then it's highly unlikely Dark Dawn would have changed his mind.
That's possible sure, (and I know you didn't bring this up, but some people do) but I fail to see how Shulk would merit inclusion in Sakurai's mind if Isaac didn't. Isaac was just as or more popular than Shulk is (in Japan and outside it), Golden Sun sold much better, and received very similar average reviews.
Of course, like I've said a couple times already, I believe the bar has been slightly lowered, and compared to who was included in Brawl maybe GS and some other series didn't merit inclusion, but now with lesser competition they do. Fire Emblem apparently didn't merit inclusion during 64, but (with one more fairly averagely received game -- similar to GS's Dark Dawn) it did for Melee.
Or, another possibility is that Sakurai could've originally had another series, like GS, or Starfy or something planned at one point (actually he did, but we'll probably never know which one it was), but for one reason or another had to cut them. He's not going say something like "Well, no series other than Pikmin, Animal Crossing, Nintendogs, and X merited inclusion, but we couldn't include an X character." He wouldn't give away his hand like that, sometimes developers have to play dumb. Of course, that's just a theory, but we can't possibly expect Sakurai to be completely truthful with us.
Either way, if GS didn't merit inclusion, I don't see how a series like Xenoblade would either, really the only (non-retro) ones that still would would be Punch-Out and Wii. Of course, if we are to take Sakurai at face value, I still believe that, with every successive game, the bar has been slightly lowered, opening inclusion to characters and series who wouldn't have merited it previously, of which GS and Xenoblade still have an IMO fair chance.
First off, Xenoblade is owned wholly by Nintendo. By default that means there isn't restrictions when it comes to any of that fancy paper work. The game is not even that obscure ether; hell, due the sheer support it averted the fate of no localization, a rare fate in this day and age. If Project X has any indication, it seems like the series might press on forward too and be expanded further.
Second, Golden Sun as a whole is not as popular in Japan. Issac in particular has very little support in Japan for a playable role in Super Smash Bros.
Third, there is no proof that Fire Emblem was even considered for Smash 64. As such that statement falls flat, and no none of those vague rumors count.
First off, Xenoblade is owned wholly by Nintendo. By default that means there isn't restrictions when it comes to any of that fancy paper work. The game is not even that obscure ether; hell, due the sheer support it averted the fate of no localization, a rare fate in this day and age. If Project X has any indication, it seems like the series might press on forward too and be expanded further.
Yeah, Shulk would be easier to add, no doubt, but simplicity of legality has no bearing on the actual merit of the character. If it did, we wouldn't have already received 2nd and 3rd party characters.
Also, Xenoblade isn't ridiculously obscure, you're right, but it is more obscure now than Golden Sun was at Brawl's time, and Golden Sun, with its larger audience, (apparently) still didn't merit inclusion in Sakurai's mind. If he hasn't changed his standards (even though I think he has) then Xenoblade (which sold less than half of GS1 -- and would require X to sell about 1.4 mil to even be at where GS was pre-Brawl -- though Sakurai would've decided the roster much before the eventual reception of X) would merit inclusion no more than GS did. I know sales aren't everything ofc, but they are a decent indicator of rough audience size. I'm not saying Xenoblade doesn't merit inclusion now, I also think Shulk deserves to be included, I'm saying Golden Sun in general has had a larger impact than Xenoblade, which is what Sakurai looks at.
Second, Golden Sun as a whole is not as popular in Japan. Issac in particular has very little support in Japan for a playable role in Super Smash Bros.
That's why I used past tense to describe Isaac's Japanese popularity. Golden Sun and Isaac used to be more popular in Japan than Xenoblade and Shulk are now though (both in general and for Smash).
Third, there is no proof that Fire Emblem was even considered for Smash 64. As such that statement falls flat, and no none of those vague rumors count.
I know, that's why it would be reasonable to assume Sakurai didn't have any concrete plans for a FE character in 64, hence them not meriting inclusion for one Smash game, but meriting inclusion with only one more average game in the next, potentially similar to Golden Sun.
That's possible sure, (and I know you didn't bring this up, but some people do) but I fail to see how Shulk would merit inclusion in Sakurai's mind if Isaac didn't. Isaac was just as or more popular than Shulk is (in Japan and outside it), Golden Sun sold much better, and received very similar average reviews.
It takes more than merely sales to merit, seeing as before Brawl's time, Pikmin wasn't near Animal Crossing's level (and still isn't), yet Sakurai felt it was just as warranted. What exactly determines merit to Sakurai, no one can really answer but Sakurai himself, however, whatever it is, Isaac doesn't have it.
Aside from that, Isaac and the Golden Sun series in general has never been popular in Japan even to this day, unlike Shulk and Xenoblade (Hell, remember what Chrono said? Shulk is the most requested character of a non-represented series there) In fact, the only reason why Golden Sun has more sales than Xenoblade at this point is because of America, the only country that seems to actually care about the series (that, and it's comparing a 3-game series to one that currently has only one title that may or may not get another).
Of course, like I've said a couple times already, I believe the bar has been slightly lowered, and compared to who was included in Brawl maybe GS and some other series didn't merit inclusion, but now with lesser competition they do. Fire Emblem apparently didn't merit inclusion during 64, but (with one more fairly averagely received game -- similar to GS's Dark Dawn) it did for Melee.
Using what Sakurai has specifically said in regards to 2001 and up series as an argument for other series like Fire Emblem is foolish for multiple reasons:
-We have no idea what his thought process was of the Fire Emblem series overall back then, so to make assumptions makes you come off as being biased.
-All series in Smash 64 save for the two unlockable ones (for their own reasons) were pretty much big names for Nintendo at the time (or were starting to, in the case of Pokemon), which Fire Emblem really wasn't. I doubt F-Zero or Mother was either, but you have to remember that Falcon is a favorite of Sakurai and he DID fit the model of Smash's prototype characters, as well as Hal Labs having a hand in Mother, making a secret character from one of their notable games not so farfetched. Not saying that's what happened, but it makes logical sense.
-Marth was heavily demanded in Japan for Melee, being 11th on Sakurai's pre-Melee poll, as well as being the most requested character from a non-represented series by Nintendo (as Goldeneye and Banjo-Kazooie aren't exactly Nintendo franchises). Even if Sakurai didn't think much of the Fire Emblem series (to which we cannot prove), something like that cannot possibly be ignored.
Or, another possibility is that Sakurai could've originally had another series, like GS, or Starfy or something planned at one point (actually he did, but we'll probably never know which one it was), but for one reason or another had to cut them. He's not going say something like "Well, no series other than Pikmin, Animal Crossing, Nintendogs, and X merited inclusion, but we couldn't include an X character." He wouldn't give away his hand like that, sometimes developers have to play dumb. Of course, that's just a theory, but we can't possibly expect Sakurai to be completely truthful with us.
At the same time, we can't expect him to lie about what he believes in.
Aside from that, notice that Animal Crossing doesn't have a character, yet he said he felt it warranted one and even said that he COULD'VE have had one. If it were the case that he would keep a non-represented series secret, he wouldn't have brought up Animal Crossing. At that point, the whole statement becomes meaningless and/or a glorification to Pikmin. Meaning, he wouldn't have said ANYTHING rather than say what has been said.
Either way, if GS didn't merit inclusion, I don't see how a series like Xenoblade would either, really the only (non-retro) ones that still would would be Punch-Out and Wii. Of course, if we are to take Sakurai at face value, I still believe that, with every successive game, the bar has been slightly lowered, opening inclusion to characters and series who wouldn't have merited it previously, of which GS and Xenoblade still have an IMO fair chance.
Seeing as you're looking at sales alone, then no, Punch-Out would not be one either by your evaluations. Like Golden Sun, Punch-Out is not really popular in Japan. The main differences between the two series though, is that Punch-Out's popularity outside Japan is noteworthy WITHIN it, Sakurai has made positive remarks out of Little Mac by referring to him as a "legend", and the series' post-Brawl title is considerably popular and has done decently saleswise in at least ONE corner of the globe.
That, and seeing as the series debuted in the early 80s, it doesn't exactly have the same stigma that would negatively affect it like Golden Sun does regarding Sakurai's statement.
So yeah, if going by your method of "sales make the grade", then no, Little Mac would not be "worthy". However, you have to look outside the sales figures if you want to have a better chance at evaluating "worth".
It's not like any of us can really truly tell what Sakurai plans to do at this stage. It's better to wait until we get the E3 trailer and see what new figures he's chosen so we may have a vague idea of what his standards are this time as opposed to using past games as an idea. I have a feeling SSBU is going to be a bit different from them, though to what degree I can't tell.
Anyways, I'm very much so in support of Isaac for SSBU. I love the GS series, and was disappointed (if happy he appeared at all) that he was only an AT. Here's hoping he'll get in this game. Presumably over Matthew and in his original incarnation, though I have no objections to Matthew himself. I just have a hard time seeing him get in over Isaac without Camelot asking for him in particular, as Isaac is still the face of the series to the majority of people.
Can someone link me to that statement. For some reason I don't take it too seriously or see it as that detrimental to Isaac but I'll have to see it to make my judgement call.
I really don't see where Isaac is much different from Little Mac. Both come from series with recent revivals, and both characters are mostly suggested by western fans.
Also, both are Assist Trophies in Brawl. And if they promote one Assist Trophy to playable status, sure they're gonna look at others for potential movesets.
5 characters especially stand out: Lyn, Little Mac, Isaac, Saki and Samurai Goroh. These characters all still have a shot at being made playable. And Isaac stands out from the rest cause he's from his own series (a more well known series also than Saki's), uses Psynergy, had music content in Brawl, and is still relevant to his series (which kinda goes against Lyn, Saki and Goroh). So only Little Mac would be more viable imo.
Now that I think about it, Waluigi might also become upgraded to playable status but I prefer not to think about that.
Diddy: You forgot Starfy. (-;^;- ) I never forgive you
If anything though, I just wish SSB4 would give more recognition to these series we're seen rather underrated (again) in this current gen. I wouldn't mind if Nintendo was to make more notable new IPs aside from Xenoblade ( and NOT JUST FOR FREAKING ESHOP), but since they don't, I just wish SSB4 would go more in-depth introducing these series which are fan-favorites.
It takes more than merely sales to merit, seeing as before Brawl's time, Pikmin wasn't near Animal Crossing's level (and still isn't), yet Sakurai felt it was just as warranted.
I know it takes more that sales to merit inclusion, that's why I also mentioned popularity and critical reception when comparing Isaac and Shulk (sales were the only one they really differed on), as they both obviously also pass Sakurai's four criteria. Really, I only mentioned sales in the first place to give a rough (very rough) gauge of GS and Xenoblade's respective lifetime audiences.
And we can't assume that Sakurai felt AC and Pikmin were the same level of merit, just that both did merit inclusion. That'd be like assuming the inclusion of Mario and Fox were just as warranted because they were added at the same time. Sure Fox was warranted, but not as much as Mario, no one was. All we know is that in Sakurai's mind they both merited inclusion, not that they had equal merit.
What exactly determines merit to Sakurai, no one can really answer but Sakurai himself, however, whatever it is, Isaac doesn't have it.
Again, we can only assume Isaac didn't have it for Brawl. If Sakurai wants to keep the same level of standards that he had for Brawl, really very few new Nintendo series would merit inclusion (including Xenoblade), but as shown in past games, some previous series that didn't merit inclusion eventually do, as the roster allows for more characters, and the bar gradually gets lower. I'm not saying GS definitely will merit inclusion this time, I'm saying since the standards decrease slightly every game, it is a possibility.
Aside from that, Isaac and the Golden Sun series in general has never been popular in Japan even to this day, unlike Shulk and Xenoblade (Hell, remember what Chrono said? Shulk is the most requested character of a non-represented series there) In fact, the only reason why Golden Sun has more sales than Xenoblade at this point is because of America, the only country that seems to actually care about the series (that, and it's comparing a 3-game series to one that currently has only one title that may or may not get another).
I've never denied that Golden Sun has lost a fair bit of its popularity in Japan, and it's clear that Shulk has more popularity now, but it's untrue to say Golden Sun never had popularity in Japan, and that it was only ever fueled by the west. Pre-Brawl Isaac had a fair bit of support in Japan, I'd wager one of the most for unrepresented series reps, feel free to ask Chrono about that, he'll confirm it. Golden Sun really only lost its popularity in Japan around the time of Dark Dawn. It's also untrue that America was the only source of GS's sales. In Japan, GS1 sold over 300k, and Xenoblade has sold under 200k. The sequel sold 250k, still more than Xenoblade. Yes, the west provided the majority of Golden Sun's sales, but Golden Sun did sell a decent amount (for Japan) and had a decent amount of popularity there at one time as well. Xenoblade, while more popular now, has never been more popular than Golden Sun was at its peak.
Using what Sakurai has specifically said in regards to 2001 and up series as an argument for other series like Fire Emblem is foolish for multiple reasons:
-We have no idea what his thought process was of the Fire Emblem series overall back then, so to make assumptions makes you come off as being biased.
-All series in Smash 64 save for the two unlockable ones (for their own reasons) were pretty much big names for Nintendo at the time (or were starting to, in the case of Pokemon), which Fire Emblem really wasn't. I doubt F-Zero or Mother was either, but you have to remember that Falcon is a favorite of Sakurai and he DID fit the model of Smash's prototype characters, as well as Hal Labs having a hand in Mother, making a secret character from one of their notable games not so farfetched. Not saying that's what happened, but it makes logical sense.
-Marth was heavily demanded in Japan for Melee, being 11th on Sakurai's pre-Melee poll, as well as being the most requested character from a non-represented series by Nintendo (as Goldeneye and Banjo-Kazooie aren't exactly Nintendo franchises). Even if Sakurai didn't think much of the Fire Emblem series (to which we cannot prove), something like that cannot possibly be ignored.
It's true that FE isn't the best example, as a few unfounded assumptions and guesses need to be made (which is never a good way to prove a point), but all I was saying with it was that in one game, Sakurai didn't have any immediate plans to include a FE character. It's possible that one was on the table at one point, but clearly by looking at the confirmed cut characters, it wasn't a priority, if it existed at all. In the next game, FE had hardly become any more popular or well-known, all it had was an average game met with lukewarm reception (similar in some ways to Dark Dawn), yet, like I said above, because the roster got expanded, and the merit for inclusion got slightly lessened, FE warranted a rep. All I'm saying is that, while not exactly parallel to Golden Sun (and trying to compare the series directly is a flawed argument), the bar for addition did get slightly more inclusive to series previously not meriting inclusion. At this point (in general, not recently - and excluding series Sakurai has deemed unworkable for playability) Golden Sun is one of the larger remaining series. I'm not saying they're guaranteed a playable spot, far from it, I'm saying that just going by general impact of the series, Golden Sun would be one of the next in line, when the bar does get lower, which it does each game, with FE being an example of that.
At the same time, we can't expect him to lie about what he believes in.
Aside from that, notice that Animal Crossing doesn't have a character, yet he said he felt it warranted one and even said that he COULD'VE have had one. If it were the case that he would keep a non-represented series secret, he wouldn't have brought up Animal Crossing. At that point, the whole statement becomes meaningless and/or a glorification to Pikmin. Meaning, he wouldn't have said ANYTHING rather than say what has been said.
Well, first off, Sakurai said (in relation to new series not meriting reps) "One thing that was kind of a challenge is that we haven't had a lot of new characters from Nintendo since Captain Olimar [that could work well in a fighting game]; a lot of games have been Mario titles or new iterations of existing series." Characters such as Isaac or Saki (and now Shulk - since he debuted after this comment) technically aren't affected by this comment, as they existed before Olimar did, and Sakurai stated post-Olimar. The only legitimate candidate this could really apply to would be Starfy (and perhaps the Mii).
Secondly, like I said in my other points, it could be true that Sakurai didn't find merit in any series not playable in Brawl (plus AC and Nintendogs), but while we can speculate that Sakurai still holds the same rigid mentality he did then, we can't know for sure that he wouldn't now find merit in more series, as several have grown past what they were in Brawl's times, even if not to a great extent, given that Sakurai has included past series in follow up games after very little actual growth. Especially if we consider the possibility of the regulations for addition being more lax.
Also, there have been examples of developers lying to hide future developments of the game or the series, Sakurai not giving the full truth wouldn't be without precedent. Developers don't want to tip their hat too much about the future, even if that means backpedaling on what they previously said, or telling white lies. I'm not saying Sakurai definitely did lie or wasn't completely open, I'm saying that it could be possible.
Seeing as you're looking at sales alone, then no, Punch-Out would not be one either by your evaluations. Like Golden Sun, Punch-Out is not really popular in Japan. The main differences between the two series though, is that Punch-Out's popularity outside Japan is noteworthy WITHIN it, Sakurai has made positive remarks out of Little Mac by referring to him as a "legend", and the series' post-Brawl title is considerably popular and has done decently saleswise in at least ONE corner of the globe.
That, and seeing as the series debuted in the early 80s, it doesn't exactly have the same stigma that would negatively affect it like Golden Sun does regarding Sakurai's statement.
So yeah, if going by your method of "sales make the grade", then no, Little Mac would not be "worthy". However, you have to look outside the sales figures if you want to have a better chance at evaluating "worth".
I wasn't looking at sales alone, I just highlighted sales because that's really where GS and Xenoblade differed. I mentioned other aspects as well, but even if we just look at sales (which I agree is not the only, nor the best thing to look at), Punch-Out would merit a character more than the other two. Punch-Out for the NES sold around 2 million copies, slightly more than both GS1&2 together. Throw in Super Punch-Out (which I can't find sales figures for, but we can assume is at least a couple hundred k) and Punch-Out Wii (which sold 1.8 mil) compared to GS's lifetime sales (which are probably around 2.2-2.3 mil), and Punch-Out still comes out on top, and higher than any unrepresented series (that we can assume Sakurai would find workable) other than Wii. I agree sales don't amount for much though, I just use them to show the rough audience amount, but Little Mac also has quite a (localized, but strong) amount of popularity as well, more (in general) than any other unrepresented series rep (because the west greatly outnumbers the east), as well as having a title this gen more successful (audience-amount wise) than either Dark Dawn or Xenoblade (or any other title from a potential new series candidate, excluding the Mii) and having more titles in his series (even if they don't star him) than GS or Xenoblade. That's why Little Mac (while not at the same level as the Mii) would be more meriting than either Isaac or Shulk, and could still merit inclusion by Sakurai's Brawl standards.
I only mentioned America specifically because Golden did. The rest of the time I group things in east (Japan) and west (not Japan). Though Australia technically is also east...
I didn't forget Europeans (I am one), there is just very little accurate sales data from Europe, and popularity trends tend to be pretty similar as NA.
Plus, unfortunately, chances are the PAL region's popularity trends would be prioritized last by Sakurai.
I'm affraid that's true yeah... He just probably regards us all as 'westerns' though, and since the Americans like to voice their opinion the loudest, their opinion could be considered as 'western opinion' was a whole.
Didn't know you where European btw, as your location says Vancouver.
I'm affraid that's true yeah... He just probably regards us all as 'westerns' though, and since the Americans like to voice their opinion the loudest, their opinion could be considered as 'western opinion' was a whole.
Didn't know you where European btw, as your location says Vancouver.
Yeah, at least, like I said, there are very few differences between NA and European popularity. I'd say the main difference at this point is that Little Mac doesn't have very much popularity in Europe either. Probably more than in Japan (he pretty much never comes up in conversations about Smash there), but unlike Ridley or Isaac, Little Mac's popularity is truly pretty much purely North American (I know there might be Europeans on here who support him, but for the most part I've found his popularity is by far the strongest in NA specifically).
It'd be funny though if Isaac got in, because for some reason he has like four names (Robin, Isaac, Vlad, and Hans) which would all need to be recorded and altered depending on region, as opposed to one or two. I have no idea why GS characters need so many names.
And yeah, I'm European, I've just lived in Vancouver for a while now.
I moved to NA when they were getting most of the localized titles (not because of that ofc) and now that Europe is getting more than NA is, I'm kicking myself.
I wouldn't say he's getting steadily popular, it's more like he's somehow managed to maintain his (at this point fairly long-lasting) popularity. In Japan though it's steadily decreased over the last couple of years, which is unfortunate, but not unexpected, for a number of reasons.
Not? Wouldn't really say so. Then again, it COULD be. Think it depends on the country though.
I really think I do not want any other new series character besides Isaac actually.
Little Mac indeed is far less popular here. Never seen Punch Out amongst people their Wii titles. And I don't have it either. Neither did I play the original(s). But I can see why he's worthy of being added though. I don't really support him, but am not against him either. Wouldn't be upset if he wouldn't make the roster at all, just surprised.
Isaac has so many names though?? I knew about Robin, but Hans (lol), Vlad??? Ok, that's new for me. Are those the German, French and Spanish names for Isaac?
I'm still expecting Isaac, though if he doesn't get in I really do doubt GS getting into SSB at all. We need a new game from the series, but with how poorly (from what I've gathered) Dark Sun did it's hard to see them taking a risk on it. Maybe they should do a remake of the first two on the 3DS, updated, which might get more attention before they move on to the next branch of the game. Of course, if they did that I'd say Isaac being included is much higher than it was previously in the next SSB.
And there are a couple from other series not yet in SSB, but not too many for me. Though would like seeing Golden Sun get two new reps, since I think Alex would be a lot of fun to play as too.
A bundled remake would be awesome yeah! Whoa, that would make me buy a 3DS instantly! Don't care if I have to do a bank robbery for that. I want them to have ALL MY MONEY when they do this.
Well with the amount of JRPGs there, and the fact that unlike in the west it's still a major popular genre there, it's not surprising if one series loses popularity when it isn't followed up for several years, only to get a so-so follow-up. Really series that get very few spread-out installments but maintain a high popularity there like Mother are quite the anomaly.
I really think I do not want any other new series character besides Isaac actually.
Haha, well even though Isaac is definitely my most wanted, personally I would also quite like to see Shulk as well. His game was great, I liked the character, and I'd like to see what he could bring to Smash. Other than those two though, I really have no interest in any other non-represented series (though I'd like to get Mega Man, but he's a bit different).
Isaac has so many names though?? I knew about Robin, but Hans (lol), Vlad??? Ok, that's new for me. Are those the German, French and Spanish names for Isaac?
Well Robin is the Japanese name, and IIRC Vlad is the French name and Hans is the Spanish one. I think he's still called Isaac in the German copies of GS, but don't quote me on that. I don't really get why he needs that many either. Though most GS characters have multiple names, Mia is also Mary and Sofia, and Felix is Pavel and Garcia, as examples. I think Isaac is the only one with four names though.
And yeah, I'm actually a bunch of things (not just of European descent either) but mostly French. I actually moved to NA before GS though, so I grew up calling Isaac Isaac, and not Vlad.
Well with the amount of JRPGs there, and the fact that unlike in the west it's still a major popular genre there, it's not surprising if one series loses popularity when it isn't followed up for several years, only to get a so-so follow-up. Really series that get very few spread-out installments but maintain a high popularity there like Mother are quite the anomaly.
Exactly. And besides Pokemon and Fire Emblem, Golden Sun is just about one of the more well known wholy Nintendo-owned RPGs. Xenoblade is also pretty well known now, but as N3ON said, it did never reach the peak Golden Sun did. And if Samus could enter Smash 64, so can Isaac make it in Smash 4.
And yeah, I'm actually a bunch of things (not just of European descent either) but mostly French. I actually moved to NA before GS though, so I grew up calling Isaac Isaac, and not Vlad.
Diddy: You forgot Starfy. (-;^;- ) I never forgive you
If anything though, I just wish SSB4 would give more recognition to these series we're seen rather underrated (again) in this current gen. I wouldn't mind if Nintendo was to make more notable new IPs aside from Xenoblade ( and NOT JUST FOR FREAKING ESHOP), but since they don't, I just wish SSB4 would go more in-depth introducing these series which are fan-favorites.
Also not unrelated, am currently watching a Dark Dawn playthrough by someone here from this forum. I didn't even know, till I checked his other videos. Dude got a tight Zero Suit Samus. Nick Riddle is his name, and watching the playthrough is pretty entertaining.
That's really well done. I like the moveset! Up Smash is Growth? D Air is Spire? Those are some great ideas! Sure, it looks a little... dodgy, but it's a cool concept so far.
My friend and I came up with two movesets for Isaac:
B: Summon Djinni (Isaac predictably cycles through 4 Djinn each performing various attacks. Flint/Echo will cause Isaac to rush to an enemy and perform a two combo attack that sends them flying in the air. Other possibilities could include Sap where he steals health; Granite reduces Isaac's knock-back for a short period of time; Ground could summon balls to a target location and put the enemy into a knock-down state; etc etc etc.)
B^: Retreat. Functions similarly to Farore's Wind
B>: Move. (Isaac channels for a brief moment and summons a giant hand that moves across the screen pushing enemies back.)
Bv: Ragnarok. (Isaac charges and summons the legendary blade over his head and sends at an angle in front of him.)
Final Smash: Summon. Summons will be based off Golden Sun Dark Dawn. (Isaac casts a summon depending on the number of Summons he has charged in one life.
Venus: Summons a barrage of Earth synergy from under the opponent to send them flying.
Ramses: Ramses will burst out of his pyramid and propel his fist towards the opponent(s).
Cybele: Mother Earth will breath life into the Earth and blow Cybele in front of the opponents, Cybele will then dig into the ground dealing initial damage and cause vines to violently sprout from beneath the enemies.
Judgment: Judgment launches a great ball of energy that explodes and deals a large amount of damage to anyone caught in the blast vicinity.)
=========================
B: Summon Djinn. (This time the summons will be Flint, Forge, Gust, and Sleet. Forge would buff your attack damage slightly for a period of time. Gust will cause Isaac to dash to an opponent and deal two swift strikes, there will be a small chance to deal critical damage. Sleet will attack by sending a flurry of shards at the opponent.)
B>: Move
B^: Catch. (This acts as a tether similar to Ivysaur's B^)
Bv: Gaia (Isaac charges Gaia and erupts a stream of Venus psynergy from underneath the opponent)
Final Smash: Meggido. (Isaac's Sol Blade let out a roar! Isaac leaps into the air and and smashes downward with the strength of a sun, dealing large amounts of damage.)
I wrote this essay a while back, and I've posted bits and pieces of it before, but I thought I might as well post the whole thing. It's an essay meant to teach people who Isaac was. Not necessarily sway them one way or the other. Tell me what you think.
Welcome to my series of potential character essays. Ever hear a character suggestion for SSB4 and think "Who the heck is this guy?" These essays are for you. These essays will go over the history of the character, the abilities of the character, arguments for and against the character and finally a potential move set. I hope to introduce people to likely newcomers to SSB4 and to help people learn a bit more about characters they already knew. So let's get into the fray! Feel free to comment or even suggest characters if you like. I'm open to suggestions as long as I have time to write.
Essay 3:
Name: Isaac
Series: Golden Sun Gender: Male First Appearance: Golden Sun (2001)
Character Biography:
Isaac was born in the small mountain village of Vale which rests at the base of Mt. Aleph. At first he lived in peace with his parents and friends. Like his parents, Isaac is an Venus adept. One day, a great storm happens to knock a boulder loose from the mountain and the town is in panic. This is where Golden Sun starts. During the panic, Isaac and his best friend Garet met two mysterious individuals. They are defeated by the individuals and tossed aside.
Yeah... Owned almost instantly.
Due to the boulder crashing through the town was destroyed and Isaac's father, and Jenna's (A good friend of Isaac) mother, father and brother (named Felix) disappeared.
Isaac grew up to be a Venus Adept while Garet and Jenna became Mars adepts. They became students of the wise old man Kraden. While going about their business, the two mysterious figures return to Vale and are spotted by Isaac, Garet, Jenna and Kraden. The group overhears some mysterious information about the Sol Sanctum and decide to see if it is true.. Once there, the group of heroes realize that they beat the strangers there. Out of curiosity, Kraden orders Isaac and Garet to take the elemental stars off of their pedestals (for scientific purposes of course). The boys gather three of the four stars but before they can grab the last one. The strangers appear and take Kraden and Jenna hostage. The two introduce themselves as Saturos and Menardi and reveal the other two members of their group: a mercury adept named Alex and Felix! Isaac and Garet decide to give the three stars to the villains and move on the grab the fourth one. Before they can get it back to the villains they are interrupted by the volcano erupting which is interrupted by the Wise One. The villains escape and take Kraden and Jenna as hostages, just in case. The Wise One then rescues Isaac and Garet and tells them about the elemental stars. There Isaac learns that the villain's plan is to light all of the elemental lighthouses which would cause the restoration of Alchemy to the world ( a bad thing, as alchemy can easily be abused). Isaac and Garet are tasked by The Wise One to get them back and so they go on your standard JRPG adventure to stop them.
Complete with heartwarming send off.
On the way to the first lighthouse, they meet a boy named Ivan (a Jupiter adept) who joins their party and some Djinn
Once the group reaches the first lighthouse they meet Mia (a mercury adept) who joins the party as well. They venture into the Mercury Lighthouse and discover that they are too late. The beacon has been lit. The group of heroes find the villains with Kraden and Jenna. Saturos tells the others to go on ahead and he fights the heroes atop the lighthouse. Fortunately he is defeated but escapes with Alex's help. Isaac then ventures to the next lighthouse to stop them.
After a long adventure (most of the game) the group finally reaches the next lighthouse. They scale the Venus lighthouse and find the villains yet again. They lighthouse has not been lit yet and the villains also have a new hostage. A girl named Sheba. Saturos and Mernardi decide that Isaac's group has lived enough and attack! They are defeated and Isaac tries to reason with Felix but he refuses. Suddenly Saturos and Mernadi jump back up, light the lighthouse and fuse together to form a giant dragon in a last ditch effort to defeat the heroes.
Uh-oh is right.
Felix and his hostages watch the fight. Isaac and friends defeat the dragon, but the Lighthouse splits in two separating Felix's group from our heroes. After searching for Felix and finding nothing, the heroes head off to the next lighthouse. This is where Golden Sun ends.
In Golden Sun: The Lost Age, Isaac is not seen for much of the game, as the story is told from Felix's perspective.
Regardless, Isaac's group makes its way to the Jupiter Lighthouse where they are ambushed by Karst and Agatio (Hey Gak, it’s you!). These two want revenge for the murder of Saturos and Mernardi. They separate Isaac's group and ambush Isaac and Ivan.
Garet and Mia are somewhere else.
Felix with his own party (made up of Jenna, Sheba, new recruit Piers and NPC Kraden) save Isaac and light the lighthouse. Isaac demands an explanation of Felix's action and Felix tells some incredible new information. Lighting the lighthouses isn't evil. It's good actually as alchemy will ultimately save the world from destruction. Felix has also been working with Saturos and Mernardi because they saved and captured his parents. He was working with them to earn their freedom.
After some consideration, The two groups join together and decide to light the final lighthouse. They reach it and once they make it to the top of Mars Lighthouse, they are confronted by The Wise One. The Wise One is angry that Isaac betrayed him and asks why he did so. Isaac tells The Wise One that the world will perish if the lighthouses are not lit. The Wise One counters by saying that people will destroy the world if given that much power and revealed that Alex had played them for fools. Alex was waiting on top of Mt. Aleph (where the restoration of Alchemy would start) so that he would receive power and immortality.
For justice!!!
Isaac and his friends decide to go through with it, but the Wise One summons a giant three headed dragon. After a long battle, it is revealed that the dragon was a fusion of Felix's parents and Isaac's father. Everyone is horrified but they light the lighthouse anyways.
From here, we get a heart warming ending. Felix's parents and Isaac's father recover from there injuries due to the power of the lighthouse. One more thing! Turns out after all four lighthouses were lit, Mt. Aleph sunk into the ground. Completely destroying Vale!
Oops...
But everyone made it out okay. The Wise One actually warned the people of Vale and they managed a complete evacuation. Kraden guesses the the Wise One actually knew this would happen and simply used the dragon to test Isaac's heart. In the end, Isaac's family is restored and everything seems right in the world.
I'm gonna cry....*sniff*
Unfortunately, Alex still got more power and immortality but not all of it. The Wise One, being wise, set things up so that while some power went to Alex, the other part went to Isaac. This is where the second Golden Sun game ends.
In Golden Sun: Dark Dawn, Isaac's son, Matthew takes the center stage.
Like father like son?
In this game Isaac (along with Garet) live in a cottage on the Goma Plateau with their sons. Here Isaac and Garet are computer contolled allies and will help Matthew and Karis (Ivan's daughter) rescue Tyrell (Garet's son) after crashing a Soarwing. After the rescue, he sends the kids to gather materials needed to repair the Soarwing. After the kids leave however, he and Garet disappear. It is currently unknown what happened to them.
The world will never see a better beard.
Game Appearances:
Golden Sun (Main Playable Character)
Golden Sun: The Lost Age (Main Playable Character)
Super Smash Bros Brawl (Assist Trophy and Trophy)
Golden Sun: Dark Dawn (Computer Controlled Ally) Isaac has been playable twice as of now.
Abilities:
Isaac is skillful with a sword. He uses it quite a bit in his games as it is his default attack. He also is known for a famous leaping jump attack.
Isaac uses a power called Psyenergy. Psyenergy is best described as psychic ability combined with magic. Isaac is able to preform many spells with Psyenergy. Several are used for navigation and exploration. A dew notable ones include move, teleport, force, and carry, He is also able to use several offensive spells. Since Isaac is a Venus adept, he has the power of earth. This allows him to use techniques like quake, spire, growth and gaia.
And each one has a flashy animation!
Isaac has befriended small creatures known as Djinn. Djinn can give him stat boosts and can even assist him in battle. Setting a Djinn will boost the adepts stats and can even change their class. These Djinn come in four types. Venus (Earth) Mars(Fire) Jupiter (Wind) and Mercury (Water). Set Djinn can be used in battle and will do a variety of things when used. After a set Djinn is used is goes on Standby. When enough Djinn are in standby, Isaac can use his ultimate techniques.
Earth, Air, Fire, Water! WE ARE CAPTAIN DJINN!
Isaac can summon powerful entities using the power of the Djinn on standby. These summons will do massive amounts of damage to enemies.
Debate:
Reasons Why Isaac Should Be In:
1. He would represent a new series: Golden Sun is a new series that is not yet represented in smash bros via character. It's a popular series. Why not include him?
2. He's a popular character: Isaac often shows up on character want lists. People want him in.
You know you want him.
3. He is a unique character that could have a very interesting moveset: He uses a psychic power and magic, along with a sword. We haven't had anything like that yet.
Reasons Why Isaac Should Not Be In:
1. Golden Sun is a niche series: Golden Sun only appeals to a select group of gamers. It certainly doesn't have the fanbase of Mario, Pokemon or Zelda or even F-Zero. Yes Mother is another niche series but it is a lot bigger and more popular than Golden Sun.
2.Golden Sun just isn't that popular anymore: Sure Golden Sun was popular back in the early 2000s but that was ages ago. Dark Dawn wasn't as well revived as it's predecessors an it just isn't on the mind of most Nintendo fans.
3. He's ANOTHER sword user: Smash has a lot of sword users. We don't need any more.
Look! It's even in his sprite!
Possible Moveset: Disclaimer! This moveset is an example and will need changing in the future. Please suggest improvements. :D Neutral B: Isaac will stand in place and charge his sword. The sword can have three degrees of charge. When releasing the button Isaac will stab the opponent. If it hits, a flashy animation happens. If not, he simply stabs forward. If Isaac hits in the first charge, Ragnarok (A Giant Energy Sword) will apear in the stab animation. If Isaac hits with the second charge, Two Ragnarok will come out. If Isaac hit with the third charge, Oddessy (Three Giant Energy Swords) will happen.
Side B: Isaac casts Move. Isaac will shoot a small hand from his hand and will push the opponent back. This will do no damage. Great for edgeguarding.
Up B: Isaac casts retreat. Isaac will teleport to a different place depending on where the control stick is tilted.
Down B: Isaac casts quake. Isaac will slam his fist into the ground and have two pillars of earth appear behind and in front of him. This attack will launch enemies straight up.
Final Smash: Isaac summons Judgement who flies into the background. Judgement will charge a giant energy ball for and fire at the stage. The ball is about half the size of Final Destination. This has about as much knock back as Zelda's Light Arrows but a MUCH bigger range.
Images made by Pwnagemaster67
Codec Call!
Snake: "Mei Ling... There's another kid with a sword here." Mei Ling: "Ah... This one's a bit different than the others. His name is Isaac and he's a Venus Adept." Snake: "Venus Adept? He's from space?!?" Mei Ling: "No... He's from a mountain village called Vale where people learn how to use Psyenergy. It's kind of like magic and psychic ability combined. There are four kinds of Psyenegry, each one representing a certain element. Isaac is a Venus Adept so he specializes on earth magic." Snake: "Earth magic huh... Well that's new."
I hope you enjoyed this essay. I hope I can write another one soon. Please say what you think. Are there more reasons why Isaac should or should not be in? Did you learn something about him? Did you come up with a great moveset? Did you enjoy the essay? Comment away!
Great essay Swampasaur, when I get around to cleaning up the OP (darn collapse tags not working anymore ) I'll probably add parts of it (like the plot description, which I only bothered to give the most basic of overviews ).
Those points wouldn't exactly be my reasoning for and against Isaac though, but I do agree with some of them.
(and although F-Zero does have a bigger fanbase due to Captain Falcon's Smash appearances, the anime, and having more games, the two original Golden Sun games both outsold any and all of the F-Zero games by at least double -- so just comparing the core games in each series, the niche-ness would be pretty close. And yes, I know sales aren't everything, I just use them to gauge audience size).
A Golden Sun Wii U would be gorgeous. I would love running around Weyard messing stuff up with my Psynergy.
And of course, Summon cutscenes.
Though with Camelot relegated to supplying Mario with golf clubs and tennis rackets, I'd say for now it'll probably just remain a pipe dream. Chances are once they finish with that 3DS Mario Golf that was inevitable, they'll move on to the Wii U. Hopefully in between some of those games they'll have time for something else (it doesn't even have to be Golden Sun... well... yes it does ) but Nintendo probably sees playing it safe with new Mario sports games is a much smarter investment than letting them make another GS at this point. Hopefully Isaac potentially getting in SSB4 will change that.
I am just going to throw this out there to give some Isaac fans out there some more hope. On the Smash 4 poll to this site, Isaac is the fifth most wanted newcomer for Smash 4. On the poll that Shortie is circulating among various Smash Bros. communities, Isaac is the 6th most wanted newcomer for Smash 4. Overall, I believe in the Western fanbase Isaac is around the 5th/6th most wanted newcomer (basically on par with Little Mac for requests, but below the Big 4: Mewtwo, Ridley, Mega Man, K. Rool).
That Isaac's popularity has held up for so long despite the last really good game in the series being released a decade ago really shows the magic that two GBA games had, and the love and memories that people who played those games have to this day.
Its possible that Dark Dawn did bring in some new fans to the series, and while the the latest game was not a success on par with the GBA titles, it at least kept the series from falling into obscurity.
Right now, Camelot is making a new Mario Golf game for the 3DS (which is scheduled to be released later this year). Camelot already released a new Mario Tennis game last year.
Thw question is what will be their next project after this? I think they are too small now to make a Wii U title, and that can't go years without making any more new games.
One thing to keep in mind is that Virtual Console Game Boy Advance games will start to release later this year. The release of the two GBA Golden Sun games will serve to purposes to potentially help Isaac:
1. Bring in new fans to the series.
2. Show Camelot just how much interest there is in the series.
I am not sure if I remembering things correctly, but I think the decent sales of Sin & Punishment on the Virtual Console served as an impetus for Treasure to make Sin & Punishment 2.
So those are some bright spots for you Isaac supporters.
I am just going to throw this out there to give some Isaac fans out there some more hope. On the Smash 4 poll to this site, Isaac is the fifth most wanted newcomer for Smash 4. On the poll that Shortie is circulating among various Smash Bros. communities, Isaac is the 6th most wanted newcomer for Smash 4. Overall, I believe in the Western fanbase Isaac is around the 5th/6th most wanted newcomer (basically on par with Little Mac for requests, but below the Big 4: Mewtwo, Ridley, Mega Man, K. Rool).
That Isaac's popularity has held up for so long despite the last really good game in the series being released a decade ago really shows the magic that two GBA games had, and the love and memories that people who played those games have to this day.
Its possible that Dark Dawn did bring in some new fans to the series, and while the the latest game was not a success on par with the GBA titles, it at least kept the series from falling into obscurity.
Right now, Camelot is making a new Mario Golf game for the 3DS (which is scheduled to be released later this year). Camelot already released a new Mario Tennis game last year.
Thw question is what will be their next project after this? I think they are too small now to make a Wii U title, and that can't go years without making any more new games.
One thing to keep in mind is that Virtual Console Game Boy Advance games will start to release later this year. The release of the two GBA Golden Sun games will serve to purposes to potentially help Isaac:
1. Bring in new fans to the series.
2. Show Camelot just how much interest there is in the series.
I am not sure if I remembering things correctly, but I think the decent sales of Sin & Punishment on the Virtual Console served as an impetus for Treasure to make Sin & Punishment 2.
So those are some bright spots for you Isaac supporters.
