Is the brawl style of gameplay really that bad?

[Big-Cat]

I think some of you guys take this game a little too seriously. It's a game. Relax a little. I converted from the'cube controller to the nunchuk and I didn't notice any lag.

The lag in wireless controllers isn't super significant, but fighting games often have players finding things that require very precise inputs at a specific moment. These are called "just frame" moves. In games like these or any other super fast paced multiplayer game, you want as minimal lag as possible.

Wireless controllers, however, are a big problem at tournaments due to interference from other consoles on at the same time in the near area.

 

[Hyruleslink]

The lag in wireless controllers isn't super significant, but fighting games often have players finding things that require very precise inputs at a specific moment. These are called "just frame" moves. In games like these or any other super fast paced multiplayer game, you want as minimal lag as possible.

Wireless controllers, however, are a big problem at tournaments due to interference from other consoles on at the same time in the near area.

Perhaps my Wii has less interference

 

[Big-Cat]

Doubt it. Lag is measured in a number of frames. Most people will not notice this unless they have either played their games extensively or simply have an intuitive ability to notice something is off.

For some, so much as a 1/60th second can throw players off. One reason you might not notice so much is because of Brawl's 10 frame buffer which would make the inputs active as soon as possible.

 

[Hyruleslink]

Well we have played thousands of hours of Brawl at my place, I would say that is pretty extensive. I was the first to switch to wireless and didn't notice any difference in timing when fighting my wired 'cube friends.They switched as well and there were no complaints. I think it is all in people's heads lol

 

[Big-Cat]

Have you played Brawl or any other game with very timing sensitive inputs?

 

[[Corn]]

Id like to say that I play Brawl with Classic as well....Currently using it for Injustice too lol.

 

[otter]

Id like to say that I play Brawl with Classic as well....Currently using it for Injustice too lol.

So do I. Despite worshiping Melee, I think the GC controller is trash.

 

[PHD]

Honestly, what's the point of playing (and investing time) in Project M when smash 4 is coming out.

Because some people enjoy it?

 

[SmashCentralOfficial]

Honestly, what's the point of playing (and investing time) in Project M when smash 4 is coming out. If you want to play Melee then just play Melee. Brawl was never meant to be melee part 2.

It is a successor, not a sequel.

Uhh, because I want to? It's fun, and I enjoy it along with many others. Do you always try to tell people what they should and should not do with their own free time?

Plus hacking the game goes back into the idea of us being maniacs (as Sakurai called us). We care so much about 1 game that we hack another to make it similar to the one we love.

So what? It's not harming anyone, is it? Project: M gives the community pretty much a whole new Smash game to play until the new one comes out.

I don't know why you have so much personal hatred towards the game but I'm sorry, it exists. You can't stop it from existing, you can't stop people from playing it, and you can't stop people from enjoying it.

 

[Hyruleslink]

Uhh because it is illegal to hack an intellectual property. It hurts Nintendo and the many people who work their back-sides off to bring us awesome Smash games. Don't be ignorant.

 

[SmashCentralOfficial]

Uhh because it is illegal to hack an intellectual property. It hurts Nintendo and the many people who work their back-sides off to bring us awesome Smash games. Don't be ignorant.

So that justifies looking down on those who play it? The creators aren't selling this hack or making a profit off of it. It's a group of die-hard Smash Bros. fans who created it in the first place.

Edit: I would really like to create a thread entitled "How to reply to a Thread" because a large majority of users on SWF don't seem to know how to engage in discussion without making assumptions, attacking the intelligence of others, and so on. Little things like "Don't be ignorant." quickly kill a perfectly good post by assuming the other person is "ignorant" about a subject, which is also insulting.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

Uhh because it is illegal to hack an intellectual property. It hurts Nintendo and the many people who work their back-sides off to bring us awesome Smash games. Don't be ignorant.

How the **** is it illegal it to do whatever I want to my own copy of Brawl? The only questionable thing about Project M is including new intellectual property like Dracula's Castle but nobody obvious gives a **** because it was on the front page of IGN. It also doesn't hurt Nintendo to make their games better, they've always been cool with it and they've pretty much copy-pasted Skyloft from Project M as well.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Uhh because it is illegal to hack an intellectual property. It hurts Nintendo and the many people who work their back-sides off to bring us awesome Smash games. Don't be ignorant.

Hacking isn't illegal in itself... Loading emulators, etc would be, but that's not what project m is doing. That's like saying the game genie/game shark/action replay is illegal.

Also not sure how this hack hurts nintendo...it still requires a wii and a copy of Brawl, so how is it different than just playing brawl? Care to explain that point?

 

[SmashCentralOfficial]

Last two posts are awesome. This is why I love when people assume things and call other people ignorant.

I think the only way Project: M would cross the line was if the developers were trying to make a profit off of it.

 

[Hyruleslink]

Project M falls under a derivative work under copyright law. Only the owners of the copyright can produce a derivative work. And this Project M certainly does not fall under the Fair Use exception. Copyright law is a fact and your opinions based on the law are irrelevant. You don't understand how copyright law works, clearly.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Doubt it. Lag is measured in a number of frames. Most people will not notice this unless they have either played their games extensively or simply have an intuitive ability to notice something is off.

For some, so much as a 1/60th second can throw players off. One reason you might not notice so much is because of Brawl's 10 frame buffer which would make the inputs active as soon as possible.

Even without being able to physically see frames as they happen, even 1 frame of lag is noticeable in the same way that a television programme that has its video slightly behind its audio will look off. When the menu of a game has noticeable lag to its cursor movement, there's an evident problem.

Let the moral guardians be. The likes of Hyruleslink have never produced a logical argument and likely never will.

At least smashchu isn't here for this, eh?

 

[SmashCentralOfficial]

Project M falls under a derivative work under copyright law. Only the owners of the copyright can produce a derivative work. And this Project M certainly does not fall under the Fair Use exception. Copyright law is a fact and your opinions based on the law are irrelevant. You don't understand how copyright law works, clearly.

While I do know a little about Fair Use and Copyright, I'll just go ahead and say you probably know much more than I do. However, if Project: M falls under a derivative and isn't Fair Use, then why haven't the developers been penalized, or even scrutinized for their work by a Nintendo Official or legal representative? Nintendo is very strict when it comes to people using their content. As you may know, they've recently changed their view on what's considered "Fair Use" of their content, making it impossible for YouTube Content Creators to place ads on their videos involving Nintendo gameplay and content.

Instead of insulting my knowledge on copyright law, why don't you address the real point?

People enjoy playing Project: M. Someone then says: "omg its not even a real smash game its an illegal hack why bother even playing it".

The real point being: so what?

You know some stuff about some other stuff, and that's pretty cool. However, Project: M isn't pushing the buttons of anyone who's opinion actually matters.

You can't stop it from existing, you can't stop people from playing it, and you can't stop people from enjoying it.

 

[Vkrm]

Project M falls under a derivative work under copyright law. Only the owners of the copyright can produce a derivative work. And this Project M certainly does not fall under the Fair Use exception. Copyright law is a fact and your opinions based on the law are irrelevant. You don't understand how copyright law works, clearly.

PM is still baller, even if dat **** be illegal, and pretty sure there gonna let it ride like what happened with counterstrike.

 

[Hyruleslink]

I cannot comment on Nintendo not taking action. But if I were to speculate, Nintendo would prefer to stay away from negative media attention such actions would attract. Just look at all the negative press they received by excercising their legal rights on those YouTube Let's Play videos.

 

[SmashCentralOfficial]

Just look at all the negative press they received by excercising their legal rights on those YouTube Let's Play videos.

Exactly what I just said. Project: M isn't pushing the buttons of anyone who's opinion actually matters.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I'm sure Nintendo is so hurt by people purchasing a copy of Brawl and giving Nintendo money to play Project M.

 

[Hyruleslink]

That doesn't mean Nintendo doesn't care. They could still shut it down like they did with that Zelda fan film years ago.

 

[Vkrm]

I bet everybody at Nintendo is eagerly awaiting 2.6. They didn't C&D it because they all secretly like pm.

 

[Phan7om]

TBH, Removing Tripping, Changing the Air Dodge System, Adding Melee Hitstun, and Removing Meta Knight (as he stands now), would make a great game in my opinion. So far, SSB4 has confirmed 1 and disconfirmed 1 of these things.

L-Canceling and Wavedashing dont really matter much to me as it does some other people. All I want is Combos!

 

[tazmohanna]

i said in my post that grab releases were ****ty, i was including chain grabs (should've elaborated), i really, REALLY hate chain grabs, unless they're as difficult and cool looking as ice climbers, then i only get tired of them eventually

the other things you said have hours of counter argument, but i'm only breezing through these forums


also i wanna mention that some of the things you said were straying from my point, i.e. when i said i don't like combos because i like reads, it doesn't mean i think brawl did reads correctly, it means brawl did reads and i like that over combos

 

[Soulstice Music]

Honestly, what's the point of playing (and investing time) in Project M when smash 4 is coming out. If you want to play Melee then just play Melee. Brawl was never meant to be melee part 2.

I gotta address this. Project M has received more attention by its developers than any smash game. Even when Smash 4 releases, it will never have the constant attention and care that Project M receives constantly. It is not a game just for casual players. That is the reason I feel confident that I will chose Project M after playing Smash 4 for a while. As someone who games consistently, I grow bored of games that can't transcend being casually played. If I play the game more than casually, it is bound to happen sooner rather than later. Project M assures that playing at a higher level is at its peak. I don't have to worry about stupid things ruining the game for me (like smash balls, tripping, items, unbalanced characters, etc.) . It's just about a fair scenario where I have to outplay my opponent without interruptions. Project M is less concerned about being a product, and more concerned about being a fun experience. As much as I appreciate the smash series, I find this to be true. When you have people working on a game just because they love it... The end result is going to stand unsurpassed.

Also, to address the legalities of Project M... Project M is entirely legal. Project M is not being sold for a profit, and is only an extension of an existing game. (In other words, by downloading Project M, you do not receive a free copy of Brawl.) For these reasons, the game is completely legal.

 

[Kink-Link5]

But how can I feel morally superior to others for not playing PM if it's legal?

 

[Hyruleslink]

I gotta address this. Project M has received more attention by its developers than any smash game. Even when Smash 4 releases, it will never have the constant attention and care that Project M receives constantly. It is not a game just for casual players. That is the reason I feel confident that I will chose Project M after playing Smash 4 for a while. As someone who games consistently, I grow bored of games that can't transcend being casually played. If I play the game more than casually, it is bound to happen sooner rather than later. Project M assures that playing at a higher level is at its peak. I don't have to worry about stupid things ruining the game for me (like smash balls, tripping, items, unbalanced characters, etc.) . It's just about a fair scenario where I have to outplay my opponent without interruptions. Project M is less concerned about being a product, and more concerned about being a fun experience. As much as I appreciate the smash series, I find this to be true. When you have people working on a game just because they love it... The end result is going to stand unsurpassed.

Also, to address the legalities of Project M... Project M is entirely legal. Project M is not being sold for a profit, and is only an extension of an existing game. (In other words, by downloading Project M, you do not receive a free copy of Brawl.) For these reasons, the game is completely legal.

Project M is a hack of an existing product. There is absolutely no legitimacy to your claim that Project M receives more attention by their "developers". Developers? Are you serious? They are hackers. Not to say they don't put a lot work into their hack, but c'mon bro.

You don't have to make a profit or attempt to make a profit to break copyright law. It is still being distributed. It still infringes on the rights of the owners of the original copyright. Project M falls under a derivative work under copyright law. Only the owners of the copyright can produce a derivative work. And this Project M certainly does not fall under the Fair Use exception. Copyright law is a fact and your opinions based on the law are irrelevant. You don't understand how copyright law works, so please don't pretend like you do. If you are going to cite law, back it up with actual knowledge of the law.

 

[Black Mantis]

Uhh because it is illegal to hack an intellectual property. It hurts Nintendo and the many people who work their back-sides off to bring us awesome Smash games. Don't be ignorant.

Uhh, because I want to? It's fun, and I enjoy it along with many others. Do you always try to tell people what they should and should not do with their own free time?




So what? It's not harming anyone, is it? Project: M gives the community pretty much a whole new Smash game to play until the new one comes out.

I don't know why you have so much personal hatred towards the game but I'm sorry, it exists. You can't stop it from existing, you can't stop people from playing it, and you can't stop people from enjoying it.

In any other fighting game community do you see mods? There are 3rd strike players who detest street fighter 4 with a passion (me being one of them). Do you see them modding street fighter 4 to make it more like 3rd strike?


Also, I find it funny that people are making assumptions about smash 4. This game has not even fully been completed yet. Sakurai has spoken and is working to make everyone happy. Project M can't give us Megaman. The scene (and general interest) for that game is going to take a major blow once smash 4 comes out.

 

[GaretHax]

What is it with people on the Sm4sh forums swinging their opinions around like they are somehow more important or factual than other people's... PM is not illegal in just about any real way, though a case could probably be made over Brawl's Eula, however there's so much legal gray area within those terms that it really shouldn't even be acknowledged, plus Nintendo isn't nearly as asinine as other companies when it comes to such things. Did you know Itunes has a contingency for a nuclear holocaust in your Eula? Anyway PM is great, IGN attention, that **** is legal, etc.

Also negative connotations being thrown on mods is kind of a pop-culture phenomenon stemming, in my opinion, from lack of knowledge in gaming history and culture, not to mention how it is being made to seem almost tabuu by dev's(heck it is even starting to be lumped together with piracy). Kids these days, I swear. Modding games is how most aspiring game designers, programmers, artists, and developers get their start in the business. Many games still openly encourage modding and actually take ideas from popular mods, see Tes V Skyrim and all elder scrolls games. Mods don't hurt a game or it's community, usually quite the opposite actually, in fact many are created by exceptionally competent and passionate hobbyists or retired/off the clock game dev's. Brawl being the most hacked and modded console game and fighter to date with probably 10 different projects adjusting it's gameplay and balance, not only speaks to the relative accessibility to modding it, but the general dissatisfaction of fans with the game. Also Dantarion the great has probably already finished the clone engine and I honestly wouldn't be surprised to find out that PM may have actually begun working on mega man before smash 4 was even announced. Just saying it wouldn't surprise me given how much they have already achieved and how in touch they are with the community.

On an unrelated note blindly throwing out silly broad statements and speaking for entire communities while attacking something, or someone with abusive and derogatory comments doesn't make you look correct, or intelligent, just uninformed and foolish. I also hate my phone's auto-correct.

 

[Hyruleslink]

What is it with people on the Sm4sh forums swinging their opinions around like they are somehow more important or factual than other people's... PM is not illegal in just about any real way, though a case could probably be made over Brawl's Eula, however there's so much legal gray area within those terms that it really shouldn't even be acknowledged, plus Nintendo isn't nearly as asinine as other companies when it comes to such things. Did you know Itunes has a contingency for a nuclear holocaust in your Eula? Anyway PM is great, IGN attention, that **** is legal, etc.

There is a difference between not knowing the law and pretending to, and pretending is what you are doing with that post.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Project M falls under a derivative work under copyright law. Only the owners of the copyright can produce a derivative work. And this Project M certainly does not fall under the Fair Use exception. Copyright law is a fact and your opinions based on the law are irrelevant. You don't understand how copyright law works, clearly.

In Lewis Galoob Toys, Inc. v. Nintendo of America, Inc.,[9] the appellate court held that it was a fair use for owners of copies of video games, such as Super Mario Bros., to use Galoob's product the Game Genie to customize the difficulty or other characteristics of the game by granting a character more strength, speed, or endurance. Nintendo strongly opposed Galoob's product, allegedly because it interfered with the maintenance of the "Nintendo Culture," which Nintendo claimed was important to its marketing program.[10] The court held, among other things, that the fair use defense shielded Galoob's conduct. The court said that "a party who distributes a copyrighted work cannot dictate how that work is to be enjoyed. Consumers may use ... a Game Genie to enhance a Nintendo Game cartridge’s audiovisual display in such a way as to make the experience more enjoyable."

It's cute when people are condescending, and then wrong.

 

[GaretHax]

It's cute when people are condescending, and then wrong.

That's the gist of what I said.

 

[Big-Cat]

In any other fighting game community do you see mods? There are 3rd strike players who detest street fighter 4 with a passion (me being one of them). Do you see them modding street fighter 4 to make it more like 3rd strike?

Actually, I do know of some mod that was in the works a while back, but I don't know if it ever finished. I think part of the reason why they didn't bother to do a 3S mod so soon was because only nine (Ryu, Ken, Chun-Li, Akuma, Ibuki, Makoto, Dudley, Yun, Yang) out of the twenty characters (if you include Gill) were playable in SF4. Elena and Hugo weren't brought to 3D until SFxTK and Makoto, Yun, and Yang aren't playable there. Compare this to Project M where all but five characters from Melee are in it. Technically, you could probably toss in Young Link and Dr. Mario as some of their aspects were lent to Toon Link and Mario in the mod.

 

[Hyruleslink]

It's cute when people are condescending, and then wrong.

Game Genie and Project M are quite different. Game Genie changed things like how many lives you had, invincibility,start at different stages. It didn't change code or add/remove content from the product. Game Genie altered the experience. Project M is altering the product. It's cute when people see what they want to see to fit the law the way they want to see it.

 

[GaretHax]

Game Genie and Project M are quite different. Game Genie changed things like how many lives you had, invincibility,start at different stages. It didn't change code or add/remove content from the product. Game Genie altered the experience. Project M is altering the product. It's cute when people see what they want to see to fit the law the way they want to see it.

"It's cute when people see what they want to see to fit the law the way they want to see it." You still haven't brought in a single quote, citation, or anything productive and your arguments are literally a copy-paste from being used against you. Stop while you are behind dude, insulting people without even bringing any evidence to the table won't get you very far.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Game Genie and Project M are quite different. Game Genie changed things like how many lives you had, invincibility,start at different stages. It didn't change code or add/remove content from the product. Game Genie altered the experience. Project M is altering the product. It's cute when people see what they want to see to fit the law the way they want to see it.

a party who distributes a copyrighted work cannot dictate how that work is to be enjoyed.

/discussion. list the differences if you want. this ruling protects not-for-profit hacks

 

[Hyruleslink]

http://www.legalzoom.com/intellectual-property-rights/copyrights/what-are-derivative-works-under
Read this. All of this. Learn what a derivative work is. The example of remixing music works quite nicely to illustrate how this is a copyright infringement.

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

Game Genie and Project M are quite different. Game Genie changed things like how many lives you had, invincibility,start at different stages. It didn't change code or add/remove content from the product. Game Genie altered the experience. Project M is altering the product. It's cute when people see what they want to see to fit the law the way they want to see it.

You mean like how you're doing right now? Also, you do realize that the Game Genie had to alter the game's code to allow those things, like all cheating products do, and that that is how P:M is able to run at all to begin with, right? Plus, P:M does add more to the game, but not by means of the actual disc itself since you can easily turn off the codes and play Brawl again anytime, or even just reset while playing and when ti goes back to the title screen, you're back in Brawl.

You know, I'm gonna just be real and say this. Harshly.

Nothing you're saying has any significance on the situation. Nintendo isn't just suddenly going to shut down P:M because you're making a fuss like a 10-year old that thinks he knows everything just because he watches the Magic School Bus every morning. You can blab on and on about this stuff all you want, but in the end, you're just wasting your time, boring everyone, and coming off as a total snob. It's not that you don't see the point of P:M or that it isn't illegal, it's that you don't want to understand it or accept that it isn't illegal. Acting like the P:M devs and players are such treasonous heathens that should be purged while Sakurai and Nintendo acknowledge them but don't feel threatened or infringed upon just makes you look like someone with a "holier than thou" attitude for not playing it. Hell, ever heard of the phrase "Don't knock it til you try it"? Besides, there's nothing wrong with modifying the games for our own personal pleasure anyways. People have done it for years for console and especially PC games. If I'm not satisfied with a game or have run out of actual content to enjoy and I see the potential and means to add on more, then I'm damn well sure I'm gonna do it post-haste.

In short, dude, just shut the **** up already. If you're so against P:M, then fine. Don't play it. But if you honestly think acting like you know how Nintendo thinks is going to keep people from playing it and that trying to convince everyone else to stay away from it just because you don't want to acknowledge it as something authentic and legal, you really need to just get out and re-evaluate your life.

 

[Hyruleslink]

You mean like how you're doing right now? Also, you do realize that the Game Genie had to alter the game's code to allow those things, like all cheating products do, and that that is how P:M is able to run at all to begin with, right? Plus, P:M does add more to the game, but not by means of the actual disc itself since you can easily turn off the codes and play Brawl again anytime, or even just reset while playing and when ti goes back to the title screen, you're back in Brawl.

You know, I'm gonna just be real and say this. Harshly.

Nothing you're saying has any significance on the situation. Nintendo isn't just suddenly going to shut down P:M because you're making a fuss like a 10-year old that thinks he knows everything just because he watches the Magic School Bus every morning. You can blab on and on about this stuff all you want, but in the end, you're just wasting your time, boring everyone, and coming off as a total snob. It's not that you don't see the point of P:M or that it isn't illegal, it's that you don't want to understand it or accept that it isn't illegal. Acting like the P:M devs and players are such treasonous heathens that should be purged while Sakurai and Nintendo acknowledge them but don't feel threatened or infringed upon just makes you look like someone with a "holier than thou" attitude for not playing it. Hell, ever heard of the phrase "Don't knock it til you try it"? Besides, there's nothing wrong with modifying the games for our own personal pleasure anyways. People have done it for years for console and especially PC games. If I'm not satisfied with a game or have run out of actual content to enjoy and I see the potential and means to add on more, then I'm damn well sure I'm gonna do it post-haste.

In short, dude, just shut the **** up already. If you're so against P:M, then fine. Don't play it. But if you honestly think acting like you know how Nintendo thinks is going to keep people from playing it and that trying to convince everyone else to stay away from it just because you don't want to acknowledge it as something authentic and legal, you really need to just get out and re-evaluate your life.

Lol. Right. Game Genie permanently altered the code of a game. It added stages to a game. I TOTALLY forgot it did all that. That is JUST like Game Genie. Thank you for clearing that up.

Like a ten year old, you didn't bother to read the link I posted. If you did, you would have educated yourself on what derivative works are. It doesn't take a genius to see the differences between Game Genie & Project M.