Is the brawl style of gameplay really that bad?

[Bobz]

If you love Brawl you likely only have two concerns for Smash 4: Roster, and Balance. Hopefully they won't cut too many characters, and balance it out a bit better here and there, but overall there's every indication that the Brawl players will love the new game. New characters, new shiny models and levels, the game might be a bit faster but if you are at all competent at any smash game most of that skill will transfer instantly.

The melee players on the other hand, have every right to be a bit skeptical. We can all hope that the new game is faster, and rewards contact a bit more, but I fully expect that while the brawl scene will die out as they all jump on the new game, the melee scene will continue on as it has. It will take a dip, but the hard cores will keep it going for years to come. The new game can not possibly satisfy the hard core melee people who just really want more melee.

Project M can and in many ways should represent the future of melee, but it hasn't quite caught on yet. It's shrugged off as being a mod, and there's a whole thread in the melee discussion boards full of legitimate complaints (aesthetics, not quite finished: both roster and upcoming balance patches) but quite a bit of people who just do not want to learn new match ups. These people will continue to play melee till all their friends stop, and the last of the game cube controllers die.

 

[Ulevo]

These people will continue to play melee till all their friends stop, and the last of the game cube controllers die.

The day will come when shady-characters in trench coats and dark glasses come to meet in alley ways to exchange in transactions in a post apocalyptic world involving food, water, other high demand valubales, and GC controllers.

 

[Soulstice Music]

Project M is a hack of an existing product. There is absolutely no legitimacy to your claim that Project M receives more attention by their "developers". Developers? Are you serious? They are hackers. Not to say they don't put a lot work into their hack, but c'mon bro.

You don't have to make a profit or attempt to make a profit to break copyright law. It is still being distributed. It still infringes on the rights of the owners of the original copyright. Project M falls under a derivative work under copyright law. Only the owners of the copyright can produce a derivative work. And this Project M certainly does not fall under the Fair Use exception. Copyright law is a fact and your opinions based on the law are irrelevant. You don't understand how copyright law works, so please don't pretend like you do. If you are going to cite law, back it up with actual knowledge of the law.

EDIT: Make sure to read my second post. In fact, you could probably skip this one if you don't want to read a ton.

de·vel·op·er

noun \-lə-pər\

​

Definition of DEVELOPER

: one that develops: as

a : a chemical used to develop exposed photographic materials

b : a person who develops real estate

c : a person or company that develops computer software

Definition of DEVELOP

transitive verb
[...]

4​

a : to cause to unfold gradually <developed his argument>
b : to expand by a process of growth <working to develop the company further>

Project M is definitely gradually unfolding and expanding over time. The people enacting this change can definitively by labeled as developers. So yes, its developers.

If you want to get technical, a hacker is also defined as "An enthusiastic and skillful computer programmer or user." But you seem to place a negative connotation. Sakurai is just as much of a hacker as an developer on the Project M team.

Sakurai has said that he balanced all of the previous smash games by himself. Not only is Project M balanced by its 100+ developers, it is also balanced and changed by tournament results as well as the community. So I do believe it receives and will continue to receive more developmental attention than any Nintendo based team could hope to provide. Why? Because they aren't nearly as open to tournament results or the community, have proven to test in a more closed fashion, and do not push out updates when they see that changes are necessary to a game.

Project M may fall under a derivative work, but the important thing to note is that it is a transformative derivative work:
"[If] the secondary use adds value to the original—if the quoted matter is used as raw material, transformed in the creation of new information, new aesthetics, new insights and understandings—this is the very type of activity that the fair use doctrine intends to protect for the enrichment of society."

New Information: New engine
New aesthetics: Many of the game aesthetics are recycled, but many were changed for the best interest of the game, to give the game value above the original (which is part of being a transformative work)
New insights and understandings: New combos are possible, new moves.. New techniques, new ways of playing characters.

"In computer- and Internet-related works, the transformative characteristic of the later work is that it provides the public with a benefit not previously available to it, which would otherwise remain unavailable."

For many of us the benefit of Project M over Brawl is that it provides us with a benefit that would otherwise remain unavailable. That is, a fun and replayable sequel to Super Smash Bros. Melee. (In my opinion, Super Smash Bros. Brawl is not a fun and replayable game. It is also not a sequel. Project M is a fan made sequel.)

[I'm posting this now to save my progress, I am not finished and will edit this post]

EDIT:
I just did a bunch of research, cited articles, and found various court cases in defense of the matter. Then I finished, hit post, and found out that I got logged out. So I lost all of it.
So here is a short version.

The thing to consider here is fair use. I took a look at a lot of court cases, and here is what I found:

Nintendo took the company who made the Game Genie to court. The Game Genie was declared legal because modifying a game for personal usage was found to be legal.

In the Sega Enterprises, Ltd. v. Accolade, Inc. case, it was declared that reverse engineering a game and/or a program is legal as long as there is no other method of finding the code.

I searched for a very long time for a court case that was raised on the topic of a modified game being distributed for free. I found nothing.

There was one instance where a mod was declared illegal, but the reason was due to the fact that the mod was being sold for profit. In other words, there would have to be substantial evidence in another department in order to find Project M to be guilty of breaking any law.

I also looked for Nintendo's stance on the matter. I was unable to find anything. Nintendo has made a stance on piracy, emulators, and mod chips, but not on directly modifying games. Also, it should be noted that Nintendo directly said that the installation of a mod chip requires directly altering the hardware. In other words, Project M has nothing to do with mod chips as far as their stance is concerned.

The fact of the matter here is that modding games lies in a gray area. The only thing that can be done here is to take every single game on a case by case basis. Modifying a game cannot be considered illegal until new laws are made to clarify. As it stands, there is no law that directly states that a modified game is illegal, there are only specific laws that game modders must be aware of. Project M is not guilty of breaking these laws.

There are two important factors to the distribution of Project M that make it legal as a transformative work:
1. Project M is not being sold. This would absolutely be in violation of laws.
2. Project M requires that both a Nintendo Wii and a lawful copy of SSBB are available in order to play

Therefore Project M cannot directly cause Nintendo damages, and is not illegally distributing a game that they do not have the rights to.

 

[Soulstice Music]

Here is a more refined version of my post. I think that this unquestionably asserts that Project M is legal.

The Fair Use Doctrine:

Section 107 contains a list of the various purposes for which the reproduction of a particular work may be considered fair, such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Section 107 also sets out four factors to be considered in determining whether or not a particular use is fair.

1. The purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes
2. The nature of the copyrighted work
3. The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole
4. The effect of the use upon the potential market for, or value of, the copyrighted work

It could potentially be argued that Project M is a criticism of Brawl. It asks for the comments of all of its players, and contributes to scholarship, research, and the advancement of games as an art form.

Furthermore, the purpose of Project M is innocent. It is nonprofit, and retains pretty much the same nature as the original product, though geared toward a more competitive scene. (This adds value, and therefore can add to its transformative nature. See below.) The amount of assets used is fairly substantial, but perhaps more importantly than anything, the game increases the value of the game that it modified.

Transformative uses that result in the creation of a transformative work are similar to derivative works in that they are based on the original.However, they are different in that they satisfy the underlying purpose of copyright law by building on the original and thereby “promoting the progress of science and the useful arts.”Simply put, transformative works create something new.Again, as noted in Campbell v. Acuff-Rose Music, Inc, “The central purpose of this investigation is to see...whether the new work merely [supersedes] the original creation, or instead adds something new, with a further purpose or different character, altering the first with new expression, meaning or message; it asks, in other words, whether and to what extent the new work is transformative.”Consequently, copyright owners do not control transformative uses that result in the creation of transformative works.Anyone can lawfully undertake a transformative use of anther’s copyright protected work even before the copyright expires.No permission is required from the copyright owner.

Project M contributes to videogames as an art form, and promotes balanced and emergent gameplay. It is absolutely something new.

Because of the way the law works, we can reasonably assume that Project M is legal as there is no law that directly states that the modification of video games is illegal. Instead, there is sufficient evidence that supports that Project M, as a mod, is legal until proven otherwise. (Whether justly or not.)

 

[FirestormNeos]

Brawl doesn't have a hardcore crowd.

I would weep for Nintendo if any Super Smash Bros Title had a crowd like Call of Duty's.

 

[Phaiyte]

Project M is a hack of an existing product. There is absolutely no legitimacy to your claim that Project M receives more attention by their "developers". Developers? Are you serious? They are hackers. Not to say they don't put a lot work into their hack, but c'mon bro.

You don't have to make a profit or attempt to make a profit to break copyright law. It is still being distributed. It still infringes on the rights of the owners of the original copyright. Project M falls under a derivative work under copyright law. Only the owners of the copyright can produce a derivative work. And this Project M certainly does not fall under the Fair Use exception. Copyright law is a fact and your opinions based on the law are irrelevant. You don't understand how copyright law works, so please don't pretend like you do. If you are going to cite law, back it up with actual knowledge of the law.

You are literally too stupid to insult lol. Breaks my heart. All you're doing in this thread is presenting a bunch of false nonsense and bashing a group of people for turning an EXTREMELY ****ty game into an amazing one, nearing actual perfection with every update. Do us all a favor and delete your account. Seriously.

 

[Banjodorf]

How dare people come in here and try to lay a smackdown on Project M's developers, who cater to the whims of the competitive scene at the expense of their own free time. They put so much work into that game, they shouldn't be negatively labeled for it ever.

On topic, I'd say yes, the Brawl style of gameplay was just...slow....and gave a totally different feel from Melee. Some might see that as good, and granted everything here will be opinion, but it took alot less time for me to step away from Brawl, even when I loved the roster, than to step away from Melee when I wasn't too keen on the roster. I think that says something about gameplay. I missed my combos, man, combos are fun!

 

[Phaiyte]

The reason why you don't see higher quality mods in other parts of the FGC is simply because there isn't enough information and interest. Most of the SF community would love it if someone like Danatarion (fun fact, he's like the head SF4 modder too!) got the programmers and top players together and made a ST/3S spiritual successor using the SF4 engine and 40ish character cast.

And Project M can indeed give us Megaman. ATM It'll require taking out another character, which nobody wants, but once the clone engine is done it's easily within the realm of possibility, along with adding in Roy and Mewtwo which Smash 4 might not even give us.

Of course every Smash scene is gonna take a blow when Smash 4 comes out, just like the Melee scene dwindled the year after Brawl came out. But who's the 3rd largest event at Evo now?

Despite what some guy in this thread thinks, I would play a 3rd Strike modded SF4 any day. 3rd Strike is awesome and SF4 is a bunch of nutsack. Just like Melee to Brawl.





Too soon?

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

The day will come when shady-characters in trench coats and dark glasses come to meet in alley ways to exchange in transactions in a post apocalyptic world involving food, water, other high demand valubales, and GC controllers.

"Psst, ya wanna buy a Controller?"

"Yeah, sure-hey wait a minute! That's a Mad Catz!"

"Come on, they work just as well...>_>"

 

[[Corn]]

"Psst, ya wanna buy a Controller?"

"Yeah, sure-hey wait a minute! That's a Mad Catz!"

"Come on, they work just as well...>_>"

Ill trade you a rocketfish

 

[FirestormNeos]

"Psst, ya wanna buy a Controller?"

"Yeah, sure-hey wait a minute! That's a Mad Catz!"

"Come on, they work just as well...>_>"

NO THEY DO NOT. I bought a GC controller from them. Worst Controller I have ever had the misfortune to be stuck with.

 

[[Corn]]

NO THEY DO NOT. I bought a GC controller from them. Worst Controller I have ever had the misfortune to be stuck with.

Wireless ones had roughly 10 frames of lag at least. I kid you not.

 

[FirestormNeos]

Wireless ones had roughly 10 frames of lag at least. I kid you not.

The lag was the least of my problems.

In Pokemon XD: Gale of Darkness, I would so much as tap the Analog stick, and my character would go north automatically almost instantly.

In Shadow the Hedgehog, the camera would rotate if I so much as looked at the C stick funny.

In Melee, I would tap up on the menu, and it'd go ******* ballistic.

I traded that controller in one day, sick of it's BS. I hope satin bought it from the store and is currently using it as toilet paper. ):-(

 

[Fidooblius]

I once bought a wireless Mad Catz Ps3 controller ( I had no other options). The wireless function didnt last a week.
Never again...

 

[Fenrir VII]

Had some Pelican ones for Melee early on... never again

 

[[Corn]]

The lag was the least of my problems.

In Pokemon XD: Gale of Darkness, I would so much as tap the Analog stick, and my character would go north automatically almost instantly.

In Shadow the Hedgehog, the camera would rotate if I so much as looked at the C stick funny.

In Melee, I would tap up on the menu, and it'd go ******* ballistic.

I traded that controller in one day, sick of it's BS. I hope satin bought it from the store and is currently using it as toilet paper. ):-(

I actually broke one's L button within 8 Star Sprites in Super Mario Sunshine.

What I will say is that they are quite easy to open up and get things for other projects for.

 

[Lemonwater]

I once bought a wireless Mad Catz Ps3 controller ( I had no other options). The wireless function didnt last a week.
Never again...

I made that same mistake but it was a GC. It was laggy, not reliable, and it was impossible to shield effectively since the buttons up top were to hard to press down. It was like trying to press through hardening clay or concrete. By the time the button sunk down to hell and came back up, the match would be already over.

 

[Lemonwater]

ThislagisasbadastheMadCatzcontroller

 

[FirestormNeos]

I made that same mistake but it was a GC. It was laggy, not reliable, and it was impossible to shield effectively since the buttons up top were to hard to press down. It was like trying to press through hardening clay or concrete. By the time the button sunk down to hell and came back up, the match would be already over.

Kinda like the Z button on my new controller.

But all I have to do to fix it is go to button mapping and assign one of the shield buttons to be a grab button instead.

Melee and 64, on the other hand...

 

[Hyruleslink]

You are literally too stupid to insult lol. Breaks my heart. All you're doing in this thread is presenting a bunch of false nonsense and bashing a group of people for turning an EXTREMELY ****ty game into an amazing one, nearing actual perfection with every update. Do us all a favor and delete your account. Seriously.

When you study law, then you can talk smack. 'Til then stick to the Doritos and date-less nights.

 

[GaretHax]

When you study law, then you can talk smack. 'Til then stick to the Doritos and date-less nights.

Still making a strong case for yourself I see. With your levels of logic, reasoning, and maturity you really do belong in law, heck you could be a congressman, you already seem to have the superiority complex down to a tee. Lol Politics, But seriously, relax, you are on a forum talking about an unreleased "party game", what exactly are you accomplishing by being so condecending? Why not just shoot the breeze and make some friends, take a break from the forums and come back with a better attitude man.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Yeah I thought we were all ignoring him? let's move on..

 

[FirestormNeos]

Still making a strong case for yourself I see. With your levels of logic, reasoning, and maturity you really do belong in law, heck you could be a congressman, you already seem to have the superiority complex down to a tee. Lol Politics, But seriously, relax, you are on a forum talking about an unreleased "party game", what exactly are you accomplishing by being so condecending? Why not just shoot the breeze and make some friends, take a break from the forums and come back with a better attitude man.

Because the First Amendment demands it.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

-Anyone notice we haven't seen a match with items on? The one that Sakurai himself played even had them off, and was played on Battlefield. Real men use items? Strange for someone deemed so "anti-competitive".

Really? The reason Items were off were as follows:

1. They wanted to highlight Mega Man as compared to a familiar character (Mario, obviously)

2. They haven't announced ANY items yet, unless you count the Wii Fit Trainer's Soccer Ball.

Items are part of what makes the game fun, not an integral aspect, mind you, but I find little more satisfying than clearing the stage with a soccer ball in 4 seconds flat.

 

[FirestormNeos]

Really? The reason Items were off were as follows:

1. They wanted to highlight Mega Man as compared to a familiar character (Mario, obviously)

2. They haven't announced ANY items yet, unless you count the Wii Fit Trainer's Soccer Ball.

Items are part of what makes the game fun, not an integral aspect, mind you, but I find little more satisfying than clearing the stage with a soccer ball in 4 seconds flat.

And the Smash Ball... Kinda.

They did show Samus' and WFT's final smashes.

 

[Big-Cat]

And the Smash Ball... Kinda.

They did show Samus' and WFT's final smashes.

Personally, I think the Smash Ball will be made more of an integral mechanic if not outright be changed in behavior. I'm of the opinion that there is a meter for final Smashes with the smash ball serving as an instant meter filler, but that's just me.

 

[FirestormNeos]

Personally, I think the Smash Ball will be made more of an integral mechanic if not outright be changed in behavior. I'm of the opinion that there is a meter for final Smashes with the smash ball serving as an instant meter filler, but that's just me.

Oh for the love of...

Part of why I like Brawl is that with the press of a button I can turn off OP supermoves.

This? This would suck. Not enough to be a dealbreaker, mind you, but still...

 

[Phaiyte]

When you study law, then you can talk smack. 'Til then stick to the Doritos and date-less nights.

Sounds like someone needs to do a way better job of all that studyin because so far it's getting you nowhere. Good luck on a piece of paper you don't deserve.

 

[FirestormNeos]

Sounds like someone needs to do a way better job of all that studyin because so far it's getting you nowhere. Good luck on a piece of paper you don't deserve.

Nobody deserves to be an uneducated idiot.