Is playing to win dead!?

[EternalCrusade]

wtf dude thats messed up. if you pick iceclimbers and they get chaingrabbed to 999 percent, then too bad for them for not figuring something out, or picking iceclimbers themselves and doing it. I havent seen any problems with this and I've been to a few tournaments where SOMEONE *coughDESUcough* chaingrabs everyone back and forth with DDD. I dont know what whacked out tournament youre going to or what kind of scrubs were there, but it shouldnt be banned.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Ok, I won first place, (so what no one wants to hear that), and I was using Ice Climbers. Yeah, I chain grabbed like mad. No they couldn't DI out of it. Yes, there were a lot of easy matches for me. The worst part -- the chain grabs got banned. Yes, already got banned. I've never had a problem like this before... and... I'm so frustrated. The tourney organizer, a guy named Mike whom I've know forever said that too many people complained that it was unbalanced for tournament play. Unbalanced because those pathetic sobs couldn't figure it out? Now I'm out a main because too many people whined. This never would've happened with melee. Never. If you won, it's cause the other guy couldn't hack it, plain and simple.

Actually, Pound 3 banned wobbling. I don't think there has been any tactic in Melee or Brawl worth banning that was not already a stall where the opponent was essentially made unreachable. All this said, who cares what one random local tournament host does, I went to Melee tournaments that ran FFA and had items on, some people just have no concept of how to run things or made good decisions =/

 

[Riolu]

You're out of main because you can't chain grab? Thats kind of sad. The Ice Climbers can do other things, you know. Maybe you play a few Brawls and find out for yourself. =D

But no, playing to win isn't dead, or at least it's not dead to me.

 

[Resident_Smash_Genius]

You're out of main because you can't chain grab? Thats kind of sad. The Ice Climbers can do other things, you know. Maybe you play a few Brawls and find out for yourself. =D

But no, playing to win isn't dead, or at least it's not dead to me.

I've been over this, but I'm willing to do it again.

I'm "out a main" not because I couldn't use IC still but rather because one of their best aspects (if not their best aspect) has been taken away. I'd rather play another character who's got everything still legal and no handicap because... that's what this is, a handicap.


On a another note, I'm not... complaining about the move being banned as much as I'm complaining about the way it was being banned and the reason why it was banned. As far as I know it was because too many new people showed up and couldn't hack it. The first post explains that.

EDIT: I'm glad that playing to win isn't dead to you. I respect that.

 

[The Drizzle]

If there is an infinite in ANY game, no matter how hard it is to pull off, it WILL get banned in certain places, and it SHOULD get banned.

When one is discovered, it just locks the metagame. The entire thing becomes A)People who use it, B) People who use the counter(s) to it, C) People who do neither and lose.

You can say "Well its part of the game", but how often are things like that MEANT to be in the game. Grabbing is one thing, as thats OBVIOUSLY intentional, grabbing a few times, ok. Chain grabbing in Melee where it stopped working at a certain percentage, fine.

But when theres something, that if done correctly, CAN'T be escaped and can be used from 0 to death every time on every character, its broken. I don't care if you play to win, because who DOESN'T at a tournaments, the fact is, certain things are broken, and they need to be taken care of so the entire game doesn't suck more than it already does.

 

[Sean²]

How am I a scrub? A scrub is someone who calls techniques cheap, doesn't play to win and sucks at smash because he's unwilling to improve. You're sure they're better at smash than me? Really? Can you honestly make that assumption? What a fool.

"Why are you the way that you are? Honestly, anytime we try to do something fun or exciting, you make it...not that way.

I hate...so much...about the things that you choose to be."

 

[SwastikaPyle]

Hey RSG, imagine you're a hockey player (if you aren't one). You play well and know your dribbles and passes and shooting techniques.

Imagine you go to a game one day and the other team has a two thousand pound goalie in their net. There is absolutely no way you can score a goal. He's so obese that he blocks the entire goal except for an occasional crack at it when he waddles around.

Obviously, you'd say, "What the hell guys?! It's impossible to beat that! Even if I'm a million times better then you, I can't score a goal!"

Now imagine he replied (with a wink), "Hey buddy, it's part of the game. We're playing to win. If you weren't a scrub you'd realized that."

Would you want the two thousand pound goalie to be banned or not?

 

[Dr Pepper]

I think what a lot of people are missing here is that a ban on chaingrabs such as the Ice Climbers' is virtually impossible to enforce.

Let's say a tournament host decides to ban the Climbers' alternating grab infinite combo. But someone using the Ice Climbers does it -- only he only grabs three times. Is that okay? That's not an infinite. It's certainly not gamebreaking. How about four times? Is that okay? Five times? Six? Where's the limit, and how are you going to enforce it? Are you going to stop the match and disqualify the player? What if he accidentally uses it too much without any intention of breaking the rules? Is that unfair?

In this respect it's much different from banning a stage because that's entirely enforceable -- just don't pick that level.

The only way this could truly be banned is by banning the Ice Climbers altogether, which would be unfortunate. It won't happen unless they start to win every tournament, however, which I don't think is very likely.

 

[mangodurban]

start the game over if the grabbed person wants to, or just give him a warning not to go past 5-6-7 (whatever the rule is) again or diqualifiy, or make him suicide, or blah blah blah, or..... i can go on and on.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I cant understand banning CG'ing, but I could sort of understand banning something like wobbling. Not because its an instant stock loss, but because it could be done infinitely so you could stall out a match doing it.

 

[Taymond]

start the game over if the grabbed person wants to, or just give him a warning not to go past 5-6-7 (whatever the rule is) again or diqualifiy, or make him suicide, or blah blah blah, or..... i can go on and on.

The problem is that setting a limit on a potential infinite doesn't solve the problem of its use as well as it might seem. So I can only grab 5 times in a row? Alright. I'll just grab 5 times in one string, but I'll still do that as many times as I can. The tactic can still be overused even with a length ban. It may not be as effective, but it will still be effective. It will still be four grabs after I land the first one, that the opponent cannot stop.

Having to get the initial grab again gives the opponent another chance to avoid being grabbed at all costs, but getting grabs really isn't too hard in Brawl.

 

[mangodurban]

have a referee!

 

[Dogysamich]

hey look, he posts in green, he must be important.

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

 

[Nicktendo]

the grab is infinite if done properly, i can do it every time and it should be banned. Its not skill, its cheap and only beatable if you "dont get grabbed".......dont get grabbed, are you kidding me, that sounds either impossible or..... completely boring. The technique is unbeatable and can be learned against all characters(if your talking about the same grab technique i think your talking about.) and will be banned. Ive spent countless hours perfecting the technique just to show its stupidity and un-beat-ability. It is unbeatable and simply decent video game player can perfect it, and if people like you keep doing it and winning tourny's, its going to get banned all around. I myself think it should be banned but as people will argue with me they will have to see for themselves. It is unbeatable once perfected and the only strat against it is to not get grabbed but come on, really, you have to be really good to not get grabbed at all, like really really really really really good. duh

I agree with this personally.

My freind who mained ICs does to and has quit playing them because he dosent want to win this way.

 

[PKSkyler]

Yeah well... why should I? I guess that's not the best attitude but, if I found something I'm really good at that allows me to win, I should get to use it since it's part of the game.

ok with your mentallity there should be tournaments with all items on high or tournaments super sudden death on any stage. those modes are a part of the game as well. Basically its someone eles tournament they can have whatever rules they want, you can still play your friends/host your own tourney anyway you want xD

 

[Pink Reaper]

ok with your mentallity there should be tournaments with all items on high or tournaments super sudden death on any stage. those modes are a part of the game as well. Basically its someone eles tournament they can have whatever rules they want, you can still play your friends/host your own tourney anyway you want xD

This isn't the same as banning some random item or stage, its part of the character. Its one thing to say "Items make the game unbalanced" its another to say "That IC's Strategy is too good, your not allowed to use it"

 

[Tom]

Hey RSG, imagine you're a hockey player (if you aren't one). You play well and know your dribbles and passes and shooting techniques.

Imagine you go to a game one day and the other team has a two thousand pound goalie in their net. There is absolutely no way you can score a goal. He's so obese that he blocks the entire goal except for an occasional crack at it when he waddles around.

Obviously, you'd say, "What the hell guys?! It's impossible to beat that! Even if I'm a million times better then you, I can't score a goal!"

Now imagine he replied (with a wink), "Hey buddy, it's part of the game. We're playing to win. If you weren't a scrub you'd realized that."

Would you want the two thousand pound goalie to be banned or not?

Gentlemen, you can quit debating whether or not the Ice Climbers' chainthrows should be banned from Brawl tournament play. We have a much more pressing matter to address.

Does the NHL not allow sumo goalies?

 

[Bud]

why hasn't it been tried.... it's genius. I shall form a hockey team.

 

[Firesoul1]

no, playing to win will never die...
for as long as there are "tough kids on the block"
one will try to out do the other for greatness...
this is the key driving force in tournaments...
if you don't care about tournament, then play wi-fi...

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I can't believe the number of people defending the tournament host here when he's obviously in the wrong...

For one, the original post makes it sound like the rules were changed in the middle of the tournament (he was doing infinites and then it was banned). It is never, ever okay to change the rules in the middle of an event. The OP won, but what if he lost his entry fee because he had the rules changed on him? That would have been completely stupid and unfair. Even if he had demanded a refund and walked out after the rule change, it still would have been unfair as he would have lost his previously inevitable winnings.

He's also made it clear that he doesn't want to play in those tournaments anymore so the point that the tournament organizer is free to do whatever he wants is kinda moot. He is doing whatever he wants, and that's enforcing a dumb rule that is driving the OP away.

About banning the technique, it's just a silly fuzzy rule. Are the Ice Climbers just plain not allowed to grab anymore? What if one grabs you into the other catching you just once? Just twice? Which exact combos from grabs are they allowed to do at all? What if you could have escaped their regrab but fail? Are they still not allowed to do it? This is EXACTLY the kind of scrub rule sirlin was discussing. It's horribly defined, and the obvious best tactic for an Ice Climbers player is to play as close to the arbitrary letter of the law as he can without being punished. The rule isn't even clearly warranted since the Ice Climbers have in no way shown themselves to be far and away the best character in the game because of this. Sure a tournament host is free to make any dumb rules he wants, but saying this is the same as banning 75m is silly. It's more like banning every stage but 75m and then making a rule "no cheap stuff". I don't really see how banning wobbling in melee made sense either given that the Ice Climbers were character #1 on exactly zero tier lists; it's just a random, unfair nerf to a character who was already not the best while the best goes uninhibited.

About stalling in all cases as I'm sure it's going to be the inevitable counterpoint, it is regrettable that rules on this must be made as they are going to be inevitably fuzzy, but both melee and brawl are literally unplayable without some sort of limits here. Explicit, rigidly defined lists of stalling tactics to be banned with are obviously needed and shockingly not forthcoming though in all cases the only tactics that should be banned are those which do nothing but stall the match (no damage being dealt or forced kills being avoided). I really must stress the need for rigid definition of bans even here. It's easy to say Pit's stall by flying under stages needs banned, but what if Pit is at 200% on his last stock (and somehow ahead despite that) with 10 seconds remaining and flies once under the stage to avoid damage? Is that playing smart or unfair stalling? If we're going to be playing to win, we need rules that we can try our hardest to abuse and still allow us to develop the game. We also must remember sirlin's most important point about bans. Bans are extreme measures that should only be taken when something is so horrible that it literally ruins the game. Stalling is definitely in that group. Infinites? Not a chance.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Amazing Ampharos? From Shoddybattle? yhelothar

 

[Mokai]

Does the NHL not allow sumo goalies?

Unfortunately not. Ice is prone to cratering.

 

[DSM01]

It's true though, if your whole strategy was based around one move, that's not really showing us anything. Maybe try different characters or different strats with ICs, and that'll make the game more enjoyable for you and everyone else.

 

[Taymond]

@Amazing Ampharos, where are you getting this? He won first place, and it's a place where tournaments regularly happen. In all likelihood, the organizer banned it after the tournament for future tournaments. There's nothing in the OP to indicate a rule change mid-tourney. That would be out of line, I agree. But I don't think that happened. I think you're grabbing information that isn't there. He didn't lose winnings, he won. He took first in the tourney.

Also, you don't seem to realize the potential for infinites to BE stalling tactics. You say stalling tactics, of course, should be banned, but that infinites, which can easily be used as stalling tactics, obviously should not. The two overlap.

 

[PityLord]

How does one know if a bug destroys the game or even if a legitimate tactic destroys it? The rule of thumb is to assume it doesn’t and keep playing, because 99% of the time, as good as the tactic may be, there will either be a way to counter it or other even better tactics. Prematurely banning something is the scrub’s way. It prevents the scrub from ever discovering the counter to the Valle CC or the diamond trick. It also creates artificial rules that alter the game, when it’s entirely possible that the game was just fine the way it was. It also usually leads to an avalanche of bans in order to be consistent with the first. When players think they have found a game-breaking tactic, I advise them to go win some tournaments with it. If they can prove that the game really is reduced to just that tactic, then perhaps a ban is warranted. It’s extremely rare that a player is ever able to prove this though. In fact, I don’t even have any examples of it.

From the enlightening Sirlins article of course.

Basicly the IC's infinite shouldnt be banned unless the players will prove that there is really no way to counter and win every single tournament with it.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The first post seemed to imply that it was a rule change midway, but it could not have been true; I suppose it could be the other way. It's kinda ambiguous, and I guess I read an implication into it. About the loss of winnings thing, that was just speculation about what could have been the consequence of such a rule change though it did not occur.

I know infinites can be stalling tactics, hence I indicated "forced kills being avoided" to cover that scenario. Forcing an infinite to end in a death via rules is quite different from banning the infinite. I seem to recall there being an odd quirk in one of those "team" fighting games where you could infinitely combo a corpse, preventing the other team members from switching in. Infinite combos weren't banned; you just had to terminate them after a death. Smash isn't quite the same, but the principle there is the same and it really doesn't compromise allowing the infinite at all. Given that Nana can fsmash a grabbed opponent for a sure thing kill at around 300%, I don't see any issue.

 

[EternalCrusade]

It's true though, if your whole strategy was based around one move, that's not really showing us anything. Maybe try different characters or different strats with ICs, and that'll make the game more enjoyable for you and everyone else.

It's not his job to make the tournament more enjoyable for everyone, all he needs to worry about is winning

 

[Resident_Smash_Genius]

"Why are you the way that you are? Honestly, anytime we try to do something fun or exciting, you make it...not that way.

I hate...so much...about the things that you choose to be."

You're making an assumption that I actually care what you think. You're wrong. At a tournament, I don't care about fun as much as I care about winning. Sorry.

Hey RSG, imagine you're a hockey player (if you aren't one). You play well and know your dribbles and passes and shooting techniques.

Imagine you go to a game one day and the other team has a two thousand pound goalie in their net. There is absolutely no way you can score a goal. He's so obese that he blocks the entire goal except for an occasional crack at it when he waddles around.

Obviously, you'd say, "What the hell guys?! It's impossible to beat that! Even if I'm a million times better then you, I can't score a goal!"

Now imagine he replied (with a wink), "Hey buddy, it's part of the game. We're playing to win. If you weren't a scrub you'd realized that."

Would you want the two thousand pound goalie to be banned or not?

Hmmm. I play roller hockey, and... hmmm.... yeah pretty sure the goalie would fall through the ice. Also, I doubt he could move.... easily.

Which is exactly the point right? I mean, you find a way around it. You've got to out manuver that fatty or break the ice under his feet!

Take out the IC's on the approach, use techniques like pickachu's thunder that have latency and will go off even if you're grabbed. Use Zelda's low-risk attacks! I don't know, it's not unbeatable.

Also, I think many of the people who are for the banning are forgeting about human error. I've never seen anyone be perfect.

And to address a few other things, the rule change was made official after the tournament was over, not midway. I never would have let that fly.

 

[Ban3]

no u are all wrong. now u fight for ur friends XD im sure someone has already said this though but ok seriously there are like a billion other threads disscussing this topic so u can just look there

 

[Ja]

That sucks, brawl definitely has the worst community of any game I've known. Let those turds put up with themselves and play an actualy competitive fighter (not necessarily melee, but it's not brawl...).

 

[DragonRider-ofSmashBros]

You're making an assumption that I actually care what you think. You're wrong. At a tournament, I don't care about fun as much as I care about winning. Sorry.

So you don't care what people think, but your asking on a public forum? Anyways like many others have said, just find a new main and find something else that you can spam.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

You're making an assumption that I actually care what you think. You're wrong. At a tournament, I don't care about fun as much as I care about winning. Sorry.



Hmmm. I play roller hockey, and... hmmm.... yeah pretty sure the goalie would fall through the ice. Also, I doubt he could move.... easily.

Which is exactly the point right? I mean, you find a way around it. You've got to out manuver that fatty or break the ice under his feet!

I think you should read the post again, and try not to find some cute way to get out of it by saying, "He would fall through the ice."

Remember you have almost a 0% chance of winning. You can almost never get an open shot on the goal, except for a possible 3 inch gap every once in awhile.

 

[Resident_Smash_Genius]

I think you should read the post again, and try not to find some cute way to get out of it by saying, "He would fall through the ice."

Remember you have almost a 0% chance of winning. You can almost never get an open shot on the goal, except for a possible 3 inch gap every once in awhile.

I'd find the goalie's weakness? IDK a plate if hot wings or something? If it's without weakness, I guess... we lose.

If a pro goalie were good enough to block every shot, they'd still let him be in. Nough' said.

So you don't care what people think, but your asking on a public forum? Anyways like many others have said, just find a new main and find something else that you can spam.

Please learn to read. I said I don't care what he thinks. I mostly said it because his comment had nothing to do with anything, except whining about something that he knows nothing about - me.

I'm just going to ignore the part about spam.

 

[Bud]

If a pro goalie were good enough to block every shot, they'd still let him be in. Nough' said.

I don't think that applies to your argument, for a normal sized goalie to block every professional shot, then he would be an extremely talented and dedicated player who has clearly mastered everything there is to know about being a goalie. Doing and infinite chain grab is somewhat easy with a bit of practice and is only one move and is still unbeatable. If it continues to be done it and won with it will be banned. If it isn't banned then we have a 5,000 pound goalie who is bigger than the goal and the game becomes pointless. However, the move will be okay to do to a limit probably so learning it wasn't a waste and your not out of a main. If they ban the character I will be pretty mad because the characters fine and most of IC chain grabs are fine, but one is infinite and kills with one grab. Sorry to have to put you down but its just not a legitimate victory move.

 

[SmashBro99]

Dude, you could try playing Ice Climbers without chain grabbing. Seriously, if your entire strategy is based on a technique that, once you have them in it they can't escape, then you're a scrub, plain and simple.

Haha, all I had to do was read the first reply.

(Competitive) Brawl sucks because your newbie friends don't know how to play it? No.

 

[Resident_Smash_Genius]

Haha, all I had to do was read the first reply.

(Competitive) Brawl sucks because your newbie friends don't know how to play it? No.

Wait... what?

EDIT: Yes my meta sucks. Therefore, competitive brawl sucks. Too many new people have crowded it with it's easy to learn mechanics. You should read the rest of the thread. There are plenty of flammers for you to read.

 

[Ark098]

i havent played chain grabbing ICs before, is the chain grab escapable?

from the vids iv seen of it, it LOOKS inescapable and if thats the case then i recon ban it. the only counter is.. dont get grabbed. whereas with pit you just have to DI or not get caught against a wall.

if there is a way of escaping, despite how hard it is or wether or not u have to wait til ur at 90% or whatever, then dont ban the chain grab cos competitive players should just learn to get out and gt over these things..

 

[uremog]

lol, sux man. teach them CVS2 then watch them cry when they play ppl who can RC.

idk, if i were you, i'd learn how to be as gay a spammer as possible with like, TL or snake or ROB or something. then show them what's fun.

 

[Igneous42]

You're making an assumption that I actually care what you think. You're wrong. At a tournament, I don't care about fun as much as I care about winning. Sorry.



Hmmm. I play roller hockey, and... hmmm.... yeah pretty sure the goalie would fall through the ice. Also, I doubt he could move.... easily.

Which is exactly the point right? I mean, you find a way around it. You've got to out manuver that fatty or break the ice under his feet!

Take out the IC's on the approach, use techniques like pickachu's thunder that have latency and will go off even if you're grabbed. Use Zelda's low-risk attacks! I don't know, it's not unbeatable.

Also, I think many of the people who are for the banning are forgeting about human error. I've never seen anyone be perfect.

And to address a few other things, the rule change was made official after the tournament was over, not midway. I never would have let that fly.

...Just how deep do you think the ice is on most hockey rinks? Unless you happen to be playing on a lake then it wouldn't be deep enough for him to actually break through the ice.

 

[SummerObsession]

Playing to win is not dead. Apparently all the people whom you beat at the local tournament are playing to win too, and the best way they can win is by not getting caught in an IC infinite CG. The easiest way for them not to not get caught in a Infinite CG is to just ban it hahaha. You got royally ^&*%ed!