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Is It Really Religion?

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Aesir

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Religion has often taken the heat for problems in the world, is it right to blame them for it though? While it's true you can use Religion to justify anything, but is it really the fault of religion? Or is it Us?

I'm willing to bet it's us, Religious or not everyone has the capacity for evil. By doing away with Religion all you've done is create the illusion of solving the problem. Religion isn't the root of evil in the world, it's a fertilizer, much like nationalism it can be used to justify anything and in the past it has.

The problem isn't religion or nationalism though, they're ammunition for the problem. The problem is fundamentalism, no group or belief is free from it either. Theistic fundamentals are just as out there as atheist fundamentals.


As I'm writing this, I still question THE question of the topic. Can you please construct a question which sums up the urge you felt to make the topic? What do you really wanna know?
Which is to blame, religion or human nature?

Does that clarify it?
 

RDK

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Fanatacism is the real problem.

Which is why it's so hard to argue with people who are 100% sure (and usualy wrong) that they're right, and nobody or no thing is allowed to question them. If everyone kept even a tiny bit of an open mind, I imagine most of our problems would be all but solved.
 

Zero Beat

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I'm willing to bet it's us, Religious or not everyone has the capacity for evil. By doing away with Religion all you've done is create the illusion of solving the problem. Religion isn't the root of evil in the world, it's a fertilizer, much like nationalism it can be used to justify anything and in the past it has.
The purpose of "religions" was to EASE the evil assumed by its creators. A man made idea to try to keep people in check, create some sort of order, to give life meaning. It wasand still is a necessity.

Like I said to CK on aim, sit a religious group through a full fledged existentialist lecture and watch their self esteems drop leaps and bounds.

These man made ideas come from primitive thinking in terms of scaling us(Earth, humans, animals, insects) vs the cosmos. These men didn't know much about planet Earth, let along knowing about what went on outside of it. Which explains the common missconception between the whole "science vs religion" issue. It's not that science TRIES to disprove religion, it's just that these exaggerated claims by religion are disproved as a result of the following:

Science is not biased, and its only goal is to seek truth, no matter the topic it is trying to advance in and study. As a result, or "along the way," the religious claims are disproved. HOLY**** I digress.

So, conclusion:

-Religion is an idea made by men to manipulate(In either a positive or negative way)
-Men have always had the abilitity to do as pleased within the boundaries of reality.(Includes both good and evil)

As I'm writing this, I still question THE question of the topic. Can you please construct a question which sums up the urge you felt to make the topic? What do you really wanna know?
 

Aesir

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Well today Fundamentalism and Fanaticism kind of go hand in hand. Just imagine if the Christian Right was more open minded how much better it would be for the bulk of society.

People like Sarah Palin and Bobby Jindal would be a funny punch line that everyone would laugh at.
 

Firus

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You are correct. The problem is not directly religion, it's just an easy scapegoat because...well, it's not even really a scapegoat. A lot of people do insane/stupid things as a result of their religion, but given any cause they feel strongly enough about, those same people would probably do the same thing. The people are really at fault, but religion isn't necessarily innocent...but I'm kind of saying the same thing over and over again. Ultimately, it's not fair to say religion is at fault. On the other hand, it's hard to say it's COMPLETELY innocent since it is something that tends to start a lot of wars. It's just a touchy topic that cannot be proven which is why people fight wars over it. It's like the Melee vs. Brawl debates; there is no final answer, so the battle rages on and on ad nauseam.

But that aside, I completely agree with RDK. The elitists are the problem, the fanatics are the problem. If people could keep an open mind and learn to live their own lives for one, this wouldn't be an issue. People get really into religion so they go to extremes to enforce it or get others to agree. They just can't accept that someone doesn't agree.

This is part of the reason I'm not big on religion; they're so hypocritical. Christianity is supposed to be all about love, and a caring god, but you've got people in the same sect of Christianity bickering with each other, disrespecting each other because they have slightly different beliefs. This has happened within my extended family. Also, there are people who preach the message that if you're not saved, you're going to hell. So wait, this is a loving god, but if you don't have complete faith in his existence you're going to hell? That's just ridiculous. Something's not right there.

If people could learn to let other beliefs exist without hating them for it, maybe the problem would be solved.
 

Aesir

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The purpose of "religions" was to EASE the evil assumed by its creators. A man made idea to try to keep people in check, create some sort of order, to give life meaning. It wasand still is a necessity.

Like I said to CK on aim, sit a religious group through a full fledged existentialist lecture and watch their self esteems drop leaps and bounds.

These man made ideas come from primitive thinking in terms of scaling us(Earth, humans, animals, insects) vs the cosmos. These men didn't know much about planet Earth, let along knowing about what went on outside of it. Which explains the common missconception between the whole "science vs religion" issue. It's not that science TRIES to disprove religion, it's just that these exaggerated claims by religion are disproved as a result of the following:

Science is not biased, and its only goal is to seek truth, no matter the topic it is trying to advance in and study. As a result, or "along the way," the religious claims are disproved. HOLY**** I digress.

So, conclusion:

-Religion is an idea made by men to manipulate(In either a positive or negative way)
-Men have always had the abilitity to do as pleased within the boundaries of reality.(Includes both good and evil)

As I'm writing this, I still question THE question of the topic. Can you please construct a question which sums up the urge you felt to make the topic? What do you really wanna know?
In the opening post I added a question to make it easier to understand.

Ultimately what I'm asking in this thread is this. The problems of the world. War, famine, ect.. are they the result of religion? or is it human nature? the capacity we all have for evil.
 

Overload

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Blood has been shed because of the influence people let religion on them, and their intolerance for other religious beliefs. I believe religion was first created as an answer to how everything came to be, then later on used for the purpose of manipulation, or perhaps even money. I would agree with your statement that religion is a fertilizer. It could also be considered an excuse for someone to do wrong, or a scapegoat to blame everything on.
 

Aesir

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Yes but is that claim justified? Can we just place the blame on religion? I don't think so. Whatever faults there are, it's because of people. As for people who pins the blame on religion they're just showing their ignorance, and bigotry of beliefs that don't coincide with their own.
 

Zero Beat

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Religion CERTAINLY has some blame, but ultimately, we are the ones to "blame" if you want to use that word.

Like I mentioned earlier, WE invented religion and the idea of a creator, for the reasons stated in my first post. I have a friend who is minoring in theology, and she further clarified this for me. She concluded that whether you chose the path of science or religion studies, you arrive at the same conclusion:

-Man made idea
-It was a necessity to give life meaning
-No God


She went from believer to agnostic through the study of theology.
 

urdailywater

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In the opening post I added a question to make it easier to understand.

Ultimately what I'm asking in this thread is this. The problems of the world. War, famine, ect.. are they the result of religion? or is it human nature? the capacity we all have for evil.
There were some wars that WERE caused by religion.

There were wars to claim Jerusalem because it was a "holy" place.
There were lots of wars to claim of Jerusalem. That can't necessarily be blamed on religion itself though.

Religion is an idea that can be twisted up and be totally misunderstood to help humans believe that what they are doing is right.

Not all problems of the world can be blamed on it, but some can, of course.

I guess it's a yes/no scenario. If we were without religion though, think about where we would be? There were so many evil things in the world that us humans fought against because our religion told us to. And then, there were evil things religion caused us to fight for.

It's just an idea, that's it. Just like if a man was going to murder his wife because he thought she was cheating on him - and him doing this without proof.
 

marthanoob

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We'd probably find some other excuse to kill each other.
So many of the evils in this world may be the fault of religion, but the same people taking advantage of religion now will probably find some way or another to manipulate people if religion did not exist.
 

Reaver197

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Well, since religion was made by man, it certainly seems like an issue with human nature, lol.

As for the original "purpose" of religion, I do not know. Maybe it was to explain phenomena that early man saw and didn't know how to fully comprehend, maybe it wasn't. All I know are some of the possible evolutionary and mental traits that went into the formulation of humans that enables us to first start believing in gods and religions.

However, the biggest issue of religion is what is represents, especially now in modern society. It might be that it's a manifestation of the basic conflict within the human mind of the conflict between what we want to be true, and what is actually observably true. As we grow up and our minds mature, one of the phases children generally do through is learning the difference between what they want to be true and what is actually the case. Children inherently, as per their struggle to assert their ability to survive in the world, try to get what they want, and try to believe in ideas that they like to or want to believe in. It might have something to do with the fact that the limbic system and amygdala within our brains, the systems that cause us to have emotional reactions, form and develop fully before the neocortex does, the part of our brain that performs logical thinking and, most importantly, controls and inhibits the limbic system. If the amygdala detects things about the world that makes it feel threatened in some way, it will make us feel an emotion to react to the situation and try to improve it. Part of the process to making us feel better about our surroundings or threatening situations may involve the building up of beliefs that enables us to feel less threatened and less emotionally unstable. This may lead us to building up belief systems that we want to be true because they make us feel "good" or is how we learned to keep ourselves stable in steering our way through life thus far.

Anyway, the issue with such a process is that it lets us believe things that may or may not actually be true or in line with how reality operates. And beliefs are powerful things, as they dictate our actions and how we react to events and to other people. If the beliefs are inadequately in tune or grounded within reality, people will act and respond inappropriately in situations that necessitates action from us. Such actions can range from silly and amusing, to downright dangerous and fatal to either the person themselves, other people, or both. Thus, it is important that we constantly make sure that we keep our beliefs in tune with reality, by constantly updating it and checking against evidence and proof.

However, religion has been set up and built up in such a way in which people do not have to do submit their beliefs to such self-checking processes. In fact, the whole premise of it is built up around the fact that you don't need, or even want alarmingly, evidence for what you believe, and under the name of a religion, grants legitimacy to such belief system (and, in my opinion, intellectual immaturity). Society tries to impose on us, mostly by religious institutions, that it's, at best, impolite to challenge people's religious beliefs. Thus, being free of any fact-checking, reality-grounding obligations, people can believe whatever they want to believe. Which is a problem, because what some people may want to believe can be harmful to others. It also chokes intellectual and scientific growth and inquiry, because once we start putting down arbitrary divisions as to what ideas we can and cannot critique, it's inevitable that religion will try to restrain and censor intellectual pursuits that might void or run aground with the inadequacy of their beliefs.

I don't know if religion necessarily causes all, (or most, or some) of the problems in the world, but it certainly doesn't help, often exacerbating them to levels of intensity that would've otherwise not been reached.
 

Darxmarth23

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In the current world you bet its us.

Of the major things happening right now the only thing that is affecting the whole world, and involves religion in some way is the terrorist attacks. To me these ppl use reigion as a scapegoat to do as they please.

and the sad thing is...is that ppl have blamed religion for it all. they have litsened to the evil of ppl and taken it as a principle of the other religion.

Ppl misinterpret misunderstand and manipulate religion. Doing that, it would be the evil of man. Not religion.

In the current world i get called "terrorist" because im a muslim. 99% of all muslims are peace-loving, calm, and content ppl. But ohh...that 1% screwed it up for all of us. That 1% set a stereotype for the other 99% of us. Man has accepted this stereotype. It was mans doing.

Its mans evil.
 

Mewter

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The problem isn't religion. It's only the people who take their beliefs (not necessarily religion) too far. Blaming religion is just taking the easy way out, and making ignorant generalizations.
 

Darxmarth23

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Men did the deeds, but used Religion as the excuse. =/

:093:

I couldn't have said it better myself. Honestly, in current issues, the terrorists blame religion, but really the root of this act is politics. If it really was religion then there would have been a lot more wars and all of this stuff would have happened sooner. It truly is the evil of man.
 

Aesir

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There were some wars that WERE caused by religion.

There were wars to claim Jerusalem because it was a "holy" place.
There were lots of wars to claim of Jerusalem. That can't necessarily be blamed on religion itself though.
You need to learn history I think, sorry if that comes off as offensive but it's true. (history is a touchy subject with me)

The Crusades for instance may have started as a holy war, but really it was just a war for land. There was actually very little religious motivation behind the crusades after the first one.

The final Crusade wasn't even waged against Islam, it didn't even head to the middle east. The last crusade was to sac Constantinople.

Religion is an idea that can be twisted up and be totally misunderstood to help humans believe that what they are doing is right.

Not all problems of the world can be blamed on it, but some can, of course.
Explain this please, religion is an institution it isn't alive, it doesn't breath, it doesn't think. It's strictly a tool, any fault of religion comes from it's members.

I guess it's a yes/no scenario. If we were without religion though, think about where we would be? There were so many evil things in the world that us humans fought against because our religion told us to. And then, there were evil things religion caused us to fight for.
We would probably be more animalistic and less social then we are today.
 

~ Gheb ~

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Actually, Religion has - as strange as it sounds - nothing to do with it. At this point people seem to have forgotten the difference between "Religion" and "The Church". The church may be a christian institution but not all its actions are "typically christian".
A good example would be things like burning witches in the middle age. People look back now and say it's christian fallacy. But it isn't. It's the fault of the church, who (maybe intentionally) misinterpreted christian sources and misused them for its own purposes. The religion itself has little to do with it.

So to answer your question: No, it's the people's fault.
 

Zero Beat

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So to answer your question: No, it's the people's fault.
Of course it's our fault, WE CREATED the word "religion," we gave it life(metaphorically speaking <_<) by defining it. Why is that so hard to grasp?

Youtube George Carlin's "Sanctaty of life," and don't let te fact that he's a comedian or that he's doing a stand up deminish the substance of his work.

Here is a great excerpt and I wish some of you would read it and give some opinions after analyzing it.

"The Bible is filled with superstitious beliefs that modern people rightly reject. It describes a world where a snake and a donkey communicated with human beings in a human language, where people could reach upward of 900 years old, where a woman instantaneously transformed into a pillar of salt, where a pillar of fire could lead people by night, and where the sun stopped moving across the sky or could even back up. In this imaginary world an ax head could float on water, a star could point down to a specific home, people could instantly speak in unlearned foreign languages, and one's shadow or handkerchief could heal people. It is a world where a flood can cover the whole earth, and a man can walk on water, calm a stormy sea, change water into wine, or be swallowed by a "great fish" and live to tell about it. This world is populated by demons that can wreak havoc on Earth and make people very sick. It is a world of idol worship, where human and animal sacrifices please God. Visions, inspired dreams, prophetic utterances, miracle workers, magicians, diviners, and sorcerers also populate this world. It is a world where God lived in the sky (Heaven), and the dead "lived" on in the dark recesses of the Earth (Sheol).

This is a strange world when compared to our world, but Christians believe that this world was real in the past. My contention is not that ancient people were stupid, but that they were very superstitious. As Christopher Hitchens puts it: "One must state it plainly. Religion comes from the period of human prehistory where nobody had the smallest idea what was going on. It comes from the bawling and fearful infancy of our species, and is a babyish attempt to meet our inescapable demand for knowledge."[18]

One can perform scientific tests for what I consider superstitious beliefs. One can compare what a meteorologist says about the weather with what someone who plans to do a rain dance says about it, and then test to see who's right more often. Testing and comparing results is science. The results of reason and science have jettisoned a great many superstitions. One can also test the superstitious practice of blood-letting, exorcisms, people who claim to predict things based on palm reading or tea leaves, and the effects of walking under a ladder, breaking a mirror, or stepping on a sidewalk crack. One can also test the efficacy of a shot of penicillin in providing recovery from sickness against the efficacy of prayer alone among those who refuse medicine for religious reasons. And we modern people are indebted to science for the advances in quality of life brought about by modern medicine. Science is what makes us different from ancient people.

Voltaire said: "Every man is a creature of the age in which he lives, and few are able to raise themselves above the ideas of their time."[19] The Bible describes so many prevalent superstitious beliefs within Gentile nations that there is little doubt that superstition reigned during biblical times. Moreover, these beliefs were so prevalent that the Bible even portrays God's "chosen people" regularly participating in foreign religious rituals and worshipping other nations' gods and goddesses. Evidently, then, the beliefs of the Israelites themselves—and later their Christian successors—were collectively forged within a highly superstitious cultural mindset.

In the modern world we no longer believe in a god of the sun, the moon, the harvest, fertility, rain, or the sea. We don't see omens in an eclipse, a flood, a storm, a snakebite, or a drought. This falling away is due to our better understanding of nature than that of our ancestors, made possible only by the advance of science. Thoughtful, educated people today do not see sickness as the result of possession by demons, nor do we believe that astrology can provide us with insight into the future. We do not think that we are physically any closer to God whether we're up on a mountaintop or down in a valley. But the citizens of ancient nations nearly universally believed such things. While it is conceivable that ancient Jews and Christians where unlike all of their neighbors and formed their beliefs on the basis of the evidence available to them, it is not very likely.'

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/john_loftus/christianity.html#bib1
 

~ Gheb ~

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Yep, we are blaming religion for our actions.

I think everyone agrees, no?
But just as I said in my previous post: It's not the religion but only the church - the institution that represents religion. People don't see the difference anymore
 

RDK

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The church is just a physical representation of religion. I don't see how there's confusion here.

Religion, and ultimately the people, are still at fault.
 

~ Gheb ~

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The church is just a physical representation of religion. I don't see how there's confusion here.
Because what the church does / did doesn't always represent what religion is about. Burning witches was never mentoned in any biblical text in a form in which it was done in the middle ages. People blame christianity for it, even though it has nothing to do with the religion at all.
 

RDK

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Because what the church does / did doesn't always represent what religion is about. Burning witches was never mentoned in any biblical text in a form in which it was done in the middle ages. People blame christianity for it, even though it has nothing to do with the religion at all.
You're injecting some sort of difference between the Christians that burned innocent people at the stake and the supposed image of a "true Christian", whatever that is.

There's really no difference; all religions are essentially the same. Just because the Bible doesn't say to go out and burn witches at the stake (although it's all but implied) doesn't mean that it wasn't part of the Christian dogma at the time. Again, it's still religion--and ultimately the people's--fault.
 

Hive

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what? how can you possibly equate witch burning as indicative of everyone at the time that was religious??!
that's careless reasoning...

and all religions aren't the same... where do you get this from?
 

urdailywater

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You need to learn history I think, sorry if that comes off as offensive but it's true. (history is a touchy subject with me)

The Crusades for instance may have started as a holy war, but really it was just a war for land. There was actually very little religious motivation behind the crusades after the first one.

The final Crusade wasn't even waged against Islam, it didn't even head to the middle east. The last crusade was to sac Constantinople.
My fault for a crappy school education. I was taught the way I was taught I guess.


Aesir said:
Explain this please, religion is an institution it isn't alive, it doesn't breath, it doesn't think. It's strictly a tool, any fault of religion comes from it's members.
Then I guess this basically answers the question. Religion is just an idea. Nothing much can be done about something that's been around for so long. If people choose to blame it, then they can.. nothing much can be done about it.
 

RDK

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what? how can you possibly equate witch burning as indicative of everyone at the time that was religious??!
that's careless reasoning...

and all religions aren't the same... where do you get this from?
No no no, you're misunderstanding me. My point was not that all Christians at that time thought it was okay to burn people at the stake. What I meant was that some did, and those people professed to be Christians. Gheb was making it sound like those people were "false Christians" or something like that, when in reality, that particular sect is just as valid as any other interpretation of Christianity. That's why there are fifty million different factions of protestantism today; it's all about interpretation.

And Darxmarth, why do you insist on posting in red like that? It's ****ing annoying.
 

Zero Beat

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Very well then, I think we've established the following:

As an idea created and defined by men, religion itself doesn't do the killings, as it is just a word. We(Or should I say THOSE KINDA PEOPLE[which we are sadly related to]) are to blame. Oui? Oui!

Closed?????????????????????
 
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