Is Ike as bad a character as people say he is?

[Darkenedsoul]

i still think Ike looks aswome ^^

 

[Hellbeing]

You see... everyone is saying Ike sucks out of what they SAW... 90% of us havent played the demo or him. All we can really do is listen to what everyone who DID play it and him say, And thats just their impressions. They didnt play on it long enough to find out everything about everyone. There are plenty of missing things we dont know about Ike. And things we dont know that we dont know. In conclusion, Ike could pwn everyone, we just dont know it yet.

 

[Saph66]

Stop denying that Ike sucks right now. It is only for now, until they change him that is, thats a if they change him. You gotta listen to these people who actually played the game at E for all. Its freaking Gimpy and Hugs and other good players that played the game, they are top pros. If you aren't a competitive player you wouldnt know I guess, but I'm not saying that you have to be a competitive player. And if they say he sucks at the moment, listen to them he does suck.

 

[Roy-Kun]

Heh, I knew this would happen. >_>

In Brawl powerful characters get incredibly screwed up, and weaklings get 00berpowered.

It's a logic that I dislike, >_>

 

[Dynamism]

they won't be changing much at all. I don't know where these ideas are coming from that they can alter the **** out of the entire roster and will do it over a couple peoples thoughts on a 4 day craze. By the looks of it, if they did litsen, they wouldn't change a thing because they'd realize even "pros" as you call them (from a different game all together) thought a character they saw and moved for the first time was slow. They wouldn't make Ike any better anyway cause they obviously want n00bs to have some balance, and Ike owned among most of that event cause they were all n00bs...

Anywho, he may suck in current perception, but that's just it, a perception is just a thought.
I'm sick of this argument cause none of it means a thing.
Nobody knows one from the other in phase one.

 

[Chaosblade77]

they won't be changing much at all. I don't know where these ideas are coming from that they can alter the **** out of the entire roster and will do it over a couple peoples thoughts on a 4 day craze. By the looks of it, if they did litsen, they wouldn't change a thing because they'd realize even "pros" as you call them (from a different game all together) thought a character they saw and moved for the first time was slow. They wouldn't make Ike any better anyway cause they obviously want n00bs to have some balance, and Ike owned among most of that event cause they were all n00bs...

Anywho, he may suck in current perception, but that's just it, a perception is just a thought.
I'm sick of this argument cause none of it means a thing.
Nobody knows one from the other in phase one.

Uh... what?

So let me get this straight:

You would rather have a roster with 35+ characters but have several (or many) unbalanced characters that are automatically low tier just for their stats, eg. Ike's speed?

Also, the people who were at the event, who played more characters than just Ike and can compare how well he played to how well the other characters played, do not know what they are talking about?

That is what I got out of it at least...

Yeah, Ike sucks in everyone's (except those in denial or does not know what is going on) mind right now, and none of the other characters do. That is where the problem is. Why not have balanced characters, at least as balanced as possible, from the very beginning? The game would be so much better with more "good characters" and less that are just naturally low tier and unused by the general population.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Ike sounds like the next Ganondorf-style character (from Melee)... only Ganondorf was better. XD

 

[Dynamism]

k

let's straighten this

I would rather have 40 + characters but have general balance among the entire roster. Certain stats give them weaknesses (Ikes attack wind-up speed, Sonics grounded attack diversity) and some strengths (Ikes attack covering range, Sonics ground movement speed)

Also, the people who were at the event, who played more characters than just Ike and can compare how well he played to how well the other characters played, don't main Ike, didn't know what to expect, had minimal time with each character, tested moves as single attacks and basic set ups along with experimenting with variations of tactics and stratagies that can be used, in general to the game and ocasionally character specifics.
That's a bit much, but yeah, they have an idea and they are sharing it with those who want to know. "applauds"
But it only counts for so much.
At least it's something to follow.

None of the other characters suck? Then you're happy right? Balance? Good, and I'm sure with a little more understanding, Ike will be in that group too...but not Peach...she will suck

Yeah Ike sucks in the minds of those who think he does...makes sense...

We've only seen the surface, he very well could be absolutely pathetic. Maybe because of his speed or maybe something else entirely. We've only seen the surface and I hope the core has something more to offer, and something to argue

Edit: I really was this game to cover the whole spectrum though (Fox/Bowser, Sonic/Ike) and if one character seems really bad at first (or later too) then so be it, but I'm sure they can manage to get it right (at least almost)
Brawl just started (well not really)
How about we wait a year until Ike wins one of those overly credible tourneys...or PHAILS 100% while the obviously god tier characters like Diddy win

 

[Rx-]

Gimpy said that all of Ike's moves were comparable in power/knockback to Marth's tippers. I think it would be cool to see top players using Ike, and only having to land 2 hits for each kill. I think the heavy armor is meant to allow Ike playability.

 

[Chaosblade77]

k

let's straighten this

I would rather have 40 + characters but have general balance among the entire roster. Certain stats give them weaknesses (Ikes attack wind-up speed, Sonics grounded attack diversity) and some strengths (Ikes attack covering range, Sonics ground movement speed)

Also, the people who were at the event, who played more characters than just Ike and can compare how well he played to how well the other characters played, don't main Ike, didn't know what to expect, had minimal time with each character, tested moves as single attacks and basic set ups along with experimenting with variations of tactics and stratagies that can be used, in general to the game and ocasionally character specifics.
That's a bit much, but yeah, they have an idea and they are sharing it with those who want to know. "applauds"
But it only counts for so much.
At least it's something to follow.

None of the other characters suck? Then you're happy right? Balance? Good, and I'm sure with a little more understanding, Ike will be in that group too...but not Peach...she will suck

Yeah Ike sucks in the minds of those who think he does...makes sense...

We've only seen the surface, he very well could be absolutely pathetic. Maybe because of his speed or maybe something else entirely. We've only seen the surface and I hope the core has something more to offer, and something to argue

That makes much more sense, thank you for clarifying

I agree those who played only scratched the surface, and at least we can all hope for the best for Ike. Sure, not all characters should be equal to the point that they are the exact same, but they should have some form of balance.

 

[LordIke100]

I think Ike is generally a good character. I am still thinking on one great combo of Ike, maybe using Aether. Those SUPER ARMOR FRAMES will be very useful to kill fragile characters thta can be blown with a great smash attack. Hey guys, what do you think of Jump Cancelling Ike's amazing UpSmash, I've heard his range is amazing, like if Ike was using a cutting sheld or something.

Maybe you know, Ike's grabs may make Ike a really great character, yes, only the grabs.
On one of the updates on the site, ike is seen throwing Link to the air with his UpGrab and slashing him with his UpSmash, which is very powerful. Maybe the grabs are fast, and have a very great combo potential. But, one thing I notice was the following:


Ike leaves the sword stucked in the sword while grabbing. Could Ike take away his sword?
That would be intersting


Also his grabs, if the grabs haved a SUPER ARMOR Effect, then this will be an amazing combo potential move. I mean:

Grab the opponent.
Then the SUPER ARMOR FRAME activates.
Finally slashing him away with the amazingly powerful UpSmash.

That could make light character without projectiles run!

What do you think about Ike?
I think he will be Middle Tier.

What do you htink of my ideas?

 

[KirbySSB]

I think Ike will suck and be bottom tier. Lol.

But I'll still use him a lot LOL just not as a main

 

[Zink]

lol lordike I seriously have no idea what you just said. you say super armor like it's an auto win thing. and grabs having SA would be horribly broken.

 

[Chaosblade77]

lol lordike I seriously have no idea what you just said. you say super armor like it's an auto win thing. and grabs having SA would be horribly broken.

From the looks of it Ike's grabs do have some super armor. And from the sounds of it, will not make a character broken because of when it comes into play. It seems like Ike has it when he is not holding his sword, as well as other times, it seems.

Really, even with the super armor, if he can't hit his opponent, what good does it do? Makes him last a bit longer I guess.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

You see... everyone is saying Ike sucks out of what they SAW... 90% of us havent played the demo or him. All we can really do is listen to what everyone who DID play it and him say, And thats just their impressions. They didnt play on it long enough to find out everything about everyone. There are plenty of missing things we dont know about Ike. And things we dont know that we dont know. In conclusion, Ike could pwn everyone, we just dont know it yet.

Why are you people in such denial?

We were at the convention playing with him and asking the people who played him their impressions. For christ sake, I spent alot of time with someone who played Ike, and played against his Ike constantly. Every person you ask says the same thing "He is extremely slow" or "He is horrible". Those were the main answers that I recieved from the people who played Ike.

Sure, only a very small percentages of us played the game, but we are being as honest as we possibly can, and just because your favorite character isn't that great you shun the idea of him possibly not being that good. I know it isn't possible to master a character within a few days, but if you cannot progress with said character to an extent and other characters can progress, doesn't that mean that there is a problem with the character?

Now, about that whole "There is stuff we don't know" crap. What is there to discover besides his moves and a few basic engine techniques that everyone can use? We have discovered every move Ike has, and none of them are even good enough to come in contact to the opponent (The only moves with this exception are his A-A-A combo and his Dash attack). His aerials can't be canceled properly due to the way that the new L-cancel is executed. The aerials wouldn't even be able to come out because of the start up lag.

Since I have to get specific, i'll name all of Ike's Pro's and Con's.

Pro's

-Massive Hitsun on moves
-Some attacks go through shields (Aether and U-smash)
-Very powerful strikes with heavy hitstun.

Cons

-All of his attacks have massive start up lag and ending lag.
-Horrible recovery
-Inability to manuever after hits
-Inability to string attacks or grabs
-Super Armor frames can be grabbed out of (Believe it or not, they are not that useful, only good for a few frames)
-All of his attacks leave him wide open
-Gains Very little horizontal distance on his jumps
-Generally a slow moving character
-Predictable
-No safe attacking methods.

Please people, just accept it, Ike currently (Take note, I said currently; without being altered) has no potential to be a good character despite any argument. If you didn't go to E For All and play Ike, then don't try to say that he is better because of the general impressions you get from the video.

I think Ike is generally a good character

He isn't.

I am still thinking on one great combo of Ike, maybe using Aether. Those SUPER ARMOR FRAMES will be very useful to kill fragile characters thta can be blown with a great smash attack.

Aether is a very slow on the ground. The move has a lot of pre and post lag when grounded, not very much when airborne though.. You can't combo it at all. Even if you were able to hit someone with Ike's attacks, you couldn't do another one after it because of the pre and post lag. The super armor frames are completely over rated as they only provide you security for some attacks. You can still just as easilty be grabbed out of the attacks.

Ike does have strong attacks, but you can't land them for anything. Light charatcers such as Peach and MetaKnight would never get hit as easily by one of those attacks. Peach is a generally good character with a projectile game, and MetaKnight can attack fast.

Hey guys, what do you think of Jump Cancelling Ike's amazing UpSmash, I've heard his range is amazing, like if Ike was using a cutting sheld or something.

His Up Smash is the slowest of all of his smash attacks. Jump Canceling it wouldn't do anything.

Maybe you know, Ike's grabs may make Ike a really great character, yes, only the grabs.

Ike's grabs aren't that great, and even those have lag.

You can't even follow up an attack with his grabs.

On one of the updates on the site, ike is seen throwing Link to the air with his UpGrab and slashing him with his UpSmash

You can just easily JUMP considering that the throw doesn't have a low enough trajectory to attack with. And as laggy as his Up smash I would be suprised if you can hit the opponent without him noticing the attack coming.

, which is very powerful. Maybe the grabs are fast, and have a very great combo potential. But, one thing I notice was the following:

Ike leaves the sword stucked in the sword while grabbing. Could Ike take away his sword?
That would be intersting

No, he cannot. That's only one of his throw animations.

Also his grabs, if the grabs haved a SUPER ARMOR Effect

They don't....

then this will be an amazing combo potential move. I mean:

Grab the opponent.
Then the SUPER ARMOR FRAME activates.
Finally slashing him away with the amazingly powerful UpSmash.

That doesn't work, and won't work as long as your opponent has 1/4th of a brain and jumps.

That could make light character without projectiles run!

Quite the contrary, as everyone who played Ike always counter picked with another character insted.

What do you think about Ike?
I think he will be Middle Tier.

no.

At this rate, I know he ill be bottom.

What do you htink of my ideas?

Your ideas are false assumptions whcich have been proven false numerous times through research.

 

[GenG]

We have discovered every move Ike has, and none of them are even good enough to come in contact to the opponent (The only moves with this exception are his A-A-A combo and his Dash attack). His aerials can't be canceled properly due to the way that the new L-cancel is executed. The aerials wouldn't even be able to come out because of the start up lag.

But, his bair is quick, his forward special seems useful and he has counter (which is useful against pressure).

I'm not buying he's conveniently faster in the videos. That means that the whole cast is also faster in the videos, which means they are all actually slower, and that's isn't that bad. I know video recording makes games faster because frame skipping, but if Ike is slower, then the game itself is slower.

Ike vs DK vs Link vs Samus in Skyworld.

Ike could strike out of a midair hit at 1:05.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

But, his bair is quick, his forward special seems useful and he has counter (which is useful against pressure).

I'm not buying he's conveniently faster in the videos. That means that the whole cast is also faster in the videos, which means they are all actually slower, and that's isn't that bad. I know video recording makes games faster because frame skipping, but if Ike is slower, then the game itself is slower.

Ike vs DK vs Link vs Samus in Skyworld.

Ike could strike out of a midair hit at 1:05.

His Bair is about as fast as Links Fair in comparison. His forward special is decent, it just can't be used in mid air safely (It counts as a third jump). Counter is a usefull tool, but it's only fully utilized in edge gaurding.

When I mentioned speed I wasn't talking about the speed of the characters, because Ike is an average when it comes to physical movement. His attack speed is the primary problem with Ike. All of his moves have pre and post lag like you have ever seen in any slow characters. Without any safe attacks, he can get punished easily, even with armor frames. If Ike had less pre lag on his attacks he would be much better. I know they wanted his power to be balanced, but that's just going too far.

Also, Ike didn't get hit in mid air during the screw attack, he just recovered from the stun and did an aerial directly out of it.

 

[GenG]

His Bair is about as fast as Links Fair in comparison.

What? Link's fair in Melee or in Brawl? There's no way it's like Melee's, the move is very quick. I can't compare it with Brawl's because I haven't seen it.

Ike in Delfino Isle at 0:35.

Or Smash Final Compilation at 3:19.

I don't know what's so bad about fair, it has a startup similar to IC's fair, but more post lag. It looks like a good move. Ike even jumped after a fair, so it can't be so laggy. Unlike DK's fair...

Uair doesn't seem very useful, but it's strong. I've seen Ike juggling with uair in this video.

I've only seen dair once and people who attended hasn't commented on it.

 

[Percon]

Lawl at the Ike hopefuls defending him. (The exception is GenG who is is doing a decent job defending him given all we know about him. Though I doubt he's played him.)

Ike isn't good. Face it, people, please. I want him to be good just like you guys, but at least recognize that he isn't good.

There are two hopes for Ike:

-We learn to use him in ways that we don't know (new glitches, etc.)
-They buff him for the final release

That's about it.

BTW, to those who have played the Demo, do you think an Ike mirror would be fun and challenging or ridiculous?

 

[Saph66]

Even if we do find new exploits in the game, other characters better than Ike already get that as well, making them still better at what Ike can do. Ike will be better, but everyone will be better just the same way they already were without the exploits. O well, hope they fix him.

 

[Percon]

I was kind of implying that the glitches would be Ike-specific, otherwise he wouldn't really e gaining on other characters, as you said...

 

[Saph66]

Rofl lets find a glitch for Ike where he gets 100% super armor. Cant be killed unless he kills himself. lol

 

[Percon]

Haha, or a glitch that always makes his fsmash phantom hit.

 

[Chaosblade77]

Rofl lets find a glitch for Ike where he gets 100% super armor. Cant be killed unless he kills himself. lol

Ike would pretty much be tourny banned in that case lol

 

[Gimpyfish62]

wow i guess i need to talk about ike more than i thought i'll rerecord some stuff

basically no, we haven't discovered all of the possible STRATEGIES for ike, but all of the competitive players who know what makes a good character and a bad character can agree that ike is a smoldering pile of garbage.

i love ike, he's a really cool character, but he really, really sucks. How do you not understand this? i main bowser, and ike was so horrendously slow i wanted to slap whoever was responsible and tell them to fix ike.

 

[WooICYU]

Woooo
I personally hope that Ike will be buffed up, hes seems like an intresting character to play.

 

[Zek]

I really hope they come up with a way to make Ike good without giving him any fast attacks. Unique playstyles are a good thing. It would be lame if they took the easy path and just balanced out his speed and damage to be more like established characters.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

What? Link's fair in Melee or in Brawl? There's no way it's like Melee's, the move is very quick. I can't compare it with Brawl's because I haven't seen it.

Ike in Delfino Isle at 0:35.

Or Smash Final Compilation at 3:19.

I don't know what's so bad about fair, it has a startup similar to IC's fair, but more post lag. It looks like a good move. Ike even jumped after a fair, so it can't be so laggy. Unlike DK's fair...

Uair doesn't seem very useful, but it's strong. I've seen Ike juggling with uair in this video.

I've only seen dair once and people who attended hasn't commented on it.

I meant Ike's Fair in Brawl, not Melee.

Those are some decent aerials though, but the Fair can be questioned in regaurds of lag issues.

 

[GenG]

I really hope they come up with a way to make Ike good without giving him any fast attacks. Unique playstyles are a good thing. It would be lame if they took the easy path and just balanced out his speed and damage to be more like established characters.

My thoughts exactly. Fast characters always are on the top, and that's just unfair (this comes from a Falcon mainer). If Ike could handle fast characters with slow moves that would be a geniality. Super armor frames were implemented to handle that. For example, I've seen Ike crouch canceling a dtilt, and super armor frames made him take no knockback.

However, I'd rather have a playable character than a failed experiment.

I thought Bowser and Mewtwo were bad in Melee because the game was rushed and they couldn't polish them. The whole game felt rushed in many ways. But now they have time to fix the game. Time to try matchups and stages as they look for glitches and aim for balance.

If Ike is so ****ity bad they will notice. They nerfed the fast characters, and improved the worst ones. I think they know what they are doing.

 

[Chaosblade77]

My thoughts exactly. Fast characters always are on the top, and that's just unfair (this comes from a Falcon mainer). If Ike could handle fast characters with slow moves that would be a geniality. Super armor frames were implemented to handle that. For example, I've seen Ike crouch canceling a dtilt, and super armor frames made him take no knockback.

If Ike can handle fast characters with a slow moveset, Sakurai will have changed the future of fighting games in general.

However, I'd rather have a playable character than a failed experiment.

I couldn't agree more....

If Ike is so ****ity bad they will notice. They nerfed the fast characters, and improved the worst ones. I think they know what they are doing.

True, those guys who are making the game know Smash well, and they will either fix him or know something that we don't. The game is in good hands.

 

[Dynamism]

A game where a blue blur and a pylon are at even terms is a game to go down in history. Every end of every spectrum all in one, amazing, awesome, cool, balanced way. They know what they're doing...right now...in brawl...we don't

 

[AlphaDragoon2002]

I think they probably will buff Ike's speed somewhat after seeing the demo, or take off the heavy pre/post lag on his Smash attacks. Either that or give him the super armor of God so that you have to hit him pretty effing hard to stop his assault.

But whatever they decide to do, I'm not worried. Sakurai really seems to be paying attention to what the fans say on this one, and he'll probably be balancing and tweaking the characters right down til' the release.

 

[Zink]

I wouldn't be so sure. It's only a few months, and the game was pushed back before E for All. They must have had other things to finish first, so I doubt there's time for balance fixes.

 

[Eratangos]

Isn't PAL better balanced than NTSC in a matter of weeks. If Sakurai isn't even afraid to change a finished product for the better, then he can be trusted to improve on just a demo with a larger staff and more time.

 

[Chaosblade77]

The last couple months or so of development of major software or games is bug fixes and minor tweaks. If a game as big as Smash Brothers is not done with about two months left for testing and QA stuff, then there is a problem and it needs a delay. My guess for the games timeline is:

* - Nov 25 : Development
Nov 25 - Jan 20 : testing/tweaking, QA tests, bugs, etc. (eg. where Ike gets fixed)
Jan 20 - * : Printing/Publication
Feb 1 - * : Game starts shipping

Of course the dates are estimates, but that is probably the general idea.
* = No specific date (unsure of start time, or will not stop in the forseen future)

 

[Gimpyfish62]

check out my blog i talk about ike for you guys

 

[NastyMcMean]

Well........... my theory is that there are naturally parts of the game like items and grabs that cant be slow, so playing with 4 ppl with a mastered Ike i am doubtful he wouldnt pwn. But one on one, no items, if he really doesnt have ONE move that cant engage quickly he is hopeless.

 

[Zink]

PAl wasn't as much balanced as it had a bit of frame data changed. ike really needs kind of an overhaul on overall playstyle.

 

[Dynamism]

Or we just need to learn his playstyle... *raise eyebrow*

 

[B.A.R.S]

He would proablly just be like roy, he seems to be very strong like him but not quick like marth.