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Is God... PG Version

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Nicholas1024

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Basically, if this is what is commonly perceived to be the most logical and rational notion of God, I write this post as Bob Jane T-Mart insightfully put it "[in the] proverbial backwaters of some video game forum to be only read by a few people." to object to that notion of God. Anyway, I like the way he put that. In the following paragraphs I will assert that this is not the most logical notion of God.


First, I'm going to lay down some... clarifications if you will.

We will refer to to "God" as the deity described by the canonical Bible... I want to limit this debate to make it easier to reach a conclusion.
I do not wish to limit the debate to any one translation, but I don't wish to get all hung up on translation issues either, so we will see how that unfolds.
We will not assume all of the Biblical passages are literal, but there must be explanation by the individual giving the argument as to why they Biblical passages should not be taken literally if they should not be.
We will not deny scientific truths or the scientific perspective because of theology without ample (and described) reason.

Omniscient

The problem with omniscience is that it creates problems with the other attributes. In fact, the main premise of this post is to assert those attributes are self-contradictory. Omniscience creates a deterministic world. This goes beyond they typical deterministic world where there is no free will and events are chain reactions. Those worlds are different because in the non-religious deterministic world, there is room for multiple possible outcomes of events due to indeterminant events, which I won't go into deeply without being asked to. However, in this world of an Omniscient world, there can only be one outcome. If God knows all, including the future, there is only that future as a possibility. I will repeat myself, there is only one possible future. This creates problems with other attributes which I will address later.

Omnipotent

Well first off we have those funny paradoxes "God can't make a rock he can't lift." I don't care about those. Really, this could also create plenty of issues, but since I have no solid refutation for the "God has all power but does not exercise all power" possibility, this attribute will be granted.

Omnipresent

I'm not entirely sure what this all entails, or what it even means, clarification would be nice, I wouldn't want to straw man opposition with an unsatisfactory definition.

Omnibenevolent

This is where we run into problems. God knows the future, right? Then he knows from the moment a individual is born, that that person is going to burn in hell for eternity. He knows the future, this is the only future possible- to say otherwise would deny his omniscience- and from the moment this person is born, neigh, from before they were born, they had no choice other than to die a nonbeliever and suffer for the rest of eternity. I don't understand how an omnibenevolent God could send people, people without a choice otherwise, to suffer forever. They never had a chance because there was only one path they could follow.


Eternal

I will make no objections to this attribute at this point.

Divinely Simple

Again, I don't know what exactly is meant by this. If I were go go from what I think, I'm pretty sure I would straw man it, and I don't want to create that mess, so I will wait until I get a more solid idea of what it means.

Self-Necessary

I'm not 100% sure what is meant by this, but I'm tired of saying I don't know what is meant by half of these attributes so I am just going to go off of what I think is meant. This is based around the "first cause" concept, no? The whole casual argument, correct? Well this point isn't really self-contradictory with the other points as much as merely incorrect. There is no scientific need for there to be a God. No need for anyone to "start things up." As Stephan Hawking has pointed out (I can find articles if you want them), time is not necessarily something that had a beginning. There isn't evidence to conclude that this is the case, but conversely, there isn't any more evidence to suggest otherwise. Not that we can assume a start to time, be it by a God or otherwise, is not necessary, merely that just as much as we cannot assert that, we cannot assert the necessity of said start. Therefore self-necessary is most certainly not a attribute of God from this perspective. (again, I fear I may have straw-manned the opposition)


Well, there you go. If those unclear points are clarified I can give some thoughts on them. At this point the assertions are that omniscience and omnibenevolence contradict each other and that God is not self-necessary.
That's the OP, here's my stance on it.

The main problem with the above argument, is that God doesn't exist inside time. God exists outside the dimension of time, allowing him to be omniscient, without predestining everything. I know this is tricky to understand, so let me try an illustration.

If you're making an animation, you can go back at any point inside the timeline to change things to your liking. You have omniscience (you know what will happen), and omnipotence (you have all power) regarding your animation. If you somehow made creatures with free will (I know we can't do that because we're merely human, but stay with me!), they could retain their free will, while you could still know everything: You'd merely have to watch the animation again and see what they did.

I think the way God interacts with reality is similar to that. He sees the entire timeline all at once, and therefore knows what you're going to do because he sees you doing it, not because you're predestined to do it.

This takes away the problem with God's goodness. Since they had free will, every person that dies a sinner rejected God's grace, and therefore deserves what's coming to him. To put that grace in perspective, God sent his Son Jesus to die an extremely painful death, bearing all the sin of the world, before descending into Hell itself for several days and finally defeating Satan and rising from the grave. All you have to do is say "I'm sorry God, please forgive me", but every non-believer just spits in God's face, and says no.

Side note: Regarding infants and those who die before intellectual maturity... I'll be honest, I don't know what happens. I trust that God has some plan regarding them, but I don't know what that plan is. I understand that's a less-than satisfactory answer, but it's the best I can give you.
 

GwJ

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Stop trying to debate God. It doesn't work; you can't argue with a God-believer.
 

ballin4life

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It's still an awfully strange definition of "benevolent" that allows people from India who have never been introduced to your religion to go to hell. That's not even to mention the massive advantage that some people have from being born to parents who already follow your religion (which presumably you say is the correct one). That isn't really your choice, and you don't deserve to go to heaven just because you've been taught beliefs since before your "intellectual maturity".

Not to mention that you are really just sidestepping the issue. God knows that certain people will go to hell (in fact, for him they are already in hell). From the second he draws them he sees that they are in hell. I don't see how you really have free will then if God can know your future.
 

A1lion835

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I don't believe it's likely possible to prove / disprove God, but here's my stance on it.

Suppose there isn't a God. That means there is no afterlife. And that means that all intelligence ceases to exist upon death. You are nothing but a bunch of chemical reactions. If you're nothing when you're gone, what's the point of living? What do you gain? If I were absolutely certain I would cease to exist, I'd go jump off a bridge right now, and I wouldn't know anything had happened. I wouldn't suffer very much pain, and in the end I'd be able to get a final, peaceful, eternal sleep. It's a similar to the hypothetical where all life on Earth is simultaneously and completely destroyed; it has no impact on us, because no one's left to suffer.

I'm a deist, not because I have any strong argument in support of a deity, but because I like the image of the world better that way.
 
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who says there's an afterlife if there actually exists a god? just because he would have the properties as described doesn't imply that he would create an "afterlife" (let's not make this a "what is life" debate but the notion of afterlife in general is just quite vague and tbh an instrument of theist leaders to make peopel listen to them)

but let's say there's an afterlife.
What's the point of being in the afterlife? you might as well jump off the bridge there as well since you're going to get bored after an eternity or 2. (even is god had an infinite amount of ideas you also have an infinite time to get bored. but let's not bring in the cardinality of god's creativity in here)
 

Nicholas1024

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It's still an awfully strange definition of "benevolent" that allows people from India who have never been introduced to your religion to go to hell. That's not even to mention the massive advantage that some people have from being born to parents who already follow your religion (which presumably you say is the correct one). That isn't really your choice, and you don't deserve to go to heaven just because you've been taught beliefs since before your "intellectual maturity".
People still have to choose for themselves. There are a TON of kids that get brought up in Christian households but just drift away. (It's the norm, actually. Sad, isn't it?)

Also, there's an inherent flaw in your argument that everyone HAS to get equal opportunity. Suppose I gave you 10$ but freeman 30$. It might not be "fair", but don't I have the right to distribute my money as I please? Similarly, doesn't God get to distribute his grace as he pleases?

By the by, regarding the poor indian... I've heard stories about people who were seeking God but could have no natural contact with Christians having dreams/similar about Jesus and becoming Christians themselves. God is... you know, all-powerful. He can send someone a message if he wants to.

Not to mention that you are really just sidestepping the issue. God knows that certain people will go to hell (in fact, for him they are already in hell). From the second he draws them he sees that they are in hell. I don't see how you really have free will then if God can know your future.
Suppose I gained the ability to time travel, and went back and forth in the timeline, learning everything that you ever did. Therefore, I know your future. Does that mean you suddenly lose free will? Of course not! What makes it so different if God's the one that sees your future?

Also, there being free will/no free will makes a big difference, IMO. Suppose you were a judge, and two murderers were brought before you: One who was forced into doing his crime (A mobster was threatening to kill his family, make up your own favorite scenario), but the other did his completely out of his own free will. Which one would you give a harsher sentence?
 
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Suppose I gained the ability to time travel, and went back and forth in the timeline, learning everything that you ever did. Therefore, I know your future. Does that mean you suddenly lose free will? Of course not! What makes it so different if God's the one that sees your future?
?
god actually puts the "non-believers" in this "hell". thus god actually creates you knowing he'll put you in hell at the end of your life. in other words he designed you to be a "goes to hell" persona.
You haven't lost "free will" during your life but for god that doesn't matter since he will already know how it will end. more importantly, he chose that ending.
 

ballin4life

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I don't believe it's likely possible to prove / disprove God, but here's my stance on it.

Suppose there isn't a God. That means there is no afterlife. And that means that all intelligence ceases to exist upon death. You are nothing but a bunch of chemical reactions. If you're nothing when you're gone, what's the point of living? What do you gain? If I were absolutely certain I would cease to exist, I'd go jump off a bridge right now, and I wouldn't know anything had happened. I wouldn't suffer very much pain, and in the end I'd be able to get a final, peaceful, eternal sleep. It's a similar to the hypothetical where all life on Earth is simultaneously and completely destroyed; it has no impact on us, because no one's left to suffer.

I'm a deist, not because I have any strong argument in support of a deity, but because I like the image of the world better that way.
You have it completely backwards. If there is no afterlife then I want to maximize my pleasure now while I still can.

In truth, everyone is actually doing this anyway. You just factor the afterlife into your calculations (e.g. I'm going to church right now, and that makes me happy because I know I will go to heaven).

People still have to choose for themselves. There are a TON of kids that get brought up in Christian households but just drift away. (It's the norm, actually. Sad, isn't it?)

Also, there's an inherent flaw in your argument that everyone HAS to get equal opportunity. Suppose I gave you 10$ but freeman 30$. It might not be "fair", but don't I have the right to distribute my money as I please? Similarly, doesn't God get to distribute his grace as he pleases?
It's kind of a **** move if you also say "yeah and you need $20 to get into heaven".

By the by, regarding the poor indian... I've heard stories about people who were seeking God but could have no natural contact with Christians having dreams/similar about Jesus and becoming Christians themselves. God is... you know, all-powerful. He can send someone a message if he wants to.
Pretty rare cases there. I'm pretty sure the vast majority do not have these dreams. And now they all go to hell because they never even heard of God in the first place?

Suppose I gained the ability to time travel, and went back and forth in the timeline, learning everything that you ever did. Therefore, I know your future. Does that mean you suddenly lose free will? Of course not! What makes it so different if God's the one that sees your future?
If the future you saw was guaranteed to pass then yes it would (I don't think such a form of time travel is really possible, but whatever). I don't think the future is set in stone that way.

But anyway, if God can detect the future in that way, then he created people just so they could go to hell.

Also, there being free will/no free will makes a big difference, IMO. Suppose you were a judge, and two murderers were brought before you: One who was forced into doing his crime (A mobster was threatening to kill his family, make up your own favorite scenario), but the other did his completely out of his own free will. Which one would you give a harsher sentence?
That's not really a free will vs no free will distinction. Even the person that was threatened still has free will (he could have let his family die), but he was still coerced into doing it, which mitigates the crime.

No free will would be if the mobster beat him unconscious and then pushed his fingers around until the trigger was pulled.

I'm not really sure where that came in though.

Anyway, I think it's much more coherent to say that God doesn't have knowledge of the future, specifically human decisions. I don't really see how that would weaken the notion of God either.
 

1048576

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What does this imply?

Come back when you have something testable.
 

Terywj [태리]

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I know this is tricky to understand, so let me try an illustration.

If you're making an animation, you can go back at any point inside the timeline to change things to your liking. You have omniscience (you know what will happen), and omnipotence (you have all power) regarding your animation. If you somehow made creatures with free will (I know we can't do that because we're merely human, but stay with me!), they could retain their free will, while you could still know everything: You'd merely have to watch the animation again and see what they did.
I think another example is through the means of a shopping list. The mother gives a father and her daughter a shopping list. The father and the daughter arrive at the supermarket. Suppose the daughter says to her father, "Daddy, I wanna get the dairy products first!" And for this scenario let's just suppose her fathers says, "Okay." Is free will present? Yes - the daughter selected a specific action - to get dairy products first. Does this decision affect the final outcome of the completed shopping list? No - because no matter what the daughter wants to collect first, the list will still be completed. Just something to think about.
 

Terywj [태리]

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Terywj,

What is the connection between the shopping list and God?
It was an example of predestination and free will intermixed, similar to the one provided in the OP.

Compare the creation of the shopping list and the fulfillment of said list with God's knowledge of the future and your actions in your life.
 

ballin4life

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Ok, so God doesn't have perfect knowledge of what will happen in your life, but he knows that he's going to send you to hell anyway?

Sounds like neither omniscient nor benevolent.

Correct me if I misunderstand you.
 

Terywj [태리]

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Ok, so God doesn't have perfect knowledge of what will happen in your life, but he knows that he's going to send you to hell anyway?

Sounds like neither omniscient nor benevolent.

Correct me if I misunderstand you.
I wasn't arguing any of those points, Ballin. But you could think of it as the shopping list represents a person's life, which God has full knowledge about, but gives you the options of what specifics during the life.

Forgive my Teryble wording.
 

professor mgw

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Could these debates be alittle more specific? There are over 100 branches of christianity that has it's own views. Im pretty sure most Athiest are on the same terms. When targeting such a big topic and pointing towards "the bible", the "facts" vary from religion to religion while everything pretty much stays the same on an atheist side. Sorry if it isn't clear (not being sarcastic)
 

_Keno_

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We are just arguing the theist point of view on whether a deity can be omniscient or omnipotent.

Honestly, I dont see how Christians can say, with a straight face, that a absolutely benevolent God is all powerful and all knowing, given that the world exists as it does today.

By the way, regarding the poor indian... I've heard stories about people who were seeking God but could have no natural contact with Christians having dreams/similar about Jesus and becoming Christians themselves. God is... you know, all-powerful. He can send someone a message if he wants to.
Those are nothing more than fictional inspirational stories.

Doesnt God gets to distribute his grace as he pleases?
So with this statement, are you throwing away the concept of a benevolent deity?

Also, free will is a terrible concept when combined with religion. If an omniscient deity makes a person with free will, then it will have made that person knowing his/her fate. If a particular person was made in such a way that he will be going to hell, the deity could have made that person differently so that that he did not go to hell. Either way, the deity predetermines a person's fate by deciding the person's essence. The only way a god could not predetermine someone's fate is by not knowing the end result of creating that person, which would make the deity non-omniscient.

This is all because the deity knows the outcome of every possible series of events of any alternate universe that could ever be made. If he has to choose to create one, he creates a universe knowing that certain people will go to hell if he does it. There is no free will, for any human, in that.
 

ballin4life

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We are just arguing the theist point of view on whether a deity can be omniscient or omnipotent.

Honestly, I dont see how Christians can say, with a straight face, that a absolutely benevolent God is all powerful and all knowing, given that the world exists as it does today.
You are projecting your definition of good onto God. God's idea of good might be exactly what we see today, and then he would be benevolent (additionally we could just define "good" as "what God wants")
 

_Keno_

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You are projecting your definition of good onto God. God's idea of good might be exactly what we see today, and then he would be benevolent (additionally we could just define "good" as "what God wants")
I never said "good", just benevolent, which I usually define as "the desire to help others" (in this case, it is God's desire to help humans and other life).

I really doubt that any Christian would agree that a starving child in Africa is the result of God's "good" (no matter the definition) and benevolence, otherwise God's good amounts to nothing.

You're right that I did not give definitions before posting though, and it seems to be a huge problem in the proving grounds, and even a slight problem in the DH.

God sure is a jack**s then.
That is pretty much the result you get when you combine an omni-god with the world that exists today.
 

ballin4life

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Saying God's good amounts to nothing is again using your own definition of what is good.

God might think that he is helping humans.

What do you think God should do about starving children in Africa?
 

_Keno_

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Both God's definition of good and my definition of good are completely subjective, and they will only amount to something if there is any purpose behind them.

And its more likely that it is letting them go to hell faster, not heaven.
 

ballin4life

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jaswa, that's another way of saying what I was saying I suppose. "Tainted by sin" = not following God's definition of good.

Also, seriously, what should God do? Magically have food appear? If he was willing to do stuff like that he would have left everybody in the Garden of Eden (or some other paradise), right?
 

Terywj [태리]

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Also, seriously, what should God do? Magically have food appear? If he was willing to do stuff like that he would have left everybody in the Garden of Eden (or some other paradise), right?
I thought that man was kicked out of the Garden because he fell victim to sin. Or rather, woman did, and then man. They caused their own demise by being tempted by sin.
 

_Keno_

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Also, seriously, what should God do? Magically have food appear? If he was willing to do stuff like that he would have left everybody in the Garden of Eden (or some other paradise), right?
Right. That is what I'm saying.

I thought that man was kicked out of the Garden because he fell victim to sin. Or rather, woman did, and then man. They caused their own demise by being tempted by sin.
That depends, most Christians nowadays say that they don't even take the Genesis story literally when a discussion of evolution comes up, but they do take it literally at church or whatever.

If it is taken literally (which I'm pretty sure it was meant to be), then God created Adam and Eve knowing that they would eventually sin. He easily could have created another version of Adam/Eve that wouldn't have sinned, but didn't. In this way, he is the source of sin, not humans. He created us to sin.
 

Terywj [태리]

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That depends, most Christians nowadays say that they don't even take the Genesis story literally when a discussion of evolution comes up, but they do take it literally at church or whatever.

If it is taken literally (which I'm pretty sure it was meant to be), then God created Adam and Eve knowing that they would eventually sin. He easily could have created another version of Adam/Eve that wouldn't have sinned, but didn't. In this way, he is the source of sin, not humans. He created us to sin.
This is essentially tied to the predestination+free choice mixture brought up before in the animation or shopping list examples. God knew ahead that man would fall, but man clearly had the choice not to sin. You cannot blame the Creator for something that man did.

If God had created an Adam/Eve who would not have sinned, then that is removing any free will, isn't it? Isn't this the idea which predestination+free choice is incorporated in one?
 

ballin4life

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This is essentially tied to the predestination+free choice mixture brought up before in the animation or shopping list examples. God knew ahead that man would fall, but man clearly had the choice not to sin. You cannot blame the Creator for something that man did.

If God had created an Adam/Eve who would not have sinned, then that is removing any free will, isn't it? Isn't this the idea which predestination+free choice is incorporated in one?
God could have made man differently so that he wouldn't sin.

I can totally blame the creator for making a creation that HE KNEW WAS ****TY.
 

Terywj [태리]

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Honestly though this topic is one of those things. If God man a flawless man, then none of these discussions would take place. Maybe God created man, giving him the choice to sin or not sin, and then sent his son to the cross to show his love for us? Maybe He created man just to watch him fail? We will just never know.
 

Nicholas1024

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*sigh* A Case for Faith (spiritual sequel to A Case for Christ, except it deals with moral rather than historical objections to God) is recommended reading here. The sticking point is that it is impossible for God to create a man with both the capacity of love, and without the possibility of sin. And here's why.

Sin, at its root, is disobeying God. If we take away the chance of that, then man has no choice BUT to obey God. Free will, and therefore love is no longer in the equation. And what's the point of making that?

Therefore, in order to give us meaningful life, there has to be potential for sin. And sad as it is, Adam and Eve did sin back in the garden.

Regarding benevolence: This mess is entirely our fault. Think of the sin-free relationship between man and God as a priceless antique that we broke, and now have to pay for. God could easily just go (as I imagine many of us would) "This mess is your fault, have fun on the fallen world you've created." However, instead God took it upon himself to fix it, by sending his Son to take the penalty for our sins by living a perfect life, dying on the cross, and descending into Hell. However, since he was sinless, satan couldn't hold Him.

@Cheap peach
If you're going to call me a liar, you'd better have some good reasoning behind it. (I'm pretty sure the example I gave came from A Case for Fatih, which is a reliable source as far as I'm concerned.) Also, if I gave you 30$, Ballin 70$, but didn't give Ballistic a thing, how is that NOT benevolent? God doesn't owe us anything. He'd be perfectly justified in just telling us to go to Hell as punishment for our crimes. The fact that he sent Christ to die for us proves that he's benevolent.

Regarding the poor little african that you guys are all so worried about... the Bible teaches that God will take his ignorance into account at the final judgement. I can't find the reference right now (I'm sure it's in the 4 gospels though), but to paraphrase: the servant aware of the wrong he did will be beaten with many stripes, but the servant who unknowingly did wrong will be beaten with few.
 

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Nicholas, I'm actually Reading a case for faith right now. I picked it up at my parish library.

It sucks.
 
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