Is Fox strictly better than Sonic?

[homicidalrapist]

Well, fox can take on some of the popular characters like MK, Snake, and DDD. fox's Dair does combo into grabs and jabs. Even tho foxes aerials have mad lag while he's still in the air, there's hardly any landing lag except for Uair.

 

[Matador]

Well, fox can take on some of the popular characters like MK, Snake, and DDD. fox's Dair does combo into grabs and jabs. Even tho foxes aerials have mad lag while he's still in the air, there's hardly any landing lag except for Uair.

What're the difficulty ratios for those matchups?

Dair combos into jabs maybe, but grabs no. Grabs only connect when the opponent shields the dair or a shield is predicted after the Dair connects.

Nair, Bair, and Fair all have easily punishable landing lag along with Uair. Dair has less, but still punishable. None of these autocancel either.

Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.

 

[Veggi]

What're the difficulty ratios for those matchups?

Dair combos into jabs maybe, but grabs no. Grabs only connect when the opponent shields the dair or a shield is predicted after the Dair connects.

Nair, Bair, and Fair all have easily punishable landing lag along with Uair. Dair has less, but still punishable. None of these autocancel either.

Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.

There's nothing exact, but I think that Fox can do pretty well against Snake and MK. Dedede I wasn't good at playing against with Fox, but I don't know what everyone else thinks about the matchup.

Dair will combo into a jab and then a grab after the jab. Bair and Nair I'm pretty sure auto-cancel, either that or just have very little lag. Fair has the most lag out of them, but still isn't easily punished.

That was one of the most unsure posts I've made in a while.

 

[Matador]

There's nothing exact, but I think that Fox can do pretty well against Snake and MK. Dedede I wasn't good at playing against with Fox, but I don't know what everyone else thinks about the matchup.

I dunno. Those matchups seem to all be against Fox imo. Especially vs MK.

Dair will combo into a jab and then a grab after the jab. Bair and Nair I'm pretty sure auto-cancel, either that or just have very little lag. Fair has the most lag out of them, but still isn't easily punished.

Jab -> grab isn't a sure thing, though Dair -> jab may be; I'll take your word for it.

Nair doesn't autocancel, but actually has bad lag. Bair and Uair, to my surprise, both autocancel.

That was one of the most unsure posts I've made in a while.

It's okay, we all have them

 

[homicidalrapist]

What are you talking about? nair hardly has any lag, you can grab right out of it. surprisingly enough, MK vs. Fox is a 45:55 matchup so it's pretty even and snake vs. fox is 60:40. Fox's attacks aren't that punishable, most of his aerials are hard to punish.

 

[Browny]

snake doesnt care if an attack is punishable or not, his ftilt can punish G&W, MK dsmash on a regular basis what chance does Fox have of making a safe KO lol

 

[Matador]

What are you talking about? nair hardly has any lag, you can grab right out of it. surprisingly enough, MK vs. Fox is a 45:55 matchup so it's pretty even and snake vs. fox is 60:40. Fox's attacks aren't that punishable, most of his aerials are hard to punish.

You guys have threads on those matchups? Like...ones with MKs and Snakes arguing their side as well? If so, a link would be cool.

Nair doesn't have bad lag, no. It just has enough lag to be punished because it doesn't autocancel; ESPECIALLY by Snake or MK.

 

[Onomanic]

Well recently I fought the best Sonic in my town (and one of the very few players... -__-) and he said he hates my Fox. The match up seemed pretty even. I don't laser spam (I hardly use it) and I'm usually comboing. XD It was a fun match (except my fricken side b off the ledge. Screw Bridge of Eldin). I could've won except for the suicide.... Both of us were equally matched in skill (Maybe the Sonic player a bit better) and I wish the stage was neutral. I'll take him on again another day. Watch out, AgentAO, I'm coming back for revenge (eventually...)

 

[Toronto Joe]

i have a hard time playing Sonic, Wario, and MK as Fox........if anyone can help me out vs. Sonic thatd be great

 

[ShadowLink84]

blu it doesn't matter if he is the best sonic in your town.
For one its anecdotal evidence and for another, he may not be that good of a sonic either.

 

[§witch]

Why are you asking for match-up advice here?

 

[§witch]

Mad attack speed

With equally bad ending lag. Can Fox autocancel? His range isn't all that special either. If you factor in Fox's ending lag in comparison to Sonic's, I don't see either having the upper hand here.

Combos well

I disagree. ZSS combos well, Luigi combos well, Diddy combos well. Fox is decent at best. Fox's dair doesn't true combo into anything (though it has many options. it's an excellent move, not taking away from that). All that you could be speaking of is utilt chains which only work on a few. Enlighten me if you disagree.

Dair combos, to jabs, grabs, and nigh perfectly to utilt.

Sonic's better here. He has many more options that produce better results.

Kills very early

With Usmash only, and that gets predictable. Even though the attack is fast, the ending lag is punishable, which isn't good since Fox is combo'd to hell and is KO'd at low %. Usmash kills at low %, true, but it's his only good KO move (to my knowledge). Still, he beats Sonic here pretty easily.

Usmash, fsmash, dsmash, bair, and uair all KO early.

Good recovery

Decent recovery. Good recovery covers good distance AND isn't terribly gimped. Fox only fulfills one of these while Sonic covers both. As an added bonus, Sonic is also better at gimping than Fox.

Sonic does not gimp better than fox, you have obviously never seen a shine spike/off the stage drill shine.

Decent air game

Okay. I can agree with decent.

Overall, does this qualify Fox for middle tier? If you add to the fact that Fox is easily combo'd, KO'd at low %, gimpable recovery, and punishable ending lag on most attacks.
What is this considerable ending lag you seem to think exists?

Wrong on so many levels.

You guys have threads on those matchups? Like...ones with MKs and Snakes arguing their side as well? If so, a link would be cool.

Nair doesn't have bad lag, no. It just has enough lag to be punished because it doesn't autocancel; ESPECIALLY by Snake or MK.

Nair has no lag at all, wtf are you talking about? And yes, it has been spoken about AT the MK/snake boards. You obviously have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

 

[Matador]

Dair doesn't combo into an utilt, nor does it combo into a grab. A jab maybe but the counter in training is becoming less and less accurate the more I use it. Even if these did combo, is that it? Are all of Fox's combos done from Dair? if so, this only proves my point. He's only decent at best.

Fsmash, Dsmash, and Bair do NOT KO early even fresh. I live too long from all 3 attacks with DI for them to be considered good KO moves, especially Fsmash. Uair has pretty good knockback, however even though it's a little situational.

....Fox can only spike if the opponent is right next to the edge and not even remotely above his head, otherwise his edgeguarding is useless. Even if Fox does manage to pull one of these off, shine isn't an "end-all" spike.

His falling speed is too great for him to safely or reliably gimp someone from further away than that. Sonic, on the other hand, has plenty more options, Bair stage spikes, spring gimps, and fair edgeguards among other things. Fox is an example of one of the characters he gimps easily, in fact.

ALL of his aerials have bad ending lag aside from maybe his Nair. Even then, his Nair sure as hell doesn't autocancel; therefore it has lag. It may not be alot of lag, but it's enough to be punished and dangerous to SH.

Read my post dude. I asked IF you guys had a thread where they argued as well. I never accused you of not doing so. I even asked if you had a link. Calm down.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I think the ending lag is being overstated a little, but Fox does NOT have as easy a time gimping as Sonic, not by a long shot.

 

[§witch]

Dair doesn't combo into an utilt, nor does it combo into a grab. A jab maybe but the counter in training is becoming less and less accurate the more I use it. Even if these did combo, is that it? Are all of Fox's combos done from Dair? if so, this only proves my point. He's only decent at best.

Fsmash, Dsmash, and Bair do NOT KO early even fresh. I live too long from all 3 attacks with DI for them to be considered good KO moves, especially Fsmash. Uair has pretty good knockback, however even though it's a little situational.

....Fox can only spike if the opponent is right next to the edge and not even remotely above his head, otherwise his edgeguarding is useless. Even if Fox does manage to pull one of these off, shine isn't an "end-all" spike.

His falling speed is too great for him to safely or reliably gimp someone from further away than that. Sonic, on the other hand, has plenty more options, Bair stage spikes, spring gimps, and fair edgeguards among other things. Fox is an example of one of the characters he gimps easily, in fact.

ALL of his aerials have bad ending lag aside from maybe his Nair. Even then, his Nair sure as hell doesn't autocancel; therefore it has lag. It may not be alot of lag, but it's enough to be punished and dangerous to SH.

Read my post dude. I asked IF you guys had a thread where they argued as well. I never accused you of not doing so. I even asked if you had a link. Calm down.

Why do you assume you know what you're talking about? Sonic's aerials have much more lag than fox's do. You think fox can't gimp well? His fair has a zap jump like property to, fox can recover very well.
Watch this and tell me shine spikes aren't effective for gimping.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aBNY1V0qcg
Also you contradict yourself.
"ALL of his aerials have bad ending lag aside from maybe his Nair. Even then, his Nair sure as hell doesn't autocancel; therefore it has lag. It may not be alot of lag, but it's enough to be punished and dangerous to SH."
None of fox's aerials have bad ending lag, I still don't know where you came to that conclusion. Fox has a FF nair lock, so there can't be considerable landing lag, can there? Nair is very useful to SH, and the furthest thing from dangerous. Fsmash, dsmash and bair all KO early, again where do you figure these things out Mr. mario and sonic main?
Fairly old list of fox's combos.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190160

 

[mariofanpm12]

I still have to wonder why this is in the Fox Boards... Or is it in the Sonic Boards also? I'll check. Maybe this should be in Generak Brawl Discussion so the answers won't be so biased.

 

[§witch]

Some guy made a thread on it for no reason.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Why do you assume you know what you're talking about? Sonic's aerials have much more lag than fox's do.

No lol. You can SH all of Sonic's aerials with no lag aside the dair and the nair which is barely noticable.

What's the point of this thread lol? It's just the 'make claims about Sonic and see them disputed' thread, yeah?

 

[§witch]

Well then, they both have no lag at all then. Uair, and fair are the only aerials of fox fox that have any noticeable lag, and even then it's not very much.

 

[Matador]

Why do you assume you know what you're talking about? Sonic's aerials have much more lag than fox's do. You think fox can't gimp well? His fair has a zap jump like property to, fox can recover very well.

Watch this and tell me shine spikes aren't effective for gimping.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aBNY1V0qcg[/QUOTE] That's a CPU...and a Bowser no less. I'm not denying that Fox CAN gimp, not at all. My claim is that his gimping pales in comparison to Sonic, or DDD, or Mario. He simply can't chase well offstage.

Also you contradict yourself.
"ALL of his aerials have bad ending lag aside from maybe his Nair. Even then, his Nair sure as hell doesn't autocancel; therefore it has lag. It may not be alot of lag, but it's enough to be punished and dangerous to SH."
None of fox's aerials have bad ending lag, I still don't know where you came to that conclusion. Fox has a FF nair lock, so there can't be considerable landing lag, can there?]

Mario's jab lock gives him time to jab, walk forward, then jab again before the opponent can move. Your Nair lock scenario proves nothing, as walking forward and jabbing again is actually quite a bit of time. I also fail to see where I contradict myself, since you don't deny that Nair, in fact, does have lag. That lag is punishable whether you want to see it or not.

Nair is very useful to SH, and the furthest thing from dangerous. Fsmash, dsmash and bair all KO early, again where do you figure these things out Mr. mario and sonic main?
Fairly old list of fox's combos.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190160

lol, if I shieldgrab your nair, you're screwed. If I space myself so that as soon as you land your Nair (which I'd definitely do) I could Fsmash during the lag, it'd be more than possible. Fox's falling speed doesn't allow much movement in the air before he hits the ground either, so DIing out of grab range isn't really as much of an option as others with even worse landing lag.

I figured out that Fsmash, Dsmash, and Bair don't KO early from old fashioned experience. I live much too long for them to be considered good KO moves. Decent at best, with the exception of Fsmash, which I think has low KO potential. And I don't main Sonic.

That list only reinforces what I thought before. Dair combos are all I saw. If all of Fox's combos come from Dair, he's not good at comboing. Characters like ZSS, Luigi, and Diddy get combos from many different attacks, not just banking everything on one attack to start combos. He's average at best.

I'm not a Fox expert, and I don't claim to be. This is all coming from my understanding. If you look from a Sonic point of view, you can see where I'm coming from with my claims.

Edit: I figured this thread was to see which was the more solid character; Fox or Sonic. Whatever the answer, it'll better illustrate where they stand in the roster. Since matchup discussions are far from being completed all around the brawl community, threads like this help get a consensus on both sides for where they stand.

Neither forum (Fox or Sonic) have gotten to this matchup yet. Do you honestly think this thread won't help for a quicker decision?

 

[ShadowLink84]

Dair combos, to jabs, grabs, and nigh perfectly to utilt.

Not true, your opponen t is capable of shielding after the Dair.
Trust me I know, I just got shield grabbed each time.

Usmash, fsmash, dsmash, bair, and uair all KO early.

uair doesn't kill early. The opponent needs to be pretty high up before it kills.

his smashes are the only ones that can claim that the KO early.
and DI screws up the other two.

Sonic does not gimp better than fox, you have obviously never seen a shine spike/off the stage drill shine.

You must be friggin jokig me right?
Sonic can chase of the stage much more easily.
His greater airspeed, is greater options, the quality of his mvoes.
go and try for a drillshine to gimp the opponent,I guarantee you will fail the majority of the time.

 

[§witch]

I wasn't aware that grabs could be sheildgrabbed...And you're very worng about anything after dair being sheildgrabbeble. Scotu has frame data on it.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Obviously I wasn't referring to grabs so your witticism is lost on me.
There is an issue then with the frame data. I was facing a DK and multiple times he was capable of shielding after I landed the Dair.

might I ask how scotu tested for the frame data?

 

[§witch]

What attack was it he sheilded? I can find his thread for you if you'd like. Jab is unsheildedable. Utilt/shine are sheildable with impeccable timing.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I am not too sure, I believe it might have been the jab on one occasion since i had attempted it and I got grabbed before I could jab right as the Dair ended.

I'd have to check.

 

[homicidalrapist]

well... some of the sonics seemed overly biased in this topic. fox's aerials are pretty quick with barely any landing lag cept for uair and fair, but even then it's only a few frames and players don't normally land with these moves. shine spiking can be effective at gimping, although risky on some opponents. dair combos into grab, and jab; there's a very small window to shield utilt. at 90%+, dair starts to trip which can then lead to anything such as a smash. Usmash is an effective killing move since it's quick and can be done out of shield or while running.

In my opinion, Fox and Sonic are even. It just really annoys me when people start to say that my favorite character is just BAD or completely inferior to another character.

 

[Matador]

well... some of the sonics seemed overly biased in this topic.

I'm a Mario main, and so is A2ZOMG. Just thought I'd clear that up.

fox's aerials are pretty quick with barely any landing lag cept for uair and fair, but even then it's only a few frames and players don't normally land with these moves. shine spiking can be effective at gimping, although risky on some opponents. dair combos into grab, and jab; there's a very small window to shield utilt. at 90%+, dair starts to trip which can then lead to anything such as a smash. Usmash is an effective killing move since it's quick and can be done out of shield or while running.

k

In my opinion, Fox and Sonic are even. It just really annoys me when people start to say that my favorite character is just BAD or completely inferior to another character.

It really annoys me when characters are said to be better than they really are. Fox may not fall into this category, but he's certainly close to it. I honestly wanted to see why Fox is seen as > Mario, Sonic, Yoshi, and other characters with matchups just as good as him. I figured I was missing something.

 

[homicidalrapist]

it is possible to main more than one character tho. like i'm a fox/falco/wolf/ganon main. Characters will get better as people will keep experimenting with them, unfortunately mario, sonic, yoshi will stay kinda low because not alot of people are using them thus their metagame will progress slowly. Fox pretty much reached his full metagame quickly so he's a bit higher, as soon as those other characters get more for their metagame, they'll probably move up in the tier list.

I just wanted to clear up that his aerials aren't punishable like how it was said on this topic. i'm not blind to fox's weakness like his weight, gimpable recovery, difficulty gimping half the cast, blaster is only useful against some characters, predictability, sucky reach, ridiculous fastfalling physics and his grabs are meh. ; but he has his good points also like quick killing, ease of punishing, speed, power, some combos, decent air and ground game. Sonic doesn't have alot of weaknesses but he doesn't have the power that fox has.

 

[Matador]

it is possible to main more than one character tho. like i'm a fox/falco/wolf/ganon main.

I main Mario, everyone else is a secondary character.

Characters will get better as people will keep experimenting with them, unfortunately mario, sonic, yoshi will stay kinda low because not alot of people are using them thus their metagame will progress slowly. Fox pretty much reached his full metagame quickly so he's a bit higher, as soon as those other characters get more for their metagame, they'll probably move up in the tier list.

I disagree. I don't believe any character has even come close to their full potential. Fox is placed where he is because of what people see on the surface.

Sonic has low priority, and has difficulty scoring KOs. He also has a relatively high learning curve. Low tier

Mario has a bad recovery because he lost his tornado and can't combo because of Brawl's physics. He also has short range and is KO'd easily. Bottom tier.

Yoshi is Yoshi. He has been for both previous games and doesn't deserve the time of day. He doesn't seem any different from melee, so he stays bottom.

Fox has his Usmash, a good recovery because it goes far, and can "combo". He's also simple to pick up and do pretty well with at casual levels of play. Middle tier.

This is how it is. I wanted a more in-depth look at Fox compared to one of these belittled characters to see why the places aren't switched.

I just wanted to clear up that his aerials aren't punishable like how it was said on this topic. i'm not blind to fox's weakness like his weight, gimpable recovery, difficulty gimping half the cast, blaster is only useful against some characters, predictability, sucky reach, ridiculous fastfalling physics and his grabs are meh. ; but he has his good points also like quick killing, ease of punishing, speed, power, some combos, decent air and ground game. Sonic doesn't have alot of weaknesses but he doesn't have the power that fox has.

No one's denying his strengths, but his weaknesses are equally as heavy. This thead really isn't moving much anymore. I suppose it's run its course.

 

[homicidalrapist]

well.. weaknesses and high learning curves is what makes it interesting to main a character. i mean look at MK and Snake, almost no weaknesses and overplayed, they aren't interesting to play as or against.

 

[Ori_bro]

Fox>Sonic
In every way

completely true even though sonic is a cool character

 

[§witch]

Woah matador, did you say fox is easy to pick up? olololol.

 

[Onomanic]

Woah matador, did you say fox is easy to pick up? olololol.

Fox is really different than he was in Melee so picking him up in Brawl was a bit hard. The utilt lock, dair combos etc. But yeah Fox is hard to pick up XD

 

[homicidalrapist]

i think that all spaceanimals are moderately difficult to learn.

 

[ROOOOY!]

i think that all spaceanimals are moderately difficult to learn.

Wolf is the easiest character to learn to use in the game. Or at least in the top 3 easiest most definately.
Falco's not that hard to learn.
I found Fox easy to learn, but he just feels like he fits my natural playstyle very well so it's probably that.

 

[Matador]

Woah matador, did you say fox is easy to pick up? olololol.

Every character takes mounds of practice at pro levels, but to pick up Fox is infinitely easier than picking up a character like ZSS or Marth. Simple recovery, simple combos, and simple KOs when it comes to difficulty pulling them off. I figured this was common knowledge, he doesn't have much depth.

Edit @ Blu link: In melee, Fox was probably the hardest character to use despite him being the best. Even if he wasn't, he wasn't easier than his Brawl counterpart.

 

[§witch]

Fox has one of the highest learning curves of any character in brawl...

 

[Matador]

Fox has one of the highest learning curves of any character in brawl...

How do you figure? I'm serously lost here.

 

[§witch]

Why do you think he isn't highly used? Hard to use well/properly. He can't just rely on dair combos, therefore, the player must be smart and be used to fox's playstyle.

 

[Matador]

Why do you think he isn't highly used? Hard to use well/properly. He can't just rely on dair combos, therefore, the player must be smart and be used to fox's playstyle.

That can't be right, because Sonic has a rather large amount of people using him and it's widely accepted that he has a high learning curve, same with Marth. No scrub can pick him up and just expect to win.