Is Brawl more balanced than melee? **Take 2**

[Redthorn21]

A casual game that has items/smash balls is more balanced but take away the items and exploding stages then all the C.Falcon players might aswell call it a day as long as dedede's infinate chaingrab and MK are around. In melee we atleast we had some ways to counter fox.

 

[GofG]

Fox isn't even close to being similar to MK. Stop comparing him to MK. It's dumb. It's not like we had "ways of getting around fox."

 

[Grunt]

Gofg, don't you remember? Melee characters were considered viable by whether or not they could be at least soft countered by Fox!
...
oh no you're right.

 

[GofG]

Grunt, I love you. Come to brolove tomorrow. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=211282

 

[Grunt]

Yes, Im going to go from Washington to NC tonight.
XD

 

[GofG]

Hurry Up!!!!!

 

[Redthorn21]

Fox isn't even close to being similar to MK. Stop comparing him to MK. It's dumb. It's not like we had "ways of getting around fox."

Its true they are not similar at all other then being top of the tier lists. MK is alot better then the other characters. WHICH is one of the reasons why brawl is not more balanced then Melee.

Fox is not like MK at all. Fox is evenly ranked with the rest of the higher ranked characters and for the first 3-4 years sheik was the highest rank character. Also WE did have "ways of getting around fox" like fox was easily chaingrabbed. (I can't recall if you could CG in high percentages or not) Fox was also easy to edgeguard plus Jigglypuff was built to kill Fox with some combo using rest.

 

[Noobicidal]

plus Jigglypuff was built to kill Fox with some combo using rest.

U-throw, jump to rest? >.>

Space Animal Slayer

 

[adumbrodeus]

Gofg, don't you remember? Melee characters were considered viable by whether or not they could be at least soft countered by Fox!
...
oh no you're right.

No, it was Marth. After all a character couldn't possibly be the best if he/she/it/potato didn't win every tournament, right? Top of the metagame doesn't matter, only tournament results, am I right?[/sarcasm]


10whyarewetalkingaboutmeleeinthepasttenses

 

[Staco]

I think they are both balanced, and there is no big difference.
The only thing is, that in brawl the noob to pro difference isnt as big as in melee.

 

[Yuna]

I think they are both balanced, and there is no big difference.

Neither game is balanced, actually.

The only thing is, that in brawl the noob to pro difference isnt as big as in melee.

This has no bearing on game balance.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Neither game is balanced, actually.

Depends on what you consider balanced. If you mean every character is viable something I don't believe even the Guilty Gear game(s) did.

I'm not sure since everyone has a different definition of good balance around here.

Fox is not like MK at all. Fox is evenly ranked with the rest of the higher ranked characters and for the first 3-4 years sheik was the highest rank character. Also WE did have "ways of getting around fox" like fox was easily chaingrabbed. (I can't recall if you could CG in high percentages or not) Fox was also easy to edgeguard plus Jigglypuff was built to kill Fox with some combo using rest.

Yoshi, Bowser, and Falco say hi to MK.

 

[Yuna]

Depends on what you consider balanced. If you mean every character is viable something I don't believe even the Guilty Gear game(s) did.

That would be near-perfect balance. Melee and Brawl are overall not balance, at all.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

That would be near-perfect balance. Melee and Brawl are overall not balance, at all.

To Guilty Gear, no.

To other fighting games, depends on which ones.

The original, Melee, and Brawl had some balance to them. More than the big four claim people make of Melee and the MK claim of Brawl.

 

[Fletch]

Fox is not like MK at all. Fox is evenly ranked with the rest of the higher ranked characters and for the first 3-4 years sheik was the highest rank character. Also WE did have "ways of getting around fox" like fox was easily chaingrabbed. (I can't recall if you could CG in high percentages or not) Fox was also easy to edgeguard plus Jigglypuff was built to kill Fox with some combo using rest.

U-throw, jump to rest? >.>

Space Animal Slayer

While Fox definitely has his counters/bad matchups, he absolutely slaughters Jigglypuff, I don't know where people keep getting this idea. Just because Jiggs can u-throw -> rest doesn't mean he has the advantage, Fox kills Jiggs way too early and can camp the hell out of her.

 

[Yuna]

To Guilty Gear, no.

To other fighting games, depends on which ones.

The original, Melee, and Brawl had some balance to them. More than the big four claim people make of Melee and the MK claim of Brawl.

In general, compared to most of the popular fighting game series, Melee and Brawl are both highly imbalanced. They do not compare, at all.

 

[Redthorn21]

While Fox definitely has his counters/bad matchups, he absolutely slaughters Jigglypuff, I don't know where people keep getting this idea. Just because Jiggs can u-throw -> rest doesn't mean he has the advantage, Fox kills Jiggs way too early and can camp the hell out of her.

The famed move Space Animal Slayer where Jiggly deastroys space animals. Thats where most people get the idea that Jiggly is good counter to Fox. This is actully news to me i always assumed Jiggly was a counter to fox giving the history behind the move. Also Jiggly was a good edge guarder and fox was an easier character to edge guard. What your saying does make sense though giving jiggly's slow running speed and being forced to hop giving fox good opportunities to combo and camp.

 

[Fletch]

The famed move Space Animal Slayer where Jiggly deastroys space animals. Thats where most people get the idea that Jiggly is good counter to Fox. This is actully news to me i always assumed Jiggly was a counter to fox giving the history behind the move. Also Jiggly was a good edge guarder and fox was an easier character to edge guard. What your saying does make sense though giving jiggly's slow running speed and being forced to hop giving fox good opportunities to combo and camp.

I understand the Space Animal Slayer, but it's nowhere near enough to make up for the rest of the crap that Fox can pull on Jiggs. According to the best Jiggs player...
Mango Percentage 90-10 Fox

 

[Yuna]

I understand the Space Animal Slayer, but it's nowhere near enough to make up for the rest of the crap that Fox can pull on Jiggs. According to the best Jiggs player...
Mango Percentage 90-10 Fox

Mango must've been high when he said that.

 

[Noobicidal]

While Fox definitely has his counters/bad matchups, he absolutely slaughters Jigglypuff, I don't know where people keep getting this idea. Just because Jiggs can u-throw -> rest doesn't mean he has the advantage, Fox kills Jiggs way too early and can camp the hell out of her.

Agreed. I was just enlightening a previous poster on the name of the combo. SAS doesn't make her 1337 against Fox.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

In general, compared to most of the popular fighting game series, Melee and Brawl are both highly imbalanced. They do not compare, at all.

This is actually not true. Anything made by Capcom is as unbalanced or worse.

 

[RDK]

This is actually not true. Anything made by Capcom is as unbalanced or worse.

So every single Street Fighter game made is unbalanced or worse?

 

[Titanium Dragon]

Easy to learn too, unlike fox who takes conditioning to master. And don't tell me MK is hard to use, because he's not. Just spam your moves. That's all you have to do. Attack fast, attack furiously.

So wouldn't that make MK melee's Shiek, the character who is easy to learn how to use properly and is really good early on because people suck too much to do the really advanced techniques?

I think this whole discussion is pointless and arbitrary at this point. The real question is "how healthy is the metagame", and how to measure the health of a metagame is not even necessarily everyone can agree on.

The only real metric is "How many characters win what percentages of real tournaments?" You could also argue for "Number of banned characters", "Number of characters who never have won a major tournament", and "Number of banned stages".

-Inescapable CG's and some CG's that can't be escaped until certain percentages.

Right. Because, you know, those didn't exist in Melee.

Except for, you know, Shiek. And Ice Climbers. And Fox's waveshine. And...

-Brick wall tactics such as Tornado vs many moves

Because these never existed before. Except for, you know, stuff like the Air Fortress. Or shining. Or half of Marth's moveset.

-Characters strengths are based off natural selection. Character potential is stagnant.

No. This is blatently untrue and is the result of you knowing nothing about either game. Character potential is not stagnant in Brawl, and increases over time at a much faster rate than it is for Melee. Why? Because Brawl is not nearly as fully explored as Melee is.

-MK is dominant over every other character.

Arguable. And so much different from the situation at many points in Melee. Shiek, Marth, Fox... all were seen as the top character at one point in Melee.

-Broken hit boxes that extend greatly beyond physical character

Again, Melee had tons of these. Marth, for example.

-Difficult to get around projectile zoning.

Because SHLing didn't exist in Melee.

-Very little lag in between dodging

Oh no, dodging being a viable strategy? Whatever will we do? There's nothing unbalanced about this.

-Little to no punishment game

No. Just no.

-Biased character development

What is this even supposed to mean?

The reality is that this is a pointless argument. Brawl hasn't been out long enough to really have a good idea for it, and Melee was evolving for years and years. Whenever people point out a problem in Melee, people counter that it is because it has been out for so long. Its all pointless.

Quit arguing about this and play the game. That will give you a far better idea.

 

[gr8ape]

Brawl is just a *******ized version of melee

sure melee had chaingrabs, disjointed hitboxes, guaranteed combos, cheap gimps, but ripping on that is just ripping on melee, and were people having these huge debates (except wobbling i guess) about the melee gameplay? maybe they did, but it sure stopped, because everything was accepted. and the final result? ****ing super smash melee

now if everyone would stfu and just play the game (brawl) with whatever "mistakes" or "defects" it has, then we could REALLY assess the impact of these "defects" on the game, but this process takes time. And of course, youll always have die hard fans and die hard haters. What im trying to say is, play the game like YOU think should be played, while of course obeying tournament rules if one attends them....and he who wins, win. And if youre not happy, stop playing.

 

[Redthorn21]

So wouldn't that make MK melee's Shiek, the character who is easy to learn how to use properly and is really good early on because people suck too much to do the really advanced techniques?

I think this whole discussion is pointless and arbitrary at this point. The real question is "how healthy is the metagame", and how to measure the health of a metagame is not even necessarily everyone can agree on.

The only real metric is "How many characters win what percentages of real tournaments?" You could also argue for "Number of banned characters", "Number of characters who never have won a major tournament", and "Number of banned stages".



Right. Because, you know, those didn't exist in Melee.

Except for, you know, Shiek. And Ice Climbers. And Fox's waveshine. And...



Because these never existed before. Except for, you know, stuff like the Air Fortress. Or shining. Or half of Marth's moveset.



No. This is blatently untrue and is the result of you knowing nothing about either game. Character potential is not stagnant in Brawl, and increases over time at a much faster rate than it is for Melee. Why? Because Brawl is not nearly as fully explored as Melee is.



Arguable. And so much different from the situation at many points in Melee. Shiek, Marth, Fox... all were seen as the top character at one point in Melee.



Again, Melee had tons of these. Marth, for example.



Because SHLing didn't exist in Melee.



Oh no, dodging being a viable strategy? Whatever will we do? There's nothing unbalanced about this.



No. Just no.



What is this even supposed to mean?

The reality is that this is a pointless argument. Brawl hasn't been out long enough to really have a good idea for it, and Melee was evolving for years and years. Whenever people point out a problem in Melee, people counter that it is because it has been out for so long. Its all pointless.

Quit arguing about this and play the game. That will give you a far better idea.

You have some good points; sheik was considered the best character for about three years sinc eshe was easy to learn and pick up like MK. But still based on what we have seen so far MK is the best character and has alot of ground on the others.

As of right now Melee is more balanced but in thw future who knows maybe somebody will find a way to make C.falcon the best player. (although the outlook is not so good) If we want to talk about how balanced the games are based on what we have been so far, why not?

 

[Titanium Dragon]

You have some good points; sheik was considered the best character for about three years sinc eshe was easy to learn and pick up like MK. But still based on what we have seen so far MK is the best character and has alot of ground on the others.

Melee Sheik and Brawl MK are similar in that they are the "most obvious" characters. That said, it is very difficult to say whether MK will fall like Sheik did, but it was hard to say back in the day whether Sheik would fall like Sheik did (though I suspected that it would come eventually at the hands of Fox; it did, but Marth and Falco kind of surprised me).

MK will never be a bad character in Brawl, just as Sheik never was a bad character in melee. But whether he will continue to hold a high level of dominance is not really knowable.

The reality is that there isn't clear evidence that either game is "more balanced" than the other; Melee has tons of issues. We'll probably have a better idea in another six months, but honestly, I think the chances of the first tier list not being a hilarious joke in two years is pretty large.

 

[Grunt]

I had a strange pain in my neck this morning, and the strangest feeling to check this thread.
I think someone said disjointed hitboxes were... bad?
AH! there it goes again.

 

[Skas]

I want to talk about this pedestal everyone places meta knight on, its not like hes immortal; hes just another character in the game which can be beat. The issue about balance is unrelated to the character, in the end it comes down to the player and no two humans think alike so no two players think alike. No one can be equal in what you might say is "Skill level". From predicting to mind games, or just hitting the a button. Another thing about meta knight is what this community has done; by putting meta knight in this pedestal, more non meta knight mainers will be effected psychologically when going up against a meta knight as in "OMG he eez t0p tier **** ballz its meta omga" which throws them off their game since they clearly think that hes a better character then their main.

If we never talk about how meta knight is over powered the world will be a better place
<3

 

[Grunt]

But it doesn't help that the best player also uses the best character.

 

[Fletch]

Mango must've been high when he said that.

I think he was just exaggerating, the point is that the match is definitely quite a bit in Fox's favor.

 

[Staco]

This has no bearing on game balance.

I wanted to say it seems balanced to me. (not perfect, but well done; in much other games like mario kart you can take like 5 bikes out of 50 to win, because the others suck, lol)

And it bears on game balance, because its harder to compare then.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

So every single Street Fighter game made is unbalanced or worse?

Pretty much every single Street Fighter game that people care about/is played competitively, including Super Turbo, Street Fighter 3, Capcom vs SNK 2 and the entire Marvel series. I don't know about Street Fighter 4 yet because it's kind of new, but given Capcom's history I don't expect it to be a whole lot better.

 

[RDK]

Pretty much every single Street Fighter game that people care about/is played competitively, including Super Turbo, Street Fighter 3, Capcom vs SNK 2 and the entire Marvel series. I don't know about Street Fighter 4 yet because it's kind of new, but given Capcom's history I don't expect it to be a whole lot better.

I wasn't actually asking you, because that would imply that I really don't know and actually value your input on the topic.

Any given SF game is more balanced than both Melee or Brawl. What the hell are you talking about?

 

[Radical Dreamer]

Sorry, but that's pretty much false, whether you look at the theory or the results. You don't have to imply that you don't know, because it's pretty obvious that you don't. Maybe the minor Street Fighter games like EX3 are more balanced, but none of the ones that people actually care about are.

 

[pure_awesome]

Pretty much every single Street Fighter game that people care about/is played competitively, including Super Turbo, Street Fighter 3, Capcom vs SNK 2 and the entire Marvel series. I don't know about Street Fighter 4 yet because it's kind of new, but given Capcom's history I don't expect it to be a whole lot better.

Actually, SF4 is looking surprisingly balanced so far. Essentially, Sagat and Zangief are awesome, everyone else is pretty good (varies, obviously), and Claw sucks.Of course, the game hasn't been out that long, and there's tons of people already predicting Dictator and Ryu are going to challenge for top spots, that Boxer and Chun Li will see movement once their new playstyles are adapted to, etc. So take that with a grain of salt, I guess.

Also, I distinctly recall Capcom saying they intentionally try to make certain characters (Read: Ryu) slightly more powerful than the others. Hence why he's high tier in like, every friggin' game*. God, I hate Ryu.

EDIT:
*This is not true. But I still hate Ryu.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

Ryu is actually mid tier in CvS2 and 3S.

 

[pure_awesome]

I actually just remembered that he's middle tier in 3S, yeah. I remembered him being upper in that game, for some reason. I don't follow CvS2 at all, so I'll take your word for it. He's also Low Tier in MvC2, so I'm not entirely sure what the hell I'm talking about. Or who Capcom is talking about, for that matter.

Good catch.

... though I still hate him.


EDIT: Anyway, yeah. SF4, nice and balanced so far. A nice little step up from 3rd stike, with its five-character metagame, or SF2, with... well, Akuma.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

MvC2 isn't a game I'd use for balance. That is a game that was almost literally four characters only.

SF4 looks promising right now, but again it's new.

 

[IrArby]

So wouldn't that make MK melee's Shiek, the character who is easy to learn how to use properly and is really good early on because people suck too much to do the really advanced techniques?


Right. Because, you know, those didn't exist in Melee.

Except for, you know, Shiek. And Ice Climbers. And Fox's waveshine. And...



Because these never existed before. Except for, you know, stuff like the Air Fortress. Or shining. Or half of Marth's moveset.



No. This is blatently untrue and is the result of you knowing nothing about either game. Character potential is not stagnant in Brawl, and increases over time at a much faster rate than it is for Melee. Why? Because Brawl is not nearly as fully explored as Melee is.



Arguable. And so much different from the situation at many points in Melee. Shiek, Marth, Fox... all were seen as the top character at one point in Melee.



Again, Melee had tons of these. Marth, for example.



Because SHLing didn't exist in Melee.



Oh no, dodging being a viable strategy? Whatever will we do? There's nothing unbalanced about this.



No. Just no.



What is this even supposed to mean?

The reality is that this is a pointless argument. Brawl hasn't been out long enough to really have a good idea for it, and Melee was evolving for years and years. Whenever people point out a problem in Melee, people counter that it is because it has been out for so long. Its all pointless.

Quit arguing about this and play the game. That will give you a far better idea.

If there were advanced techniques worth learning people might use them but they don't exist. Its not a matter of we haven't looked hard enough since we've looked harder in 6months of Brawl than at least 2 years of Melee.

As far as Melee Shiek's CG yea it ***** most of the bottom half of the tier list but she still got comboed pretty well just like Fox and Falco (better recovery though). The real problem is her CGs sets up for edgeguards. Stage postioning matters alot more here. Ice Climbers were mostly only viable because of the huge damage you could rack up with a grab. Waveshining people across the stage is a great way to SD if you make a mistake and most foxs usually lead into an upthrow to uair/bair not a back and forth waveshine infinite that no one has pulled off to great success in tournament play. Most of the CGing going on happened to Fox/Falco anyway.

Brick wall tactics? Marth is supposed to be hard to approach but he's 2nd best in the game and his moves still lag more than alot of chars making him vulnerable. Shine has limited reach and is by no means a brickwall move. It hits on ONE frame only. Shieldgrabbing leads to CGs which **** stupid spacies.

Character growth vs. stagnation. Movement in Melee and arguably a more sophisticated Engine allow for greater personalized playing style. People can usually tell M2Ks MK apart from say Azen's but watch two different Snakes and tell me whos playing. Pick any Melee Pro and most people can tell you who it is just by their signature playstlye. Everyone's doing the same things in Brawl since only a few things work (excluding MK and perhaps one or two more chars). Charcter potential rose quickly since we explored it so quickly. The evidence says that there is little left to see.

MK's dominance vs. Fox, Marth, Shiek? MK has been dominant since maybe 1 month into the game. We explored over 2 Melee years equivalent and nothings changed that. No one calls either one of those characters broken since they're all very beatable. MK is less beatable, no johns.

Extended hitboxes? No, Marth had a disjointed hitbox called a SWORD. As I said da SWORD lags. Its beatable. Oh yea half of Snake's moves say hello. Try and find that in Melee cause you won't.

Projectiles? As far as SHL goes (I assume you mean Falco not Fox) being able to punish/edgeguard Falcos to death sorta balances that out. Add to that CGs, waveshielding, Marth's counter, Fox's shine, and some other character specific counters to SHL and you begin to realize its not the end all be all approach you thought.

The punishment game in Brawl is very lacking as combos and edgeguards are both incredibly nerfed thanks to an (idiot proofed) I mean, floaty engine, lack of hitstun, lack of control over movement, and the list goes on. Whats the point of forcing someone to airdodge anymore? I've been saying for a while we should change it to air spot dodge.

you may flame now.

 

[Yuna]

This is actually not true. Anything made by Capcom is as unbalanced or worse.

Capcom is the only maker of Competitive fighting games now since... when?