Is Brawl more balanced than melee? **Take 2**

[CRASHiC]

I can invent a game where every character is tournament worthy. Just give every character a 0-death combo against one other character. Now every character is viable as a counterpick, so the game must be balanced. Right?

They didn't make those. We did. They don't call it 'broken' for nothing you know.

 

[Yuna]

Still, the gaps between the tiers are about the same for each game:
- They both have about 4 characters capable of domination (Fox, Falco, Shiek, and Marth vs. MK, Snake, DDD, and Falco). Don't make a big deal about DDD and Falco being in the same grouping as Meta. Those 2 dominate everyone else better than Meta does and they can compete on an almost equal footing with him as well. 15.3% vs. 10.8%

Wrong. The gaps between the characters in Top and the Top and High are greater than the same gaps in Melee.

-Then Brawl has the advantage here since Melee has 4 characters (Peach, CF, IC, and Jiggly) who are clearly good enough to compete (though not able to win consistently) while Brawl has Marth, R.O.B., G&W, Wario, Olimar, Diddy, Pikachu (?), and Lucario (?) to fill that role. 15.3% vs. 21.6%

If we're gonna count Olimar, Diddy, Pika and Lucario, we might as well count everyone on Melee's tierlist down to Ganondorf. No, that is not how it works.

I ignored the rest of your flawed math. Let's not forget that Brawl has more characters than Melee as well, so having an equal amount of characters in this and that regard doesn't mean it is equally balanced if there's a much greater amount of characters rendered completely unviable or if the gap between every tier below High is just that much greater than the same gap in Melee.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Wrong. The gaps between the characters in Top and the Top and High are greater than the same gaps in Melee.

Explain why there is a bigger gap.

I ignored the rest of your flawed math. Let's not forget that Brawl has more characters than Melee as well, so having an equal amount of characters in this and that regard doesn't mean it is equally balanced if there's a much greater amount of characters rendered completely unviable or if the gap between every tier below High is just that much greater than the same gap in Melee.

You use percentage over numbers when comparing balance in terms of viable characters.

Brawl has six top tiers as of this writing moment, 6/39 = 15.38%

Melee as of the last list released has four top tiers, 4/26 = 15.38%

In all honesty, we can't use the current Brawl list for anything, not all match-ups have been figured out or debated yet. This is the only thing the, it's too early for that list to have any merit. Also the fact the list is old, five months old. Things have changed in the past few months.

 

[Blackshadow]

I'm not going to go through 46 pages just to find out the answer to my question, but has anyone actually mentioned that Brawl has a **** ton of infinites, which are easily pulled off compared to the 1-2 infinites in Melee?

 

[SmashBrother2008]

I hope mods don't close this. I beleive brawl is morre balanced

That sentence made me love you. I'm adding you.

 

[Yuna]

Stuff.

This means jack squat if the gap between Top Tier and High Tier in Brawl is wider than the same gap in Melee and if the gaps between each tier is greater than in Melee, making Bottom Tier so much further removed from Top when compared to Melee.

Guilty Gear XX Accent Core has only two characters in S Tier, which is one tier above Top (A Tier). Does this mean it is automatically less balanced than Brawl? No way in hell.

 

[CRASHiC]

Yuna, Bowser has an almost even match with Metaknight.
end

 

[Yuna]

Yuna, Bowser has an almost even match with Metaknight.
end

A lower tiered character having an almost even match-up against a Top Tier?! ZOMG! This is unheard of! It has never happened before! The mere fact that such a match-up exists means the overall balance of the game must be better than a game for which this is not true!

It's not like there were match-ups like these in Melee!

 

[Fletch]

Yuna, Bowser has an almost even match with Metaknight.
end

CRASHiC, Pikachu (a low tier) has a distinct advantage over Jigglypuff (a high tier) in Melee. Fox and Falco (two top tiers) have lots of questionable matchups from some of the mid and lower tiers due to being easily comboed and chaingrabbed.

This still doesn't prove much.

 

[CRASHiC]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954

I guess that's how Captain Falcon and Sonic got that high, huh? Because of all their bad matchups, being low tier characters?

 

[Yuna]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954

I guess that's how Captain Falcon and Sonic got that high, huh? Because of all their bad matchups, being low tier characters?

You call that high? CF's got only 1 win and 2 Top 8 placings out of how many tournaments in total now? The best players in the world being able to place well with CF against mediocre players =/= Proof of anything. The only reason he's so "high" on the list, comparatively, is because the other characters below him are either not very popular and/or just not very popular among the best players in the world.

If a CF takes Top 8, and even wins a tournament, there were just no competent MKs present to knock him out. Nobody cares what the best in the world can do against people who aren't so good or how well people of lower skill can do against other people of lower skill.

As for Sonic, Sonic's actually got pretty OK match-ups against the higher ups. So all you just proved was how little you know about Sonic's match-ups.

This proves absolutely jack squat, BTW. We have people placing high as low tiers in Melee all the time... when they are wielded by some of the world's best players and facing players who aren't quite as good.

Guess what, it proves nothing.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm not going to go through 46 pages just to find out the answer to my question, but has anyone actually mentioned that Brawl has a **** ton of infinites, which are easily pulled off compared to the 1-2 infinites in Melee?

I'm only counting two non highly situational infinites in Brawl, (Ice Climbers, DDD)

I'm counting two in Melee.

I'm not seeing this **** ton unless your counting wall infinites, which Melee had as well.

This means jack squat if the gap between Top Tier and High Tier in Brawl is wider than the same gap in Melee and if the gaps between each tier is greater than in Melee, making Bottom Tier so much further removed from Top when compared to Melee.

The gap between high and Top isn't far in either game. Peach was quite viable despite her lack of play.

Lucario and Pikachu can both play quite well in Brawl.

Mewtwo may have had ok matchups against Fox and Falco, but he was screwed if he went up against Marth.

Sonic is the same, but Marth and Metaknight still **** him.

This still isn't answering my question of what gap is their between the top, high, and mid. What exactly is making it apparent that those characters in said tier are more usable than another games.

Both games top, high, and mids are seeing play in tournament play, even high play.

Guilty Gear XX Accent Core has only two characters in S Tier, which is one tier above Top (A Tier). Does this mean it is automatically less balanced than Brawl? No way in hell.

I understand this, but this isn't answering my question of, what exactly is making the gap that much bigger in Brawl compared to Melee.

You call that high? CF's got only 1 win and 2 Top 8 placings out of how many tournaments in total now? The best players in the world being able to place well with CF against mediocre players =/= Proof of anything. The only reason he's so "high" on the list, comparatively, is because the other characters below him are either not very popular and/or just not very popular among the best players in the world.

If a CF takes Top 8, and even wins a tournament, there were just no competent MKs present to knock him out. Nobody cares what the best in the world can do against people who aren't so good or how well people of lower skill can do against other people of lower skill.

Just to point out about Captain Falcon. The main reason he got those point well due to Ally seconding him to get 26.5 points or something of the sort.

As for Sonic, Sonic's actually got pretty OK match-ups against the higher ups. So all you just proved was how little you know about Sonic's match-ups.

This proves absolutely jack squat, BTW. We have people placing high as low tiers in Melee all the time... when they are wielded by some of the world's best players and facing players who aren't quite as good.

Guess what, it proves nothing.

This does prove Sonic's current, yet limited to December, results are much better than previous months.

Azen has used lower tiered characters against opponents near his skill level competently, however this doesn't change that he was a better Marth in Melee and a better Lucario in Brawl than everyone else in the cast.

 

[brinboy789]

I'm only counting two non highly situational infinites in Brawl, (Ice Climbers, DDD)

I'm counting two in Melee.

I'm not seeing this **** ton unless your counting wall infinites, which Melee had as well.

wario gets infinited by several chars

 

[Yuna]

I'm not seeing this **** ton unless your counting wall infinites, which Melee had as well.

Melee actually had very few wall infinites.

The gap between high and Top isn't far in either game. Peach was quite viable despite her lack of play.

The gap between Top and in High in Brawl is wider than in Melee, if ever so slightly. But that's not the important part, the gap between what comes after High is wider in Brawl than in Melee. The gap between Top vs. Bottom is a lot wider than in Melee.

This still isn't answering my question of what gap is their between the top, high, and mid. What exactly is making it apparent that those characters in said tier are more usable than another games.

It is my position that the gap is wider. Just look at the individual match-ups of the lower tiered characters.

Both games top, high, and mids are seeing play in tournament play, even high play.

Seeing tournament play =/= Matters

All Competitive fighting games have Tops, Highs and Mids seeing tournament play (and sometimes even high placement), even at the highest level. Doesn't mean anything when it comes to whether the game is more or less balanced than another game which sees very little tournament play from Mids and possibly even Highs.

Just to point out about Captain Falcon. The main reason he got those point well due to Ally seconding him to get 26.5 points or something of the sort.

This is another flaw in the ranking threads, they sometimes count secondaries in the results, even when said secondaries were eventually abandoned for other characters once the players started facing better opponents.

This does prove Sonic's current, yet limited to December, results are much better than previous months.

Tournaments results themselves do not prove anything, especially not with isolated incidents such as those. It's not like Sonic is magically winning and placing high at many, many tournaments.

 

[SmashBrother2008]

You know if you dont even know much about match ups you prolly shouldn't argue none aren't winnable. Characters who can be infinite chain grabbed by D3 lose. It's not even funny, the better player will lose if the enemy uses DDD.

LOL @ that when Melee had wobbling with the Ice Climbers. And what did they do then? Banned it! Then why not ban DDDs grab infinites as well? Isn't it practically the same as wobbling?

 

[metaXzero]

LOL @ that when Melee had wobbling with the Ice Climbers. And what did they do then? Banned it! Then why not ban DDDs grab infinites as well? Isn't it practically the same as wobbling?

Wobbling was NEVER banned in most tourneys. Nor did the SBR vote for banning.

Learn your sh*t.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Melee actually had very few wall infinites.

True, but it still had wall infinites for a few characters.

Fox and Falco could infinite Peach and Link but it was very hard to perform, nor do I think it was attempted due to the technical difficulty of it.

Marth has a death combo on Mewtwo.

Ice Climbers wobble everyone.

Brawl has Ice climbers with death grabs again.

DDD infinitely changrabs DK.

and wall infinites.

The gap between Top and in High in Brawl is wider than in Melee, if ever so slightly. But that's not the important part, the gap between what comes after High is wider in Brawl than in Melee. The gap between Top vs. Bottom is a lot wider than in Melee.

As for bottom in Melee,

Mewtwo and Kirby get ***** by everyone. Pichu could beat the previous and a few others, but still sucked badly. Bowser did horribly against the high and top tiers.

In Brawl,

Captain Falcon and Ganondorf have crappy match-ups like Mewtwo and Kirby.

Link has a few good ones, but still suffers badly to his many bad ones.

Those are the main ones I'm sure of. Not all of the match-ups have been debated and cleared up. Some of them are being disputed among the character boards, even without bias.

It is my position that the gap is wider. Just look at the individual match-ups of the lower tiered characters.

I'm not seeing a difference between Melee's bottom tier and Brawl's. The entire bottom does badly against the top with a few exceptions.

Most of the low gets hard countered by Metaknight with the exception of Yoshi. Which isn't different from the bottom from Melee which had most of the bottom tier getting hard countered as well with the exceptions like Kirby against Shiek.

And again, not all of the match-ups have been agreed upon and/or discussed fully yet.

Seeing tournament play =/= Matters

All Competitive fighting games have Tops, Highs and Mids seeing tournament play (and sometimes even high placement), even at the highest level. Doesn't mean anything when it comes to whether the game is more or less balanced than another game which sees very little tournament play from Mids and possibly even Highs.

Seeing play matters when done consistently. If it can see play consistently at high levels of play then it is viable.

This is another flaw in the ranking threads, they sometimes count secondaries in the results, even when said secondaries were eventually abandoned for other characters once the players started facing better opponents.

The opposite can hold true when people biasly report tournament results so characters used more often weren't reported compared to a character used once, Hobo 11 being a prime example.

Tournaments results themselves do not prove anything, especially not with isolated incidents such as those. It's not like Sonic is magically winning and placing high at many, many tournaments.

For a character with less placings to do better in Ankoku's list, they have to place better at larger tournaments.

This is why Falco and Captain Falcon are beating the characters below them, they placed better at larger tournaments.

 

[Yuna]

Fox and Falco could infinite Peach and Link but it was very hard to perform, nor do I think it was attempted due to the technical difficulty of it.

I'm sorry, did you just claim that Falco had Fox's Shine in Melee? Because Falco cannot infinite anyone, AFAIK, with or without a wall.

Marth has a death combo on Mewtwo.

I'm sorry, "Death combo" = Infinite since when?

Mewtwo and Kirby get ***** by everyone. Pichu could beat the previous and a few others, but still sucked badly. Bowser did horribly against the high and top tiers.

There are different degrees of ****. The Bottoms in Brawl just get ***** much harder than the bottoms in Melee.

I'm not seeing a difference between Melee's bottom tier and Brawl's. The entire bottom does badly against the top with a few exceptions.

We're not disputing whether or not Bottom Tier is indeed pure suck. We're debating whether one Bottom Tier sucks more (compared to the Tops) than another.

Seeing play matters when done consistently. If it can see play consistently at high levels of play then it is viable.

No, not really. People play unviable characters all the time. It also all depends on what you mean by viable. Viable to win tournaments? Viable to place high? Viable to place Top 16 at all?

Seeing play =/= Proof they are viable

This is why Falco and Captain Falcon are beating the characters below them, they placed better at larger tournaments.

Why? Because they're better than all of the characters below them? Not necessarily. They may just be more popular, they might just be more popular among the very best, with at least one Captain Falcon playing at the highest possible level, etc.

Just because a CF has won one tournament (which I very much doubt was large, at least in terms of skill, I mean, you can have 100+ man tournaments have only 2 competent people present), it doesn't mean there's a pattern.

Freak accidents happen.

 

[Banee]

I'm sorry, "Death combo" = Infinite since when?

Come on now, Yuna, you're just splitting hairs here and its doing no one any good. With respect to balance, there is no functional difference between an infinite and a death combo. They both amount to the same thing: A single hit/grab leading to an inevitable and unavoidable stock loss. And, considering the topic is on balance, that is all that matters. His comparison of Marth's death combo on Mewtwo and DDD's infinite grab on DK is valid.

 

[Yuna]

Come on now, Yuna, you're just splitting hairs here and its doing no one any good. With respect to balance, there is no functional difference between an infinite and a death combo.

Combos end. Infinites are infinites because they can continue endlessly and work either anywhere on the stage or every single time in a very specific spot of a stage.

Normal combos are not guaranteed like that. They will eventually end if you run out of stage. And I don't know what the heck he's talking about concerning Marth vs. Mewtwo.

They both amount to the same thing: A single hit/grab leading to an inevitable and unavoidable stock loss. And, considering the topic is on balance, that is all that matters. His comparison of Marth's death combo on Mewtwo and DDD's infinite grab on DK is valid.

D3 can infinite grab DK anywhere on any stage. Marth cannot death combo Mewtwo if the initial hit sends him off stage, out of range for another hit.

 

[metaXzero]

What is this "Death combo" Marth has on Mewtwo?

 

[Yuna]

What is this "Death combo" Marth has on Mewtwo?

To his "defense", he also believes Falco has some kind of (implied: shine-related) infinite on Link and Peach.

 

[Fletch]

What is this "Death combo" Marth has on Mewtwo?

I was going to ask the same thing, I'm pretty sure that Marth doesn't even combo Mewtwo that hard compared to other characters. I'm on a crappy connection here, but I know there are some decently recent matches of Taj's Mewtwo vs. M2K's Marth (two best examples), and I would like whoever claimed these "death combos" exist to show me one in that video because I have no ****ing idea what you're talking about.

EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaC2PWfZJEg

Are you just talking about a basic Ken combo on him? Marth can do that to a lot of characters, and it's DI dependent.

Can I just also point out that "death combos" in Melee are way more balanced because of the engine anyways? Losing a stock in Brawl pretty much means match over, whereas comebacks are at least possible in Melee since there's something called combos.

 

[SmashBrother2008]

Remember, we're talking about Brawl's balance here...

 

[Yuna]

I was going to ask the same thing, I'm pretty sure that Marth doesn't even combo Mewtwo that hard compared to other characters. I'm on a crappy connection here, but I know there are some decently recent matches of Taj's Mewtwo vs. M2K's Marth (two best examples), and I would like whoever claimed these "death combos" exist to show me one in that video because I have no ****ing idea what you're talking about.

It's probably in there somewhere in a combo video together with "Falco['s] infinite [on] Peach and Link".

Remember, we're talking about Brawl's balance here...

When compared to Melee's.

 

[IrArby]

Falco's shine infinite was the shiznit. Just find a spot on the stage with a ceiling 2 feet above Falco's head and unplug your opponents controller so they can't tech or DI out of it when you JCshine them continously up into the cieling. Its d *****.

Btw Yuna I pm'ed you.

 

[Yuna]

Btw Yuna I pm'ed you.

I know you did. A lot of people have assumed I either didn't receive or read their PMs concerning the D3 debate just because I didn't reply to them. I guess it's warranted and I'll just have to suck it up and PM them all back with a generic "Good job! Now bake me a pie!"-esque message.

 

[IrArby]

I don't know that I can bake a pie especially if its got to stay good until it reaches Sweden but I figured you already knew but thought I'd bug you anyway. Its good that a lot of people pm'ed you though. I wonder if the antibans have put anything together. They don't seem crazy on the idea (I wonder why).

Um relevant to the thread. I've thought it all out and the best way to compare the balance of two games is to have KDJ clone himself. Then play his pichu against his cloned self's Fox. See how badly the Pichu loses and contrast that with his loss using C.Falcon to his clone's MK.

Why pick KDJ and not some other pro you ask? Because Ken, or Azen, or M2K have a pretty good idea how they themselves play and would constantly predict their own clones. KDJ pulls out random **** all the time so even KDJ doesn't know what KDJ is gonna do. I know we have a Smash Lab (not exactly sure what they do) but I think they should really get to work on making this happen soon.

 

[RDK]

People think Falco had a shine infinite in Melee? Oh the lulz.

The Space Animals' shines are completely different from one another. An infinite with Falco's reflector is virtually impossible.

 

[Fletch]

I don't know that I can bake a pie especially if its got to stay good until it reaches Sweden but I figured you already knew but thought I'd bug you anyway. Its good that a lot of people pm'ed you though. I wonder if the antibans have put anything together. They don't seem crazy on the idea (I wonder why).

Um relevant to the thread. I've thought it all out and the best way to compare the balance of two games is to have KDJ clone himself. Then play his pichu against his cloned self's Fox. See how badly the Pichu loses and contrast that with his loss using C.Falcon to his clone's MK.

Why pick KDJ and not some other pro you ask? Because Ken, or Azen, or M2K have a pretty good idea how they themselves play and would constantly predict their own clones. KDJ pulls out random **** all the time so even KDJ doesn't know what KDJ is gonna do. I know we have a Smash Lab (not exactly sure what they do) but I think they should really get to work on making this happen soon.

I'd give KDJ's Pichu a shot in the matchup versus his own Fox, his Pichu is nuts.

 

[Alus]

reserved..........

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm sorry, did you just claim that Falco had Fox's Shine in Melee? Because Falco cannot infinite anyone, AFAIK, with or without a wall.

My mistake.

Forgot the snip that out while fixing my post.

I'm sorry, "Death combo" = Infinite since when?

It made a DK vs DDD match-up but worse, is it an infinite? no.

There are different degrees of ****. The Bottoms in Brawl just get ***** much harder than the bottoms in Melee.

Melee's 9-1's vs Brawls 8-2's.

:/

We're not disputing whether or not Bottom Tier is indeed pure suck. We're debating whether one Bottom Tier sucks more (compared to the Tops) than another.

You also realize this is hard to compare when none of the character boards have even gone through every match-up yet.

For you to claim that Brawl's bottom tier gets ***** more, you would have to have someone or something to go off of.

Which you have character guides, and a few match-ups. Other than that it sounds like you have no evidence to this claim.

No, not really. People play unviable characters all the time. It also all depends on what you mean by viable. Viable to win tournaments? Viable to place high? Viable to place Top 16 at all?

Seeing play =/= Proof they are viable

If you can top 16 at a large skill filled tournament, that character is viable.

Why? Because they're better than all of the characters below them? Not necessarily. They may just be more popular, they might just be more popular among the very best, with at least one Captain Falcon playing at the highest possible level, etc.

Just because a CF has won one tournament (which I very much doubt was large, at least in terms of skill, I mean, you can have 100+ man tournaments have only 2 competent people present), it doesn't mean there's a pattern.

Freak accidents happen.

If occurs consistently then the character is viable.

Are you just talking about a basic Ken combo on him? Marth can do that to a lot of characters, and it's DI dependent.

Pretty much, even with Mewtwo's floaty nature, comboing him to a Dair is relatively easy.

edit: Wow, talk about grasping for straws Yuna. You cling to my typo like it's some kind of grand statement to refute any post I make.

Ken Combo, death combo, I didn't know much about Ken or his coined combos when I was playing at Melee tournaments around where I live. Everyone around my area just called it a death combo. Hell I didn't even know of Smash boards until Brawl came out.

 

[Yuna]

My mistake.

Forgot the snip that out while fixing my post.

More like you really believed in what you said and now you're backtracking.

It made a DK vs DDD match-up but worse, is it an infinite? no.

Marth has no 0-death combo on Mewtwo. No such thing exists to make the Marth vs. Mewtwo match-up worse than DK vs. D3. Also, how could you possibly think that?!

Melee's 9-1's vs Brawls 8-2's.

Are you saying the Top Tier of Brawl, at worst, 80-20s the Bottom Tiers? And it's not like Melee's Bottom Tier were filled with 90-10s.

You also realize this is hard to compare when none of the character boards have even gone through every match-up yet.

Either you have to go with "It's too early to tell" or you argue what is known insofar and your own impressions. You can't have it both ways. You cannot argue that Brawl is more balanced than Melee, that Brawl's Bottom Tier only gets 80-20:ed by the top and then suddenly go "Not every match-up has been determined".

Either pick "It's too early" or stick to your argument.

If you can top 16 at a large skill filled tournament, that character is viable.

Consistently and against the best players in the world.

If occurs consistently then the character is viable.

I'm sorry, which low tiers in Brawl are consistently placing high at large tournaments featuring many of the world's best players again?

Pretty much, even with Mewtwo's floaty nature, comboing him to a Dair is relatively easy.

The Ken combo is not guaranteed from anywhere on the stage. It is situational, it requires you to DI the wrong way at times and it's not magically much more effective against Mewtwo than against anyone else in the game, really.

edit: Wow, talk about grasping for straws Yuna. You cling to my typo like it's some kind of grand statement to refute any post I make.

"and Falco" = typo?

Ken Combo, death combo, I didn't know much about Ken or his coined combos when I was playing at Melee tournaments around where I live. Everyone around my area just called it a death combo. Hell I didn't even know of Smash boards until Brawl came out.

Everyone in your area is stupid. It doesn't even kill at lower percentages. It doesn't inflict a truckload of damage, so you can't 0-death people. You have to start out at mid-percentages. More importantly, it didn't magically dictate the entire outcome of the Mewtwo vs. Marth match-up and in no way does it make Mewtwo vs. Marth worse than DK vs. D3.

Calling it a "death combo" is the equivalent of calling any combo that ends with a strong attack a death combo.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

More like you really believed in what you said and now you're backtracking.

I was going to go on about pillaring but then stopped and I realised, although it is hard shield pressure it isn't an infinite in terms of damage, so I backtracked missing the Falco part.

Quit trying to cling onto my typo.

Marth has no 0-death combo on Mewtwo. No such thing exists to make the Marth vs. Mewtwo match-up worse than DK vs. D3. Also, how could you possibly think that?!

Marth's Grab game with priority outdo Mewtwo tenfold.

Are you saying the Top Tier of Brawl, at worst, 80-20s the Bottom Tiers? And it's not like Melee's Bottom Tier were filled with 90-10s.

Yes. Because even Captain Falcon vs MK, he still has options to fight his near impossible battle.

Either you have to go with "It's too early to tell" or you argue what is known insofar and your own impressions. You can't have it both ways. You cannot argue that Brawl is more balanced than Melee, that Brawl's Bottom Tier only gets 80-20:ed by the top and then suddenly go "Not every match-up has been determined".

Either pick "It's too early" or stick to your argument.

If you looked at the character boards for five seconds you could see that they have done most of the top tiers already, except Jigglypuff boards who have only done three/four match-ups.

Link boards on the other hand have done many more match-ups, thus I could compare. The problem lies in the fact none of the boards have done every match-up.

It would be correct for me to say, thus far Link looks like link has better match-ups than Pichu if at worst he were to have 6-4's or something of the sort.

I'm saying thus far, the bottom isn't looking that bad.

With the excpetion of Captain Falcon and Ganondorf, none of the bottom tier appears to fair as bad as Melee's bottom tier.

Consistently and against the best players in the world.

No duh.

I'm sorry, which low tiers in Brawl are consistently placing high at large tournaments featuring many of the world's best players again?

And I made this claim when?

The Ken combo is not guaranteed from anywhere on the stage. It is situational, it requires you to DI the wrong way at times and it's not magically much more effective against Mewtwo than against anyone else in the game, really.

I'm pretty sure Mewtwo won't recover from a tipped Dair.

"and Falco" = typo?

You honestly can't tell you haven't erased parts of your post while missing some parts.

Everyone in your area is stupid. It doesn't even kill at lower percentages. It doesn't inflict a truckload of damage, so you can't 0-death people. You have to start out at mid-percentages. More importantly, it didn't magically dictate the entire outcome of the Mewtwo vs. Marth match-up and in no way does it make Mewtwo vs. Marth worse than DK vs. D3.

I've seen people be able to do it easily around the 20-40 area.

and yes this isn't the only reason, Marth's Range on his grabs and attacks are what destroy Mewtwo.

Edit: And you still haven't shown why bottom in Brawl sucks more.

 

[IrArby]

Uh RedRyu . . . I could easily find vids of Taj's Mewto owning good Marth's. According to every ProBan in the D3 Infinite thread a complete Scub/Noob/whateverderogatorytermfora****typlayeryoulike can beat a great DK with D3 and his chaingrab. Pro/Anti Ban aside, bottom tier matches against the top tiers in Melee are much more plausible.

Pichu, has effective combos on the Spacies and this game actually allows them to punish, combo, and edgeguard. You can make players pay more for mistakes in Melee. Is C.Falcon really going to punish MK badly (either for a significant % or put him in a plausible KO postion) if he messes up his spacing? NO. Combos don't even it out. Bottom tiers have nothing in Brawl.

 

[Yuna]

I was going to go on about pillaring but then stopped and I realised, although it is hard shield pressure it isn't an infinite in terms of damage, so I backtracked missing the Falco part.

Yes, it's not even a combo.

Quit trying to cling onto my typo.

It's not a typo. It was you calling something something it is not. That is not a typo. That is misspeaking (mistyping in this case).

Marth's Grab game with priority outdo Mewtwo tenfold.

Yes, Marth vs. Mewtwo is a highly disadvantaged match-up. Nobody is denying this. It is, however, not worse than DK vs. D3.

Yes. Because even Captain Falcon vs MK, he still has options to fight his near impossible battle.

As opposed to in Melee where many of the Bottom Tiers could actually chaingrab and just combo the hell out of Fox and Falco?

If you looked at the character boards for five seconds you could see that they have done most of the top tiers already, except Jigglypuff boards who have only done three/four match-ups.

"You also realize this is hard to compare when none of the character boards have even gone through every match-up yet."

You were implying it was too early to tell the gaps between the tiers. Now you're saying it's not. You can't have your strawman and eat it.

Link boards on the other hand have done many more match-ups, thus I could compare. The problem lies in the fact none of the boards have done every match-up.

We were specifically discussing the distances between each tier.

It would be correct for me to say, thus far Link looks like link has better match-ups than Pichu if at worst he were to have 6-4's or something of the sort.

Link having, at worst 60-40? That's some highly biased BS right there. Also, Brawl's match-ups are just wonky sometimes and the tier list is far from entirely accurate. If Link has, at worst, 60-40s, no matter if he loses almost every single one of his match-ups, he should not be bottom tier.

So either the Link players are highly biased or the tier list is completely off.

With the excpetion of Captain Falcon and Ganondorf, none of the bottom tier appears to fair as bad as Melee's bottom tier.

Who happened to actually not suffer that bad match-ups against many of the Tops and Highs. 90-10 were exceedingly rare, 80-20s were less rare, but still rare.

It wasn't 90-10 heaven, as you seem to believe.

And I made this claim when?

You: "This is why Falco and Captain Falcon are beating the characters below them, they placed better at larger tournaments."
Me: "Why? Because they're better than all of the characters below them? Not necessarily. They may just be more popular, they might just be more popular among the very best, with at least one Captain Falcon playing at the highest possible level, etc. Just because a CF has won one tournament (which I very much doubt was large, at least in terms of skill, I mean, you can have 100+ man tournaments have only 2 competent people present), it doesn't mean there's a pattern. Freak accidents happen."
You: If occurs consistently then the character is viable.

We were specifically speaking about Captain Falcon (in part) and his placements. You then were implying that Captain Falcon was viable. Don't go off-topic and bring in irrelevant facts when replying to a direct quote with something that apparently has nothing to do with what is quoted.

I'm pretty sure Mewtwo won't recover from a tipped Dair.

At 0%? At 20%? At 30%? At 40%? It does not kill at 0%. In fact, I'm pretty sure it doesn't even necessarily kill at 40%. Mewtwo happens to have one mighty 2nd jump and Up B. As long as he doesn't outright die from it, he could quite conceivably make it back.

You honestly can't tell you haven't erased parts of your post while missing some parts.

This sentence makes no sense. Are you saying you erased some parts of your posts while missing others? Or that I have? Or do you mean to say "You're honestly telling me have never erased..."?

And that's some mighty screw up to end up with a sentence in essence reading (and I paraphrase because I'm too lazy to go back and quote it):
"Fox and Falco can both infinite Peach and Link".

What the heck did you originally write about Falco, anyway?

I've seen people be able to do it easily around the 20-40 area.

Did they even attempt to recover after eating the Dair? Was the name of the stage they were playing on "Yoshi's Story" and they got Daired relatively far down (stage-level or below-ish)?

I've seen people die from Peach's fthrow on Final Destination at 115%. Needless to say, they sucked.

and yes this isn't the only reason, Marth's Range on his grabs and attacks are what destroy Mewtwo.

It's not worse than DK vs. D3.

Edit: And you still haven't shown why bottom in Brawl sucks more.

Finally, a valid argument.

I'll tell you this, your impressions of how badly the Bottom Tiers in Melee and how not-so-badly the Bottom Tiers in Brawl are grossly incorrect. Kirby gets ***** by everyone? If by everyone, you mean three characters (only two of whom are Top Tier).

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Uh RedRyu . . . I could easily find vids of Taj's Mewto owning good Marth's. According to every ProBan in the D3 Infinite thread a complete Scub/Noob/whateverderogatorytermfora****typlayeryoulike can beat a great DK with D3 and his chaingrab. Pro/Anti Ban aside, bottom tier matches against the top tiers in Melee are much more plausible.

Pichu, has effective combos on the Spacies and this game actually allows them to punish, combo, and edgeguard. You can make players pay more for mistakes in Melee. Is C.Falcon really going to punish MK badly (either for a significant % or put him in a plausible KO postion) if he messes up his spacing? NO. Combos don't even it out. Bottom tiers have nothing in Brawl.

Taj is the only player I know of that could effectivly use M2 at high levels of play, even then he couldn't beat the likes of Azen, M2K, and Ken.

Captain Falcon has been used by Ally, although I have no clue to what extent since he was seconded.

Edit: Hasn't Reflex been able to use Captain Falcon well?

 

[Fletch]

I've seen people be able to do it easily around the 20-40 area.

and yes this isn't the only reason, Marth's Range on his grabs and attacks are what destroy Mewtwo.

Yuna addressed most of this, but this is completely wrong. With Mewtwo's 2nd jump and recovery, he's actually least affected by Marth's "death combo" as you call it. The ones that are actually most affected by it are Fox, Falco, and CF, who are all top/high tiers...

 

[IrArby]

Taj isn't the only really good M2 but the point is the character potential was there. It is meant to discredit you Marth owns M2 more than Brawl top tiers on bottom ones. Additionally, when Taj played the likes of Azen, M2K, and Ken, he usually went Marth and lost. Not saying he's bad but he isn't one of the elite Melee smashers so he may not have taken M2 all the way to the heights of his potential play.

Additionally, you pointed out the Marth M2 matchup as a particularly bad one. Azen, M2K, and Ken all play Marth so why would Taj continue playing a bad mathcup against the world's best players. Taj couldn't beat them using the same character so the fact that his disadvantaged M2 couldn't beat them doesn't prove anything. As I said, Taj beat good Marths with his M2 in a very disadvantageous mathcup. Great DKs reportedly can't beat scrub D3s so long as they can do the infinite. So the comparisson goes:

Nearly Absolute Scrub D3s crush Great DKs (Brawl)

Great Marths (the best in fact) crush Great M2s (Melee)

D3 vs. DK is a Top Tier vs. a High Tier

Marth vs. Mewto is a Top Tier vs. Bottom Tier (2nd from the top vs. 2nd from the bottom)

and DK still gets ***** worse. I can't make the comparrison any plainer. I would drop this one and try another matchup.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yuna addressed most of this, but this is completely wrong. With Mewtwo's 2nd jump and recovery, he's actually least affected by Marth's "death combo" as you call it. The ones that are actually most affected by it are Fox, Falco, and CF, who are all top/high tiers...

Marth can still edgehog if M2 tries to Teleport to the ledge.

And this isn't the main reason it's bad for M2, it's Marth's range and priority mostly.

Taj isn't the only really good M2 but the point is the character potential was there. It is meant to discredit you Marth owns M2 more than Brawl top tiers on bottom ones. Additionally, when Taj played the likes of Azen, M2K, and Ken, he usually went Marth and lost. Not saying he's bad but he isn't one of the elite Melee smashers so he may not have taken M2 all the way to the heights of his potential play.

Additionally, you pointed out the Marth M2 matchup as a particularly bad one. Azen, M2K, and Ken all play Marth so why would Taj continue playing a bad mathcup against the world's best players. Taj couldn't beat them using the same character so the fact that his disadvantaged M2 couldn't beat them doesn't prove anything. As I said, Taj beat good Marths with his M2 in a very disadvantageous mathcup. Great DKs reportedly can't beat scrub D3s so long as they can do the infinite. So the comparisson goes:

Nearly Absolute Scrub D3s crush Great DKs (Brawl)

Great Marths (the best in fact) crush Great M2s (Melee)

D3 vs. DK is a Top Tier vs. a High Tier

Marth vs. Mewto is a Top Tier vs. Bottom Tier (2nd from the top vs. 2nd from the bottom)

and DK still gets ***** worse. I can't make the comparrison any plainer. I would drop this one and try another matchup.

The difference is the only godly DK, Bum, plays in a aera where the infinite is banned. The people claiming bad DDD's will win are stating theory not what has happened in a tournament scene.

I've seen one video of a DDD vs DK in a tournament was the DDD was screwing up the infinite.

Also Tiers don't define necessary balance.

In Melee Peach High tier vs Ice Climbers high tier was bad as well.