Is All-Brawl the future competitive standard?

[Dark Sonic]

The problem is not that items are random, or that it lets noobs win over pros.

It's just that we want to get rid of that little chance of a major ****-up.

Actually, the problem is that they're random.

They spawn at semi random times at semi random locations (they spawn in loose intervals at one of many spawn points on the map), meaning that no matter how well you control the stage, there is still the possibility that a powerful item will spawn right in the hands of your opponent.

That is simply unfair by definition, and thus removed for the sake of fairness. And if two players really want to play an items match...they can. They can modify the rules any way they want, as long as they agree on it. But when they can't agree on a ruleset, the defualt is the tournament ruleset (most TOs go with the SBR's ruleset), for the sake of fairness and equality.

 

[MarKO X]

Actually, the problem is that they're random.

They spawn at semi random times at semi random locations (they spawn in loose intervals at one of many spawn points on the map), meaning that no matter how well you control the stage, there is still the possibility that a powerful item will spawn right in the hands of your opponent.

That is simply unfair by definition, and thus removed for the sake of fairness. And if two players really want to play an items match...they can. They can modify the rules any way they want, as long as they agree on it. But when they can't agree on a ruleset, the defualt is the tournament ruleset (most TOs go with the SBR's ruleset), for the sake of fairness and equality.

Just out of curiousity... are you saying that in a tourney match, if the two opponents agree on playing with a Smash Ball in their set, they can do that?

 

[ph00tbag]

Just out of curiousity... are you saying that in a tourney match, if the two opponents agree on playing with a Smash Ball in their set, they can do that?

I believe that this is the spirit of the rules. Very rarely do two competitors take this route, though.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Just out of curiousity... are you saying that in a tourney match, if the two opponents agree on playing with a Smash Ball in their set, they can do that?

Yes, yes they can. They just have to be aware that the winner of the match really is the winner, and will be the one moving on to the next round in the braket.

Heck, if they want to play coin battle on brinstar depths with bombombs and pokeballs, they can do it. But at the end when a winner is decided...no Johns!.

 

[XienZo]

If only you can get rid of the time limit...

 

[.selebu]

Just take this match: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kI4bdWtJu4

Look at how AZ takes 43% just because of that Nintendoscope
After that Forward did a nair and he had the control over the map,
thus he could get all the items on the stage, completing the dragoon and getting a 0% kill
items will always favor the player in control of the map and making it much easier to keep that control
the other player will have a much harder time to regain control with items than without items
thats just unfair and unbalancing

also notice how in the intire set they only picked neutral stages

 

[Dark Sonic]

If only you can get rid of the time limit...

Well, then you'd be stalling the tournament. But you could lower the time limit if you want.

 

[XienZo]

Just take this match: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kI4bdWtJu4

Look at how AZ takes 43% just because of that Nintendoscope
After that Forward did a nair and he had the control over the map,
thus he could get all the items on the stage, completing the dragoon and getting a 0% kill
items will always favor the player in control of the map and making it much easier to keep that control
the other player will have a much harder time to regain control with items than without items
thats just unfair and unbalancing

also notice how in the intire set they only picked neutral stages

Wow, as a former noob, I'm surprised that diddy couldn't get out. You don't smash DI TOWARDS HIM! You DI up and jump ASAP.

 

[Vulcan55]

Just take this match: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kI4bdWtJu4

Look at how AZ takes 43% just because of that Nintendoscope
After that Forward did a nair and he had the control over the map,
thus he could get all the items on the stage, completing the dragoon and getting a 0% kill
items will always favor the player in control of the map and making it much easier to keep that control
the other player will have a much harder time to regain control with items than without items
thats just unfair and unbalancing

also notice how in the intire set they only picked neutral stages

At least you can tell they are good at the game at all.

 

[Plum]

People need to consider the fact that in no way would this replace Brawl.
It would be something that the tournaments hold on a smaller scale while the official tournaments take place with the rules we come up with.
It would be like Melee 2.0 or Brawl +, whatever you want to call it. Something for those people who want to have some fun outside of the main event.
I would join if I saw this. With all items on and no stage bans would it really be meant to be taken too seriously? Just relax and have some fun with Brawl in its most pure form.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Wow, as a former noob, I'm surprised that diddy couldn't get out. You don't smash DI TOWARDS HIM! You DI up and jump ASAP.

Actually, if you watch a match I had with Delta Punk, he DI'd into me and through me incredibly quickly. I was pretty much fooling around trying to figure out the DI's (I was trying to Smash DI at 10 degrees on the control stick and 350 degrees on the C-Stick, at alternating intervals). It didn't work and I deserved what happened.

I was also fooling around with the super scope trying to see if NOT having a set pattern of dodges would work, however, the application of the super scope I have since learned in instantaneous, so if Forward saw my shield and hit the A button, then it would hit my shield (IE there is no way to react, at least this is how I believe it functions). I should have just continually dodges or tried to edge stall.

This was the first time I played with items since the first week of Brawls release, so a lot of what I did was based off of Melee/videos of item play/playing items the first week of Brawl with my gf, I was using a lot of matches just to experiment and get information for the later rounds. For the Finals I was still experimenting, you never know if that same item will spawn again, better to learn than to not.

 

[Animeko]

uh...Animeiko = Keits?

Honestly I thought someone would ask that sooner. No, I'm not Keits. I know him more intimately than most though.

Keits continued to claim over and over again that we're "stripping down the game,"

That's not a claim, that's a fact.

Brawl in its raw form includes items and a wide range of stages. Even before Brawl was released in the states, the majority of this community wanted to ban a laundry list of things: smash balls, dragoon, curry, 75m, Mario Bros., WarioWare, Inc. ...someone even suggested re-programming the game to exclude tripping.

In theory, these elements appear threateningly "unfair" and "random". But misconceptions lead to bans, not testing, not experimenting. Now people talk about banning Metaknight, because he's so good it's "unfair".

Keits antagonized and instigated a community that is far larger than his own, so what did he expect to happen? I do not condone the actions of those SWF members, but don't make Keits out to be some sort of saint in this issue.

I have only seen Keits antagonize people who make stupid arguments and troll. Far larger? In amount of trolls, perhaps. But everyone antagonizes trolls, so whatever.

While I can't say what Keits expected, I can say that I expected a lot better out of the Smash community. Take EVO, for example. After the Brawl rules were announced, I expected ballsy Smashers to fly out and prove they could still win despite having to fight against items and stages in addition to their opponents. Instead, players boycotted EVO, or in my opinion, totally pussied out. THEN the community went on to dismiss CPU's clear win. (Clear win as based off how well he placed in the brackets. I wasn't there to see it IRL). I didn't think the Smash community could be so immature. Keits is no saint, but is he going out of his way to message you this garbage? This is from seven hours ago on youtube:

keits sucks at smash bros. the only reason why he wants items is cuz he cant win by skill. to all noobs. YOU CANNOT DEFEND ITEMS BY SAYING THEY DONT TAKE LUCK. YOU KNOW THEY DO BUT JUST WONT ADMIT IT. keit actually played like ****. the match was boring aas ****. keit also knows jack **** about this game

May I remind you all, THIS IS A VIDEO GAME.

I agree, these personal flames on both sides are silly, childish, and unnecessary. If you refuse to ever try this way of playing, then don't, and leave it alone. If you try it, don't like it, that's fine as well.

 

[ftl]

In theory, these elements appear threateningly "unfair" and "random".

They ARE random. There fact that which item spawns is random is not a misconception, it's a fact. There's no way around that. You're not helping your case by trying to deny it.

Now people talk about banning Metaknight, because he's so good it's "unfair".

Though I cannot read the minds of the SBR, I can predict with pretty high confidence that that is NOT reason for a Metaknight ban, if it happens.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

While I can't say what Keits expected, I can say that I expected a lot better out of the Smash community. Take EVO, for example. After the Brawl rules were announced, I expected ballsy Smashers to fly out and prove they could still win despite having to fight against items and stages in addition to their opponents. Instead, players boycotted EVO, or in my opinion, totally pussied out. THEN the community went on to dismiss CPU's clear win. (Clear win as based off how well he placed in the brackets. I wasn't there to see it IRL). I didn't think the Smash community could be so immature.

Oh, please. EVO decides to run with a ruleset that's more or less a spit in the eye to the competitive Smash community, and you're blaming the latter for how it turned out?

 

[Animeko]

They ARE random. There fact that which item spawns is random is not a misconception, it's a fact. There's no way around that. You're not helping your case by trying to deny it.

Where and when (precisely what second) items spawn is certainly random. I'm not denying that at all. However, the result of an item spawn is totally up to the players, their skill level, even the stage itself.

To me, the only truly random items are pokeballs, assist trophies, and capsule types. I say that because prior to opening, it is unknown as to whether or not the item will assist you. These items are included in All-Brawl because at the moment, no one has proved that they are broken and allow for an automatic first place in a tournament.

-- Whether or not a capsule/crate/party ball will explode is irrelevant- a player shouldn't be attacking them anyway.

 

[Animeko]

Oh, please. EVO decides to run with a ruleset that's more or less a spit in the eye to the competitive Smash community, and you're blaming the latter for how it turned out?

Both sides, items-on and items-off argued as to what rules should be used in the EVO Brawl Tournament. The result was a compromise between the two communities. The Smash community was certainly taken into consideration, as it is today. What I mean is, I wouldn't expect items to make an appearance at EVO this coming year.

 

[Animeko]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlAlitRBYqs

Oh and here's the video you guys meant to post... sooo stupid.

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

While I can't say what Keits expected, I can say that I expected a lot better out of the Smash community. Take EVO, for example. After the Brawl rules were announced, I expected ballsy Smashers to fly out and prove they could still win despite having to fight against items and stages in addition to their opponents. Instead, players boycotted EVO, or in my opinion, totally pussied out. THEN the community went on to dismiss CPU's clear win. (Clear win as based off how well he placed in the brackets. I wasn't there to see it IRL). I didn't think the Smash community could be so immature. Keits is no saint, but is he going out of his way to message you this garbage? This is from seven hours ago on youtube:

Why would you expect that? I think the people here made their position on items quite clear. Let's be honest here, did you really think they'd travel all that way just to play with a ruleset they don't even like?

Anyways, I don't really see the point of all this items business. None of Brawl's problems really have anything to do with items in the first place. Items on Brawl is just the same old Brawl with more throwing/shooting, and a bit of luck added as well. Still, I suppose if it's his tournament, it's his call. But there's no reason for anyone being ashamed of not going to it if they don't want to.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Why would you expect that? I think the people here made their position on items quite clear. Let's be honest here, did you really think they'd travel all that way just to play with a ruleset they don't even like?

Anyways, I don't really see the point of all this items business. None of Brawl's problems really have anything to do with items in the first place. Items on Brawl is just the same old Brawl with more throwing/shooting, and a bit of luck added as well. Still, I suppose if it's his tournament, it's his call. But there's no reason for anyone being ashamed of not going to it if they don't want to.

Lot's of people hate planking/ledgecamping and want it banned. Even M2k. There's threads on the boards. Ledgecamping is less viable with items in play. Food for thought.

 

[Animeko]

Let's be honest here, did you really think they'd travel all that way just to play with a ruleset they don't even like?

When you put it that way, I can understand, especially since Melee was not offered as an alternative. (Though it's not like EVO has a ton of time to run another game.) Still, if I thought I was seriously a god at Brawl I would have entered anyway, just to prove it.

Anyways, I don't really see the point of all this items business.

It's fun. :D

None of Brawl's problems really have anything to do with items in the first place.

Just curious... what do you think are Brawl's problems?

 

[TK Wolf]

One difference I'd like to point out between the SRK and the smash communities. SRK is used to being supported by the people that make the games they play. Street Fighter, Guilty Gear, MvC, etc, are all made as competitive fighting games and have such support from the creators of the game. SRK can trust that the people behind games like SF4, for example, are doing everything they can to make the game deep and balanced.

Smash isn't like that. We are not supported by Nintendo. In fact, they're intentionally working against us in many ways. Smash is a game that is casual with the potential to be competitive. But we as a community needed to sort out what does and doesn't fit in a competitive environment. Unlike, SRK, we don't have the luxury of trusting in the developers of the Smash series. It's far more apparent in brawl with some of the idiotic things they did this time around. (Smashes that are faster and stronger than jabs, spotdodges that have almost 10 times more invulnerability frames than vulnerability frames).

Basically, smash is aimed at a casual audience with many unbalanced features, but thankfully, there's the option to pick and chose things like stages and items. To take a game that, with all its features is so clearly aimed at a casual unbalanced chaotic experience (4 players with items on mario bros stage), is turning a blind eye to the fact that some decisions can and need to be made from the competitive community to give the game any chance of being truly competitive and having any significant depth/balance.

So yes, we made the taboo step of acting like we know better than the people who made the game, because quite honestly... we do....

 

[Kitamerby]

I say this could be a fun side tourney and should be available everywhere for 2 bucks.

After that, they have another side tourney, but MK only on Smashville. :D

This way, everyone wins.

 

[ph00tbag]

Brawl in its raw form includes items

I say again; Prove it. I'll say for my part I know several people who never attend tournaments, but who play through the game specifically to get the item switch. Is their raw form of the game a Smash with items?

 

[DKKountry]

Ledgecamping is less viable with items in play. Food for thought.

Just because you have one example of items negating something that competetive smahsers don't generally like, doesn't mean that items suddenly make sense. Nobody wants three warpstars in a row spawning next to their opponent when people are playing for money, and a truly competetive player would not want to win by way of sheer luck either.

The more competetive and serious you are about your raw Smash skills, the less of a role you will want luck to play in your win or loss. It's that simple, take it or leave it.

 

[ftl]

Where and when (precisely what second) items spawn is certainly random. I'm not denying that at all. However, the result of an item spawn is totally up to the players, their skill level, even the stage itself.

And WHICH item happened to spawn. If I predict when an item's gonna spawn, get my opponent off the stage, get control of the stage... ...and then how useful that was depends not only on me and my opponent, but also the luck of the random number generator. If I get a golden hammer or a smashball - well then my success in getting that item might just win me that stock entirely. If it's, say, a piece of food - well, all that successful work to get that item ended up not mattering. And, over the course of a game, the sequence of items spawns can definitely end up helping one player or the other, if they go back and forth in who gets items.

To me, the only truly random items are pokeballs, assist trophies, and capsule types. I say that because prior to opening, it is unknown as to whether or not the item will assist you. These items are included in All-Brawl because at the moment, no one has proved that they are broken and allow for an automatic first place in a tournament.

They won't ever allow for an automatic first place, because they're too random to depend on. They might sometimes change an entire match, but it's not possible to ride them for however many matches it takes to win a tournament.

[quote
-- Whether or not a capsule/crate/party ball will explode is irrelevant- a player shouldn't be attacking them anyway.[/QUOTE]

And yet what if they do? Again, there's an obvious asymmetry - I can do something and not get punished at all for it, my opponent can do the same thing and get KOed. One of us got lucky and one of us didn't.

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

When you put it that way, I can understand, especially since Melee was not offered as an alternative. (Though it's not like EVO has a ton of time to run another game.) Still, if I thought I was seriously a god at Brawl I would have entered anyway, just to prove it.



It's fun. :D



Just curious... what do you think are Brawl's problems?

Well it seems to me that the thing that is driving players away from Brawl and back to Melee is the lack of hitstun, lag reducing techniques (sffling), and reduced movement speed (with wavedashing gone). The gameplay much more rigid than melee, yielding fewer options and forcing people to rely more on mastery of basic gameplay and reduces the pace of the game, which melee players find unappealing. And I suppose tripping isn't really helping the case either.

Items are not what attracted the community to competitive smash, so it's unlikely that turning them on would draw players back to Brawl.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Just because you have one example of items negating something that competetive smahsers don't generally like, doesn't mean that items suddenly make sense.

Just said it was food for thought, and it is. Doesn't matter if you personally think it doesn't suddenly make sense. That's your opinion, you're entitled to it, but for some people it already makes sense, even before taking my example into consideration, which is why the format is being played.

 

[ph00tbag]

Well it seems to me that the thing that is driving players away from Brawl and back to Melee is the lack of hitstun, lag reducing techniques (sffling), and reduced movement speed (with wavedashing gone). The gameplay much more rigid than melee, yielding fewer options and forcing people to rely more on mastery of basic gameplay and reduces the pace of the game, which melee players find unappealing. And I suppose tripping isn't really helping the case either.

Items are not what attracted the community to competitive smash, so it's unlikely that turning them on would draw players back to Brawl.

I'm going to agree very strongly here. competitive Melee players dislike the massive hit that technical play received in the change. EGGMAN hasn't even listed all of the technical aspects that were removed. Crouch Canceling, JC grabs, full-length dash dancing and pivoting. All of that is gone. These underrated techs, plus the other techs literally made it so that at any point on the ground, you could do any ground move, even during a run, within a frame of the running animation. You could acheive any spacing you needed.

Without these tech, your options are heavily restricted. With the inclusion of tripping, I think it's safe to say that running was nerfed more heavily than Captain Falcon in Brawl. This slowed the game down a lot. And for many Melee players, that required a massive adjustment.

Nowhere in that description did anything that All-Brawl has altered come up as a problem for former Melee players. In fact, the Melee revivalists I've would probably scoff even more at All-Brawl than most Brawl players. Melee players like items-off, they like Advanced Slob, they like the existing stage-bans (they would probably be more liberal in their application of stage bans than the SBR). The most that All-Brawl will do to increase attendance is draw in casual players who don't know much about the game anyway. Now, if I'm the only competitive player there, hell yes I'll attend, because I want their money. But as the amount of attendees of close skill levels to me increases, I may be less willing, because I don't want to put my money on the line in something where I won't know my loss was due to my own failings.

 

[infernovia]

Did you honestly attend the first tourney because you were expecting to win?

All-brawl will in no way be a competitive standard. But some people are just over-exaggerating stuff.

 

[ph00tbag]

Did you honestly attend the first tourney because you were expecting to win?

I expected to win when I played better than my opponent and to lose when I played worse. I've said nothing contrary to that. Items make a larger margin of error for that distinction, and in Season's Beatings alone I saw several instances of the margin being wider.

 

[Animeko]

And WHICH item happened to spawn. If I predict when an item's gonna spawn, get my opponent off the stage, get control of the stage... ...and then how useful that was depends not only on me and my opponent, but also the luck of the random number generator. If I get a golden hammer or a smashball - well then my success in getting that item might just win me that stock entirely. If it's, say, a piece of food - well, all that successful work to get that item ended up not mattering. And, over the course of a game, the sequence of items spawns can definitely end up helping one player or the other, if they go back and forth in who gets items.

From what I've seen, the more highly skilled players can control the stage during most if not all item spawns. But if there is a lot of back and forth between who is controlling the stage during spawns, then it comes down to who can use/defend against items more effectively. Because the matches are 3/5 though, I'd say with confidence the more skillful player wins.

I'm going to agree very strongly here. competitive Melee players dislike the massive hit that technical play received in the change. EGGMAN hasn't even listed all of the technical aspects that were removed. Crouch Canceling, JC grabs, full-length dash dancing and pivoting. All of that is gone

I agree with this, hands down.
Because these technical aspects were removed, Brawl is pretty plain Jane, in my opinion, without the layer of complexity that items and stages bring. With some skill and knowledge, items can be used not only to one's advantage, but also endured. That's what I think items have to do with Brawl's problems. so.. yeah.

The most that All-Brawl will do to increase attendance is draw in casual players who don't know much about the game anyway. Now, if I'm the only competitive player there, hell yes I'll attend, because I want their money. But as the amount of attendees of close skill levels to me increases, I may be less willing, because I don't want to put my money on the line in something where I won't know my loss was due to my own failings.

Yep, I have seen a larger amount of casuals join All-Brawl, assuming that items could give them a few cheap wins. But yeah, no cigar, they fail pretty hard haha.

 

[Animeko]

Items make a larger margin of error for that distinction, and in Season's Beatings alone I saw several instances of the margin being wider.

examples please?

 

[kr3wman]

examples please?

Ken vs CPU.

That wasn't hard. I mean, SK92 is probably better than Ken (In brawl), yet Ken practised a little with items before and won against SK.

The skills that you use to be good with items offset the skills you have in your characters, which is the main problem I have with items.

 

[Animeko]

No. I mean examples from Seasons Beatings, not EVO.

 

[kr3wman]

No. I mean examples from Seasons Beatings, not EVO.

It still fills the point and argument being made.

 

[Animeko]

I was already aware of the scandalous Ken vs. CPU match. But thanks. What I do not know is what went awry at Seasons Beatings.

 

[ph00tbag]

Admittedly, looking back at the matches I watch, the majority of the offending matches resulted from the All-Brawl ruleset in particular (most notably the Sudden Death rule). However, I could point to this match in particular, which actually shows a very common theme throughout many All-Brawl matches brought to a successful conclusion. I can only imagine that instances of this will grow in frequency as people get better at reading spot-dodges. Obviously, I'm talking about the Dragoon.

Since Forward and AZ are able to go roughly even as far as stage control, it's up to the randomness of the game as to who will get what. Not surprisingly, they at one point become dead even with regards to Dragoon pieces. Forward KOs AZ, who drops his Dragoon piece from the KOing hit.

Forward did a good job gaining sole control of the stage for the next spawn, yes, but only the most cynical (like me) could have predicted that that very spawn would be the final Dragoon piece. And even then, I didn't even believe my prediction. Nevertheless, the game essentially gave Forward the next stock randomly. If it hadn't been a Dragoon Piece, who knows? Maybe AZ would have had a chance to stage a comeback. Instead, the margin of error was broadened, in my opinion. This, or a similar case happened in a lot of Season's Beatings matches, as well as at least one match at MN Meltdown.

 

[kr3wman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlAlitRBYqs&feature=related

LOL.

Add that to my reasons why Items on isn't competitive. Like wtf.

EDIT : And JWong should practise a bit.

 

[Cyntalan Maelstrom]

Forward did a good job gaining sole control of the stage for the next spawn, yes, but only the most cynical (like me) could have predicted that that very spawn would be the final Dragoon piece. And even then, I didn't even believe my prediction. Nevertheless, the game essentially gave Forward the next stock randomly. If it hadn't been a Dragoon Piece, who knows? Maybe AZ would have had a chance to stage a comeback. Instead, the margin of error was broadened, in my opinion. This, or a similar case happened in a lot of Season's Beatings matches, as well as at least one match at MN Meltdown.

More fun facts: no other items spawn until all dragoon pieces spawn. There was nothing short of a guarantee the next item would be piece #3. No prediction necessary.

 

[Animeko]

More fun facts: no other items spawn until all dragoon pieces spawn. There was nothing short of a guarantee the next item would be piece #3. No prediction necessary.

Thanks, I was just going to say just that. Also keep in mind that the player who activates the Dragoon doesn't automatically cause a KO. The Dragoon is easy to dodge, in fact it's far more likely to miss.

Forward earned that KO by waiting patiently until he saw an opportunity between the spot-dodge frames.