Is All-Brawl the future competitive standard?

[Animeko]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlAli...eature=related

LOL.

Add that to my reasons why Items on isn't competitive. Like wtf.


EDIT : And JWong should practise a bit.

I know right? But if you pay attention to the match, Justin lost one stock despite all the BS. If DeltaPunk was a little more patient with throwing the pokeballs/assist trophy, he could have easily scored a double KO. That, and Justin had an opportunity to grab a pokeball as well. (1:08 I believe.)

But yeah, Justin was playing like garbage anyway. I don't think he's played since the game came out. I was a little disappointed with him...

(You know after watching this video again I realized something... Justin was the one that opened the crate full of goodies in the first place. The game felt really really sorry for him I think. )

 

[ph00tbag]

Forward earned that KO by waiting patiently until he saw an opportunity between the spot-dodge frames.

So what happens when that kind of precision is normal at high levels of play?

Essentially what this shows is that Dragoon pieces are a won match most of the time. I don't think that every three or four matches should just be decided like this. Like I said, it ups the margin of error.

 

[Dark Sonic]

So what happens when that kind of precision is normal at high levels of play?

And before anybody comes and says "well, most people won't reach that level of precision"

I'd like to point out...melee Fox. If people can learn how to SHDL, and SDI out of Fox's uair (with decent consistancy I might add), then people can learn this. Especially since the reward for learning this would be so high (too high, free guranteed 0% kills?)

 

[Cyntalan Maelstrom]

And before anybody comes and says "well, most people won't reach that level of precision"

I'd like to point out...melee Fox. If people can learn how to SHDL, and SDI out of Fox's uair (with decent consistancy I might add), then people can learn this. Especially since the reward for learning this would be so high (too high, free guranteed 0% kills?)

I believe the more likely response is going to be "we'll cross that bridge when we come to it". In other words, when it happens, it'll most likely bring about a reason to warrant looking into altering the rules. That's how it typically works. You play 'til you break, then either do what's necessary to unbreak (ban ST Akuma) or drop the game if what's necessary to unbreak is too compromising (dump SvC Chaos). Until that kind of thing is proven to be the guaranteed outcome, I don't see it being removed from play, however. This is exactly how items went down in Melee, and there's no reason to do anything different in Brawl.

 

[ph00tbag]

I believe the more likely response is going to be "we'll cross that bridge when we come to it". In other words, when it happens, it'll most likely bring about a reason to warrant looking into altering the rules. That's how it typically works. You play 'til you break, then either do what's necessary to unbreak (ban ST Akuma) or drop the game if what's necessary to unbreak is too compromising (dump SvC Chaos). Until that kind of thing is proven to be the guaranteed outcome, I don't see it being removed from play, however. This is exactly how items went down in Melee, and there's no reason to do anything different in Brawl.

Or we could just play the other game that's included in the same package to begin with. That's the road most competitive brawl players take. They don't want to make the commitment to learn a game that they foresee they'll have to drop. Instead, they play Brawl with no items.

This is why All-Brawl will be less successful among the greater SWF community; They like the game that they're playing better. You guys are free to enjoy All-Brawl, but don't demean the SWF community because you don't think we've done our homework.

 

[kr3wman]

I think he was suggesting that we play with items until people realize it's stupid to play with them and go back to item-less Smash like we did with Melee.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I think he was suggesting that we play with items until people realize it's stupid to play with them and go back to item-less Smash like we did with Melee.

lol.

tenchar

 

[ph00tbag]

I think he was suggesting that we play with items until people realize it's stupid to play with them and go back to item-less Smash like we did with Melee.

But very few people in this community want to, is what I'm saying. It's like Finnish Baseball. It's no less competitive than the MLB way of playing, but the rest of the ball-and-stick sport playing world goes for American Baseball, Test Cricket, and Twenty20. The nations that endorse the last three are just used to their way of playing. Why should they bother to go for the Finnish way?

 

[Animeko]

But very few people in this community want to, is what I'm saying.

At Season's Beatings, for example, 68 people entered the no-item Brawl tournament on Saturday. The next day, 30 people stuck around to play All-Brawl, even less entered Melee. Seemed like a decent turn out to me for a side tournament.

It's like Finnish Baseball. It's no less competitive than the MLB way of playing, but the rest of the ball-and-stick sport playing world goes for American Baseball, Test Cricket, and Twenty20. The nations that endorse the last three are just used to their way of playing. Why should they bother to go for the Finnish way?

You're a gamer. You are not a professional athlete under contract of a professional sports organization to play under a specific set of rules for a living. You wouldn't be voiding a contract or breaking any endorsement agreements by entering All-Brawl as well as no-items Brawl.

More importantly, it's not a contest between which set of rules should be the "standard"; All-Brawl is an alternative way of playing, nothing more nothing less. Both ways of playing can be run side by side with virtually no effort, and by having the option available, people have the freedom to choose between playing one over the other, or both. In the end, it's about having fun, and possibly winning some chump change.

 

[ph00tbag]

At Season's Beatings, for example, 68 people entered the no-item Brawl tournament on Saturday. The next day, 30 people stuck around to play All-Brawl, even less entered Melee. Seemed like a decent turn out to me for a side tournament.

It's still less, which is my point. People will attend, but not as many.

You're a gamer. You are not a professional athlete under contract of a professional sports organization to play under a specific set of rules for a living. You wouldn't be voiding a contract or breaking any endorsement agreements by entering All-Brawl as well as no-items Brawl.

I did mention the MLB, but I was referring to their standard, which is what most baseball games in our country follow. Other than that, I said nothing about professionals. If high schools, or universities, suddenly started offering Finnish baseball clubs, there would be fewer people in them.

More importantly, it's not a contest between which set of rules should be the "standard"; All-Brawl is an alternative way of playing, nothing more nothing less. Both ways of playing can be run side by side with virtually no effort, and by having the option available, people have the freedom to choose between playing one over the other, or both. In the end, it's about having fun, and possibly winning some chump change.

I'm glad to see you agree with me. I'm just staying topical by answering the OP's question. Anything wrong with that?

 

[Animeko]

No, not at all. Just sayin' that "very few people" is an exaggeration.

 

[IvanEva]

Smash is in a class of it's own when it comes to fighting games.......I think that's one of the reasons why it's so wildly popular. It's innovative.

This sentence made me chuckle. Please, let's not kid ourselves here. Smash is a great series and we all love how it plays but if it was Bob, Mike, Joe, etc. instead of Mario, Kirby, and Snake there'd no way in hell that we'd still be playing this. Fighting games are made/broken by their communities. Smash has had the benefit of having the extremely large pool of Nintendo fanboys to draw upon. It's like how Street Fighter IV is mostly going with the Street Fighter II characters because a lot of people didn't give Street Fighter III - arguably the superior game - a chance since the "classic" characters weren't in it.

On topic: First off, I should say that people shouldn't be attacking Keits, SRK guys, or other SWF guys. This isn't about them per se, it's about the idea of this 'All-Brawl'. Keits is to All-Brawl as Darwin is to evolution: they don't matter, the idea does.

Second, for the All-Brawl stuff itself, I'm on the fence about it. Really, a month or so ago I too laughed at the idea. However, after playing some solid All-Brawl style matches with my brother I found that they had no impact on our usual win rates. As well, from what I've been gathering, the All-Brawl rules seem to have this funny way of balancing each other out when they're all together. 'Broken' levels become much less so due to the cost-benefits of camping, running away, etc at the cost of missing out on item opportunities. The use of Brawl's actual Sudden Death time, instead of basing it on percentages, heavily counters stallers and when you're actually used to it - I strongly recommend practicing surviving in Sudden Death mode - you start to realize that it's not as overwhelming as it seems.

A lot of the things that have been considered broken really aren't when you take the time to learn to deal with them. Those videos that showed some item related victories and losses had nothing broken in them; they were just filled with situations that those players were probably pretty unfamiliar with. It's like how SO many people bash that CPU guy for beating Ken. CPU won because he was the best player there under that ruleset. That he's 14 or something is completely irrelevant.

That being said, there is still that ever-present, undeniable luck factor that's looming overhead. The question concerning All-Brawl (which, on a side note, I think is a terribly lame name for it) is whether the luck factor is large enough to have an effect on skill. As Peach, Game & Watch, Dedede, and Luigi has shown, luck alone is never enough to win something. In the end the only way to find out if All-Brawl is a viable tournament alternative is to ACTUALLY PLAY IT IN A SERIOUS SETTING to observe and collect data.

In my idealized dream world All-Brawl will turn out to be valid competitively, be accepted by the entire Smash community, make Brawl different enough from Melee so that Brawl itself no longer threatens to completely replace Melee, and then have Melee and Brawl happily going strong side by side as two sister games that can then coexist similar to how Capcom games coexist. Just a dream?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

It's like how Street Fighter IV is mostly going with the Street Fighter II characters because a lot of people didn't give Street Fighter III - arguably the superior game - a chance since the "classic" characters weren't in it.

The rest of the Street Fighter community would like to have a word with you.

And like the rest of your post, it's a matter of opinion. Some people don't find it very competitive; other people like yourself do.

(What do you know? The rest of the first paragraph vanished. Sorry about that, Ivan; had to take a second and re-read.)

Whether you like to admit it or not, there is a disparity between skill and luck when it comes to item play. That is about the only "fact" the against side could illustrate in comparison. Is there "skill" in exploiting that fact? Of course. But it's not the sort of skill that some of us are looking for.

Smooth Criminal

 

[maXXXpower]

Stopped reading here.

The very notion that anything that comes out of SRK would be a competitive standard for Brawl is a joke.

AHAHAH! This guy knows what's up.

SRK should just stick to SF. There are no shoryukens in Smash. Except for maybe Mario and Luigi's UpB.

Edit:

To answer the op's question:

No. SRK's ruleset will not define the Smash community's future competitive standard. It may define the Street Fighter community's competitive standard for Smash, but for people who really know anything about Smash and how it relates to competition (ie. SWF), SRK's ruleset will influence nothing more than a light chuckle.

Why? Because SRK is the authority on Street Fighter, not fighting games. SWF is the authority on Smash, which is why you don't see us hosting SF tournies with our own twist or ruleset. Suggesting that SRK should define our rules for competition is like like hiring a plumber to be your attorney in court. It's pretty dumb.

 

[EnigmaticCam]

See, what you're missing is that's what they want to see. They want solid evidence that this kind of thing is broke. Lots of jokes, lots of theory, no putting down something to prove it. You'll be more than welcomed, and in fact, it's been said many times before that they want people to be as exploitative as possible to show hard evidence that some things just don't belong. You think you can go own in that environment using that strategy? Do it. You won't get booed. You won't get dirty looks. You won't feel like you're the bad guy. You'll be revered as the winner using a valid strategy within the confines of the rules provided.





Or this could be a lot of bull like all the other spouts of hearsay and conjecture that comes from the unwashed masses here.

As opposed to what, the ******** circular logic that is srk?

SWF: Here are our reasonings as to why items should be turned off.
SRK: No reasonings, only tournament video proof
SWF: Ok then, here's our tournament vids to support our claims.
SRK: No good, player x was doing it wrong based on our reasonings.

 

[IvanEva]

1. There are no shoryukens in Smash. Except for maybe Mario and Luigi's UpB.

2. Because SRK is the authority on Street Fighter, not fighting games. SWF is the authority on Smash, which is why you don't see us hosting SF tournies with our own twist or ruleset. Suggesting that SRK should define our rules for competition is like like hiring a plumber to be your attorney in court. It's pretty dumb.

1. Peach, Marth, Metaknight, Charizard, Squirtle, Mr. Game and Watch, Ganondorf, Ice Climbers, Ike, Kirby, Link, Samus, and Wario have all trained under Ryu. Sure they put their spin on things but in the end what you're looking at with them is a modified Shoryuken! It's interesting to note that Mario/Luigi's initial Smash incarnation is very much a homage to Ken/Ryu. Nintendo learned from the best.

The biggest difference between Street Fighter (or most any other fighting game) and Smash tournament is that when you play Street Fighter you're actually playing pure Street Fighter! That is to say, there are no (well, considerably less) fan made rules or modifications attached to it. You're playing what the designers intended you to play and how to play it. Smash is a different beast in that there is an overwhelming amount of options. PURE, 100%-Sakurai-endorsed Brawl would be two minute time matches with all items/stages on. What we're currently playing amounts to what a cabal on a certain message board wants us to play. It's worked well thus but far too many players have taken it as if it's Nintendo's 'Official Smash Bros. rules'.

What's with this weird partriotic-ish mentality between Smash World Forums, All is Brawl, Shoryuken, etc.? Lurking around the Shoryuken boards you get a feeling that Smash World Forum guys are all elitists. The SWF community may have started the North American Smash Bros. scene but please don't denounce other forums/players for trying something different, especially just because they're from other message boards. In the end, neither of us are playing "real" (i.e intended) Brawl.

 

[kataridragon]

I idea is pretty simple: choosing to ban one item but not another makes it a question of an arbitrary degree of what is acceptable. True, if you attempt to define what is acceptable you can make a run for "balance", but in the end the argument for randomness will always exist, so why not simply embrace all of them?

I agree with this completely.

I posted a topic much like this on another site and i cannot tell u how flamed i was.

Personally i think it would be better to have items on. BLASPHEMY from my lips.

The real question seems to be what is the "real" way to play brawl in tournaments. Most seem to just generally believe that eliminating items eliminates unevenness. However most item situations can be controlled and avoided with knowing how to deal with them. Also knowing how to utilize items becomes a skill. Which takes more skill in my opinion which would essentially help balance the game more.

Let me put it this way everyone has a chance to get the item. Everyone can defend against items. Items don't determine matches, skill does.

I think its just a concept we as a community have been sucked into and unfortunately mus deal with.

Waits for flame

 

[Cyntalan Maelstrom]

As opposed to what, the ******** circular logic that is srk?

SWF: Here are our reasonings as to why items should be turned off.
SRK: No reasonings, only tournament video proof
SWF: Ok then, here's our tournament vids to support our claims.
SRK: No good, player x was doing it wrong based on our reasonings.

If you want to sit there in your deranged mentality where you can do no wrong and everyone who disagrees with you is ********, that's totally fine. Fact is that people actually enjoy and, heaven forbid, PREFER items in competitive play, and the number grows as more people actually stop throwing a fit at the very idea (I guess with these people they feel their world might come crashing down if items are actually taken seriously, HO NOES!) and actually give it a chance. It's fresh, it's different, and it's an absolutely legit way to play the game. It may not be your cup of tea, but don't for a second try to denounce it. Hell, even AZ gave it a go, came back impressed (still prefers itemless play, but recognizes the legitimacy of the option to the point where items play should be allowed along side itemless play) and you guys start thinkin' he's nuts. What it all comes down to is preference.

As for it being a standard, I never honestly expected it to overtake itemless play, but I did expect it to return in the force akin to how items were in Melee for the timeline it was run in: some tourneys did it, some didn't, both were accepted and treated on the same level. Why this is such a hard thing to comprehend by anyone who wasn't around then to remember how it was boggles my mind. It also makes me laugh how most of the people that have enjoyed items play have no qualms playing without, but the reciprocal does nothing short of balk at the idea.

EDIT: do you just sit idly by on threads about items until I post? Do you have some sort of mental deficiency that causes you to go into convuslions if you don't respond to a post you see me make?

...seriously.

 

[EnigmaticCam]

If you want to sit there in your deranged mentality where you can do no wrong and everyone who disagrees with you is ********, that's totally fine. Fact is that people actually prefer and, heaven forbid, ENJOY items in competitive play, and the number grows as more people actually stop throwing a fit at the very idea (I guess with these people they feel their world might come crashing down if items are actually taken seriously, HO NOES!) and actually give it a chance. It's fresh, it's different, and it's an absolutely legit way to play the game. It may not be your cup of tea, but don't for a second try to denounce it. Hell, even AZ gave it a go, came back impressed (still prefers itemless play, but recognizes the legitimacy of the option to the point where items play should be allowed along side itemless play) and you guys start thinkin' he's nuts. What it all comes down to is preference.

As for it being a standard, I never honestly expected it to overtake itemless play, but I did expect it to return in the force akin to how items were in Melee for the timeline it was run in: some tourneys did it, some didn't, both were accepted and treated on the same level. Why this is such a hard thing to comprehend by anyone who wasn't around then to remember how it was boggles my mind. It also makes me laugh how most of the people that have enjoyed items play have no qualms playing without, but the reciprocal does nothing short of balk at the idea.

I liked how his had nothing to do with what I said. Did you accidentally click reply to the wrong post? Hi2u strawman.

EDIT: do you just sit idly by on threads about items until I post? Do you have some sort of mental deficiency that causes you to go into convuslions if you don't respond to a post you see me make?

...seriously.

You'd like to think you're that special, don't you?

 

[Flowbeat]

I don't think anyone says there is no skill to using items, there is, but that doesn't change the fact that you still are going to get a more random result in the end degrading the amount of pure skill vs skill in a match.

 

[ftl]

The real question seems to be what is the "real" way to play brawl in tournaments.

No. The real question is which is the "better" way to play brawl in tournaments.

Most seem to just generally believe that eliminating items eliminates unevenness. However most item situations can be controlled and avoided with knowing how to deal with them.

However, some cannot.

Also knowing how to utilize items becomes a skill. Which takes more skill in my opinion which would essentially help balance the game more.

True, it is a skill. We have to, however, balance the additional options that it creates with the randomness it would add.

Let me put it this way everyone has a chance to get the item. Everyone can defend against items.Items don't determine matches, skill does.

However, when two players are evenly matched (close in skill), the items CAN determine matches. They don't necessarily help both players evenly, even when both players are equally skilled with them.

 

[TP]

Let me put it this way everyone has a chance to get the item. Everyone can defend against items. Items don't determine matches, skill does.

Yeah, if you have the most skill, you'll get control over the item situation. Nothing shows dominance like stealing a lightning/timer/hammer/golden hammer right out from under the opponent's nose... and then it backfires and you die.

Wait a second, maybe that isn't skill after all.

 

[paulleh]

three words. Items, Suck, Balls, =)

 

[TK Wolf]

Let me put it this way everyone has a chance to get the item. Everyone can defend against items. Items don't determine matches, skill does.

Items often spawn much closer to one player than another. Not everyone has a chance to get the item. If a better player controls 3 of 4 item-spawn points, and the item happens to spawn on the other, that's just luck giving the other player an advantage. If a better player hits a smash ball several times and it doesn't break (and you can't influence the direciton it moves when you hit it), then the other player gets a hit in and breaks it, that's pure luck. Sometimes it breaks early sometimes it doesn't.

Not all items can be defended against either. Invincibility-Star, stopwatch, several final smashes, heart-container (free extra stock in many cases), deku-nut/exploding item falling right next to you to name a few.

Skill determines matches for the most part, but items can spin things around, giving players advantages or disadvantages they didn't deserve.

 

[aeghrur]

Hey, hey, SWF has items-play too, it's just the items SWF WOULD use is more balanced than stuff like smash balls, deku nuts, etc. When a smash ball appears, tell me your attention doesn't focus on getting that? >_> And then it sort of controls the game until someone gets it, activates it, and it controls the game a little more. Anyways, point is, items play is fine, just... randomness...more unfairness... meh. =/

 

[kr3wman]

Items often spawn much closer to one player than another. Not everyone has a chance to get the item. If a better player controls 3 of 4 item-spawn points, and the item happens to spawn on the other, that's just luck giving the other player an advantage. If a better player hits a smash ball several times and it doesn't break (and you can't influence the direciton it moves when you hit it), then the other player gets a hit in and breaks it, that's pure luck. Sometimes it breaks early sometimes it doesn't.

Not all items can be defended against either. Invincibility-Star, stopwatch, several final smashes, heart-container (free extra stock in many cases), deku-nut/exploding item falling right next to you to name a few.

Skill determines matches for the most part, but items can spin things around, giving players advantages or disadvantages they didn't deserve.

However, when two players are evenly matched (close in skill), the items CAN determine matches. They don't necessarily help both players evenly, even when both players are equally skilled with them.

No further discussion is needed.

I.E., /thread.

 

[Alopex]

1. Peach, Marth, Metaknight, Charizard, Squirtle, Mr. Game and Watch, Ganondorf, Ice Climbers, Ike, Kirby, Link, Samus, and Wario have all trained under Ryu. Sure they put their spin on things but in the end what you're looking at with them is a modified Shoryuken! It's interesting to note that Mario/Luigi's initial Smash incarnation is very much a homage to Ken/Ryu. Nintendo learned from the best.

The biggest difference between Street Fighter (or most any other fighting game) and Smash tournament is that when you play Street Fighter you're actually playing pure Street Fighter! That is to say, there are no (well, considerably less) fan made rules or modifications attached to it. You're playing what the designers intended you to play and how to play it. Smash is a different beast in that there is an overwhelming amount of options. PURE, 100%-Sakurai-endorsed Brawl would be two minute time matches with all items/stages on. What we're currently playing amounts to what a cabal on a certain message board wants us to play. It's worked well thus but far too many players have taken it as if it's Nintendo's 'Official Smash Bros. rules'.

What's with this weird partriotic-ish mentality between Smash World Forums, All is Brawl, Shoryuken, etc.? Lurking around the Shoryuken boards you get a feeling that Smash World Forum guys are all elitists. The SWF community may have started the North American Smash Bros. scene but please don't denounce other forums/players for trying something different, especially just because they're from other message boards. In the end, neither of us are playing "real" (i.e intended) Brawl.

I support this mentality. Everyone can play the game how they want to play it.

Each tournament makes their own rules. You either go to it, or you don't.

There doesn't have to be one single standard on a game as diverse as Brawl.
Pick your preferred standard and practice on that one. No need to crash other people's parties.

 

[kr3wman]

Read this :

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=162502&page=5

The people in that thread are ****ing weak.

 

[Animeko]

If a better player hits a smash ball several times and it doesn't break (and you can't influence the direciton it moves when you hit it), then the other player gets a hit in and breaks it, that's pure luck. Sometimes it breaks early sometimes it doesn't.

Obtaining the smash ball doesn't guarantee a lucky KO, though. And it's the KO that matters in the end. In fact, even final smashes don't guarantee a lucky KO. For example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJb5OoSRMfA
1:36 / 3:05

Justin (Diddy) hit the smash ball twice but wasn't able to break it. Steve (Pikachu), however, broke the smash ball with just one hit. Still, Justin received only 22% damage from Pikachu's final smash. Not only did Justin endure the final smash, he threw a capsule at Pikachu and scored a KO shortly after.

Not all items can be defended against either. Invincibility-Star

Again,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf-8uhaNgBs
1:46 / 2:17

Run away and stall any way your character can for 10 seconds.
(Also, players with a starman can still be hit by Isaac's move spell... That wouldn't be a likely situation but it would be really cool to catch on video! )

Skill determines matches for the most part, but items can spin things around, giving players advantages or disadvantages they didn't deserve.

Again, the 3/5 set helps to balance that out. I have yet to see a total scrub win an All-Brawl tourny.

 

[TK Wolf]

Read this :

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=162502&page=5

The people in that thread are ****ing weak.

Wtf? They think that spamming spot dodge (with varying timing) is a mind game? You just wait for the spot dodge to end and hit them in their cooldown frames... there's lag at the beginning and end of a spot dodge, roll, aerial dodge, etc.


And there's little doubt that a newbie wouldn't win an items tourney. We're talking between players who are highly skilled. Also, some final smashes are easily survivable, but take something like sonic, fox, etc, and its a very different story. Pika's FS is not a good one compared to many others out there. Lastly, that Samus player didn't know how to pursue. She could have jumped down and attacked offstage, but instead she flailed around onstage.

 

[ftl]

Obtaining the smash ball doesn't guarantee a lucky KO, though. And it's the KO that matters in the end. In fact, even final smashes don't guarantee a lucky KO. For example:

Justin (Diddy) hit the smash ball twice but wasn't able to break it. Steve (Pikachu), however, broke the smash ball with just one hit. Still, Justin received only 22% damage from Pikachu's final smash. Not only did Justin endure the final smash, he threw a capsule at Pikachu and scored a KO shortly after.

Of course. Just because someone got lucky, it doesn't mean that it WILL make a difference in the match. It could make a difference, or it could make no difference. That's why it's random.

Run away and stall any way your character can for 10 seconds.

Likewise, depending on the player or the opponent and the characters and the level, that may or may not be possible.

Again, the 3/5 set helps to balance that out. I have yet to see a total scrub win an All-Brawl tourny.

For the nth time - I don't expect the randomness to help a scrub win a tourney. I DO expect that the randomness will occasionally make the person who wins be the second or third best around, instead of the best, and occasional scrubs beating better players in the early rounds.

 

[Animeko]

I DO expect that the randomness will occasionally make the person who wins be the second or third best around, instead of the best

No offense, but that doesn't make sense to me. If you get first place in a tournament, you are the best around. What else can a person do other than win first in a tournament to prove that? Winning consistently would be the way I suppose, and so far, the All-Brawl bracket results have been consistent with the no items results. At SB3, the results were:

1.) Forward
2.) AlphaZealot
3.) Pyro
4.) SkiSonic!

compare this to the no-items tournament:

1: Inui ($469.00) - MetaKnight
2: Forward ($134.00) - Snake/Pit
3: AlphaZealot ($67.00) - Diddy Kong
4: Dook - Snake/Lucario

(Keep in mind that SkiSonic did not enter the no-items tournament and Inui did not enter All-Brawl.)

and occasional scrubs beating better players in the early rounds.

Doesn't matter. There's a loser's bracket and the winner of that bracket goes on to play the winner of the winner's bracket.

 

[ftl]

No offense, but that doesn't make sense to me. If you get first place in a tournament, you are the best around.

Ideally, that's be the case. However, if there's some randomness involved, it's possible for someone to playing a bit worse than other players involved, and get lucky and win. The more randomness there is, the higher the probability of this. The closer the matchups are, the higher the probability of this.

At SB3, the results were:

1.) Forward
2.) AlphaZealot
3.) Pyro
4.) SkiSonic!

compare this to the no-items tournament:

1: Inui ($469.00) - MetaKnight
2: Forward ($134.00) - Snake/Pit
3: AlphaZealot ($67.00) - Diddy Kong
4: Dook - Snake/Lucario

(Keep in mind that SkiSonic did not enter the no-items tournament and Inui did not enter All-Brawl.)

Well, that's definitely encouraging; combined with what AZ said, it looks like the randomness usually averages out. I'm not convinced that that it does so as well as the proponents of All-brawl claim, but it's nowhere near as bad as what most of the anti-items people claim... I'm kind of in the middle I guess we'll see, as more of these happen.

Doesn't matter. There's a loser's bracket and the winner of that bracket goes on to play the winner of the winner's bracket.

Losing is a step back regardless of the tournament setup. That's pretty fundamental to any ruleset, even a double-elimination. If you go on to win the tournament then sure, it didn't matter; but you've got that much less room for error to do so. A loss matters.

 

[Dustlord]

Whoops, looks like Keits is lurking on the SWF: (Post# 96)

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=162502&page=4

I'd like to hear what Keits has to say in reply to this topic, but given the general attitude of the posters, I can't see how he would say anything without getting flamed.

Even though it's almost unanimous that Items add in a randomness factor, the stages are inherently biased towards specific characters, right? In that case, wouldn't that mean that it's better to have the randomness the items give than the obvious overpoweredness the stages provide to certain characters/tactics? Than it might not be too much longer until item tournaments in the future would ban certain stages. And as for the Stopwatch/Lightning/Golden Hammer, in a money match, I think the chances of them backfiring would be enough to discourage people from going out of their way to grab them.

Come to think of it, if Item tournies started banning stages, that would probably be the first step before they started banning items. And before long, you arrive at the SWF ISP list =P

However, I think both kinds of tournaments should be run (All Brawl and SBR rules) in order to attract newer players in the tournament scene. I've never been to a tournament myself, but I could see going to an All-Brawl tournament to help transition myself from a casual player to a tournament player. After all, if I'm going to get seeded with the number 1 player in the first round, I at least want to have some fun being knocked into the loser's bracket. On the other hand, some people would want their first tournament to have items off and be on Final Destination just to focus on all the advanced play the high level players have.

Actually, I love how the seeding system works. If I go to a big tournament, I'd defiantly want to play a big name player, but no one would really want to watch that. On the other hand, near the end, when high level players are playing, it gives everyone else a chance to see some high-level stuff going on.

 

[ph00tbag]

And as for the Stopwatch/Lightning/Golden Hammer, in a money match, I think the chances of them backfiring would be enough to discourage people from going out of their way to grab them.

This is certainly worth noting for the Golden Hammer, and normal Hammers, too. For the Timer and the Lighting, though, we should take note that these can spawn on top of you, causing you to take the effects whether you want to or not.

 

[Cyntalan Maelstrom]

Whoops, looks like Keits is lurking on the SWF: (Post# 96)

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=162502&page=4

I'd like to hear what Keits has to say in reply to this topic, but given the general attitude of the posters, I can't see how he would say anything without getting flamed.

Keits typically gets linked these threads from #srkbrawl. I don't think he peruses on his own. He's said he'd never start up an account here on several occasions, though, so don't expect him to ever post.

Come to think of it, if Item tournies started banning stages, that would probably be the first step before they started banning items. And before long, you arrive at the SWF ISP list =P

You might indeed be right. Down the road, certain aspects may be removed from play if they're deemed to detrimental to the game to allow in, and the snowball effect (more like glacier effect in terms of speed) will undoubtedly end up with a setting somewhat close to ISP. I highly doubt it'll match, and the number of removals will never be the same, nor will the overly complex system of item counterpicking ever be a part of it, but I don't doubt that over time it'll be pruned to a degree.

Same thing happened w/ Melee. First hearts/tomatoes went, then stars, then hammers, then pokeballs, then bob-ombs. Containers probably would've went with bob-ombs if they could have, but couldn't, and thus no items became the only choice. Note that until items were removed, no other stage was actually up for ban besides YI64/Temple. Without the incentive to keep pressure on your opponent, zone stages (like Venom) became dumb.

I don't forsee the same thing happening to All-Brawl, though, simply because the one key factor that was missing from Melee to keep it from turning out the way it did is here in Brawl (container switch). As it stands now, everything's on, and will be for the forseeable future. I can accept that, begrudgingly, and may attend some if they happen to be in my area. If I could, I'd run 'em myself.

 

[ThaRoy]

This'll be the standards for item-matches.

But...no.

 

[Revolver Roosevelt]

The issue I believe many people are having is not that other people are playing a different way than the overwhelming majority of the smash community is(even though the all-brawl ruleset seems to deliberately differ with the smash community in as many ways as possible.) I believe people have an inherent opposition to the idea that a tournament, which is a gathering of players from across the land to attempt to find the most skilled among them, should have a ruleset that consistently provides matches with an admittedly uneven playing field.

That, and I've already seen anime convention tourneys use the EVO ruleset, usually in an attempt to please all of the SF players who want to have some fun with smash.

 

[Discolicious]

I guess all-brawl is fine if you really like items but I heard EVO was absolutely stupid soooo I'm gonna believe them

 

[Tomato Kirby]

This'll be the standards for item-matches.

But...no.

If people really want items on, then that format is...OK...maybe. It is not as effective in determining skill level.

As Revolver Roosevelt said, I suppose that the format pleases several people - casual included.

I guess all-brawl is fine if you really like items but I heard EVO was absolutely stupid soooo I'm gonna believe them

We better not bring EVO up.

...

Is Keits pushing the AllBrawl as the SSBB competitive standard?