Is across-the-board low landing lag on aerials really necessary?

[Tagxy]

@ victinivcreate1 No one is saying there is NO ground game because thats obviously not true. I did forget about diddy. Otherwise youre forgetting about characters like peach, jiggs, pika, etc. Yes characters like Luigi had prominent ground games, but you'll notice those sorts of characters would just get dominated by the MKs, fox's, and falcos with dominating airgames.

Also if it takes lame CGs to balance a characters ground game to air games, thats generally not good and sort of proves the point.

Nobody is saying "If it is not melee it is bad" lol.

A lot of people are saying "if it doesnt have these specific melee qualities it wont be good" which is basically the same thing.

 

[victinivcreate1]

@ victinivcreate1 No one is saying there is NO ground game because thats obviously not true. I did forget about diddy. Otherwise youre forgetting about characters like peach, jiggs, pika, etc. Yes characters like Luigi had prominent ground games, but you'll notice those sorts of characters would just get dominated by the MKs, fox's, and falcos with dominating airgames.

Also if it takes lame CGs to balance a characters ground game to air games, thats generally not good and sort of proves the point.
.

CGs are there for use. And they're a part of the ground game. Also, MK would have dominated these characters without an air game anyway. Peach and Jigglypuff were DESIGNED to be good in the air and bad on the ground

 

[JV5Chris]

I'm familiar with melee's pivoting and understood your last post. And as I explained in a previous post, pivoting in melee can only be done from an initial dash. Run and dash are two different mechanics in smash. If you must compare it to something compare it to brawl's pivot smash.

Sure you're not confusing Melee's pivot with Brawl's? Read the description here of Brawl's pivot Fsmash and this post on pivoting in Brawl. Some relevant quotes from them:

It's not so much a pivot like in Melee, but a combination of Foxtrotting and Half-stepping

The difference between Brawl pivoting and Melee pivoting, is that instead of changing which way you are dashing (which would be laggy in Brawl), you start another dash in the same direction as before, but simply stop it with a quick turnaround.

​

Melee's pivot relies on a window between switching directions, not dash start frames like Brawl. Smash 4's appears to work like Melee with a larger window.

I get the impression the Melee association bothers you here, but please look past it. This is just a good tech to expand on from a previous installment. It doesn't have to be brand new to be a solid addition.

Even if dash dancing came back, it would have no application to turn cancelling. Im also unsure where you came up with extra frames since all information states you can do it immediately on turn. In any case I understand people make mistakes understanding mechanics, I only advise you make sure you have a good grasp before sharing them with others or else other peeps have to extra work to correct the info, I dont post here for my health, lol.

I'm not sure you understand the relationship here between turning speed and application of this technique in an actual match. Lets say an opponent rolls behind you while you're mid run. Now pretend you want to change directions and perform a sliding pivot attack moving at them in response. May not work out too well considering the larger delay without dash-dancing like turning speeds. I'm not suggesting anything left field here, just pointing out the technique would be more adaptable with agile ground movement.

 

[Tagxy]

text

Melee's pivot occurs during a dash. Brawl's pivot also occurs during a dash. Turn Cancelling occurs from run. Its nothing about game association, you have a legitimate misunderstanding of the difference between dash and run -_-, your comparison of their inputs is like comparing dash dancing to aerial drifting. Smash 4 will most likely have its own way of dealing with dashes and pivoting.

Also you can't change directions mid-run in melee, if you try you will turn and have lag.

 

[JV5Chris]

Melee's pivot occurs during a dash. Brawl's pivot also occurs during a dash. Turn Cancelling occurs from run. Its nothing about game association, you have a legitimate misunderstanding of the difference between dash and run -_-, your analogy is like comparing dash dancing to aerial drifting. Smash 4 will most likely have its own way of dealing with dashes.

Also you can't change directions mid-run in melee, if you try you will turn and have lag.

You are correct that a pivot needs to be from a dash and not a run, but it's not like you can't already cancel a run in Melee. The benefits of Smash 4's incarnation are not uncharted territory, but it is a clear improvement on pivoting from in the past.

I'm still not sure how you can rationalize the movement in Smash 4 not impacting this tech's potential uses. As you mentioned Melee does have lag when changing directions, but it's such a trivial amount in comparison. I see no reason why improved agility wouldn't benefit the technique.

 

[Tagxy]

Im not necessarily for or against additional mobility options. Without delving into anything else, my main point is trying to draw comparisons between other things and saying "this is a better/worse version of that" is a sticky situation with turn canceling because its legitimately different enough that its application isnt so easily understood yet.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Im not necessarily for or against additional mobility options. Without delving into anything else, my main point is trying to draw comparisons between other things and saying "this is a better/worse version of that" is a sticky situation with turn canceling because its legitimately different enough that its application isnt so easily understood yet.

so am i able to use a tilt or smash in the direction im actually dashing or only the opposite direction.

 

[JV5Chris]

Im not necessarily for or against additional mobility options. Without delving into anything else, my main point is trying to draw comparisons between other things and saying "this is a better/worse version of that" is a sticky situation with turn canceling because its legitimately different enough that its application isnt so easily understood yet.

I agree, like I mentioned earlier, the whole reason i got involved with this conversation was some poor comparisons to begin with. (not by you btw)

 

[Bladeviper]

so am i able to use a tilt or smash in the direction im actually dashing or only the opposite direction.

i think its been said you can do it in ether direction but don't quote me on it

 

[Yodude57]

Whatever keeps the game from being brawl 2.0 is needed.

Well it's a good thing that it isn't.

 

[<π]

I wanna say stuff. I haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if I'm repeating things.

1.Melee I mained Samus (IMO the most brawl like character in melee) you (at least back in the day when old man <3 played) would NEVER EVER approach ANYONE with an aerial. You could use them defensively but very rarely as a way to get in. because samus is so floaty even durning fast falls anyone could very easily punish it. SO instead I would do the exact same thing I began to do once brawl came out walk, jab, tilt, and zone with projectiles and try and condition then into making a bad choices that I could capitalize on. I'm tooting my own horn here, but I was pretty good. By not approaching and using my amazing defensive tools I was able to do pretty well (at least in CT) Samus was never a get in a combo character she was a zone control character

2. In brawl I mained sheik (IMO the most melee like brawl character, lol) I approached ALL DAY with spaced fair and bair, because of its insanely low landing lag and range I couldn't be punished out of shield by anything. The few characters that had the range to grab me I could jab before their grab animation came out! Pretty safe sure, but it very rarely landed me much afterward, a little damage better positioning, a low damage follow up on lack luster DI. (With poor spacing, mind you, it lead to me getting grabbed or some other strong OOS option) I could also use bair poorly spaced intentionally and push them behind me to punish bad OOS habits! Mix ups in smash!
More often than that though I would walk, jab, tilt, and zone with projectiles! In this game sheik's tilts and jabs lead to big damage even kills at certain percents, but were just as safe and smooth on shield as her fair were at the cost of distance I could travel to set it up. I could punish bad habits with sheik's amazing dash attack and turn THAT into follow ups.

I say that to say this I guess. You don't and have never needed aerials to approach. You don't even NEED to approach. The ground approach game (footsies) can be fun and engaging! Keep away can be fun and engaging! And just like in 64, melee, and brawl I'm confident there will be tons of characters with tons of aerials that are fun and engaging to approach with.

3. Aerial Lag doesn't mean you can't combo. If I have 12 frames of landing lag (that's a lot by melee standards) but my opponent is in hit stun for 30 depending on DI I can follow up with all kinds of stuff right?

4. Not everyone needs do huge combos! Everyone is all about combos, I guess they are fun to watch but they've always been a secondary thing to me. If you have a starter that nets you 30 damage in a 5 hit combo its the exact same thing as a starter that nets you 30 damage in 2 hits. Sometimes it lends to the fantasy of a character. Sheik should be all up in people, she is a ninja! Ganndorf is a powerful dark wizard. looking at his fist the wrong way should blast you out of this world.

Another point I wanted to make is this. I saw someone talk about Marth's fair and my goodness... Marth was BROKEN in melee. when I played I always thought he was the most broken character in the game. (That's back when M2K mained him) His zone control is UNREAL fair is such an amazing move offensively and defensively it is like an impenetrable wall. Being able to use all of that power (A giant hit box you can't trade with) with no real consequence has always been in my mind unreasonable. Its like having his Ftilt and utilt have no end lag. I'm happy with this change.

 

[pants name guy]

Another point I wanted to make is this. I saw someone talk about Marth's fair and my goodness... Marth was BROKEN in melee. when I played I always thought he was the most broken character in the game. (That's back when M2K mained him) His zone control is UNREAL fair is such an amazing move offensively and defensively it is like an impenetrable wall. Being able to use all of that power (A giant hit box you can't trade with) with no real consequence has always been in my mind unreasonable. Its like having his Ftilt and utilt have no end lag. I'm happy with this change.

You have to realize Marth has his Brawl range (if not shorter than that) in smash 4. Further nerfs to his air game are at least imo unnecessary. Fair is a kill move now for some reason, so I guess more landing/ending lag makes sense with it. He's a very drastically different character, and nobody notable has played him well yet (except for that one cpu marth at the comic con tournament hahaha), so it's a bit difficult to really say much about him.

 

[<π]

Even still with brawl range that move is AMAZING. Being able to throw a wall of pain out like that with no window for a punish has been unreasonable SINCE melee in my opinion. Marth is still a very powerful character in brawl as well and its because of that crazy safe zoning game coupled with combos and kill power. It's a lot.

 

[HeavyLobster]

He's a very drastically different character, and nobody notable has played him well yet (except for that one cpu marth at the comic con tournament hahaha), so it's a bit difficult to really say much about him.

Which is why people need to settle down a little bit. He still has much better range and priority than most of the rest of the cast, and might wind up being a more ground-based character this time around, with Lucina being better in the air. He's been one of the best characters in the game in both Melee and Brawl, and probably won't be as terrible as some people seem to think.

 

[RanserSSF4]

While I do agree that landing lag should be improve slightly, I have one problem with some saying "every air attack should have no landing lag."

if you decide to give every air attack no landing lag or make them auto-cancel, you'll see high-power, KO moves being spammed more often than low-power moves. This result is that low-power air atttacks will be used mostly in combos and not for apporaches. In Melee, with L-cancelling, every air attack had pretty much equal knockback/KO power and were good approaches and KO moves.

I could be wrong, but what I'm saying is that even if you make all air attacks in Smash 4 auto-cancel or not, some air attacks will be more spammable/usable than others.

 

[topspin1617]

While I do agree that landing lag should be improve slightly, I have one problem with some saying "every air attack should have no landing lag."

if you decide to give every air attack no landing lag or make them auto-cancel, you'll see high-power, KO moves being spammed more often than low-power moves. This result is that low-power air atttacks will be used mostly in combos and not for apporaches. In Melee, with L-cancelling, every air attack had pretty much equal knockback/KO power and were good approaches and KO moves.

I could be wrong, but what I'm saying is that even if you make all air attacks in Smash 4 auto-cancel or not, some air attacks will be more spammable/usable than others.

I think that's right... while many have argued variable landing lag would cause some aerials to be spammed and others ignored, an across-the-board low landing lag would cause a similar phenomenon; possibly with different moves, but I certainly don't think it's an equalizer.

 

[JV5Chris]

(nevermind, mods feel free to clear this message. wrong thread)

 

[PCHU]

People forget that even high-power moves have certain aspects (hitboxes, active frames) that set them apart.
Were we to get across-the-board lower landing lag, I don't think it would negatively affect anything.
You're always going to have particular people that focus on a move because they find it useful and fast; as long as the aerial in question doesn't come off as broken in general (fast + strong + large hitbox + low/nonexistent cooldown), I don't see how there could be enough of an issue to where this isn't a good idea.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

People forget that even high-power moves have certain aspects (hitboxes, active frames) that set them apart.
Were we to get across-the-board lower landing lag, I don't think it would negatively affect anything.
You're always going to have particular people that focus on a move because they find it useful and fast; as long as the aerial in question doesn't come off as broken in general (fast + strong + large hitbox + low/nonexistent cooldown), I don't see how there could be enough of an issue to where this isn't a good idea.

The goal should be creating a question of utility, not a question of speed. The landing lag differentiation has no meaning if they just reduce it all by a fixed number, no matter how much it's reduced or added, people will still pick the "fastest" and least punishable one.

I for one am tired of short hop seizure gameplay.

 

[PCHU]

The goal should be creating a question of utility, not a question of speed. The landing lag differentiation has no meaning if they just reduce it all by a fixed number, no matter how much it's reduced or added, people will still pick the "fastest" and least punishable one.

I for one am tired of short hop seizure gameplay.

But keep in mind that every aerial has its purpose; I'm not always going to use dair/fair as Wario because they're quick and tough to punish (with good spacing) because not every situation calls for it.
Sometimes I'd rather nair on shield because it has a second, weaker hitbox that I can use as a soft setup for a grab/fsmash.
As Ike in PM, you -could- say there's no reason to ever not use his bair since it's fast, powerful, and can be hard to punish, but the fact of the matter is that aerials all have different uses for different occasions, and sometimes I'd rather risk the greater landing lag of his fair simply because I need the range.

I think people here forget that characters have a ground game as well; anyone who doesn't mix up their ground and aerial game as well as method of approach is more than likely going to get wrecked by someone experienced.
"Short hop seizure" is a strange way to put it, and I can see where you're coming from, but even watching a character like Melee Falco, whose dair is arguably his best aerial move, even he mixes up his game with nair, bair, and even uair if you're feeling like doing a fancy juggle, with some jabs thrown in to fish for a grab opening or tilts for poking.
Yes, there are people who get by with mainly his dair.
And?
There are hundreds of players that get by with mainly spamming the cstick.
What's wrong with having more options?

 

[topspin1617]

But keep in mind that every aerial has its purpose; I'm not always going to use dair/fair as Wario because they're quick and tough to punish (with good spacing) because not every situation calls for it.
Sometimes I'd rather nair on shield because it has a second, weaker hitbox that I can use as a soft setup for a grab/fsmash.
As Ike in PM, you -could- say there's no reason to ever not use his bair since it's fast, powerful, and can be hard to punish, but the fact of the matter is that aerials all have different uses for different occasions, and sometimes I'd rather risk the greater landing lag of his fair simply because I need the range.

I think people here forget that characters have a ground game as well; anyone who doesn't mix up their ground and aerial game as well as method of approach is more than likely going to get wrecked by someone experienced.
"Short hop seizure" is a strange way to put it, and I can see where you're coming from, but even watching a character like Melee Falco, whose dair is arguably his best aerial move, even he mixes up his game with nair, bair, and even uair if you're feeling like doing a fancy juggle, with some jabs thrown in to fish for a grab opening or tilts for poking.
Yes, there are people who get by with mainly his dair.
And?
There are hundreds of players that get by with mainly spamming the cstick.
What's wrong with having more options?

I think it's not really a question about more options. Yes, I suppose universal low landing lag would technically give you more viable aerial options. But as you yourself say, every aerial has its purpose. If a certain aerial has a good amount of landing lag... maybe it doesn't even matter because that's not an aerial you'd be short-hopping anyway. In my opinion, having to know the details of every move your character has and using that information to make the best decision moment by moment is a thoughtful, positive design.

Let me also clarify something. The point of this thread wasn't actually to say that aerials SHOULDN'T have their lag universally decreased; rather, it was more a response to those who say that lowering the landing lag on EVERY aerial is REQUIRED for Smash 4 to be good competitively. I just don't think that's true. I don't really have an issue with lowering all of the lag, but I don't think it's necessary. I think the game plays perfectly well with variable amounts of landing lag (preferably with each move having a lag amount that actually suits it); we could debate whether it's "better" with universally decreased landing lag or not, but I don't think there's a correct answer to that question. I just think it's 2 different takes on the game mechanics, neither really being superior. I definitely enjoy Melee/PM L-cancelling and the playstyle that reducing landing lag on every move allows; I also enjoy a slightly more... shall we say "thoughtful" system? I can't really think of a good way to say it, because it sounds like I'm implying Melee is mindless, which I'm definitely not saying. I guess it all really comes down to the simple statement that we know Smash can thrive with Melee's mechanics, but that is not the only way for Smash to thrive. I'm extremely optimistic about the game from what we've seen, and this thread is really about just saying that it's okay to compare Smash 4 and Melee, but singling out a mechanic and saying that Smash can't be good without it is (usually) not really a sound argument.

 

[PCHU]

Personally, after playing 64, Melee, Brawl, and Project M, I'd be totally cool if this game managed to hit a midground.
I like the pace of Melee and Project M ain't that bad either (if every character is at least A-B tier in Smash 4, it'll be pretty solid in my opinion), but I know that it ain't everyone's cup of tea.
While a universal lowering of the landing lag might not be the absolute best idea, it'd certainly be nice to have more control over one's character.
There's the idea of having a set amount of landing lag that sort of ticks down as the aerial goes through its animation so there's that element of timing and positioning, and that'd be cool.
I just don't want another Brawl situation where I can't really vary my approaches because most options are unsafe in general or have little reward (sometimes both).

 

[LancerStaff]

Personally, after playing 64, Melee, Brawl, and Project M, I'd be totally cool if this game managed to hit a midground.
I like the pace of Melee and Project M ain't that bad either (if every character is at least A-B tier in Smash 4, it'll be pretty solid in my opinion), but I know that it ain't everyone's cup of tea.
While a universal lowering of the landing lag might not be the absolute best idea, it'd certainly be nice to have more control over one's character.
There's the idea of having a set amount of landing lag that sort of ticks down as the aerial goes through its animation so there's that element of timing and positioning, and that'd be cool.
I just don't want another Brawl situation where I can't really vary my approaches because most options are unsafe in general or have little reward (sometimes both).

The problem with lessening the lag on just aerials, is that it makes aerials better then the ground attacks. It needs to be balanced. A character who's designed to have a balance in Melee favors aerials in practice. Balancing aerials, grounds, comboing, characters, and players is all a very delicate process, and you can't simply lower lag on aerials without unbalancing the whole thing or dragging the rest with it.

 

[PCHU]

The problem with lessening the lag on just aerials, is that it makes aerials better then the ground attacks. It needs to be balanced. A character who's designed to have a balance in Melee favors aerials in practice. Balancing aerials, grounds, comboing, characters, and players is all a very delicate process, and you can't simply lower lag on aerials without unbalancing the whole thing or dragging the rest with it.

Like I said earlier, I feel that people here focus a bit too much on aerials, and by that I mean that people actually do value their ground game.
The problem isn't that the air game is too good, it's that (a lot of the time) the character's ground game is lacking.
I use aerials way more as Wario because I typically don't find uses (on shield) for his tilts (and I never have a use for his utilt, which is just bad design in my opinion) and his jab is uncomfortably slow, so I typically just rush in for the grab than jab once or twice.
Not to mention his aerial mobility is beastly and I freaking love it, so I make the most out of it.

Now, let's take Ike for example.
I would say that his ground game is perhaps the most valuable part of this character simply because his jab sets up for pretty much everything he wants to go for, not to mention two of his smashes serves as antiairs/roll punishes and utilt is actually a useful juggling tool.
But his aerial game could use improvement; it's typically not very hard to punish missed aerials (especially in PM; missing the cancel on his fair or screwing up the timing so the hitbox doesn't even come out will most likely get you killed), and half of them have too much landing lag/are too slow overall to be comfortably integrated in general pressure, juggling, and poking (in my opinion, but I still love him).

But that's just Wario and Ike -- what about Kirby, a character that's generally known for being aerial-focused?
I say that Kirby is a brilliant example of a character done right -- a ground game built upon rather safe tilts, decent jabs, and throws that actually do something.
I can find a use for most of his moves, the reward generally scales well with the risk, and there usually isn't a time where I feel he has no answer.
But, all the same, he has his faults -- he's floaty, lightweight, has a tougher time vs disjointed hitboxes, and is susceptible to vertical KOs.

We tend to disagree on a lot of things, but I'd chalk it up to a difference in personal experiences.
Not every character is gonna be a Kirby, but I would like for every character, or at least most characters, to have enough options to where they have more answers than problems.
Some characters will be off balance when it comes to an aerial game vs ground game (Little Mac), but it'd be nice to have an aerial game that can be comfortably integrated with their ground game to provide a solid and varied offense.

 

[Sensei]

I like the idea of having variable landing lags for aerial attacks based on the amount of damage they do. I think it would be an interesting dynamic and require more strategy in your approaches and follow-ups.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

One thing I just want to say is that as far as combos are concerned, landing lag is really not an issue as long as hitstun is in proportion appropriately. In fact, the addition of landing lag to some particular aerials might be a balance decision in order to prevent certain combos from working, or to designate certain moves as finishers above all else. For example, it honestly looks like you can't DI a ground-bounce from a meteor smash, or at least not very much and probably not sufficiently to avoid getting combo'd. If that is the case, then some combos could be really ridiculous at higher percents without appropriate amounts of landing lag. Take DK's FAir. If you could just pull out an FAir on someone, land the sweetspot, and then just charge a Down Smash while they're in hitstun with no chance of escaping? Good grief. Or with Mario's Fair, it appears to combo out of the third hit of jab, and probably numerous other things too. If you could catch the foe in a UAir loop, end with FAir sweetspot, and catch them in another, inescapable (due to lack of DI) UAir loop (with time to reposition at higher percents) due to the ground bounce, that would probably generally be considered "broken".

On the other hand, there's Samus's DAir, which behaves similarly but looks to have less knockback. That is definitely a risk-reward setup move onstage, as it has long startup and a relatively short horizontal reach that makes it pretty unsafe if blocked or dodged, despite the short landing lag.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Based on early returns regarding demo frame data, the main concern with respect to landing lag is certain moves receiving disproportionate amounts of landing lag and being made less useful for no good reason, like Mario's Fair and Sheik's Dair. Most other moves seem to either have Melee's default landlag or are around halfway between that and L-cancelled lag, usually depending on how good they were in Brawl and what kind of playstyle they're supposed to represent. For example, a previously mid-tier rushdown character like Sheik has L-cancelled Melee lag on her Fair and reduced Bair and Nair lag as well, while a mid-high campy character like Toon Link basically has the same landlag that he did in Brawl, and Marth's landing lag has actually been slightly increased, though it's hard to tell whether this will balance him or overcorrect for his strengths. The traditional jack-of-all trades Mario has seen slight landlag reductions on his aerials overall, and I think that he'll serve as a good barometer for how the rest of the cast will turn out on average. I will say that if Sheik is representative of what rushdown characters will look like in Smash 4, then Melee players shouldn't worry too much about having viable characters that let them play the way they want to.

 

[JV5Chris]

Based on early returns regarding demo frame data, the main concern with respect to landing lag is certain moves receiving disproportionate amounts of landing lag and being made less useful for no good reason, like Mario's Fair and Sheik's Dair.

Exactly. Makes me wonder if some influential team member just really likes the look of these kind of moves getting stuck in the ground and wants to exaggerate it. It is possible that move balance is not the motivation behind these decisions.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Exactly. Makes me wonder if some influential team member just really likes the look of these kind of moves getting stuck in the ground and wants to exaggerate it. It is possible that move balance is not the motivation behind these decisions.

Then it might be that the landing lag isn't as high as it looks, either. If they want to exaggerate the impact of the move while still providing low landing lag, it's likely that a lot of aerials have serious IASA frames on their landing animations.

 

[JV5Chris]

Well that would assume they view the landing lag on these moves as disproportionate as well. Have there been any E3 demo impressions that specifically discuss IASA frames? Can't say I've read anything yet that suggests you can interrupt these cases early.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Well that would assume they view the landing lag on these moves as disproportionate as well. Have there been any E3 demo impressions that specifically discuss IASA frames? Can't say I've read anything that suggests you can interrupt these sort of cases early.

Well, Link's 40-frame DAir landing lag interrupts somewhere from frame 31 to frame 33, so there's that.

 

[JV5Chris]

Well, Link's 40-frame DAir landing lag interrupts somewhere from frame 31 to frame 33, so there's that.

Just saw that your post on that. It's hard to tell from a video if it's actually interruptible and even if it is, what the extent of it is. Keep in mind Link recovery is nearly finished:

(here's Link from that very segment, after pulling his sword up out of the ground, raising it, then about to wrap up the rest of the recovery animation)

Another factor is the shield. If you can interrupt it, there's no evidence it's works with any action. Not ruling out the possibility, but I don't think this is evidence of much at this point. Interesting though.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Just saw that your post on that. It's hard to tell from a video if it's actually interruptible and even if it is, what the extent of it is. Keep in mind Link recovery is nearly finished:

(here's Link from that very segment, after pulling his sword up out of the ground, raising it, then about to wrap up the rest of the recovery animation)

Another factor is the shield. If you can interrupt it, there's no evidence it's works with any action. Not ruling out the possibility, but I don't think this is evidence of much at this point.

Yeah, but it's certainly better than the original gif they were using which had Link wait the full time until back to idle before putting up his shield.

And yes, I actually checked it out frame-by-frame myself before posting what I did. Downloaded a Youtube video of some Treehouse footage and started taking it apart in iMovie.

 

[JV5Chris]

If there is indeed a large recovery difference, I wonder if there's some stricter form of l-canceling in the game for the sole purpose of entering a shield quicker. I'd much prefer being able to just act quicker out of these moves in the first place, but if they stay this slow it wouldn't hurt.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Nah, I saw Link jump out of BAir after 3 video frames of endlag (which is to say, 5-7 frames in-game). Also Link didn't shield out of it that time, he rolled.

 

[JV5Chris]

Now when you say 3 frames of video lag, are you sure the video is 30 fps and not 24 fps? It would be ideal if there were other videos aside from the treehouse that back all this up. It's a very bold claim when you consider Melee Fox's L-canceled B-air has more landing lag than that.

If you can indeed cancel with L, a roll could potentially fall into that.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Yeah, but it's certainly better than the original gif they were using which had Link wait the full time until back to idle before putting up his shield.

But that was the point though. I was trying to show the full animation, not how quickly you could get out of it. Like I said in the thread, trying to pinpoint the exact IASA frames for every aerial is a fool's errand when the game isn't even out yet especially if like myself, you have no experience in frame data collection and are just helping out with a project started by another smasher.

/whiny justification

 

[Turokman5896]

Shouldn't increased lag force players to be more precise with their aerials, as well as entice players to take advantage of characters' ground games.

 

[JV5Chris]

Shouldn't increased lag force players to be more precise with their aerials, as well as entice players to take advantage of characters' ground games.

Landing lag is across the map in Smash 4. When lots of landing lag exists on a move, it mostly encourages players to avoid using it if there's a possibility it will touch down. Not putting yourself in a position of extra vulnerability is playing smart.

 

[Veggi]

I think a major problem with this thread is people always think of the bad examples of laggy moves. Laggy aerials can still be practical in a match if they are well designed.

Examples of well designed laggy/high-start up aerials: King Dedede's fair, King Dedede's dair, King Dedede's up air, Ike's fair, Ness' dair, Toon Link's dair, Toon Link's uair, Diddy's fair, Kirby's dair, ROB's nair, and ROB's bair.

Bad examples: Mario's fair, most of Bowser's aerials, DK's fair and dair, ect.

Slow and laggy moves can definitely be considered good depending on how they're designed.