Is across-the-board low landing lag on aerials really necessary?

[Terotrous]

If you watched last evo's top 8 you wouldn't say that, I actually fell asleep during those matches and so did my fellow sf friends. That probably has more to do with the characters that are good in ultra atm than with the game itself, but over half of the matches in those finals were just atrocious to watch.

Are you kidding? This year's EVO Top16 for SF4 was one of the most fantastic sets of matches ever. To have someone put on such a strong performance with a character who has never won anything substantial was amazing to watch.

The reason short hop aerials are better approaches than ground attacks is mostly because of how powerful OoS options are in melee and brawl. Unfortunately it looks like OoS shield options are even better this time around meaning that without good aerial approaches, characters will lack good approaches altogether. But we shall see.

You can now do things like run up FTilt, though, and many character's FTilts are pretty safe if spaced properly. The fact that attacking from the ground is viable now is also going to make dash grabs much scarier too, because if you see someone do run up shield you don't know if they're going to grab or attack.

 

[JV5Chris]

i didnt say that spikes were overpowered, all i said was the mechanics have changed and now are useful if you spike them into the stage

It's always been useful to spike people into the stage.

Marth is top tier in both games and right now is holding the second highest placing numbers in both Melee and Brawl.

While I do think the dude is balanced for his spacing game if his trade offs give him a way someone can get in on him, I do think they were looking for ways to nerf him in some aspect in exhange for his high range and good kill power if he tippers.

Not that I agree his fair needs huge lag, I can see why they would go with something in that direction.

There are plenty of better ways to balance Marth than adding extra landing lag to his fair. Even just the decreased attack range is a notable nerf in itself. In this particular case, I do believe the devs have over-corrected. (Here is Ken's impressions on Smash 4 Marth btw)

You can now do things like run up FTilt, though, and many character's FTilts are pretty safe if spaced properly. The fact that attacking from the ground is viable now is also going to make dash grabs much scarier too, because if you see someone do run up shield you don't know if they're going to grab or attack.

It's not exactly new. Melee had 3 ways to do it in fact (crouch cancel, wavedash/waveland, or pivot). It does play big part in Melee's shield pressure game, especially for characters like Ganondorf that rely heavily on spacing in this way.

 

[HeavyLobster]

As far as spikes go onstage, it's worth noting that most of them have limited horizontal range, meaning it's difficult if not impossible to space them to be safe on block, and those with more horizontal range usually have some sort of drawback to keep them from being spammable. It's not a bad thing for this game if, say, the average F-air is safe on shield but offers little follow-up potential, while the average D-air is unsafe but is an effective combo starter. This kind of situation is good because both moves have utility, but neither one overshadows the other. Another interesting possibility for certain aerials, especially ones that act as powerful combo finishers, would be to increase the shield damage on them, but also make them very laggy. This means that they could be used on weakened shields to go for the shield break, but are very punishable if used on a full shield or whiffed. It would be very cool if going for the shield break was a viable strategy in the new Smash.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It's always been useful to spike people into the stage.



There are plenty of better ways to balance Marth than adding extra landing lag to his fair. Even just the decreased attack range is a notable nerf in itself. In this particular case, I do believe the devs have over-corrected. (Here is Ken's impressions on Smash 4 Marth btw)



It's not exactly new. Melee had 3 ways to do it in fact (crouch cancel, wavedash/waveland, or pivot). It does play big part in Melee's shield pressure game, especially for characters like Ganondorf that rely heavily on spacing in this way.

I'm not disagree it might have been a bit much but you can't deny him even with his nerfed state in Brawl was still a top tier character and he was in Melee before then.

I see exactly why they nerfed him the way they did, godly spacing game that could also have solid kill potential and shut out a lot of people against him when he played even decently. He has no projectile pressure, could be juggled very well when people got under him and his recovery just ok.

I'm guesing they are trying more tradeoffs for him since what they did before didn't really do much for his status from melee to brawl.

 

[Jaedrik]

i didnt say that spikes were overpowered, all i said was the mechanics have changed and now are useful if you spike them into the stage

I... haven't seen any mechanical change. If I'm not mistaken, quite a few spikes and meteors sent the person into a bounce state whence they hit the stage, and if they were grounded they would bounce up with only 80% of the velocity and all of the hitstun, allowing for a follow-up attack most of the time.
Forgive me for not trusting you, but could you provide video proof of some mechanical change, with a control of Melee/PM as a comparison? Because I have seen zero difference.

 

[Clavaat]

I believe different moves having different landing lag on different characters is the best possible way to approach the game. It makes sense to do it this way, and many, many other fighters follow this basis. Some moves will be more useful in certain scenarios, others won't be. That includes combos, counters, defense, and pressure.

By the looks of it, Smash 4 is shaping up to be a game in which you use your entire moveset as opposed to mostly aerials. We have Stale Moves and moves with varying landing lag. This forces the player to really think about what they're using, how often they are using, and when they are using it. Use a move too often, the damage is reduced, but may combo better from lowered DI. Jumping in will not necessarily be the best approach, just like it is in a lot of fighters, so now you have to rely on your ground game a bit more, while still following up with aerials (we've seen this in action already). We will still have to think about the advantages and disadvantages of being above/below certain characters, based on their strengths. I definitely look forward to this variety being used.

Mobility is important, but we still have plenty of mobility options available, regardless of universal landing lag.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

Competitively, yes.

Anything else, no.

 

[Bladeviper]

I... haven't seen any mechanical change. If I'm not mistaken, quite a few spikes and meteors sent the person into a bounce state whence they hit the stage, and if they were grounded they would bounce up with only 80% of the velocity and all of the hitstun, allowing for a follow-up attack most of the time.
Forgive me for not trusting you, but could you provide video proof of some mechanical change, with a control of Melee/PM as a comparison? Because I have seen zero difference.

http://berathen.com/2014/07/extensive-smash-4-demo-impression.php

 

[Terotrous]

It's not exactly new. Melee had 3 ways to do it in fact (crouch cancel, wavedash/waveland, or pivot). It does play big part in Melee's shield pressure game, especially for characters like Ganondorf that rely heavily on spacing in this way.

Yes, but it appears to be a fair bit faster now. I think pretty much every character will have some use for it in Smash 4.

 

[Jaedrik]

http://berathen.com/2014/07/extensive-smash-4-demo-impression.php

Neat.
Again, forgive me, but I fail to see how that makes auto-canceled aerials overpowered. For one, it can still be teched, and two, it's analogous to an aerial jab reset, which isn't too bad.

 

[ripa9]

I was thinking about this too just a while ago.

 

[Bladeviper]

Neat.
Again, forgive me, but I fail to see how that makes auto-canceled aerials overpowered. For one, it can still be teched, and two, it's analogous to an aerial jab reset, which isn't too bad.

i didnt say they were overpowered i responded to you saying that i would not spike people into the stage

 

[JV5Chris]

Yes, but it appears to be a fair bit faster now. I think pretty much every character will have some use for it in Smash 4.

Appears to be faster in what way exactly? I could see it being quicker than a crouch, but Melee's pivoit is instantaneous, that is if you can hit the small window. The wavedashing approach is also very quick, agile, and adaptable. Don't have to enter a running state either.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Competitive players seem to be more afraid of commitment than an eternal bachelor.

Seriously, reduced lag on aerials, better approach actions, ect, people just want to never commit to any action so they can pull out for everything. Why not make Smash Attacks less laggy? How about B attacks? Let's just remove lag altogether so you can cancel anything at any time for any reason?

Lag in fighting games is there for a reason. Without it, the game might be worse than Brawl and turn into a flinchy, twitchy mess. A lot of actions, including everyone's precious aerials, must come with some form of risk or be outright broken.

And no, a single frame of lag in which the person is left open is not enough.

EDIT: Also, has anyone given any thought to the possiblity that aerials in this game aren't meant to be an approach option? Maybe Sakurai is trying to give the ground game a chance, and aerials are meant to be used as follow ups?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

There is absolutely no need to be concerned about this, however. Many character's spikes/meteors have done the SAME exact thing in both Melee and Project M, and they are most certainly not overpowered at all.
Quit making a big deal out of what isn't, it's just another combo opportunity.

what your not understanding is that if you spiked someone one in the air they did not bounce.

 

[Jaedrik]

what your not understanding is that if you spiked someone one in the air they did not bounce.

Please read my above correspondence with @ Bladeviper .

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Please read my above correspondence with @ Bladeviper .

yeah i was reading through the thread after i commented and i was crap. Xd sorry.

 

[Senario]

Lag in fighting games is there for a reason. Without it, the game might be worse than Brawl and turn into a flinchy, twitchy mess. A lot of actions, including everyone's precious aerials, must come with some form of risk or be outright broken.

Well not really, there is some lag on some moves in fighting games but they are always balanced out by good amounts of blockstun and advantages on block or hit. If I played Jin in Blazblue and could not approach from the air and only could approach from the ground not only would my options be limited to two things (Grabs and ground approaches) but a simple crouch block would prevent everything. And I have no overheads to get in with that combo effectively. Forward light is slow and has a one frame advantage on hit, more lag exists than the amount of frames you get bonus even for hitting. Therefore nobody uses it to combo because you cannot get out of the lag without investing a TON of meter for what is essentially a meh combo. You can invest half the meter and get a much faster overhead that can be combo'ed more easily.

Having immense lag on everything isn't a main feature of fighting games, and I suggest you play some traditional 2D fighting games before you say it is. Name some fighting games where lag is a main feature of the game as opposed to things that can be tossed out even if they are blocked. Being able to punish EVERYTHING is bad, and when your options that are good are limited it becomes super easy to predict what you are going to do. Low landing lag in melee still had a good amount of punishable moves and a good amount that was safe to approach with. And then a whole other group that isn't ok to approach with but isn't bad for lag (marth up air fox up air).

Again, it isn't reducing lag to zero. It is having not a ton of it so you can pressure your opponent and get rewards for being offensive rather than just waiting for an opponent to throw out a move then punish them for the lag. Because that is exactly what you seem to be suggesting.

 

[LancerStaff]

Having immense lag on everything isn't a main feature of fighting games, and I suggest you play some traditional 2D fighting games be-

You lost me there. SSB certainly isn't a traditional fighter, that's for sure.

Anyway, no, low landing lag isn't necessary. It's necessary to balance air and ground combat, just like it is to balance offense and defense and to balance characters. A truly balanced game wouldn't favor any single aspect.

 

[pants name guy]

Which characters, aside from Marth, actually suffer from problems with landing lag? Bowser certainly doesn't, which is definitely saying something. Also keep in mind that a tipped fair from Marth actually has legitimate kill potential now (as do other moves such as counter), and that from what we see in her trailer, Lucina appears nigh on lagless in the air. Missiles, lasers, and arrows no longer cancel on the ground (which is a similar and just as effectual nerf), but from what I'm hearing, many other characters still have multiple viable options to go with short hops.

 

[Senario]

You lost me there. SSB certainly isn't a traditional fighter, that's for sure.

Anyway, no, low landing lag isn't necessary. It's necessary to balance air and ground combat, just like it is to balance offense and defense and to balance characters. A truly balanced game wouldn't favor any single aspect.

I was responding to somebody who said look at other fighting games as to why lag on moves is important so it isn't really "losing you" so much as it wasn't intended toward you. It shouldn't be long landing lag, Ideally in a perfect world where you spend just as much time on the ground as you do in the air ground and air combat need to be balanced the same way. I don't think they are akin to balancing defense and offense as this is not the perfect situation nor an effectively similar case. Smash is a game where people are sent UP INTO THE AIR eventually after you do some ground combos/grabs. Low landing lag is ideal so you can follow up with air moves because usually you don't have that much reach to hit above you for combos.

Low landing lag does not mean poor air balance as ground and air based combat are based on completely different things. Ground based combat is more focused on grabs, edgeguards, and reads to throw out smashes or tilts. Air based combat is following up after their percent gets high enough so that they do not stay on the ground. A good example is the Marth Fox matchup in melee. At low percents you can grab and upthrow several times into up tilts but eventually the percent gets high enough so that you cannot follow up on the ground. So you need to go into the air. Ground based game is pretty good as long as basic movement options like dash dancing are in. But air based game is only good if you have a reduced amount of landing lag because doing full hops is not viable as it sends you too high up and using your second jump is usually a bad idea if you get caught and launched off stage.

 

[LancerStaff]

I was responding to somebody who said look at other fighting games as to why lag on moves is important so it isn't really "losing you" so much as it wasn't intended toward you. It shouldn't be long landing lag, Ideally in a perfect world where you spend just as much time on the ground as you do in the air ground and air combat need to be balanced the same way. I don't think they are akin to balancing defense and offense as this is not the perfect situation nor an effectively similar case. Smash is a game where people are sent UP INTO THE AIR eventually after you do some ground combos/grabs. Low landing lag is ideal so you can follow up with air moves because usually you don't have that much reach to hit above you for combos.

Low landing lag does not mean poor air balance as ground and air based combat are based on completely different things. Ground based combat is more focused on grabs, edgeguards, and reads to throw out smashes or tilts. Air based combat is following up after their percent gets high enough so that they do not stay on the ground. A good example is the Marth Fox matchup in melee. At low percents you can grab and upthrow several times into up tilts but eventually the percent gets high enough so that you cannot follow up on the ground. So you need to go into the air. Ground based game is pretty good as long as basic movement options like dash dancing are in. But air based game is only good if you have a reduced amount of landing lag because doing full hops is not viable as it sends you too high up and using your second jump is usually a bad idea if you get caught and launched off stage.

Your idea of "ideal" is just that: An idea. Aerials have been incredibly dominant in SSB, and it's about time they were balanced. Air vs. ground needs to be balanced just as much as offense vs. defense. Otherwise, almost everybody adopts the same stinking strategy. No, low landing lag doesn't mean poor balance, but it doesn't mean great balance either. Either A: nerf air to be equivalent to ground or B: buff ground to be equivalent to air. Solely buffing ground would of resulted in a twitch fest that resembled fast mode, so nerfing air was necessary. It's looking like there's going to be designated ground and air characters this time around, and designated offense and defense characters. I'd rather have balance then all the best characters being the ones that can effectively fight in the air, spamming safe moves to get in edge in.

 

[topspin1617]

Then you run into the problem if it isnt a viable approach option the opponent will have a small list of things they know you can approach with and people wont use that approach, the options you do have are easily read. Other fighters have a multitude of ways of getting in. Cross ups, instant overheads through tiger knee moves, simply dashing in, air dashing in for an air move for an overhead. I am not sure how solid the comparison to other fighters is for air moves not being used as approaches seeing as other fighters have a similar system where air approaches are fairly good due to overheads. Ground approaches generally are ok too but there arent a lot of fast overheads, low hits end up making ground approaches good but air approaches are still fairly dominant because most ground approaches can just be crouch blocked. Look at any marvel game or blazblue they have a lot of air approaches for crossups and overheads.

The only difference with smash is that once you get in the combo system works in reverse compared to other fighters. They dont stay on the ground as you combo them they get launched in the air.

Essentially you should ideally be able to approach with anything. Ground game are tilts and smashes plus grabs people tend to forget melee had a lot of ground based combos or options even if you had to use a jump or wavedash they still take place on the ground.

Having one or two aerials that aren't good approach options will not make the approach too predictable. There's still plenty of options: a different aerial, dash attack, dash shield (grab), dash pivot-cancel ftilt/fsmash, dash cancel usmash... there's still tons of choices. A couple laggy aerials will not change that.

 

[topspin1617]

Well not really, there is some lag on some moves in fighting games but they are always balanced out by good amounts of blockstun and advantages on block or hit. If I played Jin in Blazblue and could not approach from the air and only could approach from the ground not only would my options be limited to two things (Grabs and ground approaches) but a simple crouch block would prevent everything. And I have no overheads to get in with that combo effectively. Forward light is slow and has a one frame advantage on hit, more lag exists than the amount of frames you get bonus even for hitting. Therefore nobody uses it to combo because you cannot get out of the lag without investing a TON of meter for what is essentially a meh combo. You can invest half the meter and get a much faster overhead that can be combo'ed more easily.

Having immense lag on everything isn't a main feature of fighting games, and I suggest you play some traditional 2D fighting games before you say it is. Name some fighting games where lag is a main feature of the game as opposed to things that can be tossed out even if they are blocked. Being able to punish EVERYTHING is bad, and when your options that are good are limited it becomes super easy to predict what you are going to do. Low landing lag in melee still had a good amount of punishable moves and a good amount that was safe to approach with. And then a whole other group that isn't ok to approach with but isn't bad for lag (marth up air fox up air).

Again, it isn't reducing lag to zero. It is having not a ton of it so you can pressure your opponent and get rewards for being offensive rather than just waiting for an opponent to throw out a move then punish them for the lag. Because that is exactly what you seem to be suggesting.

Whose saying we want "immense lag on everything"?

I was responding to somebody who said look at other fighting games as to why lag on moves is important so it isn't really "losing you" so much as it wasn't intended toward you. It shouldn't be long landing lag, Ideally in a perfect world where you spend just as much time on the ground as you do in the air ground and air combat need to be balanced the same way. I don't think they are akin to balancing defense and offense as this is not the perfect situation nor an effectively similar case. Smash is a game where people are sent UP INTO THE AIR eventually after you do some ground combos/grabs. Low landing lag is ideal so you can follow up with air moves because usually you don't have that much reach to hit above you for combos.

Low landing lag does not mean poor air balance as ground and air based combat are based on completely different things. Ground based combat is more focused on grabs, edgeguards, and reads to throw out smashes or tilts. Air based combat is following up after their percent gets high enough so that they do not stay on the ground. A good example is the Marth Fox matchup in melee. At low percents you can grab and upthrow several times into up tilts but eventually the percent gets high enough so that you cannot follow up on the ground. So you need to go into the air. Ground based game is pretty good as long as basic movement options like dash dancing are in. But air based game is only good if you have a reduced amount of landing lag because doing full hops is not viable as it sends you too high up and using your second jump is usually a bad idea if you get caught and launched off stage.

You keep saying this, not seeming to understand that if you're following up after launching them, then you're going to be IN THE AIR so landing lag isn't likely to come into the picture. Sure, there are platforms etc... but in that case, just go for your less laggy moves if you want to try to keep the combo going, or go for the finisher if you want to launch them.

 

[Tagxy]

I agree with the notion that aerials have been pretty dominating in the smash series.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

The best way to put an emphasis on ground game is to increase hitstun and shield stun. Grounded stun needs to increase, and shield stun must be substantial.

A lot of traditional fighting games balanced out blocking and attack strings: It's called advantage on block. Take tick throws in Street Fighter for example. A tick throw is when you throw out a quick normal, then quickly walking up to the opponent and grabbing him. For a character like Ryu, a common set up would be a crouching light punch, walk, then grab. This works because, 1. The attack comes out fast, and the cool down is fast and 2. There is enough hitstun from the attack so that the opponent will be in a defensive position until Ryu is within grab range. Using a move such as a crouching fierce on block cannot produce the same results because the stun on block produced isn't enough to supplement the cool down of the move. In other words, the opponent will probably be out of stun, and you will still be stuck in the attack animation, leaving you open to a punish.

So, how can you implement a similar system in smash? By increasing shield stun, but keeping the current shield drop speed, and also introducing adequate push back on shield for attacks.

Keep in mind that in traditional fighting games, there is little to no cool down from leaving a defensive position, so in theory this should balance things out. If a character like Fox or Mario jabs your shield there should be enough stun on shield for you to be able to be able to initiate a grab, but by the time your attack ends, your opponent can respond appropriately, possibly by dropping the shield and jabbing him out, or with a character like Megaman , an up tilt, because it comes out instantly, and can possibly punish the opponent if they decided to throw out a tilt during the block stun.

For example, let's say Marth is using one of his safer aerials on a shield opponent: a SH Nair. If the move tips the opponents shield , it does a solid amount of stun, but it pushes the opponent back a good deal, enough that the opponent would be able to follow up with something like a Forward smash without advancing. You can dash in during shield stun with a dash attack or a dashing dancing blade. It you tipper the dash attack, the opponent will remain in shield stun, but the cool down of the attack vs the stun will put you and your opponent in 50/50 position, and since the dash attack pushed the opponent just out of range of most of your normal attacks, you can use shield breaker, which can be punished. So if your opponent responds accordingly he can roll, jump or spot dodge. By this logic, the safest option would be opting for dancing blade since it's guaranteed pressure, but it has significant cool down and Marth steps forward during the attack, so unless Marth opts to use the down variant of the move on the third attack(which makes your character step backwards), your opponent will definitely be able to punish you. Your choice of attacks in this situation dictates how much pressure you can put on your opponent and your ability to gauge whether or not you should play with tact and space your moves or just go for the automated cop out. With shields being able to drop so fast, your opponent will be able to do more than shield grab or up B out of shield.

Fixing smash's ground game all depends on how they tweak the defensive options.

 

[Terotrous]

Appears to be faster in what way exactly? I could see it being quicker than a crouch, but Melee's pivoit is instantaneous, that is if you can hit the small window. The wavedashing approach is also very quick, agile, and adaptable. Don't have to enter a running state either.

I was mainly talking about Wavedash, which has a 13-18 frame window before you can act, depending on your character's jump speed. Shield drop / Pivot Cancel in this game seems to be a fair bit faster than that, even for Bowser!

 

[MudkipUniverse]

Sounds like the exact opposite of L-cancelling :O

 

[JV5Chris]

I was mainly talking about Wavedash, which has a 13-18 frame window before you can act, depending on your character's jump speed. Shield drop / Pivot Cancel in this game seems to be a fair bit faster than that, even for Bowser!

If you wish to draw that comparison you should also consider the run startup frames and delay before a pivot is possible. Also the delay if you needed to change run directions. When you take the entire sequence into account and factor in agility, it really doesn't appear to be quicker. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a good addition, but lets not get ahead of ourselves here.

As far as the shield drop goes, I'm not convinced it's any faster than canceling with a crouch. Certainly a lot safer of an approach though.

 

[Tagxy]

stuff

Thats a poor comparison actually. To wave dash in melee and follow up with any useful ground option the lag frames need to occur near the opponent. Wavedashing/landing may have more uses, but if turn canceling where in melee itd easily be the better option for grounded moves in most cases.

Also you can only pivot out of dash, which while useful is more limiting and highly dependant on having a good dash in the first place.

 

[Senario]

Thats a poor comparison actually. To wave dash in melee and follow up with any useful ground option the lag frames need to occur near the opponent. Wavedashing/landing may have more uses, but if turn canceling where in melee itd easily be the better option for grounded moves in most cases.

Also you can only pivot out of dash, which while useful is more limiting and highly dependant on having a good dash in the first place.

In melee you can crouch cancel a dash and get something very similar result to turn cancelling. It isnt as big a deal as people are making it out to be compared to what we had already.

 

[Tagxy]

Actually its the opposite, people havent made a big deal about it I feel, because some want to put it down or thats their first instinct in analyzing mechanics in smash 4 leading to conclusions they want rather than fully drawing out the implications and possibilities (imo).

There really has been no mechanic like it before, turning was pretty much useless and never done in any smash game because there was very little point to it (brawl had pivot grabs and RAR though so there were a couple uses). Not only does turning provide you the fastest opportunity to attack out of run that smash has ever had, it does so while your momentum reverses in the entirely opposite direction.

And as someone mentioned crouching is slower and doesnt apply the same uses.

 

[JV5Chris]

Thats a poor comparison actually. To wave dash in melee and follow up with any useful ground option the lag frames need to occur near the opponent. Wavedashing/landing may have more uses, but if turn canceling where in melee itd easily be the better option for grounded moves in most cases.

Also you can only pivot out of dash, which while useful is more limiting and highly dependant on having a good dash in the first place.

I never said it was a good comparison. I was simply pointing out some of the flaws with building this technique up as something new and improved over past ATs. I do believe it is a good change for Smash 4, but the applications will be fewer and more situational, especially if the dash-dancing constraints go unchanged.

 

[Tagxy]

I never said it was a good comparison. I was simply pointing out some of the flaws with building this technique up as something new and improved over past ATs. I do believe it is a good change for Smash 4, but the applications will be fewer and more situational, especially if the dash-dancing constraints go unchanged.

It is very clearly something new over past AT's, and your general statements about their "fewer and situational applications" doesnt mean anything with 0 analysis behind it. Its as helpful as me saying "Turn Dashing is the greatest thing evar and will be better than wave dashing and dash dancing combined". Even from a more subjective perspective turn canceling can be used in conjunction with so many other techniques that calling it limited this early definitely seems silly. As is the comment on dash-dancing which isnt pertinent to turn canceling's utility. All Im asking is that peeps not hate (aka be critical) on things just for the sake of hating(aka being critical), and draw thoughts out to their full conclusion.

 

[JV5Chris]

It is very clearly something new over past AT's, and your general statements about their "fewer and situational applications" doesnt mean anything with 0 analysis behind it. Its as helpful as me saying "Turn Dashing is the greatest thing evar and will be better than wave dashing and dash dancing combined". Even from a more subjective perspective turn canceling can be used in conjunction with so many other techniques that calling it limited this early definitely seems silly. As is the comment on dash-dancing which isnt pertinent to turn canceling's utility. All Im asking is that peeps not hate (aka be critical) on things just for the sake of hating(aka being critical), and draw thoughts out to their full conclu

1. Again, pivoting is an existing technique from Melee. You slide in Smash 4 and the execution looks easier, but it's still very much the same idea. It's not new to the franchise, but there's nothing wrong with that. Really not important where it comes from.

2. Pivoting attacks goes hand in hand with dashing. Given you're not as agile changing directions from a dash in Smash 4, it's going to require extra setup frames to get this to execute with the intended slide direction mid battle. That does scale back its potential applications a bit. How much? I'm not sure, but it will have some impact on when it's practical to perform the technique.

3. I think it's a very positive change for Smash 4. I'm not criticizing the technique, just pointing out some faults with claims made about it relative to past abilities.

 

[Tagxy]

stuff

I'm familiar with melee's pivoting and understood your last post. And as I explained in a previous post, pivoting in melee can only be done from an initial dash. Run and dash are two different mechanics in smash. If you must compare it to something compare it to brawl's pivot smash. Even if dash dancing came back, it would have no application to turn cancelling. Im also unsure where you came up with extra frames since all information states you can do it immediately on turn. In any case I understand people make mistakes understanding mechanics, I only advise you make sure you have a good grasp before sharing them with others or else other peeps have to extra work to correct the info, I dont post here for my health, lol.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Yo guys.

People talking about air games dominating SSB as a whole. Most of the people saying that are Brawl players with a few melee and PM players complaining too. And I ask you this.

MELEE PLAYERS
REMEMBER LUIGI'S WAVEDASHES AND WAVEDANCES? Remember that ground game?

Sheik's tilts and grabs. Remember that ground game?

Marth's cgs on FFers/main combo starter on ground with up tilt, wavedances, dash dances, Ken compared it to ice skating. Remember that ground game?

Fox's waveshine. Remember that ground game?

Brawl PLAYERS
How could you forget?
MK's tilt game. Remember that ground game?

Snake's grenades, mines, c4s, tilts, mortal shell. Remember that ground game?

Olimar's grab chaingrabs and spammy smashes. Remember that ground game?

Diddy's TWO bananas, DACUS, Glide tosses. Zinoto's highly technical 1 banana infinite. Remember that ground game?

Ice Climbers' chaingrabs. Remember that ground game?

You guys forgot. Melee and Brawl had characters that were their extremely reliant on their powerful ground games. Sheik's air game would be meh without her powerful grounded setups. Spacies would beat Marth 7:3 if there were no chaingrabs. Diddy Kong's top tier placement was all because of his bananas and the guaranteed follow ups he got with them. Snake's recovery is easily edgeguarded, his mobility is below average and his air game sucks, and he has no chaingrabs either. But his powerful ground game netted him second place on the SSBB tier list for nearly three years, where in the sixth tier list, Diddy Kong overtook him BECAUSE of his perceived even stronger ground game. And then Ice Climbers overtook HIM because of the 0-death chaingrab.

In fact lemme show you a Brawl clip. Apex 2013 Crew Battle, skip to 4:15. ANTi and Otori literally played footsies for the entire match. Even the commentators said Otori had outpoked the poker (ANTi). MK's air game was great, but his ground game would have made him top tier anyway.

Everyone forgetting the fact that ground based combat was prevalent in previous smash games.

 

[kisamefishfries]

The if its not melee its bad mentality is really becoming an issue. Its not brawl. Its not melee. And you're right, there doesn't have to be a short hop combo starter for the game to be good. People are so against trying new things that they are blinded to the good changes.

 

[Senario]

The if its not melee its bad mentality is really becoming an issue. Its not brawl. Its not melee. And you're right, there doesn't have to be a short hop combo starter for the game to be good. People are so against trying new things that they are blinded to the good changes.

Nobody is saying "If it is not melee it is bad" lol.

 

[victinivcreate1]

The if its not melee its bad mentality is really becoming an issue. Its not brawl. Its not melee. And you're right, there doesn't have to be a short hop combo starter for the game to be good. People are so against trying new things that they are blinded to the good changes.

Space animals are the only characters that start combos with short hop. I believe Umbreon and Mew2King said Marth should never approach with aerials. Sheik is never approaching with short hops. Only spacies and maybe Falcon do. But even then, Falcon has better approach options.