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Brawl plays like Melee without wavedash.
I'm not going to bother with the insane generalizations or the wrong information and "liking the game the wrong way" in the rest of your post, but I'll address this point.
Restrictions are the basis for which skill is even observed. If you can do anything...why would it be impressive for you to do anything?
Bowser's FAir is not too powerful and is, in fact, his auto-cancel aerial approach. So I hardly think that it's a good example, though I do see what you're getting at. Link's DAir, however, is a good example of such a move in that there is a very high reward for successfully landing that spike at the start of the move. That spike is both a kill move off-stage and a combo tool on-stage, and deals quite a decent chunk of damage.
This very nicely sums up pretty much exactly what I've been trying to say.
You act as though Melee was any different, and there were no drawbacks or cons or checks and balances in that game because the game had less lag on aerials. I'm not really seeing your point, the player will be tested regardless of whether or not this lag exists.
Both sides accuse each other of wanting an extreme, regardless of the situation. And neither side does a good job of discussing the pros or cons of a middle ground.
If it played anything like melee it would be a good game and not borderline dead.
Fixing brawl aint a bad thing, it's not brawl 2.0, it's what brawl should have been.
You are correct in that Melee tests you similarly, however Sakurai has already made this quite clear, but Melee tests you in the wrong way.
I think most of us wish for aggression to be significant. But I for one think there are ways to do it without making aerial approach the most viable option. For instance, what if endlag on dash attacks was reduced? Or what if shields went back to their N64 levels of deployment and dropping lag? There are other ways to encourage aggression without making a specific type of attack almost universally safer.
Right; why do short-hopped aerials (where you can pick any aerial you want at any time) have to be the only way to do it? Why can't we balance ground approaches and aerial approaches, so there are moves that are good for each, and decisions not so good for each?
I'm going to start calling out posts that refer to landing lag as a universal entity in Smash 4, like this one.
Well, we don't want to run into the issue of having moves that are considered generally bad, whether for damage or hit or lag properties. We want all moves to offer something roughly equivalent, and the decision on the player to be to figure out within a few brief moments which of those options will result in the enemy flying in the desired direction. The risk factor should be what accounts for the enemy's skill, as if you choose the move that spikes the enemy on hit, but they avoid, then you should be punishable for failing a less-safe option. While I like L-canceling as a way of adding more technical skill to the game, it is purely technical skill, and not strategic skill. There is "never", to my knowledge, a time that you would not want to L-cancel your ending lag. Sakurai intends for the games to be competitive, but accessible, and technical skill gaps are not conducive to his goals.
This. I just watched quite a few videos from VGBootcamp where Shiek and Zelda have almost non-existent landing lag and quite a few aerials (those are the only two i've gotten to so far). I think it's safe to say certain characters will have low landing lag while others have large amouts of lag. I like this because every aspect of the characters are being changed for balance purposes.
This is an important point that no one ever talks about, that I've seen. Playing high tech skill characters in Melee for years has taken a toll on M2K's hands, for one. Now it's been a long time since I've heard anything about this, and I don't know how he is now or if he sought medical attention or what, but there has been the rumor that he has favored Marth over all other characters due to the ability to play more slowly and still get the results he wants. Obviously M2K loves to switch characters to give himself the advantage, but when he's able to, in Melee, he favors Marth. I don't watch all his matches; I haven't kept a running tab on how many times he uses specific characters; I'm just saying what I've heard and seen. Obviously M2K is unique individual who doesn't think or play exactly like any other player, who may not have the same kind of physical limitations as some people like SilentWolf who have been playing Fox for many years, etc.
Of course we do not want any move to be "bad" in all regards. Every move should have its place in gameplay, be it as a combo starter, combo finisher, utility in continuing a combo, or as a punishment tool or to land a KO. Brawl had this problem: there were moves that were, plain and simple, bad. Bad as in "do not use this move for anything other than reducing staleness of other moves" bad, or even "do not use this move even for reducing staleness of other moves". For example, Sonic's dash attack was weak enough to be unusable because you could be punished despite successfully landing the hit.
I think the only problem with the health argument is that nobody is asking the game to be super technical. Low landing lag is low landing lag regardless of input. It isn't the game's fault that it causes hand problems, that is due to the players pushing the upper limits of the game very hard. That is no excuse for TAKING OUT mechanics compared to Simplifying them so that those at the top don't ruin their hands mastering the game and those at the bottom can learn to be better players if they so choose.
You are correct. I admit that the topic and my post were off-topic, but I was just so excited to see the topic brought up that I jumped on the opportunity.
Landing lag (present or not) is not relevant to depth. It's a design preference (mostly) of Melee purists. This extends to l-cancelling, as there is a countless profundity of reasons it is a useless mechanic that creates no depth.
Yes, of course. I brought up M2K, but how could I forget Sakurai himself, who has had severe hand and arm injury throughout this whole process.
Not to derail even further, but he got that injury during melee's development didn't he?
L-Canceling is bad (in melee) because there is no risk associated with it. In TVC you can baroque. but you give up red health. In MVC 3 you can x factor cancel,b, but give up x factor. What do you give up that's serious when you l-cancel.? There's never a situation in which you don't want to l-cancel. In MVC 3 you have to think carefully and make a serious risk when you give up x-factor. The same does not apply to l canceling. There should just be no landing lag at all, give l-canceling risky use (lowers your knockback when doing it), or limit the number of l-cancels per match.
lol to my ignore list you go.
Yup! It was primarily developed on account of Melee's development cycle.
It doesn't play anything like Melee, that's why it's a good game, and last time I checked Brawl's still hot at parties and friendly Smashfests, of course you will be biased and only talk about the competitive community.
That's fair, I suppose. But I don't see how any of that has to do with what I've said. They've already removed the biggest causes of how technical Melee was, l-canceling and other techs, the gravity was much more forgiving, the entire pace of the game is slower. I'm not defending l-canceling as a mechanic either and I never have. Lowering aerial landing lag wouldn't really make the game more difficult, certainly not to the point of it being physically harmful.
There's you hitting your opponent's shield and messing up your timing, for one I guess. I'm not sure how this is really relevant. L-cancelling as a mechanic is fundamentally flawed but there is nothing wrong with what it was designed to do. You don't l-cancel for a risk/reward situation, you l-cancel to hopefully lower the risk and increase the reward in a situation you're already in.
D-idara
Someone talking about the competitive scene for a competitive game on a competitive website? How terrible!
i doubt they will never get used, they just won't be used as an approach or during a short hop, which seems fine if they are kill moves
Hitting your opponents shied is a guess and not guaranteed. At least you can admit L-Canceling is flawed. Look at this from this perspective though: Imagine in MVC 3 you could x factor cancel moves without giving up x factor? There would be no risk associated with any move and no reason not to x factor cancel.
Logically you are correct but you are pretty much neglecting a pretty important mechanic in Smash 4...stale move negation.
No jabs in high level Melee? What in the world are you talking about? Melee has jab canceling, and characters like Fox, Falco, and especially Sheik, with hand down the best jab in the game, can use it to set up anything. Waveshine into jab with Fox leads into thunders combo, Jabs with Falcon lead to a free grab that can go into a knee combo. Jab resets in Melee are some of the most common forms of punishing a missed tech that can lead to a free whatever at low percents. Being able to do things like SH Bair>wavedash/land>jab>grab are very common and practical with everyone. The Top Yoshi player aMSa is infamous for his jab set ups that lead into combo strings. Have you even watched a match of Competitive Melee?
Sorry, I was more referring to full jab combos over single jabs. I realized soon after I posted it that my previous statement was incorrect. Like in many fighting games, the single jab sees a lot of use. But the thing that makes Smash somewhat unique — that full jab combo — doesn't see much use at all. Unless you're Brawl Ike, who charges quickdraw so that he just barely doesn't reach you and then goes for the jab combo. Or Brawl Lucario, who uses a jab x2 > crouch-cancel > jab x2 loop on an airborne foe to force them to waste their midair jump because with perfect timing at the right percents (percents on Lucario, that is) it is otherwise inescapable.
Cutting an attacks lag by half is in no way equivalent to being able to interrupt and cancel out the entire attack animation.
