BPx
Smash Lord
@DeLux: Thank you.
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Iowa-Joker's Monthly"WHY SO SERIOUS?"#28 Nov 22th
- Thread starter Joker490Frozen
- Start date
MegaRobMan
Smash Hero
Just ban all characters not Wolf or Link.
Soran
Smash Ace
Marth is the best character.
WHEEW!
WHEEW!
ngamer3k
Smash Ace
You could play JUMP Ultimate Stars. Get to it.
BOLT08
Smash Lord
Why the f*ck don't we all just start playing melee again?
Cook
Smash Master
Isn't that Jump game, like, not in America? There kinda has to be a community for me to play a game...
And Melee is too hard. Plus hitstun pisses me off.
And Melee is too hard. Plus hitstun pisses me off.
Joker490Frozen
Smash Champion
First off I don't think M2K will play with Diddy because he doesn't like the char plus he hates items >.<
I give you Olimar but not so sure about DDD since you pretty much play that MU like you will against IC which he has a decent MU however he does do bad against some chars.
The fact that Snake has no air game means nothing cause that's how the char is suppose to be he has no business doing aerials unless you are me XP but because he's not an aerial char he has moves that stops others from taking the air or at least tries >.<
Grenades: Makes it harder to approach really from both the ground and air.
Mines(Dsmash): Same thing but if you are too focus on the nade you may land on it.
Mortar(Usmash): Even though other moves can destroy it you can punish the lag plus some rather not take their chances.
Utilt: That ridiculous range and priority makes it perhaps its best anti air.
Also he can built walls that make it harder to approach both ways with platforms mine at the bottom C4 on the platform above it with nades(Wall of Fire) but with a plain stage nades toss up while Usmash makes a pretty good wall.
BUT even before the game came out watching the first trailer for Brawl and hearing the codec sound I was no way and right there I knew I was going to main Snake no matter what good or bad plus I did it in Melee with Link ^.^
Well that's kinda the whole point you quit one game to play another one that plays different otherwise why even bother plus if you start disliking one game you move to another one that's more enjoyable for you ^.^The problem with just switching to another fighter if you get tired of Smash/the Smash community is that there aren't other fighters like Smash.
Don't forget Marth with MK ban he suppose to have all 5/5 MU.
I give you Olimar but not so sure about DDD since you pretty much play that MU like you will against IC which he has a decent MU however he does do bad against some chars.
The fact that Snake has no air game means nothing cause that's how the char is suppose to be he has no business doing aerials unless you are me XP but because he's not an aerial char he has moves that stops others from taking the air or at least tries >.<
Grenades: Makes it harder to approach really from both the ground and air.
Mines(Dsmash): Same thing but if you are too focus on the nade you may land on it.
Mortar(Usmash): Even though other moves can destroy it you can punish the lag plus some rather not take their chances.
Utilt: That ridiculous range and priority makes it perhaps its best anti air.
Also he can built walls that make it harder to approach both ways with platforms mine at the bottom C4 on the platform above it with nades(Wall of Fire) but with a plain stage nades toss up while Usmash makes a pretty good wall.
BUT even before the game came out watching the first trailer for Brawl and hearing the codec sound I was no way and right there I knew I was going to main Snake no matter what good or bad plus I did it in Melee with Link ^.^
I just get sad when I find out Greg went over there to play and left me here but chances are he was already there to begin with none the less it sucks plus he does it too when he goes to land when Marvel is involved even SC2 and I'm like "POR QUE" T.T *goes to play Marvel*
If anything Sekou was saying like it feels like one I mean you're playing a pretty high top char but when you are not there it feels like the char you are playing is on the mid tier level o.0
Stop living on the past that game is done get over it give it another year or so and Brawl may be too.
@Joker: I see your point about not having an air game, I just think it is important. When Snake gets knocked up in the air, it's curly mustache time :-}. I think that is a big problem, but you are right...his ground game makes up for it in a BIG way. Might be a matter of tastes.
The biggest surprise is you got my point :-D and backed me up with Delux. Thanks
@Delux: Yeah, what Joker said...I am not arguing that he is a mid-teir character nor that a character can have a "bad day". I was using the "feels like mid-low tier" as a way to describe a person's preformance when using diddy if they are off. The context was MK masking skill and Diddy won't help you out AT ALL. To expound a little bit, the learning curve for diddy is steep and it takes lots of effort to maintain a high level. That just isn't true for MK. Our resident Peach player Jlo said it best "Good Diddys make (winning) look easy, but it is not"
The biggest surprise is you got my point :-D and backed me up with Delux. Thanks
@Delux: Yeah, what Joker said
...I am not arguing that he is a mid-teir character nor that a character can have a "bad day". I was using the "feels like mid-low tier" as a way to describe a person's preformance when using diddy if they are off. The context was MK masking skill and Diddy won't help you out AT ALL. To expound a little bit, the learning curve for diddy is steep and it takes lots of effort to maintain a high level. That just isn't true for MK. Our resident Peach player Jlo said it best "Good Diddys make (winning) look easy, but it is not"
~GregDang!~
Smash Master
Moral of the story: Pocket Meat-Knight is stupid. Only Meta-Knight I respect around here is Razor aka Jakebudden. He play that character since Day 1 and had character loyalty to hm, but he though he would mix it up and now plays a respectable D3.
BPx
Smash Lord
lol ok greg... i play mk a lot, you can ask colin, dustin, or sekou :/ my mk was a little more than a pocket, but now every time i want to play MY SECONDARY suddenly its unacceptable. you guys have been playing the game for 3 years, you'd think you would just learn the matchup. i enjoy the feeling of beating a good metaknight(even if just a few matches), though it is hard.
~GregDang!~
Smash Master
Why bother learn the match-up? This is a gimmick game and I don't respect characters that just auto win. If this game was like every other game that actually updates and balances, then I might respect it more.
Cook
Smash Master
I just don't understand how people claim that MK is super easy to pick up and win with. I can usually beat people's pocket MKs with DDD, of all characters. If the MK player is having a bad day then he's going to play worse than normal. If you can't beat an MK player that you think is the same skill level as you when he's having a bad day then you should probably step back and take a reality check, because that probably means you AREN'T at that person's skill level.
Imo.
Tl;dr
MK is not auto-win, nor is he the easiest character in the game to pick up and play.
Imo.
Tl;dr
MK is not auto-win, nor is he the easiest character in the game to pick up and play.
Kuares
Pizza
Marvel's a complete game of gimmick's, what are you talking about? It's got just as much auto win and is also a party game.
But in anycase, not sure if I should go tomorrow. Got a lab to do and such.
But in anycase, not sure if I should go tomorrow. Got a lab to do and such.
Soran
Smash Ace
MK is pretty easy to pick up.. I mean, granted: you won't be gdlk right off the bat but you'll know basically how to play him..
That's how I feel a lot of the characters are unless they are really execution heavy. I feel Snake is one of those characters. If you disagree with the latter part of this statement, go ahead and say why because I, in no way, have a Ph.D in Brawl-talk. Just that Marth is awesome.
That's how I feel a lot of the characters are unless they are really execution heavy. I feel Snake is one of those characters. If you disagree with the latter part of this statement, go ahead and say why because I, in no way, have a Ph.D in Brawl-talk. Just that Marth is awesome.
Cook
Smash Master
So what you're saying is that there are many characters that take about as much time as MK to be decent. That's what I'm saying. MK isn't the hardest character to learn, but he's also not the easiest. If you lose to someone that just started playing him then you're just bad against MK (or maybe bad in general).
MegaRobMan
Smash Hero
not in Nebraska!
What about connor?
ALSO
Who all is coming to the tournament this weekend?
BOLT08
Smash Lord
Cook, who do you think is easier than MK? I would guess Falco is up there, but I can't really think of anyone easier than MK.
At least a character that doesn't provide as much of a benefit for as little time you put in. (For example practicing with MK for 2 hours will yield a much better result at a tourney than if you practiced for 2 hours with diddy and then entered a tournament.)
@Bpx You really don't think anyone took the time to learn the matchup against MK? I promise you people took the time to learn the matchup, just cause you know the matchup doesn't mean you will win.
At least a character that doesn't provide as much of a benefit for as little time you put in. (For example practicing with MK for 2 hours will yield a much better result at a tourney than if you practiced for 2 hours with diddy and then entered a tournament.)
@Bpx You really don't think anyone took the time to learn the matchup against MK? I promise you people took the time to learn the matchup, just cause you know the matchup doesn't mean you will win.
Blank Mauser
Smash Champion
Skill semantics, tier-whoring, and gimmicks shouldn't mean anything to the value of high-level play. You adapt and do what it takes to win or you don't, gimmicks are called gimmicks because they are just that and shouldn't work once the player grasps it.
Joker and Greg have had this problem since day 1 that Metaknight is a "back-up" character for when you want to hunker down and just win. Well its naive in the first place to assume that everyone is just going to pick their characters out of "loyalty" and "dedication." Is it a justified response though to say that that isn't true? Everyone loves to talk about mains and secondaries, but in truth it should really hold no water. You do what it takes to win, sometimes you do that by learning multiple characters. Logically isn't it strange then to switch back to a character that limits you and has worst matchups after you're done?
For a lot of theoretical reasons no, but community doesn't run on theory it runs on practice. Thats why this issue exists, when people take it as a form of respect and disrespect. That is what plagues gaming debates like this all the time, not logic but personal infatuations, circlejerking, and "honor." If you're gunna pick up top tier why do you bother coming back down? People assume you want the respect of playing a lower character while keeping a top character to make it easier for you.
This of course should really all be null and void. I think the whole thing about "knowing the matchup" is entirely subjective and so is just about everything being discussed now. If you "know the matchup" then you would know that you should only win x amount of times against someone elses x unless you are clearly a higher skill level then them. After 3 years this is still a problem, you would think taken at face value with everyone getting closer and closer in skill telling someone to "learn the matchup" to solve their problems would be out of the question by now. Its like telling someone you get 30 and he gets 70, but you're really at 20 and heres how you get to 30. Its not going to make the matchup a good one.
Marvel may have a lot of this, but there are things that you can't get around whether you know about it or not. That is where the higher level of play comes in, when you are done trying to understand the game and are now trying to understand your opponent.
Joker and Greg have had this problem since day 1 that Metaknight is a "back-up" character for when you want to hunker down and just win. Well its naive in the first place to assume that everyone is just going to pick their characters out of "loyalty" and "dedication." Is it a justified response though to say that that isn't true? Everyone loves to talk about mains and secondaries, but in truth it should really hold no water. You do what it takes to win, sometimes you do that by learning multiple characters. Logically isn't it strange then to switch back to a character that limits you and has worst matchups after you're done?
For a lot of theoretical reasons no, but community doesn't run on theory it runs on practice. Thats why this issue exists, when people take it as a form of respect and disrespect. That is what plagues gaming debates like this all the time, not logic but personal infatuations, circlejerking, and "honor." If you're gunna pick up top tier why do you bother coming back down? People assume you want the respect of playing a lower character while keeping a top character to make it easier for you.
This of course should really all be null and void. I think the whole thing about "knowing the matchup" is entirely subjective and so is just about everything being discussed now. If you "know the matchup" then you would know that you should only win x amount of times against someone elses x unless you are clearly a higher skill level then them. After 3 years this is still a problem, you would think taken at face value with everyone getting closer and closer in skill telling someone to "learn the matchup" to solve their problems would be out of the question by now. Its like telling someone you get 30 and he gets 70, but you're really at 20 and heres how you get to 30. Its not going to make the matchup a good one.
resTy
Smash Champion
I hate all you elitist faggots.
Blank Mauser
Smash Champion
Thank you jesus christ.
Edit: Also I'm not sure what Brandon is talking about it seems people are fairly happy about Concentrate 2's results.
ngamer3k
Smash Ace
All you kids arguing is so cute. Except Blank and Tyser- They just speak truth all the time it seems. /Magneto is better than Doom. (This isn't Ultimate yet)
EDIT:
I also prefer the phrase "Get better."
EDIT:
I also prefer the phrase "Get better."
@Everyone: Are we playing today (Thursday)? If so, where? If not, Joker I might come to your place and play singles. If no, I'll do something else with my life
@Blank: OMG ... gimmicks reign supreme in marvel.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6Ww5Z-a7WM
@Blank: OMG ... gimmicks reign supreme in marvel.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6Ww5Z-a7WM
Blank Mauser
Smash Champion
They play different games. Magneto is a pixie, a fast annoyance that also happens to kill you.
Doom is a working character, once he gets in he stays in until you crack or guess right. Even his beams are +frames. Also Doom has been doing pretty well in tourneys so I don't see the case here. One Magneto has made it into the top 8 for like the last 3 majors, and if anything his higher success comes in his popularity more then anything.
Watched the whole match, don't see what you're referring to.
~GregDang!~
Smash Master
More like Brawl needs a better BackRoom. Yea, I said it.
overtheunder
Smash Cadet
hi. some quick comments
The main reason people want meta knight banned is that he is very over-centralizing. People got tired of seeing meta knight everywhere.
He is also the only character that has pretty much all positive matchups on every stage against every character. Exceptions being falco/fox/pikachu on specific stages being even . Not 100% sure on diddy but i'd say diddy has a small advantage at a top level on a few specific stages, while being even on a few and slightly or more than slightly disadvantaged on several more.
He kills the counter pick system. You could definitely change the system and get rid of RC and brinstar.... the character still can only be "counterpicked (lol)" by picking diddy and going to fd or smashville which is pretty debatable in itself. Of course you could go with a much more conservative stagelist and that might help the problem but it in no way eliminates it and the NA community has opted for a more varied counterpick style of brawl.
What it comes down to though is a lot of people who don't use mk don't have as much fun when they have to be forced to pick up mk for it to actually be even****(see below) and people don't want to completely alter the rules in order to keep the character around when they think banning him will increase diversity and overall community enjoyment/interest. ( the finals at brain shock beta anyone? rofl)
****falco/fox/maybe pikachu are only even or close to even on specific stages, and can all be counter picked. (i'd argue pikachu the least but I feel like fox and falco have a better mu than pikachu does on their strong stages.) Diddy has it the best against metaknight... but RC and brinstar still seem like a problem from him, again not sure. Also I'd like to point out that diddy is probably one of the hardest characters to become good with at a top level..... and adhd and gnes both think the mu is still in mks favor... close to even at best.
Now as far as what I actually think about it all.... I'm glad these banned tournies are going on and I suspect they will be more fun to watch and more varied in characters. (how much i'm not sure but we'll see.) I think it's better for doubles hands down
That being said, people are more than free to host meta knight legal tournies and I am TOTALLY FINE with that.
TLDR; A lot of the community is sick of metaknight and feel he sucks a lot of fun (read: dittos all day aren't fun to watch for most people) plus he is the strongest character by far with arguably no real cp as effective as picking him up for the ditto.
Let's just wait and see how the metagame changes with these mk banned tournies...... at least we'll have some data to compare.
p.s. obviously friendlies is a whole other thing....mk all day unless agreed upon by the people playing;p
done
The main reason people want meta knight banned is that he is very over-centralizing. People got tired of seeing meta knight everywhere.
He is also the only character that has pretty much all positive matchups on every stage against every character. Exceptions being falco/fox/pikachu on specific stages being even . Not 100% sure on diddy but i'd say diddy has a small advantage at a top level on a few specific stages, while being even on a few and slightly or more than slightly disadvantaged on several more.
He kills the counter pick system. You could definitely change the system and get rid of RC and brinstar.... the character still can only be "counterpicked (lol)" by picking diddy and going to fd or smashville which is pretty debatable in itself. Of course you could go with a much more conservative stagelist and that might help the problem but it in no way eliminates it and the NA community has opted for a more varied counterpick style of brawl.
What it comes down to though is a lot of people who don't use mk don't have as much fun when they have to be forced to pick up mk for it to actually be even****(see below) and people don't want to completely alter the rules in order to keep the character around when they think banning him will increase diversity and overall community enjoyment/interest. ( the finals at brain shock beta anyone? rofl)
****falco/fox/maybe pikachu are only even or close to even on specific stages, and can all be counter picked. (i'd argue pikachu the least but I feel like fox and falco have a better mu than pikachu does on their strong stages.) Diddy has it the best against metaknight... but RC and brinstar still seem like a problem from him, again not sure. Also I'd like to point out that diddy is probably one of the hardest characters to become good with at a top level..... and adhd and gnes both think the mu is still in mks favor... close to even at best.
Now as far as what I actually think about it all.... I'm glad these banned tournies are going on and I suspect they will be more fun to watch and more varied in characters. (how much i'm not sure but we'll see.) I think it's better for doubles hands down
That being said, people are more than free to host meta knight legal tournies and I am TOTALLY FINE with that.
TLDR; A lot of the community is sick of metaknight and feel he sucks a lot of fun (read: dittos all day aren't fun to watch for most people) plus he is the strongest character by far with arguably no real cp as effective as picking him up for the ditto.
Let's just wait and see how the metagame changes with these mk banned tournies...... at least we'll have some data to compare.
p.s. obviously friendlies is a whole other thing....mk all day unless agreed upon by the people playing;p
done
ngamer3k
Smash Ace
Bai,
Gone to the AiB thread. Follow if you dare.
Gone to the AiB thread. Follow if you dare.
Joker490Frozen
Smash Champion
This ^.^
K well by the sounds of it MK is only your secondary to play against other MKs right cause if that's the case I'm ok with that since your not the only one that does that many players do but by this logic we should just play ditto matches then.
Man trust me I have learn that MU but it doesn't make it any easier T.T
Maybe he's not auto-win but he is the easiest char to pick up.
Sekou for example he took the time to learn the banana lock which he still can't get down most of the time, his recovery is not bad but still needs to learn how to recover with him otherwise he will get gimp plus among other ATs which is pretty much basic for Diddy players.
My Snake took me a while to learn most of his stuff like keeping an eye on the whole stage making sure I know where all my explosives are at while fighting cooking grenades cause it may sound simple but it's probably one of the hardest thing about him specially mid match but again stuff becomes second nature.
Brandon's Wario is pretty damn good and took him a while to get him out there now he hits with fart off stage uses tires more efficiently plus combos you into a Fsmash >.< really mobile among other stuff.
Now MK I have never really put time on him I seen vids of people doing "ATs" and such with him and they are really not that hard I think I have done them on my first tries or so point being MK style is pretty much straight forward space your opponent what you can't Tornado them to put them on a bad spot knock them off stage and abuse MK 6 jumps while using his Dair drill back to the ledge and try again or drop down and reverse UpB <(^.^<)
A while back I saw a chart about how long it takes to learn a char it had tiers but someone like Diddy, Snake or Wario took about 3 months or so while Meta Knight, G&W or Marth took around 1-3 weeks.
Good example of how ez is too pick up Meta Knight > Thugz XP
Give it time my son give it time o.0
This.
Yeah sounds good also if you end up showing at my place sometime after 6pm or so will be ideal ^.^@Everyone: Are we playing today (Thursday)? If so, where? If not, Joker I might come to your place and play singles. If no, I'll do something else with my life
Dr. Doom got a bunch of buffs for no reason he wasn't that bad to begin with so I really don't know why I'm blaming Clockwork lol
Also Maximilian talks about some changes of 5 chars not bad too watch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icdngAz_8Fs&feature=feedu
This guy who teamed with Nicole picked Mario cause he didn't had to worry about MK.
Stop coping me XP
Also skip around 1:56:50 Jay is playing and some pretty funny commentary about him this is also the same clip I was talking to you about Ngamer XD
http://www.twitch.tv/teamsp00ky/b/297649631
Cook
Smash Master
@Bolt: Off the top of my head I'd say Kirby and DDD are both easier than MK, or at least that's been my experience. Maybe Ike. Falco is def one of the hardest characters, so Idk why you'd mention him.
@Colin: The thing is, I think the claim that MK overcentralizes the game is kind of bogus. I mean, how often do you guys play against MKs in tournament? And not just here, but in the entire MW; not many MK players. Whenever I look at results it seems like the only place with a lot of MKs is NY/NJ, so I don't understand when I see people complaining about how every other match was an MK ditto. Ok, Brainshock 2 had MK dittos for GFs. That's because M2K and Ally came. Are you saying the finals were boring because it was MK dittos? The last Kahoka had TL vs. Sheik/DK for the GFs. There arem't many more obscure matchups, yet nobody really watched the finals. Why? Because people want to play friendlies. Banning MK isn't going to make finals any more hype, in most cases.
Also, the problem with the "ban him and then we can at least see what changes" approach is that even if nothing changes he probably won't be unbanned. I mean, it took 3 years to ban him. The game ain't likely to be around in 3 more years.
@Joker: Yeah, Snake and Diddy are harder than MK. That doesn't mean MK is super easy to start winning with. The chart that you referenced put G&W and Marth on his level, and, like I said, I think Kirby and DDD are both easier (personally I think Marth is a bit harder than MK just because of the grab release stuff, but I guess that's mostly just one matchup). Also, the fact that you brought up Thugz is probably good support for me, lol. Because, you know, his MK is free.
@Colin: The thing is, I think the claim that MK overcentralizes the game is kind of bogus. I mean, how often do you guys play against MKs in tournament? And not just here, but in the entire MW; not many MK players. Whenever I look at results it seems like the only place with a lot of MKs is NY/NJ, so I don't understand when I see people complaining about how every other match was an MK ditto. Ok, Brainshock 2 had MK dittos for GFs. That's because M2K and Ally came. Are you saying the finals were boring because it was MK dittos? The last Kahoka had TL vs. Sheik/DK for the GFs. There arem't many more obscure matchups, yet nobody really watched the finals. Why? Because people want to play friendlies. Banning MK isn't going to make finals any more hype, in most cases.
Also, the problem with the "ban him and then we can at least see what changes" approach is that even if nothing changes he probably won't be unbanned. I mean, it took 3 years to ban him. The game ain't likely to be around in 3 more years.
@Joker: Yeah, Snake and Diddy are harder than MK. That doesn't mean MK is super easy to start winning with. The chart that you referenced put G&W and Marth on his level, and, like I said, I think Kirby and DDD are both easier (personally I think Marth is a bit harder than MK just because of the grab release stuff, but I guess that's mostly just one matchup). Also, the fact that you brought up Thugz is probably good support for me, lol. Because, you know, his MK is free.
Soran
Smash Ace
brave soul ( ;
~GregDang!~
Smash Master
How the eff did we end up playing Marvel from 9:30 last night to 4 in the morning?!
BPx
Smash Lord
lol cook i'm pretty sure gfs of kahoka were tl vs fox
Cook
Smash Master
Lol, yeah I'm ********. At first I was gonna say TL vs. Pokemon Trainer/Wario, but then I was like wait. Reflex got 5th, lol. Anyway, the point still stands. Lots of interesting matchups toward the end, but no one cared.
BPx
Smash Lord
hey, me david and dustin watched GFs!
BPx
Smash Lord
yo jokester crazy idea can you do a monthly on the 12th? i could start posting places and trying to get people to come
ZTD | TECHnology
Developing New TECHnology
Yo Bpow.
I see you.
I see you.
BPx
Smash Lord
what are you doing here leave forever
also: REVENGE(ohio tourney on the 19th: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=307724)
who wants to go? so far i think its just me/dustin, i've been talking to MN about carpooling
chris and jjrockets showed interest as well
also: REVENGE(ohio tourney on the 19th: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=307724)
who wants to go? so far i think its just me/dustin, i've been talking to MN about carpooling
chris and jjrockets showed interest as well
ZTD | TECHnology
Developing New TECHnology
Nah I'm just gonna chill here.
I still need to attend one of these.
I still need to attend one of these.
BPx
Smash Lord
bring thugz, hes trying to give our state free money in melee now