Blank Mauser
Smash Champion
Do they even allow animated gif avatars?
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Iowa-Joker's Monthly"WHY SO SERIOUS?"#28 Nov 22th
- Thread starter Joker490Frozen
- Start date
BPx
Smash Lord
i'm tired of hearing "hes banned" everytime i try to pick mk, so i'm at least going to leave this here :/
[COLLAPSE="mk stuff"]
who banned mk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwG1t1DExXc&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
mk banned, the facts : http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jD11l3omQzM
also i believe sekou even said that diddy theoretically was better than mk. i still stand by ban RC/Brinstar/(ps2?) keep mk, then you would see other characters beating mk like they are able to (falco, ICs, diddy...)
tho i gotta admit, watching concentrate 2 was pretty cool... but i'd rather watch mk dittos than ICs/Falco(falco in some mus is pretty cool tho) all day... look at these results, in a 57 person tourney 6 players in the top 16 used ice climbers, and 5/16 used falco... SO DIVERSE THO http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=313154
[/COLLAPSE]
also i got a gamecube + new controller for 15 dollars at gamers and bought melee, why is unlocking stuff so hard
[COLLAPSE="mk stuff"]
who banned mk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwG1t1DExXc&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
mk banned, the facts : http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jD11l3omQzM
also i believe sekou even said that diddy theoretically was better than mk. i still stand by ban RC/Brinstar/(ps2?) keep mk, then you would see other characters beating mk like they are able to (falco, ICs, diddy...)
tho i gotta admit, watching concentrate 2 was pretty cool... but i'd rather watch mk dittos than ICs/Falco(falco in some mus is pretty cool tho) all day... look at these results, in a 57 person tourney 6 players in the top 16 used ice climbers, and 5/16 used falco... SO DIVERSE THO http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=313154
[/COLLAPSE]
also i got a gamecube + new controller for 15 dollars at gamers and bought melee, why is unlocking stuff so hard
MegaRobMan
Smash Hero
The 2nd video explains why I'm anti-ban, all we will see are Thugz clones who just CG only, plus MK is beatable if you are good enough.
However, you may notice that both of my tournaments are MK banned :/ The charity one makes sense considering the casual feel, and all of the "casual tournament players" seem to be the ones who want him banned, so okay! (lol Cook and Joker are gonna take my money @
) but as far as my own, actual tournament, I am doing it for instate attendance sakes, though I can imagine that the attendance will drop afterwards anyway.
I will be able to tell you more about this after the weekends tournament, hopefully some random IC's shows up and makes us look foolish.
However, you may notice that both of my tournaments are MK banned :/ The charity one makes sense considering the casual feel, and all of the "casual tournament players" seem to be the ones who want him banned, so okay! (lol Cook and Joker are gonna take my money @
) but as far as my own, actual tournament, I am doing it for instate attendance sakes, though I can imagine that the attendance will drop afterwards anyway.I will be able to tell you more about this after the weekends tournament, hopefully some random IC's shows up and makes us look foolish.
BOLT08
Smash Lord
I am pro ban for one simple reason.
Playing against metaknight is NOT fun. Tournament play when I do singles (rare i know), I don't mind going up against hardly anyone else. But the second someone picks MK I know I am in for a long, drawn out, pain in the @$$ match. Even when I get my @$$ kicked against someone (for example when I played Zeton), that is a million times more fun for me than winning against one MK. The only thing that is worse is playing against IC's. They're dumb.
But I'd also be pro ban against IC's. The fact that MK got banned before them is unreal. An infinite on every character is BS.
Playing against metaknight is NOT fun. Tournament play when I do singles (rare i know), I don't mind going up against hardly anyone else. But the second someone picks MK I know I am in for a long, drawn out, pain in the @$$ match. Even when I get my @$$ kicked against someone (for example when I played Zeton), that is a million times more fun for me than winning against one MK. The only thing that is worse is playing against IC's. They're dumb.
But I'd also be pro ban against IC's. The fact that MK got banned before them is unreal. An infinite on every character is BS.
Yes, I do believe that Diddy Kong is a "limitless" character. It is that "potential" that makes me believe that Diddy is better than MK....in that match up. However, I'd be a fool to think that Diddy is better than MK from a practical standpoint. MK makes up for players mistakes, lack of skill, bad days, etc. He just dominates everyone easily. Hell he can even dominate himself hahaha. So while I do believe that Diddy (with all his infinites, locks, setups, camping, etc) has a real advantage over MK, if Diddy is having a bad day, it is NOT an even matchup. Diddy on a bad day is EASILY mid to low tier, for hundreds of reasons...including, no kill moves, bananas being used against him, gimpable recovery, lag on all his important air attacks, sdi-able moves...... So to clarify...yes Bpx did quote me right , but I had to make sure no one thought i was star struck
, but I had to make sure no one thought i was star struck 
(C)ome(B)ack(K)id
Smash Journeyman
well all in all pikachu is an awesome char...^_^v
BOLT08
Smash Lord
You do say it well with MK making up for mistakes and lack of skill, etc.. MK makes up for players mistakes, lack of skill, bad days, etc. He just dominates everyone easily. Hell he can even dominate himself hahaha. Diddy on a bad day is EASILY mid to low tier, for hundreds of reasons...including, no kill moves, bananas being used against him, gimpable recovery, lag on all his important air attacks, sdi-able moves...... So to clarify...yes Bpx did quote me right
How many times must we have the argument about diddy's recovery?
Also, any character on a bad day is mid to low tier. Hence why it's a bad day.
§chizm
Smash Lord
Banning Brinstar/RC would kind of annoy me since they're my only counterpicks left (and I'd actually rather play MK on them than on neutrals
), but then again I'd be alright with Smashville/Battlefield being the only stages. Also just copy someone else's memory card. I've had to do this like four times because people kept erasing my data.
You play Falco, every match is going to be long and drawn out if you're playing it right (or not against someone that's bad).
Technically Diddy can infinite every character (though every character can infinite him as well I believe?). The fact that they didn't get banned first is because the infinites actually require some sort of practice, and they can be counterpicked (hard). Not to mention the part where it would be competely ********.
resTy
Smash Champion
This. The MK ban is pretty ridiculous, honestly. People just wanna play an easy game.
One man to end it all. Mew2King da bess.
ngamer3k
Smash Ace
Just imagine if I could photoshop.
@Debo: Hahaha....you play Kirby, so the fact you can't gimp me means you are doing it wrong. ... ask Greg...he is the ONLY person in Iowa I will respect off stage...even though QRS is kinda getting there too...oh yeah, and MK on a bad day is NOT mid to low teir. That is most of my point. Hell DDD and Snake on a bad day, aren't mid tier.
Anyway...
M2Keezy tripping in that picture. Most ungangsta pose ever in that picture. But it is an old one....rumor has it, he has upped his 304 game since then.
... ask Greg...he is the ONLY person in Iowa I will respect off stage...even though QRS is kinda getting there too...oh yeah, and MK on a bad day is NOT mid to low teir. That is most of my point. Hell DDD and Snake on a bad day, aren't mid tier. Anyway...
M2Keezy tripping in that picture. Most ungangsta pose ever in that picture. But it is an old one....rumor has it, he has upped his 304 game since then.
BPx
Smash Lord
an mk on a bad day playing against a good player IS a mid tier... you have to be good to punish him because his moves naturally have less lag/aren't as punishable. hes the best char, but the reason you see the ******** statistics is because of RC/Brinstar... europe only plays SV/BF and they have like two or three mks that place over there. midlevel mks might place higher than other midlevel players, but no midlevel mks are making money if there are good players at the event, so it doesn't really matter...
and quit saying diddy is mid-low tier rofl, most blind argument i've ever seen. with mk gone, you play the best character in the game.
".including, no kill moves, bananas being used against him, gimpable recovery, lag on all his important air attacks, sdi-able moves"
no kill moves: becuase diddys stale out their fsmash because it can punish everything, it may be stale. because diddy uses fair which has more priority/range than most other moves, it may be stale. diddy has guarenteed banana setups into smash attacks with the setups themselves dealing upwards of 20%, on top of a smash attack at the end. so yea, he might not be able to kill at low percent, but his ability to get guarenteed kill setups is unrivaled(except by climbers, who are more broken)
bananas being used against him-- looool, yeah you have a broken item, and you have the most broken dash attack in the game. diddy has the tools to abuse his bananas much more than every other character by a long shot(dash attack, picking up nanas with fair, perfect length glide toss to combo everything, and a second projectile which covers all the approach trajectories of MOST characters)
gimpable recovery-- rofl, yeah, it auto stage techs, thats really gimpable. oh and if you hit it and aren't FRAME PERFECT, you take a ton of damage and diddy is safe... sounds a lot like the traits of our friend metaknight... not to mention you have an air grab to recover with that you can turn into a high priority attack AFTER YOU'VE ALREADY USED THE GRAB... on top of whatever projectiles you can conjure to stop your opponent from harassing you. pretty gimpable(if you can't use your brain)
lag on all his important air attacks-- who doesn't have this? if by important you mean strong moves? then mk has lag on his only 'important air attack,' nair(punishable, but albeit less than diddy kongs)
sdiable moves-- i'm pretty sure you can SDI every move in the game with a few exceptions... you can sdi out of mks uair strings, sdi behind him during his fair, sdi out of his bair, out of his ftilt, out of his jab...
but every character has sdi'able moves, this isn't just diddy kong
diddy is broken, lots of characters in this game are broken. people just used an overpopulated region and biased statistics to ban the best character... yeah there will be diversity until everyone learns ice climbers grab instead of mk, then you'll see ice climbers and the few characters that can safely beat him at the top...
i bet if m2k mained diddy from the start, he would have been banned long before now...
and quit saying diddy is mid-low tier rofl, most blind argument i've ever seen. with mk gone, you play the best character in the game.
".including, no kill moves, bananas being used against him, gimpable recovery, lag on all his important air attacks, sdi-able moves"
no kill moves: becuase diddys stale out their fsmash because it can punish everything, it may be stale. because diddy uses fair which has more priority/range than most other moves, it may be stale. diddy has guarenteed banana setups into smash attacks with the setups themselves dealing upwards of 20%, on top of a smash attack at the end. so yea, he might not be able to kill at low percent, but his ability to get guarenteed kill setups is unrivaled(except by climbers, who are more broken)
bananas being used against him-- looool, yeah you have a broken item, and you have the most broken dash attack in the game. diddy has the tools to abuse his bananas much more than every other character by a long shot(dash attack, picking up nanas with fair, perfect length glide toss to combo everything, and a second projectile which covers all the approach trajectories of MOST characters)
gimpable recovery-- rofl, yeah, it auto stage techs, thats really gimpable. oh and if you hit it and aren't FRAME PERFECT, you take a ton of damage and diddy is safe... sounds a lot like the traits of our friend metaknight... not to mention you have an air grab to recover with that you can turn into a high priority attack AFTER YOU'VE ALREADY USED THE GRAB... on top of whatever projectiles you can conjure to stop your opponent from harassing you. pretty gimpable(if you can't use your brain)
lag on all his important air attacks-- who doesn't have this? if by important you mean strong moves? then mk has lag on his only 'important air attack,' nair(punishable, but albeit less than diddy kongs)
sdiable moves-- i'm pretty sure you can SDI every move in the game with a few exceptions... you can sdi out of mks uair strings, sdi behind him during his fair, sdi out of his bair, out of his ftilt, out of his jab...
edited stuff that was hear cuz lux is smart
diddy is broken, lots of characters in this game are broken. people just used an overpopulated region and biased statistics to ban the best character... yeah there will be diversity until everyone learns ice climbers grab instead of mk, then you'll see ice climbers and the few characters that can safely beat him at the top...
i bet if m2k mained diddy from the start, he would have been banned long before now...
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2010
- Messages
- 9,313
^ a lot of this stuff is incorrect :\
For example, you have a misconception of the priority system. It's a tier list of transcendentalism (like metaknight's sword attacks for the most part), damage if the hitboxes are grounded (if a move does more damage than another one, it'll out prioritize. I don't remember the finite percentage off the top of my head, but I think it's near 12%. Otherwise they'll clash), and disjoint if the a hitbox is aerial. Multi-hit moves in the air have the appearance of higher priority because while the first hit may clash with a grounded hitbox, the rest of the hitboxes still go into affect immediately after. Speed of a hitbox in terms of frame advantage also matters.
TLDR: Monkey Flip isn't the highest priority moves in the game. That honor belongs to Ice Climbers Belay because it's the highest disjoint and one of the largest damaging moves in the game.
Also, SDI multipliers are really on a case by case basis for moves. It's independent if they are multi-hit or not for the most part.
For example, you have a misconception of the priority system. It's a tier list of transcendentalism (like metaknight's sword attacks for the most part), damage if the hitboxes are grounded (if a move does more damage than another one, it'll out prioritize. I don't remember the finite percentage off the top of my head, but I think it's near 12%. Otherwise they'll clash), and disjoint if the a hitbox is aerial. Multi-hit moves in the air have the appearance of higher priority because while the first hit may clash with a grounded hitbox, the rest of the hitboxes still go into affect immediately after. Speed of a hitbox in terms of frame advantage also matters.
TLDR: Monkey Flip isn't the highest priority moves in the game. That honor belongs to Ice Climbers Belay because it's the highest disjoint and one of the largest damaging moves in the game.
Also, SDI multipliers are really on a case by case basis for moves. It's independent if they are multi-hit or not for the most part.
MegaRobMan
Smash Hero
...continue?
Joker490Frozen
Smash Champion
Brandon stop using MK that char is banned XP
@Pcity:If you play Snake wrong he's probably will be mid tier assuming you playing someone who knows what they are doing.
But I have been pretty much pro ban ever since the first pool they did way back but in all fairness the ban was late it should have been done sooner perhaps after the second pool I mean Brawlol is already past it's prime a bunch of players quit or moved to different games I have seen a couple of top players playing either Marvel. SF or any other fighting game they may like.
With that said MK just made it so that it wasn't fun for me I'll probably will have quit a long time but because of character loyalty(Snake) I decided to just keep playing Brawlol, also MK made it so that counter picking was pretty much obsolete a good example is on the second vid Mike Haze said he picks MK for RC so it's like fack mind as well take you back to SV >.<
That's the whole point of CP so that their char gets a disadvantage and gives you an upper hand but then they pick MK and chances are MK will do better at that stage then your char.
So let's say Snake CP Brinstar against IC so now IC pick MK see now he has the advantage sure Snake can do ok on that stage but against MK he will most likely just get 2 stock or something but could have 2 stock IC. On the other hand if IC picks G&W he would do better on that stage but Snake has a decent MU against him so it still is a pretty good CP plus sometimes people still lose on their CP.
Now with MK ban it should make people play a secondary and/or learn more stages but chances are people are just going to go to Smashville anyways T.T
I think Diddy may be the next top tier and I don't know who will follow so for right now I'll go with the current while taking MK out but the point is that this chars can be CP in a way I may have the wrong info since I don't check the boards about this stuff I just go with what people tell me plus I'm only giving a couple of examples >.<
A:
Could be CP to Battlefield/Frigate Orpheon maybe with
Could be CP to Rainbow Cruise/Brinstar maybe with 
Could be CP to Yoshi's Island(Brawl)/Pokemon Stadium 1 maybe with
B:
Could be CP to Frigate Orpheon/Final Destination maybe with
Could be CP to Final Destination/Halbert maybe with
Could be CP to Brinstar/Rainbow Cruise maybe with
Could be CP to Frigate Orpheon/Castle Siege maybe with
Could be CP to Delfino Plaza/Pokemon Stadium 2 maybe with
Some of them are hard CP others chars will just do better against them point being with MK gone the game should at least be some what balance and don't have to worry about "pocket" Meta Knights which was stupid by the way.
Probably cause I come from the Melee days when people used to CP more often but that's just me I just think is stupid to strike 9 stages only to go to SV why bother adding all those stages just put 3/5 or have it so the 1st match is either on SV or Battlefield <(^.^<)
@Pcity:If you play Snake wrong he's probably will be mid tier assuming you playing someone who knows what they are doing.
But I have been pretty much pro ban ever since the first pool they did way back but in all fairness the ban was late it should have been done sooner perhaps after the second pool I mean Brawlol is already past it's prime a bunch of players quit or moved to different games I have seen a couple of top players playing either Marvel. SF or any other fighting game they may like.
With that said MK just made it so that it wasn't fun for me I'll probably will have quit a long time but because of character loyalty(Snake) I decided to just keep playing Brawlol, also MK made it so that counter picking was pretty much obsolete a good example is on the second vid Mike Haze said he picks MK for RC so it's like fack mind as well take you back to SV >.<
That's the whole point of CP so that their char gets a disadvantage and gives you an upper hand but then they pick MK and chances are MK will do better at that stage then your char.
So let's say Snake CP Brinstar against IC so now IC pick MK see now he has the advantage sure Snake can do ok on that stage but against MK he will most likely just get 2 stock or something but could have 2 stock IC. On the other hand if IC picks G&W he would do better on that stage but Snake has a decent MU against him so it still is a pretty good CP plus sometimes people still lose on their CP.
Now with MK ban it should make people play a secondary and/or learn more stages but chances are people are just going to go to Smashville anyways T.T
I think Diddy may be the next top tier and I don't know who will follow so for right now I'll go with the current while taking MK out but the point is that this chars can be CP in a way I may have the wrong info since I don't check the boards about this stuff I just go with what people tell me plus I'm only giving a couple of examples >.<
A:
Could be CP to Battlefield/Frigate Orpheon maybe with Could be CP to Rainbow Cruise/Brinstar maybe with Could be CP to Yoshi's Island(Brawl)/Pokemon Stadium 1 maybe with B:
Could be CP to Frigate Orpheon/Final Destination maybe with Could be CP to Final Destination/Halbert maybe with Could be CP to Brinstar/Rainbow Cruise maybe with Could be CP to Frigate Orpheon/Castle Siege maybe with Could be CP to Delfino Plaza/Pokemon Stadium 2 maybe with Some of them are hard CP others chars will just do better against them point being with MK gone the game should at least be some what balance and don't have to worry about "pocket" Meta Knights which was stupid by the way.
Probably cause I come from the Melee days when people used to CP more often but that's just me I just think is stupid to strike 9 stages only to go to SV why bother adding all those stages just put 3/5 or have it so the 1st match is either on SV or Battlefield <(^.^<)
Blank Mauser
Smash Champion
Yeah each move has an amount of which the opponent is allowed to SDI. It doesn't really matter whether its multi-hit or not, thats why they're able to edit the values to have multi-hit moves work properly in Project: M. :D
Transcendent priority and stuff being based off damage always blows my head when its discussed. What a dumb mechanic.
Also its unfair to say that one region got Metaknight banned. In fact its silly how these kinds allegations go on in the community. Who banned Metaknight? Hm a bunch of TO's that have ran high-profile tourneys. Woah thats unprecedented, why should TO's make decisions on how to run their alliance of tourneys? Only the best players should get to do that! Maybe said high-level players can ban all their bad matchups and stages too, they clearly have the understanding of the game to do so.
Simple enough if many TOs hold regular tourneys without MK ban and the community really supports them over Unity and thrives under it, then maybe we'd see a turn-around. But if the community is really full of "whiners" well then tough luck. There are places to preach to that crowd, but this thread aimed at your own local players is hardly it. The ban still hasn't even taken place yet so you can't totally prove its "worst for the community."
If the community just wants an easy game, you should question your participation in it. Fg's have seen this reprise in all sorts of forms, and their only answer was to quit for a different game. Back when arcades ruled the scene, all sorts of rules had to be made up for different types of audiences, when game-breaking glitches and cab-freezers had to be disputed on the spot, and to the extent where even good players were banned because people were tired of them winning. Yeah people are stupid, but that applies across the spectrum. Some happen to overcompensate and others just feel safe following mob mentality. Do I think Metaknight is a problem enough to be banned? No. But do I run tourneys using my own time and resources? No. If people are truly playing to win, they adapt. If they aren't, what're they playing for? Who will honestly tell you they want to progress the game? The ones who are upset about their character, or the TO's acting against a trend?
Banning is never something you want to rush so easily, and the game might see a different trend if given more time. (Melee still has these so why not?) But taken at face value the pros and cons are all entirely subjective and are all up to what happens starting in January. Objectivity comes in when you see variety, but right now there is no case for it either way with the only case being made for a "different kind of top tier."
Transcendent priority and stuff being based off damage always blows my head when its discussed. What a dumb mechanic.
Also its unfair to say that one region got Metaknight banned. In fact its silly how these kinds allegations go on in the community. Who banned Metaknight? Hm a bunch of TO's that have ran high-profile tourneys. Woah thats unprecedented, why should TO's make decisions on how to run their alliance of tourneys? Only the best players should get to do that! Maybe said high-level players can ban all their bad matchups and stages too, they clearly have the understanding of the game to do so.
Simple enough if many TOs hold regular tourneys without MK ban and the community really supports them over Unity and thrives under it, then maybe we'd see a turn-around. But if the community is really full of "whiners" well then tough luck. There are places to preach to that crowd, but this thread aimed at your own local players is hardly it. The ban still hasn't even taken place yet so you can't totally prove its "worst for the community."
If the community just wants an easy game, you should question your participation in it. Fg's have seen this reprise in all sorts of forms, and their only answer was to quit for a different game. Back when arcades ruled the scene, all sorts of rules had to be made up for different types of audiences, when game-breaking glitches and cab-freezers had to be disputed on the spot, and to the extent where even good players were banned because people were tired of them winning. Yeah people are stupid, but that applies across the spectrum. Some happen to overcompensate and others just feel safe following mob mentality. Do I think Metaknight is a problem enough to be banned? No. But do I run tourneys using my own time and resources? No. If people are truly playing to win, they adapt. If they aren't, what're they playing for? Who will honestly tell you they want to progress the game? The ones who are upset about their character, or the TO's acting against a trend?
Banning is never something you want to rush so easily, and the game might see a different trend if given more time. (Melee still has these so why not?) But taken at face value the pros and cons are all entirely subjective and are all up to what happens starting in January. Objectivity comes in when you see variety, but right now there is no case for it either way with the only case being made for a "different kind of top tier."
@DeLux: Thank you.
@Bpx: Read Delux post + I'm not arguing my character is mid-teir. I am saying, he won't mask my mistakes. Diddy wouldn't be banned if M2Keezy was playing him from the start. He wouldn't be able to walk all over people. It takes FAR more effort to play diddy than MK and M2Keezy doesn't have time for that. And yeah, , most of that stuff you said about diddy is lolable...anyway i got early morning homework
@Bpx: Read Delux post + I'm not arguing my character is mid-teir. I am saying, he won't mask my mistakes. Diddy wouldn't be banned if M2Keezy was playing him from the start. He wouldn't be able to walk all over people. It takes FAR more effort to play diddy than MK and M2Keezy doesn't have time for that. And yeah,
, most of that stuff you said about diddy is lolable...anyway i got early morning homeworkBPx
Smash Lord
good, now people are talking on the boards again... they were getting pretty boring
we're doing persuasive speeches right now, and i haven't seen any logos appeal in your arguments sekou, you really seem to abuse pathos a lot. maybe instead of saying "read lux's post" you could formulate your own (logical)response? maybe use some numbers??? or cite a source? ?aren't u a stats major?
@DeLux: thank you for the information, i edited a little.
i think the east coast contributed a lot of the results that got mk banned because of their higher concentration of good(mk) players. in the mww we have like domo(quit for now), mj(who's been going toon link except dubs), but other than that I haven't seen any mks really dominating the scene. MJ places in our tournaments whether he uses TL or MK, mk just takes less mental effort to play... i think the ban would have been reasonable 3 years ago. the metagame is going to get obnoxious though =/ the only low tier that i can think of that would be hurt by removing rc/brinstar is jiggs :-/ what cp stages would you be as scared of mk on if rc/brin were gone? delfino? halberd? those sound significantly less cheesy
@sekou: i don't see m2k walking all over the top players with mk anymore... afaik he has lost a few tourney sets to a couple people lately. m2k has only lost to 17 people in a tourney set... you can't find that stat anywhere else(other mk players included) honestly if he wasn't in the scene you would be seeing more diversity. also who are you to say that playing diddy takes far more effort than mk? that is a general trend as you go down the tier list, with a few exceptions... gannon takes more effort to play in tourney than diddy? lol, effort doesn't matter, character potential does. you see olimars winning mk banned events and i dont think anyone would argue that he is harder than diddy(also olimar ACTUALLY has a bad recovery, unlike your precious diddy kong). people who play this game are lazy and do not want to practice beating the best character, so he is getting banned. thats fine, because most of the community will enjoy it more and the game is already in a downward trend, might as well try something. it does suck that you have to practice/be spot on to beat mk, but most other characters allow you to screw up a little more without being punished.
we're doing persuasive speeches right now, and i haven't seen any logos appeal in your arguments sekou, you really seem to abuse pathos a lot. maybe instead of saying "read lux's post" you could formulate your own (logical)response? maybe use some numbers??? or cite a source? ?aren't u a stats major?
@DeLux: thank you for the information, i edited a little.
i think the east coast contributed a lot of the results that got mk banned because of their higher concentration of good(mk) players. in the mww we have like domo(quit for now), mj(who's been going toon link except dubs), but other than that I haven't seen any mks really dominating the scene. MJ places in our tournaments whether he uses TL or MK, mk just takes less mental effort to play... i think the ban would have been reasonable 3 years ago. the metagame is going to get obnoxious though =/ the only low tier that i can think of that would be hurt by removing rc/brinstar is jiggs :-/ what cp stages would you be as scared of mk on if rc/brin were gone? delfino? halberd? those sound significantly less cheesy
@sekou: i don't see m2k walking all over the top players with mk anymore... afaik he has lost a few tourney sets to a couple people lately. m2k has only lost to 17 people in a tourney set... you can't find that stat anywhere else(other mk players included) honestly if he wasn't in the scene you would be seeing more diversity. also who are you to say that playing diddy takes far more effort than mk? that is a general trend as you go down the tier list, with a few exceptions... gannon takes more effort to play in tourney than diddy? lol, effort doesn't matter, character potential does. you see olimars winning mk banned events and i dont think anyone would argue that he is harder than diddy(also olimar ACTUALLY has a bad recovery, unlike your precious diddy kong). people who play this game are lazy and do not want to practice beating the best character, so he is getting banned. thats fine, because most of the community will enjoy it more and the game is already in a downward trend, might as well try something. it does suck that you have to practice/be spot on to beat mk, but most other characters allow you to screw up a little more without being punished.
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2010
- Messages
- 9,313
Well yeah, don't get me wrong Brandon, I agree that Diddy is a broken piece of work.
But I say that about every character.
I just wanted to clear up some the technical information. Most of what you say still holds true without the hyperbole.
But I say that about every character.
I just wanted to clear up some the technical information. Most of what you say still holds true without the hyperbole.
Cook
Smash Master
The problem with just switching to another fighter if you get tired of Smash/the Smash community is that there aren't other fighters like Smash.
Also, my opinion on Diddy's recovery (because I know you all care):
I think that Diddy's recovery is SITUATIONALLY (lol, not a word) bad. That is, if you get him in the wrong position then he's ****ed. However, the same can be said for EVERYONE (well, MK and G&W are hard to get in a bad position, but it can be done!). The difference is all in how easy it is to get them in a bad position. In the great majority of situations, Diddy has a safe option for recovering, based on where/who the opponent is. His recovery is only bad when you get him in a certain spot, with no jump, while YOU are also in a certain spot. Usually if you're in this position then the Diddy ****ed up. It's just like Falco. Falco's up-b is TERRIBLE. If he falls below the ledge then he's usually done for. However, GETTING him to that position is hard because his side-b is amazing and his up-b above the ledge is a good mixup for when people start predicting the side-b (the startup lag actually helps him because it keeps him from being where the opponent goes to intercept). Now, people say Falco has a bad recovery, and some people say Diddy has a bad recovery, but how often do you really see good Diddy or Falco players get gimped (while they're ACTUALLY recovering, not because they decide to try some edgeguard that backfires). Imo, even Olimar's recovery isn't that bad because his whistle and awesome air dodge give him good options for getting past edgeguarding (yeah, if you don't DI well then he dies at like 90 because the bad guy just has to go grab the edge and poor Olimar can't quite make it; I'm just talking about situations where the opponent is actually edgeguarding).
If you want to see a bad recovery then look at Ganon or Link. Those characters have terrible recoveries because they have no options for mixups. You pretty much know where they're gonna be, so you cut them off. Diddy can put himself where you aren't/put himself where you don't expect him.
Also, my opinion on Diddy's recovery (because I know you all care):
I think that Diddy's recovery is SITUATIONALLY (lol, not a word) bad. That is, if you get him in the wrong position then he's ****ed. However, the same can be said for EVERYONE (well, MK and G&W are hard to get in a bad position, but it can be done!). The difference is all in how easy it is to get them in a bad position. In the great majority of situations, Diddy has a safe option for recovering, based on where/who the opponent is. His recovery is only bad when you get him in a certain spot, with no jump, while YOU are also in a certain spot. Usually if you're in this position then the Diddy ****ed up. It's just like Falco. Falco's up-b is TERRIBLE. If he falls below the ledge then he's usually done for. However, GETTING him to that position is hard because his side-b is amazing and his up-b above the ledge is a good mixup for when people start predicting the side-b (the startup lag actually helps him because it keeps him from being where the opponent goes to intercept). Now, people say Falco has a bad recovery, and some people say Diddy has a bad recovery, but how often do you really see good Diddy or Falco players get gimped (while they're ACTUALLY recovering, not because they decide to try some edgeguard that backfires). Imo, even Olimar's recovery isn't that bad because his whistle and awesome air dodge give him good options for getting past edgeguarding (yeah, if you don't DI well then he dies at like 90 because the bad guy just has to go grab the edge and poor Olimar can't quite make it; I'm just talking about situations where the opponent is actually edgeguarding).
If you want to see a bad recovery then look at Ganon or Link. Those characters have terrible recoveries because they have no options for mixups. You pretty much know where they're gonna be, so you cut them off. Diddy can put himself where you aren't/put himself where you don't expect him.
Reread your own post about DIddy, you are not correct:
No kill moves: you argue we stale our moves out. They don't kill early when fresh.
bananas being used against him- Diddy has the tools, but other characters can use his bananas against him, period, that is the point. Bananas don't discriminate. They will harm diddy all the same. Now if they couldn't be used AT ALL that would be a diff story. I would argue diddy is broken then...that said, there are characters that can use banans just as well...Wario and Toonlink are both good examples.
gimpable recovery: i can be knocked out of my barrels and put into a freefall state where i can not preform a move. Only then can i START to charge barrels. By then I'm too low and I die, or am in a situation where i can be attack again easily.
lag on all his important air attacks-- I meant substantial lag, which i hope was implied. I lay on my back after a fair, i pound the ground after my dair, nair is bad, and bair does not kill (yet has punishable lag). To answer your question on who doesn't have substantial lag on their important moves...Wolf (bair), Fox (nair,dair)...need I continue? oh ok....Kirby(bair),Luigi(all)...Moar? Ok...MK(fair,bair,nair), Peach (fair)
sdiable moves - see delux
[Sources: Common sense, Experience, and Smashboards]
My point is, Diddy has weaknesses. Abusable ones. MK has none real ones. That was my WHOLE point. MK is better than diddy overall. I wasn't arguing diddy is mid teir, or low. He is SUPER high, but it is because of his potential, what he allows the player to do, but not because of anything he can abuse and win with.
On a side note, I'll shut my mouth when it comes to my opinion on the game. I'll leave the game knowledge and logical arguments to you Brandon. I'll stick to what I do...winning matches <----- friendly jab :-D
No kill moves: you argue we stale our moves out. They don't kill early when fresh.
bananas being used against him- Diddy has the tools, but other characters can use his bananas against him, period, that is the point. Bananas don't discriminate. They will harm diddy all the same. Now if they couldn't be used AT ALL that would be a diff story. I would argue diddy is broken then
...that said, there are characters that can use banans just as well...Wario and Toonlink are both good examples.gimpable recovery: i can be knocked out of my barrels and put into a freefall state where i can not preform a move. Only then can i START to charge barrels. By then I'm too low and I die, or am in a situation where i can be attack again easily.
lag on all his important air attacks-- I meant substantial lag, which i hope was implied. I lay on my back after a fair, i pound the ground after my dair, nair is bad, and bair does not kill (yet has punishable lag). To answer your question on who doesn't have substantial lag on their important moves...Wolf (bair), Fox (nair,dair)...need I continue? oh ok....Kirby(bair),Luigi(all)...Moar? Ok...MK(fair,bair,nair), Peach (fair)
sdiable moves - see delux
[Sources: Common sense, Experience, and Smashboards]
My point is, Diddy has weaknesses. Abusable ones. MK has none real ones. That was my WHOLE point. MK is better than diddy overall. I wasn't arguing diddy is mid teir, or low. He is SUPER high, but it is because of his potential, what he allows the player to do, but not because of anything he can abuse and win with.
On a side note, I'll shut my mouth when it comes to my opinion on the game. I'll leave the game knowledge and logical arguments to you Brandon. I'll stick to what I do...winning matches <----- friendly jab :-D
BPx
Smash Lord
lol at those sources, 10/10 still best troll
resTy
Smash Champion
And by the way, my post wasn't directed at Joker's tournies or nothing. I was talking about Meta Knight's ban as a whole. I kind of see this like when Mango's Jigglypuff was reigning over Melee with an iron fist for around two straight years. This boy was just 4-stocking top players like they were children; it was disgusting. They didn't ban her despite how much everyone considered her broke because she had weaknesses. Meta Knight has a weakness, folks. You noobs are just bad and can't find it and banned the character as a result of your failures. Stay bad, Brawl community. *old Tyser coming out of retirement
resTy
Smash Champion
I just noticed how people are arguing over Diddy Kong now... *moves along
Your post missed the point of my post (thinking i'm claiming diddy is mid tier). But you complain about the sources on my follow up to your post? ok homey
As bonus:
"read lux's post" you could formulate your own (logical)response?"
"?aren't u a stats major?"
"also who are you to say that playing diddy takes far more effort than mk?"
"10/10 still best troll"
All personal attacks. In latin "ad hominem".
As per wikipedia...."An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it.[1] The ad hominem is normally described as a logical fallacy,[2][3][4] but it is not always fallacious; in some instances, questions of personal conduct, character, motives, etc., are legitimate and relevant to the issue.[5]"
ok homey As bonus:
"read lux's post" you could formulate your own (logical)response?"
"?aren't u a stats major?"
"also who are you to say that playing diddy takes far more effort than mk?"
"10/10 still best troll"
All personal attacks. In latin "ad hominem".
As per wikipedia
...."An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it.[1] The ad hominem is normally described as a logical fallacy,[2][3][4] but it is not always fallacious; in some instances, questions of personal conduct, character, motives, etc., are legitimate and relevant to the issue.[5]"
Cook
Smash Master
BECAUSE I FEEL LIKE ARGUING TODAY.
But, MK is def better than Diddy. I don't think there are many people that would seriously argue otherwise. Like I said, I just feel like arguing, lol.
Btw, I still don't know if I buy into the whole Diddy is better than Snake thing... Snake, he's a-pretty good, no?
Imo, not being able to kill early is a problem because of player mentality. People get in the mindset of "oh man, he's at like 120%, time to start spamming kill moves!" So, they do that and they stale out their move so it kills later than normal, plus they tend to do more punishable things because they're going for the kill move. There are two things that are more important than being able to kill early, Imo: being able to play safe and rack damage and having good kill setups. It doesn't matter if your character doesn't kill until 200% if he can rack damage well (which Diddy can do at any percent because banana combos aren't affected by percent) and the bad guy can't hit you. The problem is, like I said, people just start to get impatient too early. Also, it doesn't matter how early your move kills if you can't hit with it. A good example is DDD's up-tilt. Great kill move. Tough to hit with. Bananas can punish EVERYTHING and then lead to a d-smash.
Yes, other characters can use bananas, the point is that Diddy is BETTER with them than most characters. Maybe not all characters, Idk about my opinion there, but his glide toss and dash attack alone make him good with bananas. Also, they start out yours and your opponen has to take them from you, so it's not like they're completely indiscriminate.bananas being used against him- Diddy has the tools, but other characters can use his bananas against him, period, that is the point. Bananas don't discriminate. They will harm diddy all the same. Now if they couldn't be used AT ALL that would be a diff story. I would argue diddy is broken then
MK can be spiked out of his up-B and die. The question is how easy is it to GET you in that position. Not very. But I already did an essay on that.
...all you did was name an attack from each of these characters that doesn't have much lag. Diddy(dash attack). Anyway, I really wouldn't call d-air an important air attack on stage, which is where it would have lag. F-air does have substantial lag, but if that was really a big problem then people wouldn't use it as much as they do. So, of the three aerials you're likely to use onstage, one has lag. Also, since when does a move have to kill to be important/good? B-air is a great move for Diddy, imo, and it has SOME lag, but no more than most of the moves you mentioned for other characters. Another thing, if you use MK's f-air, n-air, or b-air in the same position where Diddy would land on his back from f-airing (while falling and close to the ground, basically) then all of those moves also have punishable lag. That didn't come out very clearly, but hopefully you get what I'm saying.
But, MK is def better than Diddy. I don't think there are many people that would seriously argue otherwise. Like I said, I just feel like arguing, lol.
Btw, I still don't know if I buy into the whole Diddy is better than Snake thing... Snake, he's a-pretty good, no?
@Cook: Since you ended your post with "But, MK is def better than Diddy. I don't think there are many people that would seriously argue otherwise. " ...Your comments on Diddy will be left unaddressed ...I was explaining how my character has weaknesses, has nothing abuse-able (bananas don't hate), and therefore isn't broken. Well..one thing...about the aerials...I was pointing this out as more proof that he can't abuse anything. Those characters listed can abuse their moves. I love my aerials, but I know I can't just throw them out. Yes, dash attack is lagless. But lol, no one fears that move, it is just annoying when i chain them into one another
Edit: I think diddy is better than snake because besides wario, he doesn't have any bad match ups. They are almost all even, IMHO. Snake has a legit problem with DDD and olimar (and i guess others on the match up list), but those 2 can just decimate snake. I actually think Snake has LOTS of potential as a character, but the fact he has almost NO air game, puts him under diddy kong.
...I was explaining how my character has weaknesses, has nothing abuse-able (bananas don't hate), and therefore isn't broken. Well..one thing...about the aerials...I was pointing this out as more proof that he can't abuse anything. Those characters listed can abuse their moves. I love my aerials, but I know I can't just throw them out. Yes, dash attack is lagless. But lol, no one fears that move, it is just annoying when i chain them into one another Edit: I think diddy is better than snake because besides wario, he doesn't have any bad match ups. They are almost all even, IMHO. Snake has a legit problem with DDD and olimar (and i guess others on the match up list), but those 2 can just decimate snake. I actually think Snake has LOTS of potential as a character, but the fact he has almost NO air game, puts him under diddy kong.
BPx
Smash Lord
i didn't directly respond to your post because you said you weren't going to argue anymore big dawg, remember? when you were like "On a side note, I'll shut my mouth when it comes to my opinion on the game. I'll leave the game knowledge and logical arguments to you Brandon. I'll stick to what I do...winning matches <----- friendly jab :-D"
i wasn't giving you the pleasure of ACTUALLY responding back to your points, because you don't even read nor care what i say zzzz :/
and not addressing cooks comments LMAo
i wasn't giving you the pleasure of ACTUALLY responding back to your points, because you don't even read nor care what i say zzzz :/
and not addressing cooks comments LMAo
~GregDang!~
Smash Master
Y'all should come down today to play. Put these theories to work.
resTy
Smash Champion
Don't encourage the Brawl, Greg >:O
~GregDang!~
Smash Master
You're the one who always wants to play people when you're drunk!
"it has SOME lag, but no more than most of the moves you mentioned for other characters"
Cook I missed this....
Fact Check:
Diddy bair: Landing Lag: 12
Wolf bair: LL: 8
Kirby bair: Aerial Lag: 9
Fox Dair :Landing Lag: 12 (I was wrong about this. However it has more shield stun (10 on foxes dair to diddy's bair 2..but still wrong)
Fox nair : Landing Lag: 9
Luigi nair: IASA on frame 11 (but i was flat out wrong on all the rest of them)
MK:Wrong...12,15,12
Should have added marth SHFF Fair Lag: 8
Peach: Landing Lag: 22 Autocancels on Frame: 20
Source: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=258564
My point was diddy doesn't have any air moves that can be abused. Idk if you want to consider those support for your case or mine.
@Bpx: If I missed the point of your post, explain. Given that I was initially agreeing with you...I got lost why you jumped on my post. i just didnt want people to think that i thought diddy was better than mk from a practical standpoint.
"Diddy on a bad day is EASILY mid to low tier, for hundreds of reasons...including, no kill moves, bananas being used against him, gimpable recovery, lag on all his important air attacks, sdi-able moves......"
In context, i was saying MK masks players abilitiy, diddy doesn't. I didn't see the point in you arguing against that...unless you believe diddy has some innate abilities that make him broken (transient moves, huge hitboxes, grab inifnites). If that is the case, in the words of AAliyah "Let me know".
Edit: @Bpx: Also it seemed like Cook understood what the context was, so there was no reason to respond. He just offering his opinion, on the support for my case. That doesn't change my premise that diddy isn't broken. He just didn't like my evidence. That is why i didn't feel like arguing back was important. I argued with you, because I wanted to make it clear that I love my character but he is no metaknight
Cook
I missed this....Fact Check:
Diddy bair: Landing Lag: 12
Wolf bair: LL: 8
Kirby bair: Aerial Lag: 9
Fox Dair :Landing Lag: 12 (I was wrong about this. However it has more shield stun (10 on foxes dair to diddy's bair 2..but still wrong)
Fox nair : Landing Lag: 9
Luigi nair: IASA on frame 11 (but i was flat out wrong on all the rest of them)
MK:Wrong...12,15,12
Should have added marth
SHFF Fair Lag: 8Peach: Landing Lag: 22 Autocancels on Frame: 20
Source: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=258564
My point was diddy doesn't have any air moves that can be abused. Idk if you want to consider those support for your case or mine.
@Bpx: If I missed the point of your post, explain. Given that I was initially agreeing with you...I got lost why you jumped on my post. i just didnt want people to think that i thought diddy was better than mk from a practical standpoint.
"Diddy on a bad day is EASILY mid to low tier, for hundreds of reasons...including, no kill moves, bananas being used against him, gimpable recovery, lag on all his important air attacks, sdi-able moves......"
In context, i was saying MK masks players abilitiy, diddy doesn't. I didn't see the point in you arguing against that...unless you believe diddy has some innate abilities that make him broken (transient moves, huge hitboxes, grab inifnites). If that is the case, in the words of AAliyah "Let me know".
Edit: @Bpx: Also it seemed like Cook understood what the context was, so there was no reason to respond. He just offering his opinion, on the support for my case. That doesn't change my premise that diddy isn't broken. He just didn't like my evidence. That is why i didn't feel like arguing back was important. I argued with you, because I wanted to make it clear that I love my character but he is no metaknight
BPx
Smash Lord
hey you're still wrong
on a side note i'm not going to argue anymore
on a side note i'm not going to argue anymore
Blank Mauser
Smash Champion
Yeah they tried that with Brawl+ and then minus. :3The problem with just switching to another fighter if you get tired of Smash/the Smash community is that there aren't other fighters like Smash.
Wish I could say those didn't have their time...
Brandon your character is dumb you ******. >:O Wario is the gayest piece of floaty camping ****. Takes no skill and all you do in doubles is fly around. *******.