Initial Dash Cancelled Fsmashes

[Shai Hulud]

So I've been messing around with Debug Mode a lot, and I noticed some unusual properties of the initial dash. I don't know if people are aware of this or not. It isn't hugely significant, but might be slightly useful for a few characters (Marth comes to mind).

By initial dash I mean something rather specific: a dash, from the standing animation, forward. This will not work from a dash dance, or if you dash the opposite direction you are facing. You can, however, do something like forward wavedash to IDC Fsmash.

The technique: During the first 3 frames of this initial dash, you can do an Fsmash in either direction. I haven't found any other attacks that work, and I have no idea why just the Fsmash works. It seems really illogical, but that's how it is.

Uses: Fast characters can get a decent amount of additional range for their fsmash. Marth can tip people from even further. Of course, if you can pivot well this technique is pretty useless as pivoting does the same thing but is more versatile. But pivoting is way harder than this, so some people may be able to find some uses for it.

 

[ThatGuy]

My guess is that those 3 frames are accident forgiveness, so that people who try to input a forward smash but don't have that frame perfect timing will still get it. It also happens in Brawl, although personally it felt a lot more prevalent there (to the point where I had difficulty getting close range dash attacks). It might also be a side effect of buffering.

 

[Kal]

Accident Forgiveness

 

[Shai Hulud]

My guess is that those 3 frames are accident forgiveness, so that people who try to input a forward smash but don't have that frame perfect timing will still get it. It also happens in Brawl, although personally it felt a lot more prevalent there (to the point where I had difficulty getting close range dash attacks). It might also be a side effect of buffering.

Accident forgiveness for smashes with the A button? I guess that makes sense, though I don't know why they would only do this in one direction. Hmm...it occurs to me this is probably the reason for JC USmashes as well, accident forgiveness. This still works with the C Stick of course, even though there is no timing involved for a C stick smash. I suppose that was done just for consistency.

Since I pretty much never use the A button for Fsmashes I didn't notice this happened until recently.

 

[Blu]

In a week Shai's gonna find some game-breaking technique usable with every character except for Fox and Falco, making them the worst characters in the game.

 

[ajp_anton]

I've been using this since forever, because I never use the C-stick.
With Luigi, you can do both slide-fsmashes (frame-perfect smash during wavedash) or slide-canceled fsmashes (cancel slide with dash, cancel dash with fsmash). It doesn't always work though, sometimes I accidentally do the one I don't want, but at least I try =).

 

[choknater]

yeah i discovered this in melee only after brawl came out LOL

in brawl i use the c-stick if i want instant dash attacks haha. in melee i think u gotta wait the frames

 

[Lovage]

well it makes sense doesn't it

they don't want people who use A for smash attacks to accidentally dash forward when they try to forward smash, this makes it easier to not mess up

 

[Strong Badam]

yeah, it's 3 frames. not all that useful, but good to know if you're trying to do quick dash attacks

anything else you wanted to look into that I might have already? could save you some time.

 

[ThatGuy]

yeah i discovered this in melee only after brawl came out LOL

in brawl i use the c-stick if i want instant dash attacks haha. in melee i think u gotta wait the frames

Yeah it's funny, it always irritated me in Brawl, yet I used C-stick on dash attacks for boost smashes. I don't quite understand why I didn't make the connection there until now :/.

 

[Shai Hulud]

Some people seem to think this technique only works if you use the A button for smashes, but this is not the case. It works for the C-stick also.

C-stick smashes are generally superior because you lose frames during charging for the A button smashes, if you hold the A button longer than a certain amount of frames, which varies from smash to smash. So I think this technique should be used mostly with the C-stick.

Strong Bad, you can gain a surprising amount of distance in 3 frames with some characters. I know it's only slightly useful, but with Marth for instance, you can get tippers from even farther. Personally I wouldn't use this technique nearly as much as pivoting, but I can pivot consistently, which serves the same function but is more versatile as you can do it any point in a dash (except the first 3 frames of this initial dash actually). For people who can't pivot well this could be occasionally useful, considering how easy it is. And even if you can pivot, there's no way to do it the first 3 frames, so this could still be occasionally useful.

 

[Kal]

Isn't there a minimum charge time on using the A-button for smash attacks? I was told once that you always charge for at least two frames if you use the A-button.

 

[choknater]

interesting

i've always naturally opted for c-stick if i wanna do it quickly

even a 1 frame difference is noticeable after a long time

 

[Shai Hulud]

interesting

i've always naturally opted for c-stick if i wanna do it quickly

even a 1 frame difference is noticeable after a long time

I actually just checked this and I was mistaken. It depends what character you are using and the specific Fsmash, as to how many frames before the Smash takes longer. I was thinking it was 1 frame because I checked Fox's upsmash which is 1 frame, and that was the only one I could remember. It actually varies widely from Smash to Smash though. Fox's Fsmash for example you can press A for up to six frames and get the fastest smash possible.

 

[Strong Badam]

Isn't there a minimum charge time on using the A-button for smash attacks? I was told once that you always charge for at least two frames if you use the A-button.

Nah, but some smashes have charge frames as soon as frame 2 (Sheik Dsmash for example) and I doubt you can let go of A within 2 frames.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Wow, didn't know this.

I wonder how much more distance Marth can cover in those 3 frames. I'm trying to think of a time where I wouldn't just walk lol

 

[Shai Hulud]

Wow, didn't know this.

I wonder how much more distance Marth can cover in those 3 frames. I'm trying to think of a time where I wouldn't just walk lol

It's difficult to test exactly, but Marth appears to gain about 2/3 a character width (using Marth as a reference), when dashing for 3 frames. Walking for 3 frames gains barely any range, since Marth's walk starts out super slow. It appears Marth covers the same distance as dashing 3 frames by walking 9 - 10 frames.

Marth's walk has three speeds: slow, middle, fast. You start walking slow on frame 1, then middle on frame 12, then fast on frame 36.

If you are already walking fast, which you can do from a forward wavedash immediately, then you would gain about as much distance as by IDC cancel in 3 frames before starting the smash, but during the fast walk, Marth gains a lot of extra distance because he slides on the ground as he is doing the Fsmash. So a forward Fsmash from a fast walk has INSANE range.

I would just use this technique if you are standing and not quite in tipper range. You might surprise your opponent when your sword appears to reach longer than it should

Strongbad: Fox's Upsmash starts to charge on frame 2, so if you hold A longer than 1 frame it will come out slower. I don't know of any other smashes that require 1 frame timing with the A button though. But I haven't checked most of them.