Infinites: Why, exactly, are they allowed?

[Foxy]

When infinites and chaingrabs start WINNING TOURNAMENTS, then this will be an issue.

If it isn't winning tournaments, then it doesn't matter how inescapable it is. It's not that good. It's not making IC's and Falco into Snake Tier.

IT DOESN'T MATTER. Stop crying because you got beat by some DDD player. (No, I don't care if you ACTUALLY beat him or what have you.)

Until you find a major tourney that was won by a player who abused infinites, please, stop posting or go read one of the other ten thousand threads on chain grabbing and IC's.

 

[Yuna]

Can you please follow your own ****ing signature's advice?
1) Alright, my bad, I didn't really follow Melee infinites. It doesn't matter.

Funny, then you should not talk about them, taking your own advice (off my own advice).

2) No, actually, you're not getting it.

Whether we ban something shouldn't depend on how it affects tournament results. It should depend on whether they limit competitivity.

No it doesn't. That's not how it's done, now or in the past. No matter how much you whine, that won't change. If we banned anything that limited competitive viability, then we'd also have to ban entire characters because of them are just too good and limit the usefulness of the bottom tier. In fact, we'd have to ban everyone but Mid and Bottom Tier because the Bottom Tier are still useless at the moment, even if we remove all of the infinites and whatnot because the Bottom Tier characters aren't even Bottom Tier because they can be infinited!

Let's ban anyone who's got a combo that's more than 4 hits because, well, it's just too darn good! Ban Snake and Meta-Knight because they win every single tournament. They're obviously limiting "competitivity" because no one else is winning or standing a chance of winning.

Also, "competitivity", not a word.

I've already made my case for why they do, and you decided to completely ignore it.

Umm... no I didn't. I replied to your entire post, point by point. And refuted it point by point.

Here are the facts: If an IC player did NOTHING but infinite the whole game, he would undoubtedly win. You can't escape once you're grabbed. He can do it until you're dead. Theoretically, uneless the IC player screws up, once he gets a grab it's a stock loss for his opponent WITHOUT HIS OPPONENT INFLUENCING IT. Technically, if this is done every time, there wouldn't be a player who could lose with ICs.

Only, he needs to actually hit with it first. You, as the opponent, can just kill Nana first. It's not that hard. What the ICs have is a very good thing if it hits. But it has to hit first. The ICs have a hard time grabbing people in Brawl.

Also, it's not even so good they win tournaments. It's just so good you have to work hard against them to not lose. The same can be said about a jillion things in the game we'd need to ban since they're just so good. No spamming arrows as Pit on Final Destination because, well, it's too good against Ganondorf!

So why doesn't this happen in the results? Because people hate infinites, and IC players realize that if they did NOTHING but their infinite, no one would like playing with them (or even like them much in general, to be honest). No one would think the win is 'legit' if he did nothing but infinite. That's why it doesn't happen as much, but theoretically it could.

Or maybe the infinites just aren't that good. Nana is easily killed and separated from Popo. There, where's your infinite now?

And NO, their infinite is not a MOVE like Ike's fsmash, you f*cking idiot. I said why it's not like 6 times in my main post which you didn't read. You can do so many things to avoid Ike's fsmash from not happening. Once you are grabbed with the ICs, technically they could have you dead without you doing anything. That's not something that's debatable.

But there are overpowered moves. 4 hits and you die. One infinite and you die. 1 hit KOs banned but 4-hit KOs not? Why? Because 4 hits is just that much less bad than 1? Where does it end? What if someone discovers a 2-hit KO combo? Ban? Not ban?

PLEASE STOP IGNORING THIS: INFINITES MEAN THAT THEY CAN'T STOP UNLESS THE PERSON SCREWS UP. CHAINGRABS STOP WHEN CERTAIN THINGS HAPPEN (%, end of stage). COMBOS STOP AT CERTAIN PERCENTS. INFINITES GO ON FOREVER. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING.

The only character that can infinite in Brawl without the use of a wall is ICs. The rest are chaingrabs or grab-release chains or Dsmash chains that all eventually end. They cannot go on forever. Educate yourself before speaking.

I am not suggesting we ban ICs. I am saying ban their infinite.
I am not saying ICs are the best characters. I am saying that they can kill someone without allowing them to react. That, Yuna, is what should be banned.

No, it shouldn't. And really, how is it not allowing people to react? They have to grab first. You can react by not allowing yourself to get grabbed. It's hard, yeah. But since when do we ban things because preventing them from happening is hard?

3) You're an idiot, as I've already said. You didn't even give a reason for this.

You want a run-down of why you were wrong? Fine:
1) DeDeDe cannot infinite 5 characters. This is blatantly wrong. It's not an infinite. It has to end eventually either because you run out of stage or because they just fly off too far for you to re-grab them. Of course, they'll have enough % to die from a throw before that, but it's still not an infinite, as you have yourself defined.
2) No one can escape DeDeDe's "infinite". Because it only works on 5 characters and it's inescapable against those 5 until a set % at which time he can kill them with a throw, anyway.

I've defined infinite for you, which you (characteristically) ignored. I've said why DDD has an infinite and a CG, and why they are different.

You can ignore them if you please, but in the end, I'm still right.

DeDeDe has zero infinites. Unless it's against a wall... and we banned those stages.

the best should win yuna, not the 5 year old whos brother taught him how to shield grab and infinite grab. (yes I know thats a stupid generalization.)

What defines "The best"? The guy who managed to outwit his opponent repeatedly and chip away at his health and then finish him off with a strong attack? Or the guy who camps his opponent to death? Or the guy who picks Meta-Knight and combos his opponents halfway across the stage?

Yoshi sucks. You literally have to be 10 times as good as Snake to win. Does this mean that Yoshi should auto-win against Snake?

IC infiniting requires only one mistake, but then again, Nana is easy to kill off. And some other characters require only four mistakes. So why is four so much less bad as one? And where does it end? Do we ban anything that's any good? Do we ban everyone but the Bottom Tier?

Because, really, you can only be "the best" if everyone is forced to play the same character. Otherwise, it comes down to what character has the advantage in that matchup a lot of the time.

I agree.

That's why Yuna is an idiot for saying 'SO WHAT DEAL WITH HAVING A BAD ADVANTAGE.'

It's not just an advantage. An real advantage is like Fox v Mewtwo in Melee. Mewtwo could still win depending on the skill level of both people involved. An infinite is like DDD facing DK, and having it in the rules that DK has to jump off to his death each time. He can't win BECAUSE he has no control over winning.

The disadvantage isn't even that bad. ICs have a bad grab. They have a har time shieldgrabbing because of their bad traction. Nana doesn't even shield most of the time, Nana doesn't DI, Nana dies much easier and Nana doesn't even recover unless you tell her to, which you can't if you're being hit.

In other words, Nana is easy to kill. Heck, you don't even have to kill her, just separate her from Popo and the infinite will be impossible.

It's not a HUGE DISADVANTAGE YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING AGAINST. Just don't get grabbed 'til Nana's dead or at least separated from Popo. Hard? Yah. Impossible? Nah. Yes, you only need 3 mistakes to lose a game, but that's not a huge disadvantage if it's quite easy to not make those 3 mistakes if you play the game "right".

Also, even if it was, we still do not ban things if they just create a huge advantage against a select few characters. We ban it if they create a huge advantage against everyone or almost everyone because then the game would devolve into only 4 characters even standing a chance at not-being-crushed. IC's infinites screws everyone but ICs over... but they're easy to not get caught in.

You just have to alter your playstyle against ICs. Annoying? Yes. Hard? No. Taking the various chaingrabs and infinites into account, ICs are not impossible or even that hard or even hard to beat depending on who you play as and how you play.

You have to work harder than the ICs, yes. But it's not even that hard. Just because you can't do it doesn't mean other people can't.

The rest of the infinites don't really apply since they're limited to a few characters and/or require a wall (and we banned all stages with a permanent wall to prevent this, anyway).

 

[Patsie]

Don't be an *******. It's most obvious that you're beat by the fact that you're SCREAMING INCESSANTLY just to get your point across.

What I think we have here is someone who just got beaten in a tournament because they were too ignorant to ban Corneria, and then got infinited in the wall and lost because of DDD.

And for CG'ing and camping, it's not really that hard to use a character with a range ability, whether it be a space animal, IC, Pikachu, Lucario, Ness, Lucas, Mario, Luigi, Link, Toon Link, (etc the list goes on) and just spam your range attack until the camper decides to stop camping to infinite and come up and fight you properly.

Or just use a decently swift character and you won't have to worry about grabs.


Is this really a legit question? Charge up your punch, use the down B, do whatever you want to! I mean seriously, is DDD's grab range really farther than DK's Charge Punch range? Or his DownB ability's radius?

I think not.

What I think what we have here is an idiot or a Yuna fanboy. Or, likely, both.

I took on that tone because of Yuna's absolutely obnoxious reply. I put things in caps because Yuna decided to not respond to them when I said them first. But that's ok, I guess you can ignore my original post which was calm, rational, and courteous. It's not like other points haven't been ignored in this post.

No, I haven't been infinited, ever. I've been chaingrabbed, but I haven't been infinited. You would know that if you read the post, but, as always, those of lesser intelligence love to jump the gun.

How many times have you played a game against a competent player and not been grabbed? If your answer is anywhere over 5, you either play against really ****ty people or you're lying.

The point is: saying "don't get grabbed" just dodges the question of how bad infinites are. I've said this a million times before, maybe you should look into them. I don't feel like repeating myself.

The problem is not how to avoid the grab. The problem is, avoiding the grab shouldn't be the ONLY solution to the problem of infinites.

 

[Foxy]

Is it time to link him some Sirlin?

Scrubs, soft bans, playing to win, Akuma, etc.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/intermediates-guide/what-should-be-banned/

 

[Taiki]

Story time:
I main King Dedede and when I went to a tourny in NY where infinites are not banned. I got matched up with this professional player, Bum round 1. Thing is, he mained DK. I figured I could infinite him all match and be on my way. Bum realized that getting grabbed once meant his stock so he made it a priority to not get grabbed. So he abused DK's abnormaly lengthy tilts and stayed in midair prompting me to come and grab him on landing, he would proceed to dodge and punish me. This is how it went both matches (we played 2 out of three, he won the first 2). I did manage to grab him a few times over the set but i was so caught up in the easy way out I got punished easily. The best had won.

What I'm trying to say is Dedede's infinite is a immovable chaingrab, and in order to chain grab I need to grab someone first. Simply because I couldn't grab him from midair, nor could grab in midair, he was able to outspace me and punish anything I did.

Infinites are allowed in tournaments because there's always a way around that grab of death. From King Dedede's standpoint mario can jump and fireball for spacing, Samus has Zair, dk has abnormal tilt range, bowser has the side-b in midair, luigi has fireballs as well. The 5 characters can always set it so they can space in midair and continue an offensive or if they feared a shield grab, back up.

No one is debating that fact that infinites mean certain death to those who get grabbed, but saying don't get grabbed isn't that out of the question, at least for King Dedede.

 

[Yuna]

What I think what we have here is an idiot or a Yuna fanboy. Or, likely, both.

Anyone who says anything remotely similar to what I'm saying must be an idiot or a Yunafanboy... even though the majority of posters in this thread are saying it.

I took on that tone because of Yuna's absolutely obnoxious reply.

Umm... you kinda started it.

I put things in caps because Yuna decided to not respond to them when I said them first.

Yes I did.

But that's ok, I guess you can ignore my original post which was calm, rational, and courteous. It's not like other points haven't been ignored in this post.

How about you stop ignoring the peopel saying that Nana is easily separated from Popo or even killed, thus preventing the infinite?

Stuff.

Blah blah. All answered in my previous post already.

The problem is not how to avoid the grab. The problem is, avoiding the grab shouldn't be the ONLY solution to the problem of infinites.

How to avoid IC's infinites:
KILL NANA! Or just separate her from Popo. It's... not... that... hard!

 

[Yuna]

Taiki: Bum is a woman the last time I checked (correct me if I'm wrong).

 

[BurningCrusader777]

Just to clear things up, Fox does have a non-wall infinite, but it's only on a very small portion of the cast.

Shine --> Perfect Wavedash --> Shine --> Backwards Perfect Wavedash --> Shine --> ...
on Link, Zelda, and Peach, and

Shine --> Wavedash --> SH(FF)L dair [land on opposite side] --> Shine --> Backwards Wavedash --> SH(FF)L dair --> ...
on Captain Falcon

 

[Yuna]

Just to clear things up, Fox does have a non-wall infinite, but it's only on a very small portion of the cast.

Shine --> Perfect Wavedash --> Shine --> Backwards Perfect Wavedash --> Shine --> ...
on Link, Zelda, and Peach, and

Shine --> Wavedash --> SH(FF)L dair [land on opposite side] --> Shine --> Backwards Wavedash --> SH(FF)L dair --> ...
on Captain Falcon

Smash and tap-DI the Dair.

 

[Wölf]

The problem is not how to avoid the grab. The problem is, avoiding the grab shouldn't be the ONLY solution to the problem of infinites.

You see the problem is, it's not. I'm not going to lie and say I haven't gotten grabbed in the last 5 matches; THAT would prove me to be an idiot. But it's not that hard to use a play style that limits the grabs and grab opportunities. Again, what's so hard about using a range game? Or an aerial hit-n-run game? Hell, what's so difficult about, as Yuna said, "separating Nana from Popo"? (Go on, call me a fanboy, that just shows how ignorant you really are. I've been here for a whole 2 days; I'd love to find a person who is charismatic enough to have 2-day old fanboys. )

And even if avoiding the grab WAS the only solution, you should just have to deal with it, or adapt and create a better strategy.

Bye

 

[Foxy]

Story time:
I main King Dedede and when I went to a tourny in NY where infinite are not banned. I got matched up with this professional player Bum round 1. Thing is, he mained DK. I figured i could infinite him all match and be on my way. Bum realized that getting grabbed once meant his stock so he made it a priority to not get grabbed. So he abused DK's abnormaly lengthy tilts and stayed in midair prompting me to come and grab him on landing, he would proceed to dodge and punish me. This is how it went both matches (we played 2 out of three, he won the first 2). I did manage to grab him a few times over the set but i was so caught up in the easy way out I got punished easily. The best had won.

What I'm trying to say is Dedede's infinite is a immovable chaingrab, and in order to chain grab I need to grab someone first. Simply because I couldn't grab him from midair, nor could grab in midair, he was able to outspace me and punish anything I did.

Infinites are allowed in tournaments because there's always a way around that grab of death. From King Dedede's standpoint mario can jump and fireball for spacing, Samus has Zair, dk has abnormal tilt range, bowser has the side-b in midair, luigi has fireballs as well. The 5 characters can always set it so they can space in midair and continue an offensive or if they feared a shield grab, back up.

No one is debating that fact that infinites mean certain death to those who get grabbed, but saying don't get grabbed isn't that out of the question, at least for King Dedede.

PERFECT example. Thank you.

A better player who understands the matchup can work around its disadvantages. Obviously, DDD isn't so overpowered with his grabs that you were able to win easily; in fact, the contrary.

 

[Taiki]

Yuna: Unless he had a sex change since last week he was dude. Unless there are multiple bums. I'm talking about the web2zone weekly in NY. PC Chris occasionally shows up there, and Bum hosts it. Theres a thread in regional zones

 

[Wölf]

Story time:
I main King Dedede and when I went to a tourny in NY where infinites are not banned. I got matched up with this professional player, Bum round 1. Thing is, he mained DK. I figured I could infinite him all match and be on my way. Bum realized that getting grabbed once meant his stock so he made it a priority to not get grabbed. So he abused DK's abnormaly lengthy tilts and stayed in midair prompting me to come and grab him on landing, he would proceed to dodge and punish me. This is how it went both matches (we played 2 out of three, he won the first 2). I did manage to grab him a few times over the set but i was so caught up in the easy way out I got punished easily. The best had won.

What I'm trying to say is Dedede's infinite is a immovable chaingrab, and in order to chain grab I need to grab someone first. Simply because I couldn't grab him from midair, nor could grab in midair, he was able to outspace me and punish anything I did.

Infinites are allowed in tournaments because there's always a way around that grab of death. From King Dedede's standpoint mario can jump and fireball for spacing, Samus has Zair, dk has abnormal tilt range, bowser has the side-b in midair, luigi has fireballs as well. The 5 characters can always set it so they can space in midair and continue an offensive or if they feared a shield grab, back up.

No one is debating that fact that infinites mean certain death to those who get grabbed, but saying don't get grabbed isn't that out of the question, at least for King Dedede.

This sort of shows my entire last post in a story. Thanks! Now we only need someone who's done the same type of thing against IC...

 

[Yuna]

Yuna: Unless he had a sex change since last week he was dude. Unless there are multiple bums. I'm talking about the web2zone weekly in NY. PC Chris occasionally shows up there, and Bum hosts it. Theres a thread in regional zones

Hmm... maybe I'm remembering it wrong. I thought Bum was one of the U.S.'s top-rated female smashers.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Ok, break people. Slow down for just a second here.

Since this is obviously the 'Patsie and Yuna Show', you guys need to calm down. For serious. You ignoring each other now, and it's really dumb.

Patsie: I actually agree with a few of your points, but the fact of the matter is that this community (as ban-happy as the East Coast is sometimes) will not outright ban a strategy. If there is an enabler, they will ban that instead (such as the walls for wall infinites). It's tradition. They never did it in the past (they never even banned Wobbling outright), and they won't do it now. Yeah, from a logical standpoint it is kind of dumb, but that's how this community operates. If you want to change it, 'Theory Fighter' is not the way to go. Host some tournaments, make and successfully enforce limits on infinites, videotape the whole thing, then present your irrefutable evidence then.

Yuna: Listen man, you know I respect your skills as a debater and everything, and I know we've had some... rough patches in the past, but there is something you really need to learn. You can't refute an argument in one sentence unless you are the most amazing logician in the world, and eloquent though you may be, you are certainly not the 'best logician in the world'. The more you used your (intendedly) witty one-liners and snappy half-sentences, the less people listen to you and the more disjointed and meaningless your own arguments become, which results in... well, this thread. This guy may be a little uninformed at times, but he's made some good arguments based off of sound logic, and you don't even give him the credit for that. Come on. Seriously.

Now, you two go to your corners and actually think about the 'discussion' that's been going on in this thread. I hate to sound preachy, but you're both getting absolutely NO discussion from this thread, and it's a waste of posts.

 

[Pythag]

Even if nana is separate, can't popo dthrow chain grab characters similar to DDD?
Granted that actually ends. That question is more just out of curiosity.

 

[Yuna]

Since this is obviously the 'Patsie and Yuna Show', you guys need to calm down. For serious. You ignoring each other now, and it's really dumb.

Yuna: Listen man, you know I respect your skills as a debater and everything, and I know we've had some... rough patches in the past, but there is something you really need to learn. You can't refute an argument in one sentence unless you are the most amazing logician in the world, and eloquent though you may be, you are certainly not the 'best logician in the world'. The more you used your (intendedly) witty one-liners and snappy half-sentences, the less people listen to you and the more disjointed and meaningless your own arguments become, which results in... well, this thread. This guy may be a little uninformed at times, but he's made some good arguments based off of sound logic, and you don't even give him the credit for that. Come on. Seriously.

I'm not ignoring anything Patsie's saying. I'm replying to his posts point by point. Sometimes I might miss something or I might not reply to something I have already recently replied to (be it written by Patsie or someone else) because that would be stupid.

I use one-liners only when what I want to say has already been said. Also, I've used one single one-liner in this entire thread.

He made some good arguments, yeah. And? I've made arguments that are tons better, refuting his arguments. Should I go "Well, those were good, here are some better ones"? He's refusing to see it from my side. I acknowledge that it's annoying and hard to fight an IC's. I acknowledge that you have to work harder than the ICs for a kill (i.e., you need to hit them more). Also, while he's made some good arguments, he's also made tons of horrendously bad ones and ignored any good argument anyone else throws at him.

I don't praise people like that. I praise people if they argue eloquently and civilly (and no matter what he thinks, he started out with the caps and the insults and the slurs way before anyone else did) and if they sound like they could actually learn to accept that maybe they're wrong. Patsie doesn't really fit those criteria.

But it's not impossible... or even that hard. He seems to think it is because "one grab and you die", completely ignoring me and others when we say "How about you try to separate Popo and Nana first? Or just outright kill Nana? Not that hard. And this is why.". He ignores that and goes on to rant (again) about how "one grab = one KO".

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

I'll respond more when I'm back from my meeting.

Infinites ARE overpowered if they used to their fullest potential. DDD can grab Mario and kill him from 0%. There is no combo that does that. Combo's also can be escaped, either through opponent ability or situational stuff. Infinites can't be escaped, ever, unless the person doing it screws up. That's why they're bad. Read my original post for why.


I'll respond to the ICG thing when I'm back. But please read what I said in my original post, because I still don't feel like that's refuted, and Yuna certainly doesn't offer any intelligence to rebut what I've said.

Combos are not the standard by which to measure things. Just because something is more powerful than combos doesn't mean it's broken. So DDD can CG Mario to death. Tough luck Mario, you have a bad matchup. One bad matchup. That's it.

I'm waiting for your response to my ICG post.

 

[BurningCrusader777]

Smash and tap-DI the Dair.

Even in that case, he still has the Perfect Wavedash one vs. Link, Peach, and Zelda.

 

[Eszett]

Ya Patsie, when do we end up distinguishing an infinite (which traditionally is an inescapable set of maneuvers strung together) with a combo (which traditionally is an inescapable set of maneuvers strung together)?

It seems to me that Brawl "infinites" are just like traditional combos. Are you trying to say we should ban combos? I don't see any other way to allow a "ban on infinites".

 

[Yuna]

Even in that case, he still has the Perfect Wavedash one vs. Link, Peach, and Zelda.

That's why you Smash and tap-DI every single hit (or at least as many as you can) on the Dair.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I think the main reason why debates like this come up in the first place is because as Yuna stated, people forget that the point of competitive gaming is to win. People lose sight of that, and arguments arise because of it.

Sorry to quote something so far back. Playing to win = First person to get a grab wins.
Seriously, I'm thinking of attending tournaments in the future. If anyone infinates me, my controller is going to end up in their eye.
Plus with infinates it's not a test of skill. What's the point in that?

And none of that "Don't get grabbed" crap. That's like saying "Don't get hit", you WILL get grabbed.

 

[GimR]

do you guys really have time to argue about this with MANY PARAGRAPHS of dialog?


I'm just sayin', don't you have something more productive to do with your time?

 

[Zankoku]

And none of that "Don't get grabbed" crap. That's like saying "Don't get hit", you WILL get grabbed.

 

[SnatchForFree]

But that makes you have to choose a certain character to stand a chance, it may end up as a IC vs. anti IC which is not a good thing and is going to piss off a lot of people who only have 1 or 2 mains. I dont know how much of an issue it will be, but if it becomes a problem many people may lose thier mains because they have so much trouble separating nana. Its an old argument in which all of our points have been said, even in melee, and really wont be a problem unless IC start winning most of the tournys with just chaingrabs. However, there are things that are just as stupid in brawl as a infinite chaingrab, like the whorenado (MK) which forces you to go character specific also.

The IC's are just like any other character who has good and bad match ups.

 

[Wölf]

This post wins.

/thread.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Sorry to quote something so far back. Playing to win = First person to get a grab wins.
Seriously, I'm thinking of attending tournaments in the future. If anyone infinates me, my controller is going to end up in their eye.
Plus with infinates it's not a test of skill. What's the point in that?

And none of that "Don't get grabbed" crap. That's like saying "Don't get hit", you WILL get grabbed.

Maybe you will get grabbed, but that's your problem. Good players do not get grabbed.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I was insinuating that you will get hit, too. It's pretty inevitable, you can't avoid being hit forever, like you can't avoid getting grabbed forever.
Plus mum said never to listen to t-shirts I don't know ;_;

And for Angmar, I'm sure there's not a foolproof way of avoiding being grabbed. Good players avoid getting grabbed more, but I doubt the best brawler in the world can get away with not getting grabbed forever.

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

Sorry to quote something so far back. Playing to win = First person to get a grab wins.
Seriously, I'm thinking of attending tournaments in the future. If anyone infinates me, my controller is going to end up in their eye.
Plus with infinates it's not a test of skill. What's the point in that?

And none of that "Don't get grabbed" crap. That's like saying "Don't get hit", you WILL get grabbed.

Read Yuna's posts again. He tells you exactly how to fight the Ice Climbers.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Ok, seriously, competitive players (especially ones who have been on Brawl's ass; not pointing out or naming anyone) have NO RIGHT to say 'don't get grabbed' anymore. You can't spend nearly 3 months complaining about how overpowered shield-grabbing is and how campy Brawl is and how stupidly effective the defensive game is and then turn around and expect anyone to respect them when they say 'don't get grabbed'. That's why I try as much as possible to refrain from saying that.

Stop being hypocrites.

 

[AlphaZealot]

We can make this really simple: do infinites break the game?
No.
If you disagree, feel free to point to how Wobbles and ChuDat were sweeping the competition in Melee in tournaments where wobbling was allowed.
Oh, right, they didn't, because "don't get grabbed" was a viable argument and wobbling proved not to be as big a deal as some of the whiners and moaners claimed.
"Don't get grabbed" should not be taken literally, its the thought behind the argument, it means, basically, "try your ****ed hardest not to be grabbed". Its entirely possible to avoid being grabbed for much of your stock, a grab at 80% =/= being grabbed at 0%. To frequently those who are against infinites make the assumption that everything takes place at the beginning of the stock, when that simply isn't the case.

Why should we wait to see it break the game?

Because if it doesn't, we are arbitrarily limiting certain aspects of certain characters just because some people think something is to difficult to deal with. All the DDD CG arguments on walk off stages are void if you, for example, play a character who can't be CG'd, and some characters that can be CG'd (Snake and Diddy Kong) have easy strategies to prevent being killed from the walk off edges (keep mines or bananas behind them). If no one is winning tournaments with these techniques then we know some people posess the ability to get around it. That there are work around, even if they are really hard, then infinites should not be banned.

From reading your first post, it seems like your entire argument boils down to: infinites are to easy to perform and are to hard to get by, the lopsided risk/reward situation means we should ban it.

People use to have gripes about Peach's D-Smash in Melee but then everyone learned to L-cancel. Same thing with Link's Up-B out of shield before L-Canceling. They argued that it was to easy to do and the reward for doing it was to high. Take another example from another game, the zerg rush in Starcraft is tremendously easier to pull off than it is to counter. Under much of the logic in your first post, it should have been banned. Yet, it wasn't, and all the people who are actually good at the game can get around it.

Difficulty in performing something does not have to equal high reward.
Ease of performing something does not have to equal low reward.

This is, I think, where you are tripping up.

 

[Brainiac_man]

If someone infinites me, I just punch them in the nuts, hey, play to win right?

I have this to say to anyone who disagrees with my strategy: "Don't get punched in the nuts."

Seriously though, against IC infinte-ers, I just use IC, can't chaingrab two characters at once.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Which is why "Don't get grabbed," is a perfectly viable argument.

You WILL get grabbed eventually to say Don't get grabbed is far from a viable argument.
What does matter is WHEN you get grabbed.

For Falco (using Fox since he is among the fastest fallers) you can get hit up to 45%.

For DDD its around 50%.
For the unlucky 5 (Samus, Dk and three others whom I cannot remember) I think its much higher. Except DK he gets infinited by DDD's CG.

None of which counting what they can do afterwards.

Of course i do agree that one should be trying to avoid getting grabbed, but saying don't get grabbed is like saying don't get hit. It will eventually happen what matters though is what the person does before that eventual grab occurs yes?

 

[MzNetta]

Patsie, reading your posts causes me physical pain.
Stop complaining about concepts that you have a very loose grasp on, and leave these decisions to people who know what theyre doing.
Stop getting grabbed, and stop *****ing when you can't.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Beautiful Takun way to address the guy's argument.

"Tough **** you know nothing you stupid baby".

Do what yuna and AZ did, provide an actual argument rather than bash the hell out of him.

 

[Yuna]

Ok, seriously, competitive players (especially ones who have been on Brawl's ass; not pointing out or naming anyone) have NO RIGHT to say 'don't get grabbed' anymore. You can't spend nearly 3 months complaining about how overpowered shield-grabbing is and how campy Brawl is and how stupidly effective the defensive game is and then turn around and expect anyone to respect them when they say 'don't get grabbed'. That's why I try as much as possible to refrain from saying that.

Stop being hypocrites.

I'm sorry, what? We've been spending 3 months saying "The defensive game is way too good!"? We've just been complaining about how interminably boring it is.

Also, defensive game =/= grabbing. What are you gonna do in order to not get grabbed? Play friggin' defensively! Yes, you camp the ICs! Surprise!

 

[imdavid]

listen to patsie with less then 200 or so posts who obviously doesn't know what he's talking about... or listen to Yuna who's been here forever with more than 6000 posts, with lots of tourney experience, smash moderator, and over all cool guy? Hrm...

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

listen to patsie with less then 200 or so posts who obviously doesn't know what he's talking about... or listen to Yuna who's been here forever with more than 6000 posts, with lots of tourney experience, smash moderator, and over all cool guy? Hrm...

Or listen to Yuna because he's actually giving helpful advice on how to tackle the IC's (and possibly DDD).

 

[Zankoku]

Yuna is not a mod. I'd listen to whoever has better reasoning, which in this thread happens to be Yuna and AZ, not Patsie.

 

[imdavid]

of course, that falls under lots of tourney experience

edit: oh noes, it ankoku! *hides under rock*