Patsie
Smash Journeyman
Well, it's easier to change how someone thinks about a technique than it is about a person =).
If you wanted to say that, why didn't you just do it originally? No need to flame about things.
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Infinites: Why, exactly, are they allowed?
- Thread starter Patsie
- Start date
- Status
If you wanted to say that, why didn't you just do it originally? No need to flame about things.
Foxy
Smash Master
God****it, guys. What you think of chain grabs and infinites is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to whether they warrant a ban. Yes, they're usually inescapable. Yes, it makes some matchups complete sh*t. Yes, they can be free damage.
No, they don't appear in even half of the matches you play. No, they don't allow a bad player to beat a good player. No, they aren't better than some non-chain grab or infinite moves like Snake's ftilt and Metaknight's Tornado. No, THEY AREN'T WINNING TOURNIES.
THEY WON'T BE BANNED UNTIL THEY AFFECT TOURNEY RESULTS
THEY WON'T BE BANNED UNTIL THEY AFFECT TOURNEY RESULTS
THEY WON'T BE BANNED UNTIL THEY AFFECT TOURNEY RESULTS
THEY WON'T BE BANNED UNTIL THEY AFFECT TOURNEY RESULTS
THEY WON'T BE BANNED UNTIL THEY AFFECT TOURNEY RESULTS
THEY WON'T BE BANNED UNTIL THEY AFFECT TOURNEY RESULTS
THEY WON'T BE BANNED UNTIL THEY AFFECT TOURNEY RESULTS
THEY WON'T BE BANNED UNTIL THEY AFFECT TOURNEY RESULTS
THEY WON'T BE BANNED UNTIL THEY AFFECT TOURNEY RESULTS
THEY AREN'T BROKEN UNTIL THEY AFFECT TOURNEY RESULTS
THEY AREN'T BROKEN UNTIL THEY AFFECT TOURNEY RESULTS
THEY AREN'T BROKEN UNTIL THEY AFFECT TOURNEY RESULTS
THEY AREN'T BROKEN UNTIL THEY AFFECT TOURNEY RESULTS
THEY AREN'T BROKEN UNTIL THEY AFFECT TOURNEY RESULTS
THEY AREN'T BROKEN UNTIL THEY AFFECT TOURNEY RESULTS
THEY AREN'T BROKEN UNTIL THEY AFFECT TOURNEY RESULTS
THEY AREN'T BROKEN UNTIL THEY AFFECT TOURNEY RESULTS
No, they don't appear in even half of the matches you play. No, they don't allow a bad player to beat a good player. No, they aren't better than some non-chain grab or infinite moves like Snake's ftilt and Metaknight's Tornado. No, THEY AREN'T WINNING TOURNIES.
THEY WON'T BE BANNED UNTIL THEY AFFECT TOURNEY RESULTS
THEY WON'T BE BANNED UNTIL THEY AFFECT TOURNEY RESULTS
THEY WON'T BE BANNED UNTIL THEY AFFECT TOURNEY RESULTS
THEY WON'T BE BANNED UNTIL THEY AFFECT TOURNEY RESULTS
THEY WON'T BE BANNED UNTIL THEY AFFECT TOURNEY RESULTS
THEY WON'T BE BANNED UNTIL THEY AFFECT TOURNEY RESULTS
THEY WON'T BE BANNED UNTIL THEY AFFECT TOURNEY RESULTS
THEY WON'T BE BANNED UNTIL THEY AFFECT TOURNEY RESULTS
THEY WON'T BE BANNED UNTIL THEY AFFECT TOURNEY RESULTS
THEY AREN'T BROKEN UNTIL THEY AFFECT TOURNEY RESULTS
THEY AREN'T BROKEN UNTIL THEY AFFECT TOURNEY RESULTS
THEY AREN'T BROKEN UNTIL THEY AFFECT TOURNEY RESULTS
THEY AREN'T BROKEN UNTIL THEY AFFECT TOURNEY RESULTS
THEY AREN'T BROKEN UNTIL THEY AFFECT TOURNEY RESULTS
THEY AREN'T BROKEN UNTIL THEY AFFECT TOURNEY RESULTS
THEY AREN'T BROKEN UNTIL THEY AFFECT TOURNEY RESULTS
THEY AREN'T BROKEN UNTIL THEY AFFECT TOURNEY RESULTS
PK Hexagon
Smash Apprentice
Did someone just compare bank robbery to using a series of moves in a video game?
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
more like this:
Brawl should be a macth of two opposing forces. The one who most skillfully plays their charcter should win.
NOW I know some charcters are inferior. BUT there are enough charcters, (Snake, Metaknight, Game And Watch, Marth, ROB, Falco, Toon Link, Olimar, Pikachu, Zelda, DDD) for example, who are not only better than most of the rest of the cast, but are also close enough in ability that, barring special matchups, they can comptete fairly well against each other and, generally, the more skilled player will win.
the problem is that, with infinites, the other chracter is completely helpless. It's not a true measure of skill when one of the two oponents is unable to in any way do anything. then it is the measure of the skill of only one of the oponents.
And, maybe my example was exreme but, you get the point, saying "don't get grabbed" is like saying, "not only should you play like you normally would to win, but you should also never forget to make sure you don't let your opponent cheat"
Patsie
Smash Journeyman
I think that people who can chaingrab often don't play fully to win, to be quite honest.
I've seen people not infinite when they can.
A lot of IC tourney footage that I see involves a lot of grabs but not much infiniting. They might do it for like 2 grabs, but then they hit another direction instead.
I'm not sure why, but I would honestly not feel good about myself if I won through infinites. Maybe that's it.
manhunter098
Smash Lord
Well I think the biggest problem with banning infinites is enforcement. The issue is that its easy to enforce a stage ban. But its difficult to enforce other bans. Though thinking about it Brawl does come with replays, so if in a tournament all matches were required to have a replay, then there wouldnt really be a problem getting evidence for a player surpassing the chaingrab limit. Well thinking about my string of thought a bit more. I think that it might actually be possible to limit infinites and to enforce it, without having to have a judge sit and watch every match.
Just one question though, is there a time limit for a replay?
Just one question though, is there a time limit for a replay?
Patsie
Smash Journeyman
Haha, I like when other people get upset over two other people arguing.
Calm down, first of all.
Second, the first part is right, that's been established in this thread.
But I'm pretty sure whether something is broken occurs, definitionally, at a theory level. That determination doesn't depend on empirical results.
Just my 2 cents on that copy paste display =)
And then comes the question: Since when does it not take skill to chaingrab/infinite as DDD and the ICs? You need precise timing (at least for the ICs). Timing is also a skill.
It's not an auto-win button.
And DDD could hypothetically DK-chaingrab himself, who would be the more skilled, the player who cannot/does not chaingrab himself or the player who does? And why would they be more skilled? And why is skill so important, anyway?
If you don't CG as DDD against DK, a good comparison would be to not edgeguard as Pit or Meta-Knight. Or to not combo as Meta-Knight or to not camp as Snake. You're giving up some of the best stuff you have... for "honour".
Why is that necessarily more skillful? Why must you always take the harder road to victory in order to not be declared cheating, unskillful or unfair?
Patsie
Smash Journeyman
I kind of anticipated this argument early.
You're right, as I said in the OP, there's no definite way to enforce things.
But ask yourself this. How do we ban stalling tactics? They require the same kind of arbitrary judgment on the part of the tournament director that banning infinites would require, right? There's no brightline for when you're stalling and when you're not. Yet, the community insist that stalling tactics (stage humping with homing attack, etc), even though you can't tell exactly when a technique becomes stalling.
It's not a problem with stalling, so I don't think it would be with infinites. But I guess it has to become a big issue before anything is done.
Actually, though, how big was stalling before it was banned? Just wondering, I don't know a whole lot about the early Melee tournament scene.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
it's not how much skill it takes on your part... it's the fact that you take away the ability for the other person's skill to play a part in the match.
manhunter098
Smash Lord
Well I was wondering how long a replay lasts, is it long enough to cover an entire tournament match? If it is then enforcement really isnt a problem at all anymore, since judges can review the matches with ease.
Patsie
Smash Journeyman
Dude I would just give up. It only took me 2 posts to realize that Yuna didn't actually have anything useful to say.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
As frustrating and bullheaded as he is, I'll keep giving him a chance. I don't know if he actually believes what he is saying or if he just feels backed into a corner now so he sticks to his guns.
Regardless, I think he's wrong, but I'll keep trying.
Patsie
Smash Journeyman
Not sure, I think you can get the whole match if you have space?
I thought it just sometimes doesn't allow online replays. I really have no clue though.
I just wanted to argue that people who think (and I know you're not one of them, don't worry) that the stall rule is good can't disregard banning infinites on the condition that they can't be enforced.
Um... yeah. The same can be said about Snake camping everyone to death and then using one of his many overpowered A moves. Or Toon Link's frightening ability to outcamp everyone with projectiles. Or Pit or Falco vs. Ganondorf on Final Destination.
Some matchups are just insanely "I'm-not-letting-you-do-anything".
No match longer than 3 minutes can be saved.
The worst argument is that they can't ban it. Umm, yeah they can. They banned items and nearly every stage.
Oh, wait. The worst argument is 'don't get grabbed.' It doesn't matter how good you are, you can't completely dodge being attacked. And even if you could, it would take away from playing the game in a way that you're supposed to.
Oh, wait. The worst argument is 'don't get grabbed.' It doesn't matter how good you are, you can't completely dodge being attacked. And even if you could, it would take away from playing the game in a way that you're supposed to.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
Campy snake/TL aren't the same. the oponent can still do stuff. it's cheap, granted, but its not broken because the oponent still has lots of options.
Pit or Falco Vs. GDorf is an example of a bad matchup... it's not broken because it's a one charcter vs. another case.. it doesn't work across the board or even against most charcters. And GDorf is awful anyway, so it' not as broken when something reams him
Arturito_Burrito
Smash Master
banning stages seems kind of dumb can't snake do an infinite at every stage that isn't a walk off? shall we ban FD to avoid infinites from happening.
Patsie
Smash Journeyman
Yea, I'll give him that he actually writes things out. The majority of people (a lot of them in this thread) have decided to say "LOL UR NOT RITE PATSIE NICE POST COUNT ROFL" instead of actually contributing.
But Yuna is just a classic case of someone who refuses to admit he's wrong, and will throw up any smokescreen he can to make people think the same way.
Foxy
Smash Master
You might be able to call it broken, but if it isn't affecting tourney results, whether it's because players are too honorable to abuse it, or because it isn't all that good, or because players adapt around it, it has absolutely no basis for a ban.
I think you might not understand the magnitude and impact of bans - tourney directors do not simply throw them around to re-balance a game. It's a hell of a lot more complicated than that.
I'd like to see if I can set something straight. In this thread, are you attempting to:
1. Get chain grabs and infinites banned
or 2. Inform/convince people that chain grabs and infinites shouldn't be in the game
If your goal is #2, then fine, you're doing a great job and nobody should have anything against someone voicing their own opinion on a discussion forum.
However, if you're even touching on #1... I fear that you're making a fool of yourself. Repeating the same discussions that have taken place in countless threads like this is going to have zero influence on the ruleset. If you actually want them banned, give up on this thread and go message tourney directors to try to get something done, in the rare case that this issue hasn't been overtalked in their circles.
Just off-hand, aren't IC's chaingrabs the only ones that are actually universally infinite, barring one character (ICs)? What gives you the right to call Ganondorf so awful that it doesn't matter what wrecks him and other characters good enough to care about getting some disadvantage in the form of a chaingrab?
Foxy
Smash Master
Yes, IC chaingrabs are universally infinite, but they require different timing for every character and at a variety of percents for each of the three seperate alt grabs.
Patsie
Smash Journeyman
First, I haven't been addresssing CGs, because they end at some point and can be escaped. But whatever, that's not important.
My point in the thread is exactly what the title says. I want to know why people allow infinites to be in tournaments, especially the theoretical justifications behind why they are good for competitive play.
So far, the point I'll agree with is that it hasn't happened enough yet to make a big difference, which I'll concede. I still think, though, that theoretically they should be banned.
This isn't a plea to tournament directors. This is an argument for why I think infinites should be banned, that's all. Do I think I will change nationwide rules? No, but then again I never meant to/that's not my point.
Hope that clears it up.
Edit: I also think that the countless threads you're addressing mostly go "INFINITES ARE UNFAIR WAAAH." I haven't been a victim of an infinite more than 30% yet, so I'm not whining. I'm also trying to justify WHY I think they're bad.
A Sparknotes to my argument:
Infinites allow someone to kill another character without the other player being able to react, which makes it kind of a one-player game and is against the spirit of actual competition.
Dunno why people thought I was ranting about them being easy, but I guess my OP wasn't a fun read =P.
I also dunno how the whole 'don't get grabbed' thing caught on. My position was always that 'don't get grabbed' doesn't address whether the infinite is bad or not, but rather just tells people to avoid it. Good practical advice, but I think it skirts the issue.
Tokerella
Smash Apprentice
thanks for keepin me entertained at work today guys 
on that note..
spacing is the key! avoid getting grabbed! they never found biggie and 2pac's murderers.. but they arrest o.j. the next day! nicole simpson can't rap.. I want justice!
on that note..
spacing is the key! avoid getting grabbed! they never found biggie and 2pac's murderers.. but they arrest o.j. the next day! nicole simpson can't rap.. I want justice!
I suppose even the argument that infinites are "part of the game" doesn't even apply here because of the idea of banned stages and items. This argument didn't even apply in Melee. Wobbling was part of the game but it was banned.
That brings up an interesting thought. Wobbling was banned. The character had no way to escape it unless the IC user screwed up. Instead of giving the advice of "don't get grabbed" (which was the only way to avoid it) wobbling was banned.
...so...why doesn't this carry over?
That brings up an interesting thought. Wobbling was banned. The character had no way to escape it unless the IC user screwed up. Instead of giving the advice of "don't get grabbed" (which was the only way to avoid it) wobbling was banned.
...so...why doesn't this carry over?
Patsie
Smash Journeyman
I heard it wasn't completely banned?
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
@Pythag: Um... Wobbling was never banned.
GofG
Smash Champion
We can stop talking about "infinites" as an enormous category of tactics, because honestly if we get to the crux of the matter the only infinite that matters is the Ice Climbers infinite, as it is the only non-situational infinite besides stuff like the deathgrab on lucas and ness.
As an Ice Climber main, as a tournament-level Ice Climber, as a competitive tournament-level Brawl player, I can tell you unequivocally that the Ice Climber's alternate grabbing is not an infinite. The amount of raw timing that it takes to pull off is higher than anything else that exists in the game.
Give me a video of Void or Hylian or someone adding more than 50% to someone using nothing but alt grabs, and I'll change my mind.
EDIT: Jack, wobbling was banned occasionally in some tournaments.
As an Ice Climber main, as a tournament-level Ice Climber, as a competitive tournament-level Brawl player, I can tell you unequivocally that the Ice Climber's alternate grabbing is not an infinite. The amount of raw timing that it takes to pull off is higher than anything else that exists in the game.
Give me a video of Void or Hylian or someone adding more than 50% to someone using nothing but alt grabs, and I'll change my mind.
EDIT: Jack, wobbling was banned occasionally in some tournaments.
Highly situational. It only works if he grabs you at the ledge.
Foxy
Smash Master
Yep, that clears it up. I don't think anyone, then, should be attacking you for arguing your opinion.
Basically, to answer your original question is a more terse manner, they aren't banned in tournaments because, honestly, they are rarely used and have never been a deciding factor in the results. They're good, but even outside of tourneys a character like Snake will beat an equal skill IC player who's going for grabs. And, of course, a better player will still beat a weaker player even if the weaker player is attempting to utilize infinites.
On another note, they are not good for competitive play. Now, this seems like a no-brainer for a ban; if something hurts competition, then it can only help to get rid of it!
Here's the problem with that: there are a lot of things in Brawl that are much worse for competitive play than chain grabs and situational infinites. If we wanted to make Brawl a better competitive game, since the developers did a poor job of it, we'd start by modding it and increasing hitstun, banning Snake, banning projectile camping, forcing fair matchups... as you can see, most of these options are pretty crazy. If we aren't doing stuff like that, then banning something as trivial in comparison as situational infinites seems pretty unimportant.
Finally, Melee had a LOT more chaingrabs than Brawl, yet they didn't dominate competitive play, either (although they were definitely helpful), because Melee is a good competitive game.
Even GANONDORFFFFF had a chain grab 0-death. Check it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsNbCkzRF-s&feature=related
It's still an almost unwinnable matchup against characters who get crushed by camping.
It's a reaaaaally ba dmatchup. Also, it's OK if Ganondorf gets screwed over in a 10-0 matchup since he's sheit anyway? So if someone can infinite Yoshi, you wouldn't mind? Something is either broken or it isn't, regardless of who it's possible on.
Nowaytoeatatater
Smash Ace
I've noticed that quite a few people say that infinites are easy to perform.
They're not.
They're not.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Actually several tournaments held had banned wobbling. Mostly east coast tournaments I think.
Kayzee
Smash Journeyman
Most infinites can be avoided. Wall infinites are situational, and if you're careless enough to get caught in a wall infinite, then you deserve it.
But not universally (as in all throughout the US, SBR sanctioned, etc.). And not anymore.
Brahma
Smash Journeyman
I don't see why DDD's infinite against DK/Mario/Luigi/Samus isn't banned. It's fairly easy to tell the difference between his infinite and a chaingrab, as with his infinite he stands in place. Chainthrowing I think would be acceptable because it will be broken up by terrain (unless a wall is involved) and wouldn't be a free stock from a grab if someone has mastered the infinite.
Ulevo
Smash Master
Yuna, you previosly stated Zamus has a grab infinite on 3 characters. I attempted to search for this information and came up with nada. Could you enlighten me on this, or direct me to the thread that has this discussed?
I never said grab infinite. I said Dsmash "infinite". Her Dsmash stuns you. On a select few characters, they're stunned so much that with precise timing, she can redsmash them again and again and again and again. Some of these characters can be taken to high %s (I can't remember how high... probably high enough to KO with a smash or aerial).
Let me try and dig up the thread.
JrdnS
Smash Ace
if you dont want to get put in an infinite by DDD, and im assuming you play DK because of your avatar, choose a secondary character that cannot get chaingrabbed or "infinited" such as meta knight. and theres others. it would be stupid to go against a DDD with DK/Mario/Luigi/Samus and not expect this to happen to you. you should have more than one main anyway.
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