Infinite Marth F-air Wall

[The Halloween Captain]

Marth has a really good, kinda unpunishable Fair. ISJR (Infinite Second Jump Recover) allows a Marth player to use Fair multiple times in a row without ever needing to touch the ground. So why doesn't seem like there is even 1 Marth who mastered the ISJR timing for F-air, thus enabling him to use a safe, difficult to punish move over and over again? Is this tactic unviable in practice? Or is it just really hard to learn, and will be used more in the future?

 

[feardragon64]

The timing for the fair ISJR on Marth is pretty ridiculous. That and the increase in walling ins miniscule because, think about it, normally you fast fall so you reach the ground quicker. When ISJR'ing you're not fast falling so you're reaching the point where you ISJR later than you would have hit the ground. I think ISJR is still faster, but it's a very very minimal speed upgrade. Not really worth the difficulty in attempting it and the concentration required to do it repeatedly and suddenly be able to adapt to a situation.
Also, ISJR doesn't allow for changing the timing of the fair. When someone tries to find a moment to get into your fair wall, often times you can keep them out by delaying the fair for a quarter of a second and screwing up the timing. =b

 

[The Halloween Captain]

But what the trick does let you do is avoid being grabbed when you hit the ground. Besides, to be properly incorperating this, you shouldn't be jumping after every F-air anyway.

EDIT: yes, I know the timing is insane. What surprises me is that after the frame-perfect wave-dashing and shffling of melee, there is not even one player who incorperates this into their gameplay, once again, because it protects Marth from grabs and punishment upon landing.

 

[Fizzle]

Wavedash and l-cancel were simple in Melee once you got the hang of it. ISJR is just too much for the little reward you'll receive.

Your opponent could always just roll under you and utilt or something. Marth's weakspot is below him, so staying in the air for long periods of time isn't that great of an option. ISJR fair is a nice idea, but like anything in the game it's still punishable.

 

[OmegaXF]

ISJR is extremely hard to pull off multiple times. Especially since it has to be frame perfect which means you'll have to be at a certain height to do so and the times you get to do this is slim. There is no real reward for learning ISJR. No hits, no damage, no Lotion....

 

[Pierce7d]

Everything everyone else said, plus the fact that you'll feel really mad you didn't just stick to SHDF, and SHFFFs, coupled with dtilts to make a STRONGER wall, when you get hit, and now you are in the air without a second jump. Marth is gimpable enough as it is.

 

[3xSwords]

But what the trick does let you do is avoid being grabbed when you hit the ground. Besides, to be properly incorperating this, you shouldn't be jumping after every F-air anyway.

EDIT: yes, I know the timing is insane. What surprises me is that after the frame-perfect wave-dashing and shffling of melee, there is not even one player who incorperates this into their gameplay, once again, because it protects Marth from grabs and punishment upon landing.

This is coming from the guy that "rediscovered" ISJR. For Marth at least its just a "trick" and has no real meaning in real gameplay besides situational. You aren't linking any more attacks with this and you aren't putting yourself in an advantageous position either, so.......

And if you are wondering why nobody has yet to master ISJR, it's because it's not a button combination technique but a timing technique. Samus' superwavedash but even harder.

You can still get grabbed out of this though just very tricky for the opponent to time.... Have you never been grabbed by the likes of Yoshi, Olimar, MK or others just as you were jumping? If you happened to master ISJR you would probably avoid shield grabbing due to surprise until people start catching on

 

[Zankoku]

EDIT: yes, I know the timing is insane. What surprises me is that after the frame-perfect wave-dashing and shffling of melee, there is not even one player who incorperates this into their gameplay, once again, because it protects Marth from grabs and punishment upon landing.

lol, frame perfect? You have at least 3 frames to get a shorthop. You have around 3 more frames after that to get the air-dodge. L-Cancel window is 6 frames. Fastfall involves hitting down as you are falling.

 

[Daedatheus]

Where can I read more about the ISJR? I haven't been around lately, must have missed something.

 

[∫unk]

brawl tactical.

and the time it would take to learn this vs benefits doesn't make any sense.

with ISJR you have to do the f-air pretty much the same time every time making it easier to punish (predictable).

 

[Praxis]

Yes, they could.
They could also take Wolf and shine with frame perfect timing to be invincible through everything and thus never get hit.

Practicality is important.

 

[legion598]

marth shouldnt really spam f-air he needs to mix in several other attacks between the f-airs

 

[Shaya]

Wouldn't doing this (this is coming from a guy who probably will never be able to do it) be able to help shut down the Ice Climbers from desynching shields to grabs? It would force them to move over to their breath move.

And of course if they try to roll behind you, that's enough desyncing time to swat one away.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

At the very least, is there a vid of the F-air ISJR? It's hard to know its applications without knowing the height of the attack...

 

[OmegaXF]

Wouldn't doing this (this is coming from a guy who probably will never be able to do it) be able to help shut down the Ice Climbers from desynching shields to grabs? It would force them to move over to their breath move.

And of course if they try to roll behind you, that's enough desyncing time to swat one away.

Sure, Marth not touching the ground is pretty awesome. But the fact is that Marth won't cut it even with ISJR. He has to come within a certain height from the ground, and he has to do a FAir in a time in which it is executed and ends before he barely touches the ground, and then you must buffer a jump perfectly, ISJR happens and now you input the commands faster but in the same matter. It's not even a great wall for the fact that everything is predetermined. So after the first ISJR all the opponent has to do is run up,block and grab/or anything else he/she feels is appropiate. And then......Landing Lag. I see more Negatives than Positives.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Seriously though, I've look for Marth ISJR vids on youtube and I can't find them. I would at least like to know the height at which the Fair needs to be performed before I pass judgement on the technique.

Please post a link to an ISJR vid. It will either absolutely confirm or deny an F-air wall's usefulness once and for all.

I am really curious about what the F-air looks like in practice; but I can't even begin to practice timings without seeing it at least once.

 

[Zankoku]

It's at a slightly slower pace than a short-hop double fair, at a height that's not quite touching the ground but still clearly low enough for people to grab you. In fact, fair starting from above Marth gives him enough of a vulnerability to get grabbed before he can do another fair. Given Marth's already minor landing lag from a fair as well as his ability to actually autocancel it, I don't see how ISJR would even benefit him in theory.

 

[Steel]

This is useless.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

It's at a slightly slower pace than a short-hop double fair, at a height that's not quite touching the ground but still clearly low enough for people to grab you. In fact, fair starting from above Marth gives him enough of a vulnerability to get grabbed before he can do another fair. Given Marth's already minor landing lag from a fair as well as his ability to actually autocancel it, I don't see how ISJR would even benefit him in theory.

O.K., fine. Is there at least a vid or a "how to" or something for the Marth ISJR moves? I'm curious about the technique because it is completely unused in the metagame almost solely because of it's difficult execution. Marth seems like a character that would benefit. But it's hard to tell, as I have no idea what the moves actually look like.