In Regards To The Lack Of Melee Techniques

[Eltrotraw]

Wait what? Your view seems to be changing with every post it seems

First it's

Nintendo is most likely trying to close the gap between good players and casual players. Nintendo refuses to regonize talent in gaming.

So this first makes me think you want a Melee 2.0. Ok.

But then...

I'm sorry if I mislead people but I wish that people would read threads instead of assuming I'm whinning and crying when I'm not.

That sure doesn't go well with the topic name and that first post. At least EDIT it if that wasn't your intention.


And then you admit that the game's not Melee 2.0 - but you still want it to be apparently.

Make up your mind. The game is supposed to be different. If it were just like Melee, it'd just be the same old and someone else would find something else to gripe about.

You sound too attached to the Melee techniques to let them go, from the sound of it. There's probably a whole lot of other players in the same situation as well, but this is the case with any competitive game series. Either you adapt or stay away from it.

Or what, you wanted me to try and delve into the minds of the developers to find out why they removed such techniques? It doesn't matter at this point - what's done is done.

 

[Nintendo_lord]

Nintendo is most likely trying to close the gap between good players and casual players. Nintendo refuses to regonize talent in gaming. Because of these reasons we have no ranking system and we lost wavedashing, L Button Canceling, and many other techniques. Nintendo knew we loved these techniques but still removed them, the inclusion of these techniques would not have made the casual fans of the games upset [in a vaccum]. However, Nintendo beilves the more techniques they can remove the less competetive the game will be. Nintendo refuses to recgonize competitive gaming or talent. However there is no way Nintendo can seriously close the gap and them thinking so is sad, and newbs will get pwned online by the 0.75% of the Smash Community.

Discuss, no flames please.

I actually have a friend who plays casually and absolutely hates it when I wavedash among other things. He thinks that its a cheap way for talented players to move around quickly, so maybe Nintendo stopped the techniques because newbs would be very upset.

 

[Kio Iranez]

I actually have a friend who plays casually and absolutely hates it when I wavedash among other things. He thinks that its a cheap way for talented players to move around quickly, so maybe Nintendo stopped the techniques because newbs would be very upset.

People like that are only mad because they want to get good at a game, yet they don't want to "waste" time on it. This is such BS.

If you want a game that's so easy to master, go play something else, 'cause Smash is meant to be played whichever way you want to.

 

[kratosaurion2007]

I think one thing that a lot of people need to realize is that Nintendo doesn't have a firm grip over every game that is produced on their systems (at least not anymore).

IMO, Sakurai is the one who has been controlling the entire production of Brawl, and he intends to add everything he would believe would work in Brawl to make it a timeless game. He knows exactly what he is doing, and he wouldn't do anything to this series that would make it suck. I know if there were leaderboards and other heavy-duty online interaction that I would lose interest because I know I'm not the best and having that rubbed in my face at least one match out of 10 would make me drop any interest in playing online. And with no records being kept of wins and losses, I think Sakurai did what was right with the online playability.

The aim of any game that is created is to have fun. Not to create a vast competitive community.

 

[Kio Iranez]

I think one thing that a lot of people need to realize is that Nintendo doesn't have a firm grip over every game that is produced on their systems (at least not anymore).

IMO, Sakurai is the one who has been controlling the entire production of Brawl, and he intends to add everything he would believe would work in Brawl to make it a timeless game. I know if there were leaderboards and other heavy-duty online interaction that I would lose interest because I know I'm not the best and having that rubbed in my face at least one match out of 10 would make me drop any interest in playing online. And with no records being kept of wins and losses, I think Sakurai did what was right with the online playability.

The aim of any game that is created is to have fun. Not to create a vast competitive community.

Many people have fun playing online and proving their worth. It's fine if you don't, but don't undermine people that do.

 

[Tony_]

Nintendo is most likely trying to close the gap between good players and casual players. Nintendo refuses to regonize talent in gaming. Because of these reasons we have no ranking system and we lost wavedashing, L Button Canceling, and many other techniques. Nintendo knew we loved these techniques but still removed them, the inclusion of these techniques would not have made the casual fans of the games upset [in a vaccum]. However, Nintendo beilves the more techniques they can remove the less competetive the game will be. Nintendo refuses to recgonize competitive gaming or talent. However there is no way Nintendo can seriously close the gap and them thinking so is sad, and newbs will get pwned online by the 0.75% of the Smash Community.

Discuss, no flames please.

Smash was meant to be casual, no one saw it being a competitive game. At all.

Also, crappy copy-pasta is crappy. We've had HOW many threads like these now? =\

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Smash was meant to be casual, no one saw it being a competitive game. At all.

No, Tony.

Smash was a game that was meant to be sold and played, just like every other video game on the market. What the buyers/players do with these games is entirely up to them, man.

But I do agree with you on the redundancy thing, Tony.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Wolfgang457]

Seeing as how the TC keeps insisting this is a speculation thread, I speculate we'll see plenty of threads like this near the impending release of Smash Bros. 4.

Smash Bros. has always been an open ended game due to allowing for varying styles of play and that will be no different in brawl.

I can play against casual players and beat them and on the other side of the spectrum I don't mind getting my *** handed to me by my tourney-going friends (with or without AT's).

So in the end does it really matter?

 

[Tonic_Sonic]

QTF

Look, this thread is turning into a casual vs. comp thread and I'm not letting that happen.

ROFL! not letting that happen? i cant believe you are serious so i wont. you are a troll. anything you say is not worth responding to because this thread was obviously made in the purpose and spirit of TROLLING!

nothing in the OP is logical at ALL! it just bashes nintendo for removing some techniques that were in melee. get a clue. brawl is a new game, there will be new techniques and new types of competitive play.

congratulations on not having common sense though. oh wait thats because you are a troll, and only pretending to be an illogical idiot. no one is that stupid.

edit: ahahahahaha i also just reread the OP and u say "discuss. no flames please." ROFL! freaking hilarious. you open up flaming nintendo and then you ask for no flames. freaking brilliant.

 

[maxieman]

waaah waaah waaah waaah

 

[Spellman]

It was either remove the glitches (or exploits to those who are picky), or write up how you preform the "techniques" in the manual. "How to play the game" isn't one of the things listed in the big list of things Nintendo wants you to discover in Smash, they teach you how to play so that you can discover unlockable content and be able to compete against one another.

I might add that unless it was in the manual, it was never an official move, and we just happened to stumble upon it as a glitch. L-Cancelling may have been in both games, and may have been modified, but it was never official. It wasn't even mentioned in the official Super Smash Bros. Melee Strategy Guide.

That doesn't mean the moves are wrong to use in Melee, but holding onto the thought of those things returning is like hoping that World 1-2 in Super Mario Bros. 3 will lead you to minus world.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I do not beleive controls should ever be an issue in any game. Ever.

Obviously this is impossible for a game to accomplish without anything short of a direct interface with the brain. However, that is not an excuse for not trying as hard as possible to make games easy to control with their given interface (i.e. the controller).

Hence, with these so-called "Advanced Techniques" you are arguing the main difference between the "noobs" and the "pros" is that they know how to execute them. The game becomes less about how well you fight, and more about how well you can manipulate the controls to fight.

It's like, to take it to an extreme example, a game where you have to jump to dodge incoming obstacles. But, in order to jump you must quickly and accurately type in a given sentence. This game does not test your skill at dodging obstacles, it tests your skill at typing.

Of course, everyone enjoys being elitist. Smash Bros. is an established franchise, and the "pro" people enjoy their status at the top, with many gaining their status through mastery of the controls and are all too willing to fight tooth and nail to ensure they keep their position. The neglect of the AT means that there is now one less spastic button combo to learn before a "noob" can challenge them. Because now that "noob" can control the game just as easily as they, pullng off all the same "1337" moves.

They are scared that they will now actually have to fight for their spot based on their reaction speeds, and ability to act and react appropriatly to every situation. They are afraid they will not be able to compete on an even playing field that tests their ability to fight more then press buttons. And most of them have **** good reason to be.

Congratulations. In a sense, your logic FAILS just as hard as this thread does.

"Afraid to fight on a field based on reaction speeds and appropriate response?" I guess AT users don't understand the simple mechanics of Melee's game engine. Who would've thought that the big, bad wavedash was less complex than a well-placed jab to interrupt an attack?

Man.

That's dense, boss. Real dense. The "pros" are keenly aware of the "hows" and the "whys" of the game. Why do you think they utilize the techniques in the first place? You have to know the basics before you get into the advanced stuff; that's a given in life and in video games. And people that use ATs usually have a comprehensive knowledge of the basics, even moreso than the average n00b.

That's the way the cookie is gonna crumble in Brawl. There's going to be stuff in there that pushes the game to its boundaries. The players that want to make Brawl a tourney-viable game are going to make it happen, regardless of what the other side of the fence does. There will always be something that differentiates the good from the bad. It's the same in every competitive game out there.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Takalth]

I might add that unless it was in the manual, it was never an official move, and we just happened to stumble upon it as a glitch. L-Cancelling may have been in both games, and may have been modified, but it was never official. It wasn't even mentioned in the official Super Smash Bros. Melee Strategy Guide.

Actually, leaving advanced techniques out of the manual is a good way to appeal to all audiences. In targeting casuals, they know that every move they put in the manual will increase the apparent difficulty of learning the game.

Knowing that the highly competitive players will discover them, they can make the game simpler for casuals by not giving them a pile of techniques to read through and feel obligated to learn, while they keep the depth for competitives.

To be certain, though, could somebody who hasn't lost their manual confirm whether fast-falling, powershielding, and wall-teching, and short hopping were in it? I know that all of those are intentional techniques.
Also, I'm also pretty sure that DI isn't in the manual, and that's definitely an intentional technique as well (proof: Computer usually DI's out of Zelda's F-smash and Samus's up+B).

 

[MookieRah]

Wow, yeah, this has turned into another casual vs competitive, which is what I expected when I first saw it. I wish I could have gotten here sooner so it might not have exploded.

@The Hypnotist:
Every competitive player knows what you are saying to a certain extent. I for one was sad to hear a lot of the things go when I saw Gimpy's thread. I was hoping for more stuff to carry over, but to also add a lot of new things too, and for the most part they did. I don't think Nintendo was trying to dumb down the game though. The change in mechanics will shift the focus of the game in a different direction than Melee is all.

I think people are constantly overestimating and underestimating Sora in the making of this game. In this case we are underestimating. In regards to wavedashing being removed, I don't think it was Nintendo's intention to remove the wavedash. I site my reasoning by the fact that wave landing is definitely in Brawl. It's obvious they knew of it, and liked it enough to keep a "variation" of it in the game. However; one of the stars of Brawl is the new air dodge. There is no way to make the new air dodge work like it does, AND still have the wavedash. So Nintendo opted for a compromise, which was allow aerial attacks to transfer the momentum into a waveland.

A lot of other peculiar changes can be explained with the new options for instance tether recovery probably came about because the air dodge no longer stops momentum and it would make using the hookshot/grapple harder to use. So try looking at Brawl with that kind of mindset and it all makes sense.

@All the casual players:
Why are you so up in arms that the competitive players will miss some of the things that made the competitive scene great? Why do you care so much about how we play, yet refer to yourselves as "casual"? Why can't you guys acknowledge the skills that we have and not assume we just hide under "glitches"? I really don't understand that mindset. From my point of view, a lot of you guys simply are upset that we have taken the game so far and you feel like you need to take us down a notch or two cause of it. It's not cool at all.

For the reals, casual players need to understand this kind of stuff. You don't have to play the way we do, but you should at least respect our skill at the game. You should recognize that we aren't this stereotype of "FD NO ITEMS FOX DITTOS" and that the scene evolved from people just like yourselves. There are some things even I don't like about the tournament scene, but I understand why they are there.

Every competitive player knows what it's like to be a casual player, because we all used to be one at some point, but VERY VERY few casual players were ever competitive. Most of us understand where you guys are coming from, and if we are just acknowledged and you guys gave us the respect we deserve (I'm not asking for much here) things would be a lot nicer around here.

 

[KIngGerudo]

thank you mookie for putting things in their proper perspective. can you please close this thread before any other "discussions" erupt?

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

It was either remove the glitches (or exploits to those who are picky), or write up how you preform the "techniques" in the manual. "How to play the game" isn't one of the things listed in the big list of things Nintendo wants you to discover in Smash, they teach you how to play so that you can discover unlockable content and be able to compete against one another.

I might add that unless it was in the manual, it was never an official move, and we just happened to stumble upon it as a glitch. L-Cancelling may have been in both games, and may have been modified, but it was never official. It wasn't even mentioned in the official Super Smash Bros. Melee Strategy Guide.

That doesn't mean the moves are wrong to use in Melee, but holding onto the thought of those things returning is like hoping that World 1-2 in Super Mario Bros. 3 will lead you to minus world.

I've always been confused by the viewpoint that Nintendo tries to tell you everything about how to play their games. It's not just that they don't document everything for players, they are very intentional about leaving abilities for the players to discover. I'll even quote Sakurai on this:

"To enjoy more of the depth of special moves, try holding the button down longer to charge up attacks, rapidly pressing the button repeatedly, or tilting the Control Stick while doing the moves. You might also want to try them in midair.

Surprisingly, there’s a variety of hidden uses for many of them."
from http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/howto/basic/basic05.html

 

[Mama]

I've always been confused by the viewpoint that Nintendo tries to tell you everything about how to play their games. It's not just that they don't document everything for players, they are very intentional about leaving abilities for the players to discover. I'll even quote Sakurai on this:

"To enjoy more of the depth of special moves, try holding the button down longer to charge up attacks, rapidly pressing the button repeatedly, or tilting the Control Stick while doing the moves. You might also want to try them in midair.

Surprisingly, there’s a variety of hidden uses for many of them."
from http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/howto/basic/basic05.html

When people are faced with a video game technique that they can't get down they tend to turn to "The developers never wanted - -" as the focal point of their arguement. I wish these threads would die ... I can't wait for Brawl to finally come out to squash the whole "Nintendo wants to squash **" threads.

 

[Hellbeing]

You do realize that wavedashing and some other techniques werent meant to be?
And you do realize with that said that there will most likely be some new and different techniques?
In the demo, there were some new techniques found out already, although those ones are subject to change, it doesnt change the fact that there will most likely be some

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

You do realize that wavedashing and some other techniques werent meant to be?

But why do you point out such things? If I watched you play the game, I am 100% sure I could point out a few things that were not meant to happen.

 

[Mama]

You do realize that wavedashing and some other techniques werent meant to be?
And you do realize with that said that there will most likely be some new and different techniques?
In the demo, there were some new techniques found out already, although those ones are subject to change, it doesnt change the fact that there will most likely be some

Is that for me? I'll respond anyway.

Wave dashing is the only thing you could argue was not meant to be. That doesn't mean that it was something the developers wanted to do with. If so they would give characters the ability to waveland a lot of momentum based aerials. Only reason wavedashing is gone is do to the change in the physics engine. Everything else is something thats been in the series from the begining. Lag canceling has been in from the start.

Shffling is something that I could say was not meant to be. When the developers made the game they showed you the how to play video. It didn't include fast falling. Same as in the manual. But does that mean that it should not exist. (not saying you said that just using it as an example). These things are the result of skill and creativity. They're all things that improve the game's competitive aspect (except for wavedashing which is why so few care about its absence). They're effective more efficient ways to win.

Of course there will be new techniques. There will be unorthodox things that pros will utilize and casuals will have no idea about. (chaingrabbing is a good example). And when the new things are discovered it'll be up to the casual Smasher to decide if he wants to go pro (play to win, learn, be dedicated), scrub(know of the advanced techniques and insult them and call them cheap), or stay casual (know of the advanced techniques and not care for them).

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

What fascinates me is that apparently we are not allowed to use our brains. We are not allowed to use creativity. We must execute a preset pattern so as to satisfy the developers.

wavedashing = jumping (not a glitch), air dodging (not a glitch), sliding on the ground (not a glitch)

Nowhere in that process does the game fall outside its normal bounds. For instance, the Ice Climbers freeze glitch is a glitch because despite being a set of steps (none of which are glitches individually) it adds up to a situation outside the scope of the game. The opponent freezes completely. However, with wavedashing, nothing out of the ordinary happens. To call wavedashing "cheap" is to label all combos of any kind "cheap".

 

[Mama]

What fascinates me is that apparently we are not allowed to use our brains. We are not allowed to use creativity. We must execute a preset pattern so as to satisfy the developers.

wavedashing = jumping (not a glitch), air dodging (not a glitch), sliding on the ground (not a glitch)

Nowhere in that process does the game fall outside its normal bounds. For instance, the Ice Climbers freeze glitch is a glitch because despite being a set of steps (none of which are glitches individually) it adds up to a situation outside the scope of the game. The opponent freezes completely. However, with wavedashing, nothing out of the ordinary happens. To call wavedashing "cheap" is to label all combos of any kind "cheap".

What fascinates me even more is people still think the developers are a bunch of big bad competitive player haters. (not talking about you though). But there are people that think just like that. We shouldn't be allowed to use are ability as human beings to solve problems. We can't think of new ways of doing things. There was a thread a little while ago where some guy said that he felt he shouldn't have to work to have his character do what he wanted....

 

[Johnknight1]

Okay, WHO CARES IF IT WAS MEANT OR NOT=??? WHO HONESTLY GIVES A F** IF THE GAME IS BEING REALISTIC=??? How often does a man in a skirt, a puffball, a yellow electric rat, and a talking space fox talk in real life=???

This thread fails harden then any of the sandman's threads!

 

[Sliq]

I want to start of by saying I agree 100% with MookieRah.

People are upset about the removal of certain AT because they are removing options from the game, and are thereby removing depth. They are imagining Melee without either of these tactics, and how unappealing competitive play would be without them.

This is unfair, however, because new AT may be implemented, more then likely not purposefully by the designers. Then people will complain about these and how they are cheap and unfair. This is the circle of life.

I personally believe that WD'ing was either purposefully removed by changing the air dodge physics, the development team just decided to alter this physic just to make it new, or they changed it so people won't accidentally kill themselves by air dodging (like when you miss a tech, bounce off of the stage, and then air dodge). I would like to think it is the 3rd option, because option 2 is a stupid reason, and because the removal of WD'ing doesn't help anyone, it only hurts.

One of the things that I hate is the new auto-snap that happens with the up b's and tether recovery (but, thanks to MookieRah, I at least see where they are coming from on the tether). I only say this because it seems to remove skill from the recovery equation. Now you don't have to think about sweet spotting, it is done for you. However, I'm sure new edge guarding techniques will emerge.

Edge guarding is one of the things that separated Melee from other fighting games (among other things). It wasn't just stamina that drained with each hit. There was a whole new element that edge guarding brought, and I just hope that this new system doesn't reduce the importance of edge guarding.

 

[Bajef8]

Game isn't anywhere near as popular and metagame isn't nearly as competitive or deep. Seriously, what's another reason there's no ranking system? Why would they remove things that people loved that didn't hurt anyone (if you give the "it's a new game arguement" I might as well say no items should return, yeah it's a hyperbole...)?

how do you know an online raning system won't be implemented? the game still has 3 and a half months before release. and also wasn't the game delayed? maybe they are using the extra time to create an online ranking system (along with perfecting the actual game itself).

 

[Bajef8]

i think thats wavedashing, L canceling, etc... were glitches and that sakurai removed them so his game could be played the way it was meant to be played.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I think you read too deeply into the no ranking thing. There could be a million reasons. Maybe they looked at Mario Strikers Charged and decided it was not worth it. When I play online, I prefer playing with people I know anyway. Why delay the game further for a worthless feature? Honestly, stop analyzing it so much.

 

[Takeshi245]

how do you know an online raning system won't be implemented? the game still has 3 and a half months before release. and also wasn't the game delayed? maybe they are using the extra time to create an online ranking system (along with perfecting the actual game itself).

Sakurai said himself that there is no ranking system for Brawl because he believes that it would be more fun this way. Doesn't really matter anyways since there's friend codes. To all the people whining about wavedashing, please grow up. It's not broken and you can still suck even if you waveshine. It's how you use it that matters. If you can't beat someone that wavedashes in Melee, you're just not good enough. Even with wavedashing gone, competitive players will still beat you. There's more we use to beat opponents anyways. Believe me, I know. The Hypnosist, I suggest that you would get over the whole advanced techniques out in Melee and look forward to new ones. Sure, I believe that Brawl wouldn't have as much depth as Melee, but it'll be good enough.

 

[Kyle29]

game tallent??? Dude I have to say... get a life.

 

[Bajef8]

I want to start of by saying I agree 100% with MookieRah.

People are upset about the removal of certain AT because they are removing options from the game, and are thereby removing depth. They are imagining Melee without either of these tactics, and how unappealing competitive play would be without them.

This is unfair, however, because new AT may be implemented, more then likely not purposefully by the designers. Then people will complain about these and how they are cheap and unfair. This is the circle of life.

I personally believe that WD'ing was either purposefully removed by changing the air dodge physics, the development team just decided to alter this physic just to make it new, or they changed it so people won't accidentally kill themselves by air dodging (like when you miss a tech, bounce off of the stage, and then air dodge). I would like to think it is the 3rd option, because option 2 is a stupid reason, and because the removal of WD'ing doesn't help anyone, it only hurts.

One of the things that I hate is the new auto-snap that happens with the up b's and tether recovery (but, thanks to MookieRah, I at least see where they are coming from on the tether). I only say this because it seems to remove skill from the recovery equation. Now you don't have to think about sweet spotting, it is done for you. However, I'm sure new edge guarding techniques will emerge.

Edge guarding is one of the things that separated Melee from other fighting games (among other things). It wasn't just stamina that drained with each hit. There was a whole new element that edge guarding brought, and I just hope that this new system doesn't reduce the importance of edge guarding.

i disagree with you. i think sakurai's team of smash vets notcied wavedashing... and they didn't like it. so that is probably why they made air-dodges unable to be pushed into a certain direction. i think the new stationary air-dodges were made so wavedashing couldn't be used. and how does it only hurt and not help? it will help n00bs online to be able to actually stand a small chance of winning. they wanted a beginner to go online and not just get wavedashed all over by someone who could wavedash. just because it doesn't help all the advanced players out doesn't mean it doesn't helps n00bs.

PS: i don't think wavedashing was removed because of online.

 

[Bajef8]

I think you read too deeply into the no ranking thing. There could be a million reasons. Maybe they looked at Mario Strikers Charged and decided it was not worth it. When I play online, I prefer playing with people I know anyway. Why delay the game further for a worthless feature? Honestly, stop analyzing it so much.

didn't you see the words in parentheses? i was suggesting to him that they might try to make a ranking system since they have so much extra time now, not saying it was delayed because they wanted a ranking system.

 

[Bajef8]

Sakurai said himself that there is no ranking system for Brawl because he believes that it would be more fun this way. Doesn't really matter anyways since there's friend codes. To all the people whining about wavedashing, please grow up. It's not broken and you can still suck even if you waveshine. It's how you use it that matters. If you can't beat someone that wavedashes in Melee, you're just not good enough. Even with wavedashing gone, competitive players will still beat you. There's more we use to beat opponents anyways. Believe me, I know. The Hypnosist, I suggest that you would get over the whole advanced techniques out in Melee and look forward to new ones. Sure, I believe that Brawl wouldn't have as much depth as Melee, but it'll be good enough.

yeah you're right about friend codes. SWF will probably find a way to make sure all the people here can trade wii numbers so they can play each other.

 

[Takeshi245]

yeah you're right about friend codes. SWF will probably find a way to make sure all the people here can trade wii numbers so they can play each other.

That's definite. And stop posting so much!! It's getting ridiculous and making a game more shallow wouldn't help a game. Only a fool would think that.

 

[Seikishidan Soru]

What's this "way the game was meant to be played" nonsense, seriously...

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

game tallent??? Dude I have to say... get a life.

By posting on an internet message board, you abandon your right to tell anyone to get a life, sorry.

 

[Bajef8]

That's definite. And stop posting so much!! It's getting ridiculous and making a game more shallow wouldn't help a game. Only a fool would think that.

i was saying that it would make brawl more playable to n00bs. so they could play it a little easier (just a little against a deadly player) online.

and i'm done posting a million times in a row now, i promise .

 

[Takeshi245]

i was saying that it would make brawl more playable to n00bs. so they could play it a little easier (just a little against a deadly player) online.

and i'm done posting a million times in a row now, i promise .

Noobs will still be torn to shreds anyways. My point still stands.

 

[maxieman]

wow a double and triple post in the same topic in the same day within 15 minutes...

We need a picture for this

 

[Sandwich]

Wow.
After reading this thread, I thought I had accidently logged into Usenet for a sec.

Why can't we all just get along?

 

[Bajef8]

Noobs will still be torn to shreds anyways. My point still stands.

yes, but won't be torn to shreds as fast since wavedashing would give the better players more speed and options in destroying the n00b being played.

that being said, my point still stands as well.